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Snape and Lily: Joint Character Analysis v.3



View Poll Results: Did Snape take Lily's concerns about his Slytherin friends seriously?
Yes, he just covered it up because he had no choice. I blame the sorting. 19 6.91%
Partly. He seemed to have been convinced that he was right and Lily wasn't. 68 24.73%
No, his (re)actions show that he did not listen to her. He was too busy being jealous of James. 119 43.27%
He became a Death Eater to impress Lily, which shows that he misjudged her character severely. 36 13.09%
I disagree with all options and will explain my opinion in a post. 13 4.73%
I think this poll should have a pony option. 20 7.27%
Voters: 275. You may not vote on this poll

 
 
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  #81  
Old July 26th, 2008, 1:27 pm
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Re: Snape and Lily: Joint Character Analysis v.3

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Originally Posted by ComicBookWorm View Post
What could she have been expected to do--start a hex fight with James and Sirius? Shoot first and ask questions later? She did what would be expected--try to get them to stop. And then Snape insulted her with the worst insult possible, while she was trying to help him.
She did not start anything because she, by that time did not care either about Snape or the friendship was the point I was trying to make. Lily was not a friend in the SWM was what I was trying to say in my previous posts. And I certainly don't hold it against her; she was not Snape's mother that she had to keep trying. There was no obligation for her and on her part to keep a friendship she did not want.

IMO by the SWM Lily had moved so far away from Snape, so much that the friendship was only on paper.

Snape after the DADA exam comes out all alone and sits all by himself. That is also an indication all was not well with the 2 previously best friends IMO.

Which also I don't hold against her BTW.

Quote:
They were friends for five or six years. How long was she supposed to put with it? Again, this seems to blame Lily for Snape's bad choices.
Of course she need not put up with it. And she did not either IMO. And I don't think I am blaming Lily for Snape's bad choices.

All I am saying is

1) Snape and Lily were very good friends for 6 years.

2) Lily IMO certainly was not trying to keep Snape on the good side for all the 6 years.

3) I think Lily was very much aware of Snape's dark arts obssession and was pretty much okay with it, because he was only reading, not practising. We NEVER see Lily accuse Snape of practising the dark arts.

4) She moved away from Snape starting around the werewolf incident and broke away after the SWM.

5 She was until then really, really good friends with Snape.

6) There was no other best friend mentioned in the books for Lily after Snape IMO. So, I also think his place was not filled once Lily broke off with Snape.

Quote:
Originally Posted by wickedwickedboy View Post
Oh, I misinterpreted your words then. What did you mean? You know there used to be a theory that Lily was a Death Eater. JKR addressed this question on her website: Was Lily a Death Eater? Her only response was: "How Dare You!"
I certainly did not say Lily was a death eater. Where did I say or imply that? Snape was attracted to the dark arts; there are criminal layerws who take that up as a profession, because crime fascinates them; they are not evil. Reading about the dark arts does not make one evil. To show a person is good I don;t think they should make a show of shunning the dark arts openly.

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I agree, however, I had forgotten it had happened sometime before. If he is sitting there looking and acting just fine, why would she ask him if he was okay?
I respectfully disagree with you on this. IMO the way Lily acted was not that of a friend, let alone a best friend. If someone had a close shave with death, I think their family and friends would first check them out for any injuries and then ask them if they are okay.

Lily on the other hand, was moving away from Snape. So she did not even bother to call on Snape and ask him if he was okay after the werewolf incident, which she would have had she beena friend at that time.

Not only she does not bother to see if Snape was alright on her own, she also never asks after him, when she see him in the memory we saw IMO.


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  #82  
Old July 26th, 2008, 4:06 pm
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Re: Snape and Lily: Joint Character Analysis v.3

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Originally Posted by The_Green_Woods View Post
3) I think Lily was very much aware of Snape's dark arts obssession and was pretty much okay with it, because he was only reading, not practising. We NEVER see Lily accuse Snape of practising the dark arts.
This goes back to the fact that we didn't get to see every moment of their friendship. She did tell him that was Avery and Mulciber did was evil. And it seems very likely that they used some Dark Magic on Mary because why else would she describe it as evil. So I don't think she was ok with it.

We'll go back to that boyfriend I had that was getting deeper and deeper into drugs. I was not ok with it and kept after him to give it up. I felt like I was the only decent person he knew, but eventually I had to give it since it threatened to pull me in.

JKR told us that Lily might have become romantically interested in Snape had he not been involved with the Dark Arts. I would think that would be enough to tell us that Lily wasn't ok with Snape's involvement with the Dark Arts.


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  #83  
Old July 26th, 2008, 5:12 pm
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Re: Snape and Lily: Joint Character Analysis v.3

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Originally Posted by ComicBookWorm View Post
This goes back to the fact that we didn't get to see every moment of their friendship. She did tell him that was Avery and Mulciber did was evil. And it seems very likely that they used some Dark Magic on Mary because why else would she describe it as evil. So I don't think she was ok with it.
I agree, we don't get to see a lot of the friendship. I make my point on only one thing.

Lily and Snape were friends for 6 years. They met before Lily got her letter, perhaps when they were 9 or 10; they broke up when they were 15.

They were also together all the time, and Snape came to the school knowing more about curses and stuff, than 7th years.

All this is canon IMO.

I am assuming that Snape did not start reading the dark arts only in his fifth year. I think Snape was into reading almost everything there was at his home and I think that's where he got the dark arts books. The Snapes don't seem to be able to afford buying books. In Hogwarts, I don't know if there were books on dark arts and if Snape could access them. If there were books, they would most likely be in the restricted section, and Snape without invisibility cloaks would not IMO be able to access them.

This brings another theory. If Snape as I think he did, got his books on the dark arts from his home, then did Eileen Snape read them as well? How did he get books on the dark arts anyway?

Okay, since I assumed he was into reading about all kinds of magic, I thought Lily would also automatically know about them. She seems to know everything (even about Avery and Mulciber).

She was not okay with the use of dark magic. I never said so.

I said she was okay with reading about it. That was why I gave the example of a criminal lawyer or people who love to see ghost movies or read gory stuff. By itself it does not make them good, bad or evil. It may harm them when they try to experiment in crime, ghosts or anything.

Like wise I really don't think it wrong or think it makes Lily look bad just because she was okay with Snape reading about the dark arts. That does not mean, she would be okay with him practising it. That was what I said and this is what I meant. It would also be okay, if like Hermione would have, Lily too, would read along with Snape about the dark arts. I in fact think she did. And I think reading about dark arts does not make anyone evil, not Snape, not Lily IMO.

Quote:
We'll go back to that boyfriend I had that was getting deeper and deeper into drugs. I was not ok with it and kept after him to give it up. I felt like I was the only decent person he knew, but eventually I had to give it since it threatened to pull me in.
I agree with this as well. Lily was under no obligation to keep a friendship she did not want, for any reason, and we saw she did break it.

What I am trying to say is that just because she broke it citing her "Inner Eye" that Snape would surely become a DE (she was right as well I suppose) some 2 years into the future, it did not make Snape as a dark arts practitioner. Because he did not practise the dark arts in School. That is not canon IMO.

Quote:
JKR told us that Lily might have become romantically interested in Snape had he not been involved with the Dark Arts. I would think that would be enough to tell us that Lily wasn't ok with Snape's involvement with the Dark Arts.
I saw the intense look and resultant blush as an evidence of Lily's knowledge of Snape's feelings.

I also think Lily could not handle it and this could also be another reason she decided to move away from Snape, because she had or was falling in love with James and she could not give what Snape was hoping she would give him IMO.


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  #84  
Old July 26th, 2008, 5:36 pm
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Re: Snape and Lily: Joint Character Analysis v.3

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Originally Posted by The_Green_Woods View Post
I certainly did not say Lily was a death eater. Where did I say or imply that?
You didn't . I was just telling you something funny JKR had said on the topic.

Quote:
Snape was attracted to the dark arts; there are criminal layerws who take that up as a profession, because crime fascinates them; they are not evil. Reading about the dark arts does not make one evil. To show a person is good I don;t think they should make a show of shunning the dark arts openly.
I feel this is distinctive. Criminal lawyers, attempting to understand the criminal mind in order to defend their prosecution and convince a jury, will study and/or learn about criminal behavior from experts. However, I feel Snape's purpose was evident enough to Lily that she did not see Snape's fascination as a good thing. That is, Snape was not studying them to enlarge his academic scope or in order to fight against them in her eyes (find defenses for them) or I feel she would have been fine with it - even encouraged him. However, as JKR said, Lily didn't see her friendship with Snape becoming anything more due to his being drawn to loathsome dark arts friends and acts. Note, JKR indicated that Lily found the things Snape was drawn to in relation to the dark arts loathsome, that means she was averse to them, imo, based on what she felt the purpose was behind Snape's fascination.

I agree with you that to show someone is good they do not have to openly shun the dark arts and that whole way of thinking. However, in the case of Snape, he openly called other's Mudblood, and blood purism is largely what Voldemort's evil regime rested upon. Additionally, Snape invented dark curses and practiced them (Sectumsempra was his favorite - DH/Fallen Warrior; he knew more dark curses than many 7th years coming in - GoF; and shown in SWM, aimo). JKR also indicated that Snape was planning to join Voldemort as he wished to be an impressive person and he believed it would impress Lily. Lily accused him of this in DH-TPT, so apparently Snape's acts and behavior led her to believe what JKR said was true. Thus, in my judgment, Snape was openly showing than he embraced the dark arts, rather than merely studying them for academic or defensive purposes.

Quote:
Lily on the other hand, was moving away from Snape. So she did not even bother to call on Snape and ask him if he was okay after the werewolf incident, which she would have had she beena friend at that time.
While I would not be able to agree that Lily didn't ask Snape how he was since we came in on the middle of a conversation; I would agree that at the time of that conversation the friendship was deeply on the rocks. I also agree that by SWM it was all but non existent as she didn't speak to Snape at all throughout the entire scene until he called her a filthy little Mudblood and she told him off.

Quote:
Not only she does not bother to see if Snape was alright on her own, she also never asks after him, when she see him in the memory we saw IMO.
Well to be fair, whoever told Lily the story likely told her that James had saved Snape prior to his coming to any harm. She didn't indicate that Snape had been saved from fighting a monster, only that he'd seen what was down there and was rescued from it harming him (DH TPT).


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Last edited by wickedwickedboy; July 26th, 2008 at 5:39 pm.
  #85  
Old July 26th, 2008, 6:41 pm
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Re: Snape and Lily: Joint Character Analysis v.3

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Originally Posted by wickedwickedboy View Post
You didn't . I was just telling you something funny JKR had said on the topic.
Than I am sorry I misunderstood your comment wicked! I was searching in my memory, just where I had implied or said anything that could be construed this way.

Quote:
I feel this is distinctive. Criminal lawyers, attempting to understand the criminal mind in order to defend their prosecution and convince a jury, will study and/or learn about criminal behavior from experts.
Correct! That is in the muggle world. In the WW, there is no evidence there are places for Higher studies or specialization in a particular trade or craft. I really don't know how it is done and from where people specialize in a particular subject, even the Professors at Hogwarts.

I think they kind of do it on their own or on the job. Which means Snape trying to learn Potions and become an expert at it would try all on his own and learn as he went along IMO.

Quote:
However, I feel Snape's purpose was evident enough to Lily that she did not see Snape's fascination as a good thing. That is, Snape was not studying them to enlarge his academic scope or in order to fight against them in her eyes (find defenses for them) or I feel she would have been fine with it - even encouraged him. However, as JKR said, Lily didn't see her friendship with Snape becoming anything more due to his being drawn to loathsome dark arts friends and acts. Note, JKR indicated that Lily found the things Snape was drawn to in relation to the dark arts loathsome, that means she was averse to them, imo, based on what she felt the purpose was behind Snape's fascination.
I think Lily did not see the dark arts as an evil thing; she saw its practise as evil and she throughly disliked Snape's friendship with Avery and Mulciber. That is the only thing we see in canon and she says she is sure that Snape will be a DE. We don't read anything about her aversion to reading the dark arts (not to its practise, please note).

All other things are not canon. Have we anywhere in the books where Lily said she did not like the dark arts, their use and Snape's fascination for them? I just cannot remember.

Quote:
I agree with you that to show someone is good they do not have to openly shun the dark arts and that whole way of thinking. However, in the case of Snape, he openly called other's Mudblood, and blood purism is largely what Voldemort's evil regime rested upon.
When Snape called her a Mudblood, the friendship was all but over. That did not influence Lily to end the friendship IMO.

Quote:
Additionally, Snape invented dark curses and practiced them (Sectumsempra was his favorite - DH/Fallen Warrior; he knew more dark curses than many 7th years coming in - GoF; and shown in SWM, aimo). JKR also indicated that Snape was planning to join Voldemort as he wished to be an impressive person and he believed it would impress Lily. Lily accused him of this in DH-TPT, so apparently Snape's acts and behavior led her to believe what JKR said was true. Thus, in my judgment, Snape was openly showing than he embraced the dark arts, rather than merely studying them for academic or defensive purposes.
Again that does not make him bad or evil; the man who invented the AK may have been a good man; the man who invented the crucio could have never cast a spell to harm others, that cannot be IMO a criteria to judge a person.

That Snape was planning to join Voldemort was very much in the future. Even Lily says so; she says that Snape can't wait to leave school before joining Voldemort, but where does she say that Snape was practising the dark arts and that she had been fighting with him because of that?

Quote:
While I would not be able to agree that Lily didn't ask Snape how he was since we came in on the middle of a conversation; I would agree that at the time of that conversation the friendship was deeply on the rocks. I also agree that by SWM it was all but non existent as she didn't speak to Snape at all throughout the entire scene until he called her a filthy little Mudblood and she told him off.
While we came in the middle of a conversation, the conversation about the memory was started only afetr we came in. That was the time Lily started off about the werewolf incident saying Snape was ungrateful; that she had heard what had happened the other night.

She never asked Snape how he was and nor did she ask him how he entered the tunnel and who told him the way IMO. Those are natural quuestions friends ask. Lily never did. That was why I felt that the friendship started breaking after the werewolf memory, when Lily "heard" about the rescue and started falling for James.

And by the SWM it was all over IMO.

Quote:
Well to be fair, whoever told Lily the story likely told her that James had saved Snape prior to his coming to any harm. She didn't indicate that Snape had been saved from fighting a monster, only that he'd seen what was down there and was rescued from it harming him (DH TPT).
Who could have told her? Dumbledore, Sirius, Remus, Peter, James and Snape were the only ones who knew about it, and they were forbidden to talk about it.

Snape, never told her, because Snape tries to speak about the incident in the memory which happened sometime later than the incident itself. So it had to be Dumbledore or one of the Marauders IMO.


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Spotlight on Snape and Molly

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  #86  
Old July 26th, 2008, 8:12 pm
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Re: Snape and Lily: Joint Character Analysis v.3

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Originally Posted by The_Green_Woods View Post
Than I am sorry I misunderstood your comment wicked! I was searching in my memory, just where I had implied or said anything that could be construed this way.
No worries.

Quote:
I think Lily did not see the dark arts as an evil thing; she saw its practise as evil and she throughly disliked Snape's friendship with Avery and Mulciber. That is the only thing we see in canon and she says she is sure that Snape will be a DE. We don't read anything about her aversion to reading the dark arts (not to its practise, please note).
I respect your view, but based on my interpretation of canon, Lily despised the dark arts.

Quote:
That Snape was planning to join Voldemort was very much in the future. Even Lily says so; she says that Snape can't wait to leave school before joining Voldemort, but where does she say that Snape was practising the dark arts and that she had been fighting with him because of that?
I am afraid that is a misquotation of the canon. Lily does not say Snape can't "wait to leave school" to join, she says "he can't wait to join" as in the present (DH TPT). It was my opinion that if she felt he could not wait to join, then she had a basis for that belief - in my judgment that was Snape's actions and behavior, his viewpoint and outlook as she knew it from being his friend.

Quote:
Who could have told her? Dumbledore, Sirius, Remus, Peter, James and Snape were the only ones who knew about it, and they were forbidden to talk about it.

Snape, never told her, because Snape tries to speak about the incident in the memory which happened sometime later than the incident itself. So it had to be Dumbledore or one of the Marauders IMO.
I respect your view, but in my opinion, that is a huge assumption. Snape may have told Mulciber and he told another Slytherin who told a Ravenclaw, who told a Gryffindor, who told Lily. James may have told Peter who let it slip to others and eventually Lily heard. All of that is as plausible as the guess you have made in my judgment - and there are 100's of other scenarios. I don't think we can make a definitive determination as to how Lily found out; rumors spread, that is normal in a school setting. It doesn't make sense for any of the Marauders to have spoken about it; they did not want to have people speculating on what was in the tunnel - it could expose their friend and more importantly, expose what their moonlight wanderings in the evenings were all about.


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Old July 26th, 2008, 11:17 pm
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Re: Snape and Lily: Joint Character Analysis v.3

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Originally Posted by The_Green_Woods View Post
Snape, never told her, because Snape tries to speak about the incident in the memory which happened sometime later than the incident itself. So it had to be Dumbledore or one of the Marauders IMO.
To quote Dumbledore from PS/SS "What happened down in the dungeons between you and Professor Quirrel is a complete secret, so, naturally, the whole school knows." That seemed an even better case for being able to keep the entire thing hush-hush. Apparently, only Dumbledore, Harry and Quirrel should have known. Quirrel was dead and Harry had just awoken from his 3 day coma. Things like that just seem to spread in a school.

Quote:
Originally Posted by The_Green_Woods View Post
When Snape called her a Mudblood, the friendship was all but over. That did not influence Lily to end the friendship IMO.
I think that it did influence Lily. I think it was the last straw. I think that before, Lily could always convince herself into thinking that Snape might change. As long as he was friends with her, that showed her that he wasn't a full-blown muggle hater. That he can see at least one muggleborn as worthy. And where he might see one as worthy, he might see others.

In my opinion, when Snape called Lily a Mudblood, she came to think of him as a lost cause. Instead of him getting "better" (better meaning not hating people like her simply because of an accident of birth), he was regressing.

DH, The Prince's Tale
"I never meant to call you a Mudblood, it just---"
"Slipped out?" There was no pity in Lily's voice. "It's too late. I've made excuses for you for years. None of my friends can understand why I even talk to you. You and your precious little Death Eater friends - you see, you don't even deny it!"


To me, this reads that Lily now thinks that Snape has considered her a Mudblood for a while, but had just kept it to himself. This time, when he was angry, his true opinion of her "slipped out" (this is what I think she is thinking not necessarily that it was true of Snape). I think she had been telling her friends that Snape wasn't like the others and using the fact that he was friends with her as proof. He didn't consider her a Mudblood, so he wasn't like Avery and Mulciber. That he was capable of change. Once he did call her a Mudblood, I think she became convinced that she had been wrong all along.

To me, I think that Lily was justified in dropping the friendship. It wasn't like she liked cats and he liked dogs. It wasn't a matter of opinions they differed on. Death Eaters hate muggleborns and she is a muggleborn. They target muggleborns. They harm, torture and kill muggleborns. She can't change the fact that she is muggleborn. She doesn't think that she's done anything wrong by just being muggleborn. So, I think it's pretty tough to be friends with somebody who she thinks hates muggleborns. Now, I don't think that Snape was a DE at that point or that he hates her (and I've actually never detected him being mean to muggleborns. Dean appeared to have been a muggleborn and I don't recall him being especially mean to him (it turns out he was not muggleborn, but Snape wouldn't have known that)), but I think that after he calls her a Mudblood, given all that has gone on before, she just isn't willing to work at the friendship anymore. And I agree that the relationship was already pretty fractured by this point.

I'm not even sure that Snape ever did consider her a Mudblood (obviously, he knew she was a muggleborn, but there is a difference between thinking of somebody as a muggleborn and thinking of them as a Mudblood, IMO). I think that he was angry and hurt at that time and he just thought up the biggest insult he could think of at the time. Unfortunately, given what they had been arguing about, that was the worst thing he could call her. And that was that.


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Last edited by wingardium713; July 26th, 2008 at 11:20 pm.
  #88  
Old July 26th, 2008, 11:59 pm
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Re: Snape and Lily: Joint Character Analysis v.3

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Originally Posted by wingardium713 View Post
I'm not even sure that Snape ever did consider her a Mudblood (obviously, he knew she was a muggleborn, but there is a difference between thinking of somebody as a muggleborn and thinking of them as a Mudblood, IMO). I think that he was angry and hurt at that time and he just thought up the biggest insult he could think of at the time. Unfortunately, given what they had been arguing about, that was the worst thing he could call her. And that was that.
I agree, but from Lily's viewpoint this issue went much deeper because it wasn't just Snape - others were calling her Mudblood too. The thing is, while her friends and even acquaintances would tell her that it didn't matter and that those with a blood purist attitude were wrong, she'd still feel bad. Constantly being called a racial slur or hearing others of your birth called one can make a person very hurt and a little bitter. And the situation has another aspect as well. I had a friend who was called a racial slur and what made me angry was how it made my friend feel in addition to being angry at the person who said it. Being the person I was back then, I immediately punched the guy who said it in the nose and started a brawl - very wrong I know - but my point is, afterward, my friend was not only upset at having been called a racial slur, but also because he hadn't wanted a brawl to start as a result of it. He hated that it made us (his friends) upset as well, so I didn't repeat that behavior, but he still knew that it was making us as upset as it was him.

So Snape using the slur was not just horrible to Lily because he was saying it about her; as she pointed out, she was upset because he said it to others as well because they all felt just like her when he said it. Additionally, all the people who tried to make her feel better after she was called one (by Snape and others) and defended her like Harry and Ron did for Hermione, well I'd imagine she'd feel bad that they had to be involved also - and to make matters worse; Snape and his friends called the purebloods among those people Blood Traitors, just for holding Lily and other muggleborns as equals.


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  #89  
Old July 27th, 2008, 1:24 am
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Re: Snape and Lily: Joint Character Analysis v.3

Quote:
Originally Posted by wickedwickedboy View Post
I agree, but from Lily's viewpoint this issue went much deeper because it wasn't just Snape - others were calling her Mudblood too. The thing is, while her friends and even acquaintances would tell her that it didn't matter and that those with a blood purist attitude were wrong, she'd still feel bad. Constantly being called a racial slur or hearing others of your birth called one can make a person very hurt and a little bitter. And the situation has another aspect as well. I had a friend who was called a racial slur and what made me angry was how it made my friend feel in addition to being angry at the person who said it. Being the person I was back then, I immediately punched the guy who said it in the nose and started a brawl - very wrong I know - but my point is, afterward, my friend was not only upset at having been called a racial slur, but also because he hadn't wanted a brawl to start as a result of it. He hated that it made us (his friends) upset as well, so I didn't repeat that behavior, but he still knew that it was making us as upset as it was him.

So Snape using the slur was not just horrible to Lily because he was saying it about her; as she pointed out, she was upset because he said it to others as well because they all felt just like her when he said it. Additionally, all the people who tried to make her feel better after she was called one (by Snape and others) and defended her like Harry and Ron did for Hermione, well I'd imagine she'd feel bad that they had to be involved also - and to make matters worse; Snape and his friends called the purebloods among those people Blood Traitors, just for holding Lily and other muggleborns as equals.
I do agree that the reason Lily was so angry with Snape was partially because she didn't like how he was using a racial slur against other people as well, and then using it at her just made it even worse. I personally think that one of the biggest reasons, besides him calling her something like that, is that I think Lily put most of her trust in Snape, because he was one of her best friends, and it was kind of like he didn't think about what he was doing, and threw away her trust in him that he really was a good person and would never hurt her. I think that Lily trusted Snape on a very high authority, and having a best friends call you something like that wasn't friendship in Lily's book.
As for Snape, I think that he didn't mean to call her something like that so insultingly. I think that his friends (if you can call them that- Death Eaters) had a bad influence on him, and that the word was so common for them in their everyday language that I don't think he realized what an impact it would have on Lily's and his friendship. I'm not trying to justify what he did, or say that he wasn't wrong in doing so, but I do think that it wasn't entirely his fault, even though he shouldn't have been hanging around with that kind of crowd. I think those were probably the only people he could find around him that would accept him in any way besides what Lily did for him, that he took the chance by being around them, and ended up making one of the not so great decisions in his life.


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Old July 27th, 2008, 5:03 am
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Re: Snape and Lily: Joint Character Analysis v.3

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Originally Posted by AliceLongbottom View Post
As for Snape, I think that he didn't mean to call her something like that so insultingly. I think that his friends (if you can call them that- Death Eaters) had a bad influence on him, and that the word was so common for them in their everyday language that I don't think he realized what an impact it would have on Lily's and his friendship. I'm not trying to justify what he did, or say that he wasn't wrong in doing so, but I do think that it wasn't entirely his fault,
A person makes a series of decisions and choices in life and they are completely responsible for them, in my judgment (unless they are medically determined to be mentally imparied and incapable of making a choice). Everyone is influenced, some people influence you more than others depending on the level of respect you have for them and like factors. But allowing someone to influence you is also a choice and so that is taken into consideration during one's deliberations that lead to his or her "choice". So I would respectfully disagree that Snape's calling Lily a Mudblood was not entirely his fault. I feel it could only be his alone because he made the choice to say it - and anything and everything he allowed to influence him into making that choice - was also a choice he made, imo.


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  #91  
Old July 27th, 2008, 1:30 pm
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Re: Snape and Lily: Joint Character Analysis v.3

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I respect your view, but in my opinion, that is a huge assumption. Snape may have told Mulciber and he told another Slytherin who told a Ravenclaw, who told a Gryffindor, who told Lily. James may have told Peter who let it slip to others and eventually Lily heard. All of that is as plausible as the guess you have made in my judgment - and there are 100's of other scenarios. I don't think we can make a definitive determination as to how Lily found out; rumors spread, that is normal in a school setting. It doesn't make sense for any of the Marauders to have spoken about it; they did not want to have people speculating on what was in the tunnel - it could expose their friend and more importantly, expose what their moonlight wanderings in the evenings were all about.
What you said could have happened, but if that had, then Remus being a werewolf would not have been news in Harry's thrid year IMO. The whole School would have come to know about the monster and that it was Remus and Snape revealing Remus to be a werewolf would hardly cause any problem IMO.

I think the secret was not known to any other than those who were involved in it plus the one extra friend (Peter) or perhaps, even he did not know about it.

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Originally Posted by wingardium713 View Post
To quote Dumbledore from PS/SS "What happened down in the dungeons between you and Professor Quirrel is a complete secret, so, naturally, the whole school knows." That seemed an even better case for being able to keep the entire thing hush-hush. Apparently, only Dumbledore, Harry and Quirrel should have known. Quirrel was dead and Harry had just awoken from his 3 day coma. Things like that just seem to spread in a school.
Have answered it above.

Quote:
To me, I think that Lily was justified in dropping the friendship.
I really don't think Lily needs to justify ending a relationship or a friendship. The moment such things don't work, it is better to end it, rather than hurt oneself, the friend and the friendship. And I think Lily did just that. She ended the friendship because she no longer considered Snape her friend.

I don't think anyone can say she's wrong to do so; it is her right basically.

What I am trying to do is find a reason apart from what is given in the books, simply because I think it was a lot more complicated than what was given to me in canon. They had a friendship against all kinds of norn, really and then Lily broke it off; Snape loves her, and he continues to do so until he dies.

Lily breaks off her friendship very firmly, but then she never even tries to get a "best friend" not one we see in canon anyway. Sirius and Remus don;t talk of Lily's friends even, let alone Lily's best friends and she was not a recluse, or someone who was socially challenged that she could not make friends IMO.

That made me feel that for Lily too, Snape was irreplacable as Lily was irreplacable to Snape.

Only for Lily it was a friendship she could not replace, while for Snape it was a love plus friendship IMO.

So I am exploring the whys of just what went wrong apart from the obvious of Snape's friendships with Avery and Mulciber and his intention to join Voldmeort sometime in the future, simply because I think there was more IMO.


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  #92  
Old July 27th, 2008, 2:20 pm
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Re: Snape and Lily: Joint Character Analysis v.3

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Originally Posted by The_Green_Woods View Post
What I am trying to do is find a reason apart from what is given in the books, simply because I think it was a lot more complicated than what was given to me in canon. They had a friendship against all kinds of norn, really and then Lily broke it off; Snape loves her, and he continues to do so until he dies.
Why should it be more complicated than was in canon. JKR had a story to tell and she told it in canon. She gave us reasons in canon. And just in case we didn't get it from canon, JKR has also told us in interviews, which do reaffirm what we got in canon. We were given perfectly good reasons for why Lily stopped being friends with Snape. He was bigoted and openly called others Mudblood. He was involved in Dark Magic. He was friends with Jr. DEs. He thought their evil behavior was just a laugh. He wanted to join Voldemort. How many reasons do we need?

It was only her good heart and warm nature that kept her friends long after he had traveled down his dark path.

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Originally Posted by The_Green_Woods View Post
Lily breaks off her friendship very firmly, but then she never even tries to get a "best friend" not one we see in canon anyway. Sirius and Remus don;t talk of Lily's friends even, let alone Lily's best friends and she was not a recluse, or someone who was socially challenged that she could not make friends IMO. That made me feel that for Lily too, Snape was irreplacable as Lily was irreplacable to Snape. Only for Lily it was a friendship she could not replace, while for Snape it was a love plus friendship IMO
I don't follow the assumptions here. We weren't shown Lily's friends because they weren't important to the plot. The Marauders were. The seven book series focused on Harry, not the prior generation. We were only shown limited backstory that directly affected Harry or the story surrounding Harry. These weren't books about the prior generation, so we weren't shown that much.

I find it hard to understand why Snape was irreplaceable to Lily. We have no canon that even hints at that. He was a good friend, but that friendship deteriorated because of Snape's actions and poor choices. Friendships can fall apart for far less good reasons than Lily had.

IMO Snape became obsessed with Lily because he lost her and was essentially responsible for her subsequent death. I don't even think it was emotionally healthy for him, since men in their late 30s never carry torches for girls they had crushes on at age 15. Most men in their late 30s can't even remember the name of girls they had crushes on at age 15.


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Old July 27th, 2008, 3:27 pm
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Re: Snape and Lily: Joint Character Analysis v.3

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It was only her good heart and warm nature that kept her friends long after he had traveled down his dark path.
For how long did you think Snape travelled the dark path and for how long do you think Lily was friends with Snape after he travelled the dark path?

Quote:
I find it hard to understand why Snape was irreplaceable to Lily.
I think it was because they had a friendship that was not unlike James and Sirius's IMO. Such friendships are hard to replace IMO.


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  #94  
Old July 27th, 2008, 4:07 pm
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Re: Snape and Lily: Joint Character Analysis v.3

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Originally Posted by CBW
It was only her good heart and warm nature that kept her friends long after he had traveled down his dark path.
I disagree. I believe it was his desperation and her patience that held things together, rather than some innate "gift" of Lily's.
And I would ask the same question as TGW. I highly doubt Snape went around calling people "Mudblood" in first year after all.

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I think it was because they had a friendship that was not unlike James and Sirius's IMO. Such friendships are hard to replace IMO.
I wouldn't really compare it to James and Sirius' friendship because those two were social and psychological equals and each seemed to value the friendship just as much as the other.

Snape grew up in a household devoid of care and, perhaps, love. He is going to cling rather desperately to anyone who accepts him. Lily, on the other hand, grew up with loving parents, other friends, and a sister. She was never alone, and apparently didn't understand the effect loneliness has on a person.

I think that was why, on Lily's side of the relationship, that friendship was easy to replace.


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  #95  
Old July 27th, 2008, 4:39 pm
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Re: Snape and Lily: Joint Character Analysis v.3

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And I would ask the same question as TGW. I highly doubt Snape went around calling people "Mudblood" in first year after all.
Well we'll never know, but he sure had enough insults for Petunia before they even started school.
Quote:
Originally Posted by The_Green_Woods View Post
For how long did you think Snape travelled the dark path and for how long do you think Lily was friends with Snape after he travelled the dark path?
Well she said she had been making excuses for him for years. How can any of us know how long that was? But it certainly hadn't happened just that year or even the prior one since she used the plural.
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I disagree. I believe it was his desperation and her patience that held things together, rather than some innate "gift" of Lily's.
Harry got his good heart from Lily.


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  #96  
Old July 27th, 2008, 4:42 pm
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Re: Snape and Lily: Joint Character Analysis v.3

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Well we'll never know, but he sure had enough insults for Petunia before they even started school.
I only recall one...


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  #97  
Old July 27th, 2008, 4:56 pm
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Re: Snape and Lily: Joint Character Analysis v.3

There were the ones he didn't voice but hinted at by implying contempt like:
DH, TPT“Haven’t been spying,” said Snape, hot and uncomfortable and dirty-haired in the bright sunlight. “Wouldn’t spy on you, anyway,” he added spitefully, “you’re a Muggle.”
Though Petunia evidently did not understand the word, she could hardly mistake the tone.
There was a crack. A branch over Petunia’s head had fallen. Lily screamed. The branch caught Petunia on the shoulder, and she staggered backward and burst into tears.

“I don’t want to talk to you,” she said in a constricted voice.
“Why not?”
“Tuney h-hates me. Because we saw that letter from Dumbledore.”
“So what?”
She threw him a look of deep dislike.
“So she’s my sister!”

“She’s only a—” He caught himself quickly; Lily, too busy trying to wipe her eyes without being noticed, did not hear him.

Two times he used the word muggle in a contemptuous way and one beaning with a tree branch. And that's ignoring the fact that he disregarded Petunia's privacy and read her mail.



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  #98  
Old July 27th, 2008, 5:05 pm
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Re: Snape and Lily: Joint Character Analysis v.3

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Originally Posted by ignisia View Post
I disagree. I believe it was his desperation and her patience that held things together, rather than some innate "gift" of Lily's.
And I would ask the same question as TGW. I highly doubt Snape went around calling people "Mudblood" in first year after all.
Actually, I feel this likely occurred quite early on. Snape was raised in an environment which allowed him to learn all about the wizard world and it is reasonable that he knew of the racial terms used toward those of various birthrights and ideologies (Mudblood, Blood Traitor, Muggle). The group he fell in with according to Sirius and shown via Lucius' pat on the shoulder at the sorting were certainly already using them, so like Draco, he could have begun exhibiting this behavior very soon after learning the ropes.

Quote:
I wouldn't really compare it to James and Sirius' friendship because those two were social and psychological equals and each seemed to value the friendship just as much as the other.

Snape grew up in a household devoid of care and, perhaps, love. He is going to cling rather desperately to anyone who accepts him. Lily, on the other hand, grew up with loving parents, other friends, and a sister. She was never alone, and apparently didn't understand the effect loneliness has on a person.

I think that was why, on Lily's side of the relationship, that friendship was easy to replace.
I agree. I feel his mum loved him in her way based on what we saw in the canon, but JKR said he was vulnerable and insecure and I feel he would attempt to cling to his friendship with Lily. I agree with everything stated before; Lily's good heart, warm nature, and patience together with Snape's desperation kept the relationship together. I would add that Snape likely had attributes we didn't see that Lily liked or she would have thrown up her hands much sooner (smart, funny or whatever). But Lily was popular, and James wasn't the only game in town, so she likely took advantage of that and dated and such which would give her a more well rounded existence I would think. James was popular also, so Lily wasn't the only fish in the sea for him; but I get the feeling that for Snape, Lily was the only duck in the pond and so his desperation could be arise not just from his background, but also from his school experience and a lack of available dates.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ComicBookWorm View Post
Harry got his good heart from Lily.
I'd say from both his parents. But Lily definitely had a good heart in my view, based on what we saw in canon.


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  #99  
Old July 27th, 2008, 5:19 pm
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Re: Snape and Lily: Joint Character Analysis v.3

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I wouldn't really compare it to James and Sirius' friendship because those two were social and psychological equals and each seemed to value the friendship just as much as the other.


But I think Snape and Lily too, valued their friendship just as much. Only Lily broke off when Snape started hanging out with Avery and Mulciber, while James held out even when Sirius almost killed Snape and Remus IMO.

Quote:
Snape grew up in a household devoid of care and, perhaps, love.
I think in this Snape and Sirius were equal.

Quote:
He is going to cling rather desperately to anyone who accepts him. Lily, on the other hand, grew up with loving parents, other friends, and a sister. She was never alone, and apparently didn't understand the effect loneliness has on a person.
Somehow I don't see Snape as a clinger. I think he has enormous depth when it comes to people he considers his; but somehow I cannot think of him as someone willing to do anything to keep a friendship. Then he would have obeyed Lily in everything and would have been the inferior partner in that friendship. I don't think so. I do think however, Snape gave in a lot to Lily, but I think that was because he loved her, as a friend initially and later romantically. I think he liked giving in to her.

But otherwise I think their friendship was pretty much equal, somehow, I don;t know why.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ComicBookWorm
Well we'll never know, but he sure had enough insults for Petunia before they even started school.
Snape bit off that word, so we'd never know if it was "muggle" or "mudblood" IMO. He was at that time trying to make friends with Lily and so he may have not wanted to even use the word "muggle" in front of her, because I think to Snape muggles were not nice people, because the muggle he had seen up close was not a very nice person; his father IMO.


Quote:
Well she said she had been making excuses for him for years. How can any of us know how long that was? But it certainly hadn't happened just that year or even the prior one since she used the plural.
This statement IMO is not about Snape and the dark arts. I think this was a statement, said in the heat of the moment and which was very true (though not in the sense you mean I think), and for which I hope Lily would feel for later.

"I have made excuses for you for years" is IMO a harsh statement from Lily. Why do I say so?

Because she was friends with Snape and she was making excuses for him for years to the Gryffindors. That shows to me that she wanted the friendship, she liked Snape, she could not replace him for the five years they were in School in different Houses which were also enemies and with James, Sirius and Mary and even others perhaps telling Lily that Snape was a greasy git and she should stop being friends with a slimy Slytherin. To them, I think she made excuses that he was really okay, he was not bad and would they all shut up please and things like that IMO.

Those kinds of excuses I think are natural when a small girl is stubborn enough to hold on to her friendship with a boy who was so far apart from her in every way possible and at the same time when her peers are pressurising her to stop being friendly because he was a Slytherin and he was an odd ball IMO.

Those kinds of excuses slowly in fifth year after the werewolf incident(when Lily fell for James) and when Snape started hanging out with Avery and Mulciber, may have turned to excuses for being friendly. That was a very short period after which Lily stopped being friends with Snape IMO.

Quote:
And that's ignoring the fact that he disregarded Petunia's privacy and read her mail.
Well Lily was on that one too IMO.


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  #100  
Old July 27th, 2008, 5:26 pm
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Re: Snape and Lily: Joint Character Analysis v.3

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Snape bit off that word, so we'd never know if it was "muggle" or "mudblood" IMO. He was at that time trying to make friends with Lily and so he may have not wanted to even use the word "muggle" in front of her, because I think to Snape muggles were not nice people, because the muggle he had seen up close was not a very nice person; his father IMO.
It was definitely going to be muggle; Petunia wasn't a Mudblood.


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