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Snape and Lily: Joint Character Analysis v.4



View Poll Results: Was Snape a good friend to Lily?
Yes, he couldn't have been a better or more devoted friend. 12 12.90%
Yes. If only she had appreciated him more he wouldn't have joined the DE. 13 13.98%
Kind of. He should have listened to her concerns instead of focussing on his jealousy. 49 52.69%
No. He sympathised with a group of pure-blood supremacist terrorists while he was friends with her. 23 24.73%
Absolutely not. SWM was only the last straw and he'd failed her before. 9 9.68%
Oh dear, that's one hell of a poll. *hides* 19 20.43%
A pony? 20 21.51%
Multiple Choice Poll. Voters: 93. You may not vote on this poll

 
 
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  #101  
Old February 1st, 2010, 11:37 am
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Re: Snape and Lily: Joint Character Analysis v.4

Quote:
Originally Posted by eliza101 View Post
I see what you are trying to say Kittling, but where that fails for me is that there is no evidence that Lily was friend's with James and Co,
I very deliberately did not call the people either Lily or Sev were associating with friends – I used the term associates for a reason.

Personally I think Sev & Lily have rather different ideas about what a friend is. (please remember that he puts Lily in a very different category imo by calling her his ‘best friend’)

Lily does not call Mulciber and Avery Sev’s friends, she says she doesn’t like the people he’s ‘hanging around with’ Sev’s response is to name some one Lily hangs around with, although this is in part by default because she is in the same house as the marauders – but one should also remember that the same is true of the example Lily used. Hence I don’t feel comfortable referring to either as friends.

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She is going to be puzzled when Snape starts going on about them when she is not interested in what the Marauders do.
Well she might be puzzled but that does not mean he did not have a good reason for this apparent change of topic – although I suspect from his point of view there was not a big change of topic – bad people who you find funny could easily apply to either of the groups being discussed; one was using dark magic and getting laughs the other had just jeopardised Sev’s life and was getting laughs.

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Snape defended Mulciber and Avery, Lily criticized James and called him an arrogant toe rag. There is a very different reaction right there.
That really depends on which conversation you’re talking about. The one that happens days after the werewolf incident Lily does not criticise James or any of the marauders at all the closes she gets s to say ‘They don’t use dark magic, though’ she then goes on to tell Sev he should be grateful to James. It is only after Sev nearly explodes at being told that the he should be grateful to one of the people he believes tried to off him saved him that Lily calls James an arrogant toe rag. Did she say that because she vehemently believed it or to shut Sev up? imo either is possible but I think the later more likely given her previous comments about James

Having just looked at the scene again I find it rather telling that ‘Potter & his mates’ only get mentioned when Lily says ‘It was dark magic, and if you think that’s funny - ’. In a later scene we see that Lily suppresses her amusement at an act of bully that the marauders engage in so I think it is not unreasonable to think that perhaps Sev has seen a similar reaction from her when she has witnessed similar events in the past. Put this together with the fact that the conversation is happening only a few days after the werewolf incident where Sev’s life was in jeopardy in what he firmly believes was an attempt on his life. Given this I don’t find it either a surprising or inappropriate reaction on his part – murders are general considered to be bad people and I know I wouldn’t want any friend of mine, let alone my best friend, anywhere near someone like that.

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I've been thinking about Snape and his reaction to James saving him, The more I think about it I think that Snape would not let himself even consider that James had saved him just because it was the right thing to do. He hated James and let's face it James gave him reasons. I think that he just did not want to face the fact that James had saved his life and it was easier to blame James than thank him.
While that is possible I think it is equally reasonable for him to have assumed that the actions were a result of a group plan. Gangs by their nature act as a group and if one has seen this repeatedly then I don’t think it unreasonable to assume that this is also the case in this incident. Just because the reader knows that Sev’s judgment may have been incorrect does not mean that his judgment had no logic or was unreasonable given the information he had at the time.

I still stand by my original point that the friendship was already in trouble and that both parties didn’t really want to hear what the other had to say despite the fact the still cared about each other enough to want to protect their friend from the people they see as dangerous that their friend is associating with.


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  #102  
Old February 1st, 2010, 11:40 am
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Re: Snape and Lily: Joint Character Analysis v.4

Quote:
Originally Posted by eliza101 View Post
I think it was a deliberate attempt to divert the conversation, but it was driven by emotion on Severus' part. That emotion was his underlying anger and hatred for the Marauders. These negative emotions led him to jump from the frying pan directly into the fire.
The fact that this was just days after the Wererwolf incident, points to me that it was a purely emotional reaction by Severus, which resulted in a change of subject in the conversation and not a deliberate diversion.
So, I think we will just have to agree to disagree on this.

Although, I do agree with you that his high emotions with all his anger against the Marauders did him absolutely no favours.


  #103  
Old February 1st, 2010, 12:30 pm
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Re: Snape and Lily: Joint Character Analysis v.4

Quote:
Originally Posted by kittling View Post
I very deliberately did not call the people either Lily or Sev were associating with friends – I used the term associates for a reason.

Personally I think Sev & Lily have rather different ideas about what a friend is. (please remember that he puts Lily in a very different category imo by calling her his ‘best friend’)

Lily does not call Mulciber and Avery Sev’s friends, she says she doesn’t like the people he’s ‘hanging around with’ Sev’s response is to name some one Lily hangs around with, although this is in part by default because she is in the same house as the marauders – but one should also remember that the same is true of the example Lily used. Hence I don’t feel comfortable referring to either as friends.



Well she might be puzzled but that does not mean he did not have a good reason for this apparent change of topic – although I suspect from his point of view there was not a big change of topic – bad people who you find funny could easily apply to either of the groups being discussed; one was using dark magic and getting laughs the other had just jeopardised Sev’s life and was getting laughs.



That really depends on which conversation you’re talking about. The one that happens days after the werewolf incident Lily does not criticise James or any of the marauders at all the closes she gets s to say ‘They don’t use dark magic, though’ she then goes on to tell Sev he should be grateful to James. It is only after Sev nearly explodes at being told that the he should be grateful to one of the people he believes tried to off him saved him that Lily calls James an arrogant toe rag. Did she say that because she vehemently believed it or to shut Sev up? imo either is possible but I think the later more likely given her previous comments about James

Having just looked at the scene again I find it rather telling that ‘Potter & his mates’ only get mentioned when Lily says ‘It was dark magic, and if you think that’s funny - ’. In a later scene we see that Lily suppresses her amusement at an act of bully that the marauders engage in so I think it is not unreasonable to think that perhaps Sev has seen a similar reaction from her when she has witnessed similar events in the past. Put this together with the fact that the conversation is happening only a few days after the werewolf incident where Sev’s life was in jeopardy in what he firmly believes was an attempt on his life. Given this I don’t find it either a surprising or inappropriate reaction on his part – murders are general considered to be bad people and I know I wouldn’t want any friend of mine, let alone my best friend, anywhere near someone like that.



While that is possible I think it is equally reasonable for him to have assumed that the actions were a result of a group plan. Gangs by their nature act as a group and if one has seen this repeatedly then I don’t think it unreasonable to assume that this is also the case in this incident. Just because the reader knows that Sev’s judgment may have been incorrect does not mean that his judgment had no logic or was unreasonable given the information he had at the time.

I still stand by my original point that the friendship was already in trouble and that both parties didn’t really want to hear what the other had to say despite the fact the still cared about each other enough to want to protect their friend from the people they see as dangerous that their friend is associating with.
While I respect your opinion Kittling, I don't agree with it. I reread the passage. Lily states that she does not like the people Sev is hanging out with. I don't know about you but the only people I hung out with at school were my friends. Associates were the people I nodded to in the corridor, and maybe worked on a project with in class. God, that's going back. Associates were people I knew casually. So I think if Sev is hanging out with these people and thinks that their use of Dark Magic is funny then I also think Lily has very good reasons to be worried. It is after Lilly first mentions Dark Magic that Severus brings in the Marauders.
Quote:
“What about the stuff Potter and his mates get up to?” demanded Snape.
To which Lily asks what do they have to do with anything. Now I don't know about you but I think this question definitely has an element of puzzlement about it. Severus then tells her that they sneak out at night and Lupin is always away at the full moon.
Now to my mind this begs 2 questions,
1. How does Severus know that the Marauders sneak out at night? Shouldn't he have been in the Slytherin Common room or even tucked up safely in his bed? If he does know that the Marauders are sneaking out then it has to be that he is following them. Confirming Sirius' statement that he got so fed up with Snape's sneaking around he decided to tell him how to find out what he was so anxious to confirm. Very reckless on Sirius' part and foolish beyond belief of Snape to follow it.
2. Why is Severus so concerned with Remus? Does his suspicions warrant his actions? IMO, no. Remus is not hurting him and what Remus does in his absence from school once a month is not any of Severus' business. This inquisitiveness on his part has never sat well with me.

Now as to Snape's assumption that the Marauder's were working as a group in an attempt to murder him. These are schoolchildren, not Murder Inc. The thought never seems to cross his mind that it was a murder attempt when he goes into the tunnel, it only occurs after James has risked his life to save him? I think he got the fright of his life, just what Sirius planned on him getting, (not nice, understanding not condoning) and like I said, rather than face the unpalatable truth that he had been royally had by Sirius and that James had just saved his life, he would rather think that it was a grand conspiracy and he was the target. What Sirius did to a schoolmate was terrible, but it was not a murder attempt and I think Snape was intelligent enough to know that. I just think that he preferred that version in his own mind to the thought that James, of all people, James Potter had willing risked his neck to save him.

You are IMO quite right that the friendship was in trouble. It was in trouble because,
A: Severus would not listen to Lily,
B: He refused to responsibility for his own actions.
C: Both he and Lily are very young and both tend to see things in black and white.
I think Lily would have been quite willing to help her Friend, but he refused to see that he needed help.


  #104  
Old February 1st, 2010, 1:03 pm
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Re: Snape and Lily: Joint Character Analysis v.4

Quote:
Originally Posted by eliza101 View Post
To which Lily asks what do they have to do with anything. Now I don't know about you but I think this question definitely has an element of puzzlement about it.
Oh, I think she is most definately puzzled. From her point of view why bring up James and co? But of course we know that it is just days after the Werewolf incident, and we also know how Severus feels about that. This is something Lily is not privy to and because Severus has been banned from discussing it he cannot even tell her about it and only manages to hint at it.

Quote:
What Sirius did to a schoolmate was terrible, but it was not a murder attempt and I think Snape was intelligent enough to know that.
Yet, 17 years later Severus still believes that Sirius made an attempt on his life.

POA, Hermione's Secret
'Sirius Black showed he was capable of murder at the age of sixteen,' he breathed. 'You haven't forgotten that, Headmaster? You haven't forgotten that he once tried to kill me!'

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I think Lily would have been quite willing to help her Friend, but he refused to see that he needed help.
I agree, I don't think Severus did think he needed any help.


  #105  
Old February 1st, 2010, 1:50 pm
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Re: Snape and Lily: Joint Character Analysis v.4

In an attempt to stay on topic I have split my response between this thread & the Severus Snape thread as some of it doesn’t seem to concern Lily much

Quote:
Originally Posted by eliza101 View Post
While I respect your opinion Kittling, I don't agree with it. I reread the passage. Lily states that she does not like the people Sev is hanging out with.
My point was simply that I did not use the term friend in relation to either of the groups being discussed. You are of course free to your own interpretation but I ask you to respect mine and not put words in my mouth (so to speak) which was the thing I objected to and why I pointed out that I had not used the term.

That Mulciber & Avery are his friends is not said by Lily and I know many people find it highly arguable that they are actually his friends rather than housemates – please note I am not saying you have to agree.

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So I think if Sev is hanging out with these people and thinks that their use of Dark Magic is funny then I also think Lily has very good reasons to be worried. It is after Lilly first mentions Dark Magic that Severus brings in the Marauders.
I have no argument with that point and I don’t believe I have ever stated that Lily did not have a reason to be worried.

How ever I can also understand why Sev was worried about Lily hanging round with the marauders. Sev may have misjudged Black’s motivation (a very arguable point imo) and he may have misjudged Potters part in the incident but I think it is quite reasonable to worry about a friend hanging around with people who are so reckless that they have in the very recent past actually endangered your life.

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To which Lily asks what do they have to do with anything. Now I don't know about you but I think this question definitely has an element of puzzlement about it.
Again I believe that have not said anything to the contrary.

Lily may not understand where that retort/question comes from but that does not mean that Sev has necessarily changed the topic. He has access to information that she does not and he is not allowed to share that information with her. Her not being able to see that the topic has not been changed does not mean that has been changed. I believe Sev felt he was still very much on topic – dangerous people who others find funny.

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You are IMO quite right that the friendship was in trouble.
Yay! An agreement

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It was in trouble because,
A: Severus would not listen to Lily,
And she would not listen to him either

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B: He refused to responsibility for his own actions.
At which point are we talking here? I am referring strictly to one conversation I’m not sure that you are to be honest

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C: Both he and Lily are very young and both tend to see things in black and white.


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I think Lily would have been quite willing to help her Friend, but he refused to see that he needed help.
Well that is totally hypothetical but I think you’re probably right up to a certain point in their friendship, but again I suspect that Sev would have helped Lily if she was wanted his help to stop associating with the people he was worried about too.


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  #106  
Old February 1st, 2010, 2:37 pm
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Re: Snape and Lily: Joint Character Analysis v.4

Why do you think the encounter went wrong?

I think perhaps Severus' remark about her being a witch was startling. She knew she could do things Petunia couldn't, but she had yet to be confronted with the fact that she was really different. The flower, I thought was a sweet gesture. It may have also been that she didn't want Tooney to go home and start talking about that strange boy.


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  #107  
Old February 1st, 2010, 3:17 pm
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Re: Snape and Lily: Joint Character Analysis v.4

[quote]
Quote:
Originally Posted by kittling View Post
In an attempt to stay on topic I have split my response between this thread & the Severus Snape thread as some of it doesn’t seem to concern Lily much



My point was simply that I did not use the term friend in relation to either of the groups being discussed. You are of course free to your own interpretation but I ask you to respect mine and not put words in my mouth (so to speak) which was the thing I objected to and why I pointed out that I had not used the term.

That Mulciber & Avery are his friends is not said by Lily and I know many people find it highly arguable that they are actually his friends rather than housemates – please note I am not saying you have to agree.
Kittling, I'm not agreeing with you, but I'm not trying to put words in your mouth either. You posted associates and I pointed out the text said that Severus was hanging out with said associates. Now I could be wrong, but in my experience teenage boys hang out with their friends not associates. So in this case I will agree to disagree with you about what a friend is and what an associate is.
I think the next point you made was that Severus was concerned about Lily associating with the Marauders and how he didn't want them to influence her. Now again I might be wrong but up until this point there is nothing in canon about Lilt associating with the Marauders. The last we saw of her she had turned her back on them and was ignoring them. So for Severus to be suddenly so concerned about the influence she would have to be in their company, a lot. But of course there is no evidence anything like this had happened. Lily calls James an arrogant toe-rag. This is not evidence that she is being influenced by James in any way or that he is someone who's company she seeks.

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I have no argument with that point and I don’t believe I have ever stated that Lily did not have a reason to be worried.
How ever I can also understand why Sev was worried about Lily hanging round with the marauders. Sev may have misjudged Black’s motivation (a very arguable point imo) and he may have misjudged Potters part in the incident but I think it is quite reasonable to worry about a friend hanging around with people who are so reckless that they have in the very recent past actually endangered your life.
This would pre-suppose that Lily was hanging around with James and Co. Just because they are in the same house does not make them bosum buddies. Harry and the trio are in Gryfindor with a Parvatti sister and they are not buddy-buddies with her. She really is just a associate. It seems to me that in this case Severus is adding 1+1 and getting 11.
You have a point in that Severus had reason to believe ill of the Marauders. I just have trouble seeing them as cold-blooded would be murderers. I see them as carelessly arrogant children, but not Murder Inc plotting the removal of one Severus Snape because he was following them. i tink if Severus had ever let go of his hatred long enough he might have come to the same conclusion. Also, what does it say about his mind set that he would assume it was a deliberate attempt on his life. Does that mean if the circumstances were reversed he would not hesitate to attempt murder on one of them?


Quote:
Lily may not understand where that retort/question comes from but that does not mean that Sev has necessarily changed the topic. He has access to information that she does not and he is not allowed to share that information with her. Her not being able to see that the topic has not been changed does not mean that has been changed. I believe Sev felt he was still very much on topic – dangerous people who others find funny.
IMO Snape has access to a lot of assumptions and treats them like cold, hard facts. Severus can believe the moon is made of green cheese , it doesn't make it so. He changed the subject when Lily pointed out his associate was using Dark Magic.

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Yay! An agreement
Well I'm a reasonable person.

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And she would not listen to him either
She listened to him. She heard him say that Dark Magic was a laugh and she heard him say that the Marauders were not a great as they were cracked up to be, She didn't agree with the first and did agree with the second.

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At which point are we talking here? I am referring strictly to one conversation I’m not sure that you are to be honest
I am taliking about the last conversation before SWM.


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Well that is totally hypothetical but I think you’re probably right up to a certain point in their friendship, but again I suspect that Sev would have helped Lily if she was wanted his help to stop associating with the people he was worried about too.
But Lily didn't need any help in stopping associating with people who were practicing Dark Magic, Severus was. Now I written all this, I've made a killer chocolate cake for the grandsons, would you like a piece?


  #108  
Old February 1st, 2010, 5:27 pm
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Re: Snape and Lily: Joint Character Analysis v.4

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Originally Posted by RavenStar83 View Post
This is something else that happens in real life. As I've said many times on this forum before, there are people who do stay in a relationship with someone who looks down on their background. It's not good, and its not healthy, but there many reasons why a person would stay in such a relationship. Maybe they love the person too much, or maybe they're afraid to let the person go for whatever reason. Sometimes they'll end up making excuses for the person, just as Lily did. It's a complicated situation. The important thing is that the person realizes that they deserve more respect than that, and that they get out.

If Lily should have broken away from him a long time ago, shouldn't we be glad that she finally did? I don't see how it should be held against her that she did it later. Should she have sucked it up and dealt with it since she didn't do it at what we think was a more appropriate time?
In all cases, I think for the person, the other friend/partner is in a way important that other things fade into the background. No one is perfect and love, true love or friendship between persons is usually in spite of rather than because of (a fault/quality/tendency). Excuses for a person they love is not uncommon as long as the love is there; once the love for a friend or lover or partner vanishes, then such actions are seen in a most negative light.

But there are certain actions that are fundamentally wrong and if a person puts up with such mistakes, it's usually not because of love but because they are scared to walk out of that relationship for some reason or they are forced into staying in that relationship for some reason.

Was Snape's habit of calling people mudblood something that came in a category where one could excuse him until they did not love him or need him, or, was it a mistake that was a serious one? If it was the former then Lily IMO could have easily forgiven Snape this time too, because of his own humiliated state. If it was the latter reason, then I ask why did not Lily break off the first time. I've been under the impression that the Mudblood word was equal to the Nword or calling someone Nazi or Paki some other such racist name (this name, mudblood is usually called racist) and one which was generally unforgivable, which was why I asked why Lily did not break away her friendship the first time she heard Snape say mudblood?

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Here's what I don't understand: why would having romantic interest in another person cause you to break away from your best friend?
Because the love interest and friend are James and Snape. With a Sirius thrown in on James' side IMO.

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And given evidence in the text, I don't see any proof that Lily broke away from Snape because of James.
I see that from the memory after the werewolf incident mostly, and the SWM.

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Given that Snape was hanging around racists who liked Dark Magic, using and calling her the word Mudblood, those are the reasons I see in the text.
Have answered it above.

Quote:
Originally Posted by eliza101 View Post
Raven, you know I am not one to excuse Snape, but I do think it is easier sometime to lash out at your nearest and dearest: Usually because you know that they will forgive you.
I agree.


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  #109  
Old February 1st, 2010, 7:33 pm
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Re: Snape and Lily: Joint Character Analysis v.4

Quote:
Originally Posted by The_Green_Woods View Post
Was Snape's habit of calling people mudblood something that came in a category where one could excuse him until they did not love him or need him, or, was it a mistake that was a serious one? If it was the former then Lily IMO could have easily forgiven Snape this time too, because of his own humiliated state. If it was the latter reason, then I ask why did not Lily break off the first time. I've been under the impression that the Mudblood word was equal to the Nword or calling someone Nazi or Paki some other such racist name (this name, mudblood is usually called racist) and one which was generally unforgivable, which was why I asked why Lily did not break away her friendship the first time she heard Snape say mudblood?
From what is shown in canon, IMO Lily did break off with Snape the first time she heard him use the word.


  #110  
Old February 1st, 2010, 7:54 pm
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Re: Snape and Lily: Joint Character Analysis v.4

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Originally Posted by RavenStar83 View Post
I do not deny that there were reasons behind it. And yes, I do understand it is easier to take your anger out on the people close to you. (We saw Harry do this through out Year 5.) But if Snape was going to take it out on Lily, he could have said so many other things directed at her. But he referred to her as a filthy mudblood. As I said before, it says a lot about a person when they use a racial slur. And I mention this because given how serious racism is in the books and how its executed, this is not something to take lightly regardless of the reason or what kind of person said it. Yet I have seen reasons explaining that this is something Lily should have forgiven, and she is criticized for not doing so.
I see it like this as well. People do lash out when they're stressed, and often at the people closest to them. However, I believe that what Severus said is more important here than the fact that he lashes out at Lily. To call someone a Mudblood under those circumstances, when he could have said anything else implies to me that on some level he believed that. I also think that perhaps, because he knew Lily personally and cared for her, she was an exception, in his mind.

Quote:
Originally Posted by random_musing View Post
And nobody should be expected to have to convince their best friend that they're more than an exception. It seems as though Lily was making excuses to cling to the notion that things in their relationship would improve, especially on the blood prejudice part. But when Lily is criticized for not trying hard enough to prove her worth to her best friend...uh, I find that incredibly problematic and simply more evidence that their friendship was dysfunctional from start to finish.
I agree -Lily should not have to settle for being an exception, nobody should. The Mudblood incident brought her to realise that, imo.

Quote:
Originally Posted by TreacleTartlet View Post
The fact that this was just days after the Wererwolf incident, points to me that it was a purely emotional reaction by Severus, which resulted in a change of subject in the conversation and not a deliberate diversion.
So, I think we will just have to agree to disagree on this.

Although, I do agree with you that his high emotions with all his anger against the Marauders did him absolutely no favours.
Having reread this conversation, Severus reminds me a lot of kids I've worked with -if they're caught doing something they shouldn't have been doing, they'll try to dig themselves out of it by saying "Yeah, well he did x, y, or z." Severus couldn't continue to deny what Lily was saying about the people he hung around with, as it was true so he turned the conversation to his grievances against the Marauders. I know this is an extended example, in that Lily is talking about something Severus' friends did rather than what he did, bit I feel it's the same tactic. Plus, it's interesting that once Lily insults James there seems to be a spring in his step, even as she continues telling him of her concerns regarding Mulciber and Avery.

Quote:
Originally Posted by TreacleTartlet View Post
Oh, I think she is most definately puzzled. From her point of view why bring up James and co? But of course we know that it is just days after the Werewolf incident, and we also know how Severus feels about that. This is something Lily is not privy to and because Severus has been banned from discussing it he cannot even tell her about it and only manages to hint at it.
I'm not sure about the extent of Lily's knowledge of those events. While she doesn't know that Lupin is a werewolf, (or maybe doesn't want to know, as it's none of her business), she is aware that James saved Severus from whatever is down there (under the Willow). Severus also tells Lily that James saved him to save their own skins. I'd have to surmise that Severus was the one who made this information known to Lily, despite being forbidden to. The Marauders wouldn't have wanted questions asked about Lupin, imo. If she knows that James saved Severus, how much more does she know about the incident?

Quote:
Yet, 17 years later Severus still believes that Sirius made an attempt on his life.
He believes, that's his opinion and he's entitled to it. However, opinions aren't fact. It was utterly wrong of Sirius, but I don't see it as attempted murder.


Quote:
Originally Posted by The_Green_Woods View Post
In all cases, I think for the person, the other friend/partner is in a way important that other things fade into the background. No one is perfect and love, true love or friendship between persons is usually in spite of rather than because of (a fault/quality/tendency). Excuses for a person they love is not uncommon as long as the love is there; once the love for a friend or lover or partner vanishes, then such actions are seen in a most negative light.

But there are certain actions that are fundamentally wrong and if a person puts up with such mistakes, it's usually not because of love but because they are scared to walk out of that relationship for some reason or they are forced into staying in that relationship for some reason.
Sometimes a person can love someone and the relationship still isn't good for them. I think it took until SWM for Lily to realise this. It doesn't mean she didn't care for Severus, it meant she had realised she couldn't save him, nor was she obliged to, at the age of sixteen.


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Last edited by FurryDice; February 1st, 2010 at 8:01 pm.
  #111  
Old February 1st, 2010, 8:20 pm
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Re: Snape and Lily: Joint Character Analysis v.4

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Originally Posted by kittling View Post
I still stand by my original point that the friendship was already in trouble and that both parties didn’t really want to hear what the other had to say
I think it's sort of telling, though, when you look at it this way: Which incident is usually used as an example of Lily not listening to Severus? When he continued to harp on about Remus being a werewolf which, despite being true, was a serious accusation and could easily have been seen as an extension of Severus' bitterness from the Marauders in general. Now compare the true identity of Remus being accurate to Snape not listening to Lily's criticisms of Snape hanging out with people who wanted to be Death Eaters and dabbled/found amusement by Dark Arts. I've gotta say that in the grand scheme of things, Snape not listening to Lily's worries about his friends was a much more unnerving example of bad communication and lack of listening skills than Lily doubting a rare, uncontrollable condition of a fellow student.

I think that a concern that directly involved Snape which was then ignored by Snape is much more detrimental to the communication issues in their relationship than something involving another student.

Quote:
Originally Posted by FurryDice View Post
Severus couldn't continue to deny what Lily was saying about the people he hung around with, as it was true so he turned the conversation to his grievances against the Marauders. I know this is an extended example, in that Lily is talking about something Severus' friends did rather than what he did, bit I feel it's the same tactic.
Exactly


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  #112  
Old February 1st, 2010, 8:49 pm
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Re: Snape and Lily: Joint Character Analysis v.4

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Originally Posted by FurryDice View Post
I'm not sure about the extent of Lily's knowledge of those events. While she doesn't know that Lupin is a werewolf, (or maybe doesn't want to know, as it's none of her business), she is aware that James saved Severus from whatever is down there (under the Willow). Severus also tells Lily that James saved him to save their own skins. I'd have to surmise that Severus was the one who made this information known to Lily, despite being forbidden to. The Marauders wouldn't have wanted questions asked about Lupin, imo. If she knows that James saved Severus, how much more does she know about the incident?
I think it is pretty clear that she didn't come by this information from Severus.

DH, The Prince's Tale
'And you are being really ungrateful. I heard what happened the other night. You went sneaking down that tunnel by the Whomping Willow and James Potter saved you from whatever's down there -'

If Lily had been told about the incident from Severus, she would hardly tell him that she had heard about it.

Quote:
He believes, that's his opinion and he's entitled to it. However, opinions aren't fact.
But when analysing a character what he/she believes rightly or wrongly is important to understanding their motivations and behavior.



Last edited by TreacleTartlet; February 1st, 2010 at 8:52 pm.
  #113  
Old February 1st, 2010, 9:19 pm
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Re: Snape and Lily: Joint Character Analysis v.4

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Originally Posted by TreacleTartlet View Post
But when analysing a character what he/she believes rightly or wrongly is important to understanding their motivations and behavior.
Understanding does not equate to condoning. Yes I understand why Severus did what he did. I still think he was wrong and I still think he preferred his own version of James' rescue to the truth


  #114  
Old February 1st, 2010, 9:26 pm
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Re: Snape and Lily: Joint Character Analysis v.4

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Originally Posted by eliza101 View Post
Understanding does not equate to condoning.
That was not what I felt was being implied. As I understood it, it was implied as that Severus' opinions were irrelevant and not that one does not have to condone them.



Last edited by TreacleTartlet; February 1st, 2010 at 9:44 pm. Reason: clarification
  #115  
Old February 1st, 2010, 9:37 pm
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Re: Snape and Lily: Joint Character Analysis v.4

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Originally Posted by TreacleTartlet View Post
That was not implied. I understood it, it was implied as that Severus' opinions were irrelevant.

i'm sorry, I've completely lost track of where we are. I'm going to read my new murder mystery that just arrived from Amazon today.


  #116  
Old February 1st, 2010, 9:51 pm
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Re: Snape and Lily: Joint Character Analysis v.4

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Originally Posted by TreacleTartlet View Post
That was not what I felt was being implied. As I understood it, it was implied as that Severus' opinions were irrelevant and not that one does not have to condone them.
Sorry, I didn't mean to imply that Snape's opinions are irrelevant, I was just trying to say that Snape's belief that Sirius tried to murder him does not make it fact.


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  #117  
Old February 1st, 2010, 10:34 pm
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Re: Snape and Lily: Joint Character Analysis v.4

I chose Yes. If only she had appreciated him more he wouldn't have joined the DE. and
Kind of. He should have listened to her concerns instead of focussing on his jealousy. James was so mean to Snape, too, but then he was mean to Harry. He, Bellatrix, Cedric, Draco, Sirius and Lupin are my favorite characters. Alan Rickman is an awesome villian. )


  #118  
Old February 1st, 2010, 10:57 pm
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Re: Snape and Lily: Joint Character Analysis v.4

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Originally Posted by italktosnakes View Post
I chose Yes. If only she had appreciated him more he wouldn't have joined the DE. and
Kind of. He should have listened to her concerns instead of focussing on his jealousy.
I think that "If Lily had appreciated him more..." removes responsibility for joining the DEs from Snape himself. The theme of choices is hugely important in the series, imo, and it runs throughout the books. Dumbledore tells Harry "It is our choices that show what we truly are, far more than our abilities". If we acknowledge that the good decision to turn against Voldemort was Snape's and that it's to his credit, I think we also need to accept that the wrong decision to join the DEs was also his responsibility and not someone else's.


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  #119  
Old February 1st, 2010, 11:49 pm
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Re: Snape and Lily: Joint Character Analysis v.4

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Originally Posted by FurryDice View Post
I think that "If Lily had appreciated him more..." removes responsibility for joining the DEs from Snape himself.
I think that's why many people didn't like the poll choices to begin with.

I see Lily not appreciating him as a separate issue from his later becoming a Death Eater. One is a normal teenage friendship problem, and I think it's a fair appraisal of their relationship. The other implies cause and effect, which is more debatable. I voted for it since there was a lack of an option about "If Lily had appreciated him more, she might have given him another chance as a friend, and that might have helped him fight the peer pressure."

But I do understand these options can't be three sentences long. It just goes to show how complicated these characters are, imo.


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  #120  
Old February 2nd, 2010, 12:10 am
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Re: Snape and Lily: Joint Character Analysis v.4

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Originally Posted by silver ink pot View Post
I think that's why many people didn't like the poll choices to begin with.

I see Lily not appreciating him as a separate issue from his later becoming a Death Eater. One is a normal teenage friendship problem, and I think it's a fair appraisal of their relationship. The other implies cause and effect, which is more debatable. I voted for it since there was a lack of an option about "If Lily had appreciated him more, she might have given him another chance as a friend, and that might have helped him fight the peer pressure."

But I do understand these options can't be three sentences long. It just goes to show how complicated these characters are, imo.
I don't see how appreciation came into Lily ending the friendship with someone who had used a racial slur against her.

As for peer pressure, I don't really agree. If Severus was that vulnerable to peer pressure, wouldn't his Slytherin friends have been angry about his friendship with Lily? And wouldn't he have caved to them?

Plus, she gave him advice on the matter, which he didn't see fit to listen to. I think continued advice that people like Mulciber and Avery were bad for him would have been like banging her head off a wall for all the affect it had on him. He seemed to have a spring in his step once Lily had insulted James, even though she was still warning him about people like Mulciber and Avery. Snape didn't seem to want Lily's help with that problem, or more accurately, I think, he didn't want to see that it was a problem.


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