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Snape and Lily: Joint Character Analysis v.4



View Poll Results: Was Snape a good friend to Lily?
Yes, he couldn't have been a better or more devoted friend. 12 12.90%
Yes. If only she had appreciated him more he wouldn't have joined the DE. 13 13.98%
Kind of. He should have listened to her concerns instead of focussing on his jealousy. 49 52.69%
No. He sympathised with a group of pure-blood supremacist terrorists while he was friends with her. 23 24.73%
Absolutely not. SWM was only the last straw and he'd failed her before. 9 9.68%
Oh dear, that's one hell of a poll. *hides* 19 20.43%
A pony? 20 21.51%
Multiple Choice Poll. Voters: 93. You may not vote on this poll

 
 
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  #361  
Old March 21st, 2010, 8:55 am
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Re: Snape and Lily: Joint Character Analysis v.4

@Snape loved Lily :: I think Snape loved Lily. I don't think she was a Lily who took a different shape in Snape's mind or someone who existed only in his dreams. I think Snape loved Lily despite her faults (the biggest one and one unforgivable IMO being the lack of concern when she meets Snape for the first time after he was nearly killed); loving her for what she was, rather than for what he wanted her to become IMO.

I think until their 5th year, Lily too loved Snape in the same way, maybe the only difference being, Snape loved her more than a friend while Lily loved him as her best friend.

Quote:
Originally Posted by snapes_witch View Post
If that were true, I doubt that his patronus would have been the pure silver doe.
Answered in the Snape thread.


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  #362  
Old March 21st, 2010, 11:32 am
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Re: Snape and Lily: Joint Character Analysis v.4

Quote:
Originally Posted by The_Green_Woods View Post
@Snape loved Lily :: I think Snape loved Lily. I don't think she was a Lily who took a different shape in Snape's mind or someone who existed only in his dreams. I think Snape loved Lily despite her faults (the biggest one and one unforgivable IMO being the lack of concern when she meets Snape for the first time after he was nearly killed); loving her for what she was, rather than for what he wanted her to become IMO.

I think until their 5th year, Lily too loved Snape in the same way, maybe the only difference being, Snape loved her more than a friend while Lily loved him as her best friend.
I think Lily's biggest fault was giving her friend the benefit of the doubt for so long. She gave him the benefit of the doubt even after he had been so stupid as to try to investigate the tunnel after all of DD warnings to the students. His ingratitude toward James for saving his life is unbelievable and his insistence on clinging to and ignoring the basic fact that James did indeed risk his life to save his is frankly, incredulous. Lily did not have to be concerned about his safety when she meets him after the incident. He certainly does not want her to ask about what happened. He is standing there whole and hearty and defending his friends against the charge of using Dark Magic. Lily brings up the matter of his ingratitude and he turns around and says that James is the guilty party. Talk about believing what you want against all common sense, this is the clearest sign that Snape's mindset was not healthy as a teenager.

As already discussed over on the Snape thread, Snape's ability to produce the same Patronus as Lily is not proof positive that he was a nice guy. He needed a happy memory and for all we know his happy memory could well have been bullying Neville in the classroom, just as Umbridge's ability to produce a beautiful pure white cat to keep the Dementors in place to torture people in the MOM is not proof that she was a nice person.


  #363  
Old March 21st, 2010, 12:42 pm
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Re: Snape and Lily: Joint Character Analysis v.4

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Originally Posted by eliza101 View Post
His ingratitude toward James for saving his life is unbelievable and his insistence on clinging to and ignoring the basic fact that James did indeed risk his life to save his is frankly, incredulous.
I don't understand. How would Snape know James was not in the prank? Snape believed until the end of POA that the Marauders played a prank on him that could have cost him his life and James saved him to save his own neck. He says so to Harry in POA.

POA - Snape's Grudge"And did the headmaster tell you the circumstances in which your father saved my life?" he whispered. "Or did he consider the details too unpleasant for precious Potter’s delicate ears?"

Harry bit his lip. He didn’t know what had happened and didn’t want to admit it __ but Snape seemed to have guessed the truth.

"I would hate for you to run away with a false idea of your father, Potter," he said, a terrible grin twisting his face. "Have you been imagining some act of glorious heroism? Then let me correct you __ your saintly father and his friends played a highly amusing joke on me that would have resulted in my death if your father hadn’t got cold feet at the last moment. There was nothing brave about what he did. He was saving his own skin as much as mine. Had their joke succeeded, he would have been expelled from Hogwarts."
bold mine

It was not until he over heard Lupin talking about the werewolf incident and saying that James was unaware of the so called prank, that Snape would have known that James played no part in it. But even that knowledge will not make Snape feel that James came for him; when the 2 who would be punished with Azkaban, a Kiss or death were Sirius and Remus, James's closest friends, especially Sirius. It's not wrong to say in these circumstances that Snape thought James came for himself and his friends IMO.

Quote:
Lily did not have to be concerned about his safety when she meets him after the incident.
I disagree. I'm afraid I have a very different view of how two people who are best friends should be with each other; indeed even if they were not best friends, I would expect more than what Lily gave in that memory. To show concern for a boy who she claims is her best friend, when he could have been killed is IMO something one can expect of a friend; not the careless way she behaved.

I just cannot understand how Lily could behave in that memory which shows the her very, very poorly IMO.

Quote:
He certainly does not want her to ask about what happened.
He never knew she knew. They had been forbidden to talk about it.

Actually Snape could have seized his chance here to really show Lily the type of pranks the Marauders played for fun. He could have ignored Dumbledore and told Lily what happened IMO.

He could have easily turned her away from them, had he given her an account of what happened first. But Snape IMO kept his promise to Dumbledore (at the cost of his friendship with Lily, it looks like to me), and he to his credit, never spoke of what 1) was a pretty horrible incident for him, and, 2) until Lily brought up the subject, was silent about it, which makes me feel that he did not use this incident to try and sway Lily's opinion of the Marauders.

DH - TPT“I’m just trying to show you they’re not as wonderful as everyone seems to think they are.”


Lily somehow heard of this and not the full version either, for she seems to be concentrating more on gratitude for James more than asking Snape what happened and was he okay. She had heard one (incorrect) version; she never bothered to hear her best friend's version IMO.

Quote:
He is standing there whole and hearty and defending his friends against the charge of using Dark Magic.
And so she need not care, you're saying, if I understand what you wrote. I disagree. I expect more from people who say they are friends, best friends.


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Spotlight on Snape and Molly

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Last edited by The_Green_Woods; March 21st, 2010 at 1:45 pm.
  #364  
Old March 21st, 2010, 9:10 pm
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Re: Snape and Lily: Joint Character Analysis v.4

Quote:
Originally Posted by The_Green_Woods View Post
Obviously not agreeing with everything the person I love asks of me. I don't know if I can define love correctly, but I can say that disagreeing with one's lover/friend is certainly not an indication of lack of love or respect. IMO.
Under normal circumstances, yes, it's reasonable and natural for a person to expect that a friend would accept their decisions. However, when said friend is becoming involved in something dangerous, prejudicial and illegal, a good friend will advise them against it. Not say "Oooh you want to join a racist gang? Well, I'm a member of the group they target, but it's your decision, so I'll support you as a good friend".

Quote:
I think Snape loved Lily in spite of her faults and I think he respected her too, though he also disagreed with her on a few things. I don't think such disagreement takes away anything from Snape or the love he had for her.
I don't see that teenage Snape respected Lily -he used the word Mudblood against her - which says he considered her inferior. That's what the word means, we're told in canon and nothing in canon denies the meaning of that word. He goes on to join a group of people who want to eradicate people of her birth. I don't see the respect.

Quote:
For me understandable was the circumstance. I also understand that the word was unforgivable. I don't blame Lily was breaking with Snape because of this; I simply wonder what made her accept this racial insult before.
I'm sorry, I don't think a racial insult is ever understandable, under any circumstance.

Quote:
Then one wonders why Lily did not take it up when Snape was calling Muggleborns by that name.
Perhaps she didn't know, until her housemates told her after the Mudblood incident.

Or, if she did know, this incident brought her to her senses.
Just as it brought Snape to his senses to discover that his information had led to Voldemort hunting down Lily. There's a huge difference, I think, in the things it took to cause them to wake up and smell the coffee. That's assuming Lily did know about Snape insulting others with that word.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pearl_Took View Post
And for a long time she cared for him as a friend very much, despite his.
Well said.

Quote:
Like that whole issue of other wizards despising people of her racial blood? Yup, that was certainly quite an area of disagreement between them.


Quote:
Originally Posted by bellatrix93 View Post
It didn't make his love less. Probably, his love wasn't enough, in the first place. . It was not enough to make him totally abandon his DE friends or forget his facinction with the Dark Arts
Good point

Quote:
Originally Posted by eliza101 View Post
Then he had the nerve to go to her and try to say that he was sorry he had called her by the name, not that he was sorry he thought the word was wrong, that being a racist was wrong, that he was wrong. That he was the worst possible friend to her and that he would change.
And by change I mean that he would change because being a racist is a terrible, horrible thing, not because he had called her by that terrible word. He didn't do this. He compounded his error. He said he was sorry for all the wrong things. He said he was sorry for what he did, not for what he thought. Lily did not owe him her understanding or forgiveness, he owed her much, much more.
I agree, Snape needed to change that mindset before Lily could forgive him.
Quote:
"I never meant to call you Mudblood. It just-"
DH, page 542, UK edition. He's apologising for the word, trying to make excuses, instead of apologising for that mindset, and saying that he will try to change that.

Quote:
Originally Posted by eliza101 View Post
Love for whom or should I ask for what? The Lily that existed, a person in her own right? Or the Lily of Snape's fancy? The Lily that did not mind being called a disgusting name or the very real young girl who minded it very much? Snape loves, yes. But what exactly does he love?
That's an interesting point - I find Snape's "I won't let you-" in TPT indicative. As well as ignoring what she has to say about his friends once she insults James Potter. I think Snape held an ideal of Lily, of who he wanted her to be -someone who returned his feelings, not someone who only saw him as a friend until SWM.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Muggle_Magic View Post
She still liked Severus, and tried to steer him away from his dangerous path, also took his defense until he said the unforgivable word, "Mudblood".
I think she realised then that Severus wouldn't be steered away from that path by her advice, it was something he needed to see for himself. Unfortunately, it took something very drastic for him to turn away.

Quote:
After that, and after she married James, Snape's love turned into obsession. It wasn't the kind of selfless love that makes one rejoice at the loved one's happiness, and his jealousy of James, transferred to Harry, was stronger than his love for Lily. Yes, he put himself in deadly danger, and ended up dying for his love's son. Yes, his Patronus was his love's Patronus. But imo, his kind of love was not a healthy kind of love, nor a "friendly" kind of love.
That's how I see it, especially as he asked Dumbledore to protect Lily - he didn't care about her husband and child. If it was truly a selfless love, he would have wanted the people most important to her to be safe, too.

Quote:
Sorry if I'm repeating things that have been said dozens of times before, I didn't read the whole of this thread, and none of the previous versions.
I reckon most things said here on this thread have been said before, I wouldn't worry about it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by The_Green_Woods View Post
@Snape loved Lily :: I think Snape loved Lily. I don't think she was a Lily who took a different shape in Snape's mind or someone who existed only in his dreams. I think Snape loved Lily despite her faults (the biggest one and one unforgivable IMO being the lack of concern when she meets Snape for the first time after he was nearly killed); loving her for what she was, rather than for what he wanted her to become IMO.

Snape shows himself quite happy once she calls James Potter a toerag. She agrees with his opinion on the Marauders, who are only housemates to Lily at this stage. He then goes on to ignore her concerns about his friends - brushing it off as a laugh, having no interest once she had criticised James Potter. As eliza says, Severus Snape was in good health, she had no reason to fuss over him. Plus, how do we know this is the first time they met after the werewolf incident?


Quote:
Originally Posted by The_Green_Woods View Post
Actually Snape could have seized his chance here to really show Lily the type of pranks the Marauders played for fun. He could have ignored Dumbledore and told Lily what happened IMO.
And it would also show him as quite obsessed -listening to Sirius' advice, of all people, to go somewhere forbidden and dangerous just out of determined curiosity?
All of that didn't excuse what his friends did to Mary MacDonald. It seems to me that Snape only cares about someone being hurt or offended when it affects him negatively. Lily didn't see why he was obsessed with the Marauders in this regard -both before and after the werewolf incident, it seems. She considered them gits and left it at that.


Quote:
And so she need not care, you're saying, if I understand what you wrote. I disagree. I expect more from people who say they are friends, best friends
I expect more from best friends too - such as not considering them inferior, such as listening to their advice, such as not despising their child.


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  #365  
Old April 3rd, 2010, 10:40 pm
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Re: Snape and Lily: Joint Character Analysis v.4

oh this is a tough one. i think that it was kind of stupid that Snape was obsessed with purebloods but then there are so many other things adding to the problem... im confused


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  #366  
Old April 5th, 2010, 5:06 pm
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Re: Snape and Lily: Joint Character Analysis v.4

1. Why do you think Snape was so reluctant to approach Lily? Would he have been interested in her if she had not been magical? There's a lot of theories dealing with Snape, whether he had a "Mudblood" type of hating yet, or not.
However....I think he was shy, and possibly gone through the whole "Love at First Sight". There's not too much to say for this, as I have no idea...

2. Why did Lily accept Snape's friendship? Would she have been as friendly to him if he had not told her about the magical world? I think she would accepted it no matter what, really. Someone was reaching out to her, and she was friendly enough to acknowldge it.
I think him telling her of the magickal world, just strengthened the friendship even more. It left Lily to know a few things about her future, and it satisfied her curiosity. It made her feel like someone accepted her for what she was-and there it was- with a boy she met that one day in the playground.

3. What role did each of them play in the friendship? Do you think it was a friendship of equals? Roles? Like...sociological roles? In that case, I think Their separate houses must have influenced their friendship, quite a bit.
Equals? Nuh uh. However, it doesn't really say anything about this. Wait. Nevermind. Snape saw Lily something way more than a friend. A Love. Lily only saw him as a friend.
Though, it was unequal in terms of being strained. One differing interest, really drove them apart- the Dark Arts. That's all that happened, that caused it to crumble. IMO, I think it could have been something a lot more, than just one simple interest.

4. How did Hogwarts effect the friendship? We see that up until fifth year they consider themselves to be "best friends", despite the house system. Do you think they both worked to maintain the friendship?
See above. ^

6. What was the death knoll for the friendship? Was it Snape's budding interest in the Dark Arts, the mudblood insult or something else? It was definitely the Mudblood insult. It was already strained, as stated above, because I have no doubt the he was in the Dark Arts, before he learned of Voldemort's ring of Death Eaters. Sometimes that happens. People get into something dark, and without realizing it, go deeper.

7. Was there a different choice Snape could have made to save the friendship? Was there a different choice Lily could have made? I think Lily was at fault, based on what I've read in DH, before the Mudbllod incident. I have the same problem sometimes, with people thinking of me. I'm like Snape: I'm currently deeply interested in religions like LaVey's, and even Magick. So Lily really reminds me of some people would look at one interest, and associate you with something even worse. Like being a Marilyn Manson fan-some people call us Satanists in general. Labelling you before you consider yourself as part of a group/religion/whatever. I can identify with him; what he probably went through.
However, I don't think this interferes so much with Lily's character. She simply wanted the best for him, IMO. I think she possibly could have approached him differently with the hatred of the Dark Arts.

However, I think Snape should have definitely not said "Mudblood" in the SWM scene. That just sent the doomed friendship into ending, IMO. It truly hurt her feelings.

8. How would their lives have been different if they had managed to save their friendship? Do you think they might have had a romantic future? A lifelong friendship? Hmmm...I'll have to think on this one.

(all IMO, except for what is in the Canon)


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Last edited by Slytherin_12; April 5th, 2010 at 5:15 pm. Reason: Trying to not make it so one-sided...
  #367  
Old April 16th, 2010, 6:24 pm
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Re: Snape and Lily: Joint Character Analysis v.4

*closed and archived*

Since this thread is no longer being used and Snape and Lily's relationship persistently discussed in the Snape character analysis thread anyway, I think this thread has run its course and we can do without it.


 
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