Login  
 
 
Go Back   Chamber of Secrets > Forum Archives > Post DH References

Snape and Lily: Joint Character Analysis v.3



View Poll Results: Did Snape take Lily's concerns about his Slytherin friends seriously?
Yes, he just covered it up because he had no choice. I blame the sorting. 19 6.91%
Partly. He seemed to have been convinced that he was right and Lily wasn't. 68 24.73%
No, his (re)actions show that he did not listen to her. He was too busy being jealous of James. 119 43.27%
He became a Death Eater to impress Lily, which shows that he misjudged her character severely. 36 13.09%
I disagree with all options and will explain my opinion in a post. 13 4.73%
I think this poll should have a pony option. 20 7.27%
Voters: 275. You may not vote on this poll

 
 
Thread Tools
  #281  
Old October 20th, 2008, 1:59 am
PerfectDystopia  Female.gif PerfectDystopia is offline
Fourth Year
 
Joined: 4539 days
Location: in Jayne Mansfield's car
Age: 27
Posts: 544
Re: Snape and Lily: Joint Character Analysis v.3

Quote:
Originally Posted by ignisia
But I would have to say that IMO it is much more likely that James would have walked away if Lily chose someone else than Severus would. It's not a question of how respectful or pure their love for her was-- it's a question of who was needier. James had at least three very close buddies, a possible future in Quidditch, popularity in school, supportive parents, and money. He could have any girl he wanted, and probably would have moved on much easier because he had lots of friends and family to fall back on. Severus did not have that. Psychologically, therefore, it would have been (and was) harder for him to move on.
I disagree whether it is was a question of who was needier, James or Snape? This view ommits Lily, and makes her just a thing that makes people feel better (like a get-well-soon teddy bear or a Tylenol pill). Lily was a person, and I'm sure she had her opinion as well.

I think what Lily wants and needs is important. I don't think it was Lily's love for James that split Snape and Lily, it was the fact Snape wasn't what Lily wanted or needed. This is just my personal opinion and I am sure a bunch of you guys will disagree with me, but I think there's nothing Snape could have given Lily that James couldn't give her (and I think there's a bunch of things James could give Lily that Snape couldn't give her).

I don't want to sound heartless, Snape's parents fighting and Snape's peers scorn for him isn't Lily's problem. It is great and all if she is concerned about those things, but I don't think she has any obliagation to love Snape and make her feel better. If she has every right to walk away from Snape, even if his parets fight and his peers hate him, because she has absolutely no obligation to Snape and his problems.


__________________



Sponsored Links
  #282  
Old October 20th, 2008, 2:36 am
ignisia's Avatar
ignisia  Female.gif ignisia is offline
Leader of the GLITTELUTION
 
Joined: 5119 days
Location: Sitting in a Tin Can
Age: 31
Posts: 4,418
Re: Snape and Lily: Joint Character Analysis v.3

Well, first of all, when I said that, I wasn't saying she needed to love him or anything. Just that he was more likely to value his relationships in a different way because he knew what it was like to be alone and unloved. A person who is lonely is likely to be more grateful for the friendships they get and more willing to keep that relationship going...even when the difficulties seem insurmountable.

But even so, the way I see it, she did have an obligation. It wasn't to love him, obviously. She has every right to fall in love with whoever she wants, especially since she can't exactly control that anyway.

But when the stakes are as high as they were, there is an obligation. Not to love him, not even to remain his friend, but to stop him in any way possible. If she believes he is going to join a bloodist cult that kills and tortures people, that's a big deal. He needs help. He needs to be stopped before he goes out into the world ruins not only other people's lives, but his own.


__________________
I am incapable of hating someone who, instead of using a spell to guard the Sorcerer's Stone, uses a logic puzzle.
I'm sorry.



VIVA LA GLITTELUTION
Looking for a home away from home?
Hogsmeade ~ Apparate.me
Avatar by SIP
  #283  
Old October 20th, 2008, 3:07 am
wickedwickedboy's Avatar
wickedwickedboy  Undisclosed.gif wickedwickedboy is offline
Lycanthrope
 
Joined: 5284 days
Location: Running with the Werewolves
Posts: 9,427
Re: Snape and Lily: Joint Character Analysis v.3

Quote:
Originally Posted by ignisia View Post
Well, first of all, when I said that, I wasn't saying she needed to love him or anything. Just that he was more likely to value his relationships in a different way because he knew what it was like to be alone and unloved. A person who is lonely is likely to be more grateful for the friendships they get and more willing to keep that relationship going...even when the difficulties seem insurmountable.
Which he proved when she ended the relationship and he remained silent. That wasn't insurmountable at all, imo; all he had to say was that their friendship was more important, she was right, and he was going to stop all the dark arts nonsense.

Quote:
But even so, the way I see it, she did have an obligation. It wasn't to love him, obviously. She has every right to fall in love with whoever she wants, especially since she can't exactly control that anyway.

But when the stakes are as high as they were, there is an obligation. Not to love him, not even to remain his friend, but to stop him in any way possible. If she believes he is going to join a bloodist cult that kills and tortures people, that's a big deal. He needs help. He needs to be stopped before he goes out into the world ruins not only other people's lives, but his own.
I think if she were older she may have had some responsibility. But I feel that your opinion asks far too much of a teenager in high school. She was hardly fit to be a counsellor against the dark arts - and her attempts up to that point had failed. Snape finally turned on her in the least physically harmful of his behaviors (his bigotry in calling her a filthy Mudblood). The question is, what would he have "slipped" and done the next time? Sectumsempra? I would have warned Lily to get out much sooner than she did, she is very lucky she was not harmed, imo - and apparently her friends agreed.


__________________
  #284  
Old October 20th, 2008, 3:23 am
arithmancer's Avatar
arithmancer  Undisclosed.gif arithmancer is offline
Assistant to Professor Snape
 
Joined: 5423 days
Location: The Hogwarts Boathouse
Posts: 7,938
Re: Snape and Lily: Joint Character Analysis v.3

Quote:
Originally Posted by wickedwickedboy View Post
I think if she were older she may have had some responsibility. But I feel that your opinion asks far too much of a teenager in high school. She was hardly fit to be a counsellor against the dark arts - and her attempts up to that point had failed.
Lily and Sev attended a school together. They have Heads of House, and a Headmaster, as well as numerous teachers, all of whom are adults. If Sev was aqs dangerous as you paint him, she had an obligation not only to HIM, but to everyone around her, to talk to an adult.

Personally, I think he was no danger to her at all, but she still had the option of seeking an adult's advice.


__________________
The Sorting Hat says I belong in Slytherin.



“Death is the only pure, beautiful conclusion of a great passion.”-D. H. Lawrence

All was well.


Avatar by nerwende, signature art by sigune, used with permission.
  #285  
Old October 20th, 2008, 3:32 am
wickedwickedboy's Avatar
wickedwickedboy  Undisclosed.gif wickedwickedboy is offline
Lycanthrope
 
Joined: 5284 days
Location: Running with the Werewolves
Posts: 9,427
Re: Snape and Lily: Joint Character Analysis v.3

Quote:
Originally Posted by zgirnius View Post
Lily and Sev attended a school together. They have Heads of House, and a Headmaster, as well as numerous teachers, all of whom are adults. If Sev was aqs dangerous as you paint him, she had an obligation not only to HIM, but to everyone around her, to talk to an adult.

Personally, I think he was no danger to her at all, but she still had the option of seeking an adult's advice.
I would agree if I felt that Lily didn't know Dumbledore and all of the professors were well aware of Snape's dark interests as well as his entire group of friends. But I think Lily was aware that the professors knew, but were not doing anything - or failing at whatever they were doing. The kids were not using unforgivables (which you go to Azkaban for), but were using dark magic - and I presume got hefty detention for it - but you would think they would be advised as well in special sessions. Nonetheless, I don't think Lily felt that was a viable option.

I am not sure why you feel she was in no danger. I mean, if Snape can "slip" and call her a filthy little Mudblood, what is to prevent him from slipping and hitting her with the same curse he used in SWM? And in any case, he was a danger to some, so it doesn't matter that it would not be Lily - if she could have done something more, I feel she should have on the behalf of others. But I don't think there was anything she could do.


__________________

Last edited by wickedwickedboy; October 20th, 2008 at 3:36 am.
  #286  
Old October 20th, 2008, 3:41 am
PerfectDystopia  Female.gif PerfectDystopia is offline
Fourth Year
 
Joined: 4539 days
Location: in Jayne Mansfield's car
Age: 27
Posts: 544
Re: Snape and Lily: Joint Character Analysis v.3

Quote:
Originally Posted by ignisia
Well, first of all, when I said that, I wasn't saying she needed to love him or anything.
I was talking about love either romantically or platonically. But I see your point that she didn't need to love him either way.
Quote:
Just that he was more likely to value his relationships in a different way because he knew what it was like to be alone and unloved. A person who is lonely is likely to be more grateful for the friendships they get and more willing to keep that relationship going...even when the difficulties seem insurmountable.
But that's Snape's deal, not Lily. She doesn't have to value the friendship the way Snape does. It is her prerogative, once she isn't being deceitful.

Quote:
But when the stakes are as high as they were, there is an obligation. Not to love him, not even to remain his friend, but to stop him in any way possible. If she believes he is going to join a bloodist cult that kills and tortures people, that's a big deal. He needs help. He needs to be stopped before he goes out into the world ruins not only other people's lives, but his own.
But where is this obligation coming from if she isn't his friend or doesn't even likes him? I get that the obligation isn't to him, but to people he might hurt, but this is a moral obligation and who are we to judge someone else's morals? And maybe Lily try to stop him? I kinda doubt it, but it is still a possibilty.


__________________



  #287  
Old October 20th, 2008, 5:45 pm
The_Green_Woods's Avatar
The_Green_Woods  Undisclosed.gif The_Green_Woods is offline
Always Indy's Girl
 
Joined: 4801 days
Posts: 6,026
Re: Snape and Lily: Joint Character Analysis v.3

Quote:
Originally Posted by PerfectDystopia View Post
I disagree whether it is was a question of who was needier, James or Snape? This view ommits Lily, and makes her just a thing that makes people feel better (like a get-well-soon teddy bear or a Tylenol pill). Lily was a person, and I'm sure she had her opinion as well.
I agree. Even though Snape may have been needier, that was not Lily's problem, once she had already chosen James and rejected Snape IMO.

Quote:
I think what Lily wants and needs is important.
For Lily, yes, I agree.

Quote:
I don't think it was Lily's love for James that split Snape and Lily, it was the fact Snape wasn't what Lily wanted or needed.
I agree with this as well, though I would say only romantically she did not need or want Snape. As a friend he was irreplacable, for after Snape, Lily has no "best friends" IMO. Not that we see in canon anyway IMO.

Quote:
This is just my personal opinion and I am sure a bunch of you guys will disagree with me, but I think there's nothing Snape could have given Lily that James couldn't give her (and I think there's a bunch of things James could give Lily that Snape couldn't give her).
I don't agree with this, for we don't know what Snape could have given her. But I would say Lily did not want from Snape what she wanted from James. That is how I see it, not that James or Snape were able to give her something, because both of them loved her, but the fact was Lily loved only one of them.That was James and that was why she went out with him and married him. She just did not love Snape as she did James IMO.

But I think she shared a friendship with Snape not unlike the friendship James shared with Sirius. In this friendship I would equal Snape and James/Sirius astonishing though it may be, but I think the three of them were loyal to their friends to a fault, only Snape loved Lily romantically, whicle James/Sirius did not and Lily broke off her friendship for her love, while James and Sirius had no such concerns IMO.

Quote:
I don't want to sound heartless, Snape's parents fighting and Snape's peers scorn for him isn't Lily's problem.
It was, as long as she was his friend, but yes, when she decided to move away, she made it no longer her concern IMO.

Quote:
It is great and all if she is concerned about those things, but I don't think she has any obliagation to love Snape and make her feel better. If she has every right to walk away from Snape, even if his parets fight and his peers hate him, because she has absolutely no obligation to Snape and his problems.
I would agree with this, because Lily chose to walk away refusing Snape's friendship, otherwise as his friend, I would very much say that she did have an obligation towards Snape.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ignisia View Post
But even so, the way I see it, she did have an obligation. It wasn't to love him, obviously. She has every right to fall in love with whoever she wants, especially since she can't exactly control that anyway.

But when the stakes are as high as they were, there is an obligation. Not to love him, not even to remain his friend, but to stop him in any way possible. If she believes he is going to join a bloodist cult that kills and tortures people, that's a big deal. He needs help. He needs to be stopped before he goes out into the world ruins not only other people's lives, but his own.
. Not only as a friend, but even if she stopped being his friend, I think she should have, like zg said, gone to the teachers/Dumbledore and told them her suspicions, because she was very, very sure that Snape was going to join the DE after School IMO.

Quote:
Originally Posted by PerfectDystopia View Post
But where is this obligation coming from if she isn't his friend or doesn't even likes him? I get that the obligation isn't to him, but to people he might hurt, but this is a moral obligation and who are we to judge someone else's morals? And maybe Lily try to stop him? I kinda doubt it, but it is still a possibilty.
The obligation of being a past friend, and even if she does not want to acknowledge this friendship, then as a ci5tizen of the WW, in the light of the oncoming war with Voldmeort, whom Snape was planning to join, I would say it becomes more than just an obligation, it becomes a duty of Lily or indeed anybody else to take this to the higher authorities, who, in this case was McGonagall or Dumbeldore IMO.


__________________
The man who, in my opinion, won the war against Voldemort for Harry Potter and the Light! Severus Snape!

There is nothing of which every man is so afraid, as getting to know how enormously much he is capable of doing and becoming - Soren Kierkegaard

Spotlight on Snape and Molly

:indy:
  #288  
Old October 20th, 2008, 6:15 pm
eliza101  Female.gif eliza101 is offline
Banned
 
Joined: 4696 days
Location: Bag End
Posts: 1,605
Re: Snape and Lily: Joint Character Analysis v.3

Snape also had obligations. An obligation not to call his best friend a racial insult. An obligation not to be a jealous nasty prat. (OK, he was fifteen, I'll cut him some slack there). He had a great obligation to the human race not to join a criminal orginization the minute he left school. He had a great obligation to his best friend not to ignore her beliefs. Snape had a lot of obligations which can be summed up succintly, he had an obligation llike the rest of us to be a decent human being of his own free will and not to be shamed into by Dumbledore. IMO



Last edited by eliza101; October 20th, 2008 at 7:02 pm.
  #289  
Old October 20th, 2008, 6:44 pm
The_Green_Woods's Avatar
The_Green_Woods  Undisclosed.gif The_Green_Woods is offline
Always Indy's Girl
 
Joined: 4801 days
Posts: 6,026
Re: Snape and Lily: Joint Character Analysis v.3

Quote:
Originally Posted by eliza101 View Post
Snape also had obligations. An obligation not to call his best friend a racial insult.
For which he was punished by Lily, by losing her friendship. He did not get away calling her names IMO.

Quote:
He had a great obligation to the human race not to join a criminal orginization the minute he left school.
I agree. But he slipped; he went ahead to commit a great mistake that would cost him and others. Lily had left him, she did not want him as a friend, but surely she should have tried to stop him if not from harming himself, because she may not have cared, at aleast from harming others. Knowing that Snape was on his way to become a DE, she should have known that he could harm others including muggles and muggleborns. Knowing that, I think Lily should have tried to stop that by taking the whole thing to the higher authorities IMO.

Quote:
He had a great obligation to his best friend not to ignore her beliefs.
Yes! And who knows, he could have been saved all this shame if only Lily had not ignored his beliefs which she knew was not correct and would lead him into harming others terribly IMO.

Quote:
Snape had a lot of obligations which can be summed up succintly, he had an obligation llike the rest of us to be a decent human being of his own free will
Yes! And that I believe was his story; of a man who rose from utter darkness, all of his own making into the bright light, struggling all alone, without help and mercy or understanding from others, because he realised what he had become, to a decent human being who fulfilled his obligation over the norm as if to atone for the lack of his obligation to the wizarding society while he was young, misguided and still very alone, which led him to make those mistakes in the first place IMO.


__________________
The man who, in my opinion, won the war against Voldemort for Harry Potter and the Light! Severus Snape!

There is nothing of which every man is so afraid, as getting to know how enormously much he is capable of doing and becoming - Soren Kierkegaard

Spotlight on Snape and Molly

:indy:
  #290  
Old October 20th, 2008, 6:53 pm
wickedwickedboy's Avatar
wickedwickedboy  Undisclosed.gif wickedwickedboy is offline
Lycanthrope
 
Joined: 5284 days
Location: Running with the Werewolves
Posts: 9,427
Re: Snape and Lily: Joint Character Analysis v.3

Quote:
Originally Posted by The_Green_Woods View Post
I agree. But he slipped; he went ahead to commit a great mistake that would cost him and others. Lily had left him, she did not want him as a friend, but surely she should have tried to stop him if not from harming himself, because she may not have cared, at aleast from harming others. Knowing that Snape was on his way to become a DE, she should have known that he could harm others including muggles and muggleborns. Knowing that, I think Lily should have tried to stop that by taking the whole thing to the higher authorities IMO.
Do you really believe that Dumbledore was unaware that Lucius, Bella, Snape, Mulciber, Avery, the Lestranges and others were interested in Voldemort and the dark arts? Do you believe that he didn't realize they were going around calling people Mudblood?

I would say Dumbledore was aware of this, just as he was completely aware of waht Draco was up to - to the extent that he knew Draco's soul was 'not yet lost'. I believe Dumbledore kept tabs on all of the kids. The war had started by the time Snape got to school, so he knew all about Voldemort and his lure for Slytherins in general, imo. Lily would not have been telling Dumbledore anything he didn't already know, imo.


__________________
  #291  
Old October 20th, 2008, 7:10 pm
The_Green_Woods's Avatar
The_Green_Woods  Undisclosed.gif The_Green_Woods is offline
Always Indy's Girl
 
Joined: 4801 days
Posts: 6,026
Re: Snape and Lily: Joint Character Analysis v.3

Quote:
Originally Posted by wickedwickedboy View Post
Do you really believe that Dumbledore was unaware that Lucius, Bella, Snape, Mulciber, Avery, the Lestranges and others were interested in Voldemort and the dark arts? Do you believe that he didn't realize they were going around calling people Mudblood?
Lily's point of view should not have been this IMO. Lily's point of view should have been only this :: Snape had been her friend. She was aware and certain that he was planning to join the DEs. Even if she did not want to do anything as the best friend she had been to Snape, she should have done something as a girl who had responsibilities to the world she lived in, to the priciples she believed in. She called dark magic evil and those who practised them equally so; Snape, once he left School was planning to join along with Avery and Mulciber, Voldmeort's organization, which would practise dark magic on everyone IMO.

She should have reported not only Snape, but also Avery and Mulciber IMO. Whether Dumbledore knew or not was not her concern. Her concern was bringing to the notice of those responsible, the actions of her fellow students which she knew about (Avery and Mulciber) and which she suspected (in Snape's case) and were in her opinion extremely negative and alarming IMO.


__________________
The man who, in my opinion, won the war against Voldemort for Harry Potter and the Light! Severus Snape!

There is nothing of which every man is so afraid, as getting to know how enormously much he is capable of doing and becoming - Soren Kierkegaard

Spotlight on Snape and Molly

:indy:
  #292  
Old October 20th, 2008, 7:26 pm
wickedwickedboy's Avatar
wickedwickedboy  Undisclosed.gif wickedwickedboy is offline
Lycanthrope
 
Joined: 5284 days
Location: Running with the Werewolves
Posts: 9,427
Re: Snape and Lily: Joint Character Analysis v.3

Quote:
Originally Posted by The_Green_Woods View Post
Lily's point of view should not have been this IMO. Lily's point of view should have been only this :: Snape had been her friend. She was aware and certain that he was planning to join the DEs. Even if she did not want to do anything as the best friend she had been to Snape, she should have done something as a girl who had responsibilities to the world she lived in, to the priciples she believed in. She called dark magic evil and those who practised them equally so; Snape, once he left School was planning to join along with Avery and Mulciber, Voldmeort's organization, which would practise dark magic on everyone IMO.

She should have reported not only Snape, but also Avery and Mulciber IMO. Whether Dumbledore knew or not was not her concern. Her concern was bringing to the notice of those responsible, the actions of her fellow students which she knew about (Avery and Mulciber) and which she suspected (in Snape's case) and were in her opinion extremely negative and alarming IMO.
Well if you feel that way, then simply imagine she did so. There is no canon indicating she never spoke to Dumbledore about the budding Death Eaters. On the contrary, because she became an Order member - and as one, together with James actually turned some people away from Voldemort, I would imagine she did speak to Dumbledore about it (he was their leader and they would report all of these types of things to him).


__________________
  #293  
Old October 20th, 2008, 7:50 pm
The_Green_Woods's Avatar
The_Green_Woods  Undisclosed.gif The_Green_Woods is offline
Always Indy's Girl
 
Joined: 4801 days
Posts: 6,026
Re: Snape and Lily: Joint Character Analysis v.3

There is no canon that she spoke to Dumbledore either LOL. Perhaps we can assume that she did tell the Order about Snape, I don't think she did, for even Sirius is unaware that Snape was a DE in GOF or even could have been one.

No one seemed to know that Snape was a DE and if Lily did not share that with Sirius or James about it (who if he had known would have surely told Sirius and may have urged Lily to tell this to the Order as well) then I am not sure she would have told Dumbeldore.


__________________
The man who, in my opinion, won the war against Voldemort for Harry Potter and the Light! Severus Snape!

There is nothing of which every man is so afraid, as getting to know how enormously much he is capable of doing and becoming - Soren Kierkegaard

Spotlight on Snape and Molly

:indy:
  #294  
Old October 20th, 2008, 8:09 pm
Kat_Suki's Avatar
Kat_Suki  Female.gif Kat_Suki is offline
Pernicious Blood Traitor
 
Joined: 4282 days
Location: ♥ JAPES Trysting Place
Posts: 1,101
Re: Snape and Lily: Joint Character Analysis v.3

Quote:
Originally Posted by The_Green_Woods View Post
No one seemed to know that Snape was a DE and if Lily did not share that with Sirius or James about it (who if he had known would have surely told Sirius and may have urged Lily to tell this to the Order as well) then I am not sure she would have told Dumbeldore.
Well, Dumbledore did know though. Snape spied and overheard the prophecy and reported to Voldemort. We see the scene where Snape goes to Dumbledore:

"Well, Severus? What message does Lord Voldemort have for me?"..."What request could a Death Eater make of me?"

We do know it was Snape who'd overheard the prophecy, that Aberforth rumbled him and didn't buy his little excuses of being 'lost'...but what did Dumbledore have to go on that Snape, of whom there'd been apparently nothing known about his Death Eater activities, have led Dumbledore to this automatic assumption? Unless he was keeping closer tabs on everyone, even if other members of the Order were out of the Loop {like they were regarding the contents of the Prophecy they were so carefully guarding}?

Perhaps Lily did live up to her personal responsibility, perhaps she didn't, but either way, Snape was ultimately responsible for himself and his own actions.


__________________
Ever notice how it's a penny for your thoughts, yet you put in your two-cents? Someone is making a penny on the deal!



What matters is not the length of the wand, but the magic in the stick.

"So that doesn't clear anything up but it elucidates what I believe. But I don't think it's necessarily going to convince people who have a strong feeling, one way or the other, on the matter. You know what, that's been the case with most of "Harry Potter". I gave my explanation and it just fuels more debate." ~ JK Rowling

'Here he took out the stone that had the power to recall the dead, and turned it thrice in his hand.' ~ Thrice...go Team CoCo.
  #295  
Old October 20th, 2008, 10:59 pm
Moriath's Avatar
Moriath  Female.gif Moriath is offline
MODLY CREW
 
Joined: 5476 days
Location: Neverwhere
Posts: 7,039
Re: Snape and Lily: Joint Character Analysis v.3

Quote:
Originally Posted by The_Green_Woods View Post
Yes! And who knows, he could have been saved all this shame if only Lily had not ignored his beliefs which she knew was not correct and would lead him into harming others terribly IMO.
Yes, I'm really posting in this thread. No, it will probably not happen again.

My two cents: As I see it, if anyone had an obligation to rein Snape in, it would have been Dumbledore or another teacher at Hogwarts. Lily was Snape's friend, not his caregiver or teacher. In my view, it was not her responsibility to teach Snape morals. It's too much to ask of a child (and Lily was only a teenager). Snape befriended her and that alone should have stopped him from having prejudices against Muggle-borns. Lily was the best example that Muggles and Muggle-borns were nothing like what Death Eaters and pure-blood supremacists painted them. And Lily told him repeatedly that she didn't like his friends because of what they did. Snape and Lily's friendship was one between equals, so neither of them should be expected to teach and guide the other. Moreover, sometimes leaving is the only way to get through to someone. Snape did apparently not take Lily's worries in regard to his friends seriously. The only choice she had, in my view, was to sever their ties, so that he would realise how serious she was and that the path he was following was wrong. I think that she would have renewed their friendship if she had seen a change. If Snape had stopped being friends with Avery and co. she would probably have approached him once again. But this of course speculation, since none of this happened.

Another point I would like to make is that the concept of Lily being responsible to save Snape has a bitter taste concerning feminism. The morally superior woman who has to guide and educate the man until he repents his sins and redeems himself, so that he can receive his prize - the morally superior woman - is outdated, in my view. If Lily had been the one who had become a Death Eater and if she had been the one who had called Snape a racial slur, a lot of readers would not be so willing to forgive her and consider her worthy of Snape's friendship, methinks. But again, this is only a theory, since the characters are what they are.



Last edited by Moriath; October 20th, 2008 at 11:26 pm. Reason: now with grammar
  #296  
Old October 20th, 2008, 11:21 pm
Pearl_Took's Avatar
Pearl_Took  Female.gif Pearl_Took is offline
Zonko's Employee
 
Joined: 4572 days
Location: The Shire
Posts: 3,634
Re: Snape and Lily: Joint Character Analysis v.3

Quote:
Originally Posted by Moriath View Post
Yes, I'm really posting in this thread. No, it will probably not happen again.


Quote:
My two cents: As I see it, if anyone had an obligation to rein Snape in, it would have been Dumbledore or another teacher at Hogwarts. Lily was Snape's friend, not his caregiver or teacher.


Quote:
In my view, it was not her responsibility to teach Snape morals. It's too much to ask of a child (and Lily was only a teenager). Snape befriended her and that alone should have stopped him from having prejudices against Muggle-borns. Lily was the best example that Muggles and Muggle-borns were nothing like the Death Eaters and pure-blood supremacists painted them. And Lily told him repeatedly that she didn't like his friends because of what they did. Snape and Lily's friendship was one between equals, so neither of them should be expected to teach and guide the other. Moreover, sometimes leaving is the only way to get through to someone. Snape did apparently not take Lily's worries in regard to his friends seriously. The only choice she had, in my view, was to sever their ties, so that he would realise how serious she was and that the path he was following was wrong. I think that she would have renewed their friendship if she had seen a change. If Snape had stopped being friends with Avery and co. she would probably approached him once again. But this of course speculation, since none of this happened.
This is my interpretation of how Rowling presents this friendship and its tragic breakdown in canon.

Quote:
Another point I would like to make is that the concept of Lily being responsible to save Snape has a bitter taste concerning feminism. The morally superior woman who has to guide and educate the man until he repents his sins and redeems himself, so that he can receive his price - the morally superior woman - is outdated, in my view.
Another reason why I am not a fan of the 'Lily should have saved Severus' theory, like it was all down to her and Severus was just a passive victim going along with the flow, like he himself wasn't making his own personal decisions and moral choices along the way.

I sometimes wonder whether people forget just how young they both are when the friendship finally, tragically, breaks down. They're only fifteen. I sometimes get the impression that fans think Lily should have been much more mature than she really is, at the mere age of 15.

Personally, it makes me very sad to think of 15 year old Snape's desolation at having lost the one person in his life who seemed to really accept him and who herself was emotionally 'normal'. But I don't think that was all Lily's fault.

From the way JKR portrays the Snape/Lily friendship, it seems to me that strains were in the relationship for a long time, right from when they were children ... Snape's social and emotional awkwardness, the unfortunate anti-Muggle feelings he had clearly inherited (not obvious to Lily when they were both younger) and their separate Sortings all came into play. But it's not a harmonious relationship we see in canon ... although I do believe that the affection Lily had for Severus, and the love he had for her, were both completely genuine, as per JKR's intention (or so I believe).


__________________
  #297  
Old October 21st, 2008, 12:05 am
eliza101  Female.gif eliza101 is offline
Banned
 
Joined: 4696 days
Location: Bag End
Posts: 1,605
Re: Snape and Lily: Joint Character Analysis v.3

Also it has to be borne in mind the great stigma in British schools against 'sneaking', demostrated so beautifully in the OOTP by Hermione. Lily would not have tattled on her former friend to a teacher. It just is not done. A DE is bad. a 'grass' is worse. What the heck WERE the teachers doing. It has always puzzled me, the children are there 9 months out of the year and they get NO moral guidence. I'm not speaking about religious teaching, just plain and simple 'calling people racial insults will not be tolerated, bigotry is banned at this school because it is wrong.' The teacher were in loco parentis, I think is the word and not one strikes me as the kind a child could go to when they are in trouble. It's always struck me as strange


  #298  
Old October 21st, 2008, 1:29 am
ignisia's Avatar
ignisia  Female.gif ignisia is offline
Leader of the GLITTELUTION
 
Joined: 5119 days
Location: Sitting in a Tin Can
Age: 31
Posts: 4,418
Re: Snape and Lily: Joint Character Analysis v.3

I would compare the situation to this: If you somehow hear two men plotting a murder, it is your obligation as a citizen to go to the police. Normally, the police will be able to help you. If they're not doing their duty, that isn't your problem. BUT you can't exactly let the conspirators kill someone, so you need to go through other channels, like friends or neighbors. I'd consider it highly negligent to either not go to the police or to just let authority break down and allow the murder to happen.

So yes, it was mainly Dumbledore's duty if he knew about it (which is likely). But it is also Lily's duty to go to as many other people as she could if she was aware that Dumbledore wasn't doing his job. Apathy and inaction are not options when a murderous cult is gathering followers among your classmates.

And either way, the canon we have shows Lily giving up on Snape when he stopped behaving like a friend. Eliza101 went into this briefly, but it's a general pattern in HP that the kids do not run to adults when they have a concern. When Hermione did in PoA, Ron and Harry would not speak to her. Does the same rule apply to Lily? Did she keep Snape's aspirations to herself? Or did she break with tradition and tell an adult? What was done in response? We don't have answers to these questions, and can only guess...


__________________
I am incapable of hating someone who, instead of using a spell to guard the Sorcerer's Stone, uses a logic puzzle.
I'm sorry.



VIVA LA GLITTELUTION
Looking for a home away from home?
Hogsmeade ~ Apparate.me
Avatar by SIP
  #299  
Old October 21st, 2008, 2:17 am
arithmancer's Avatar
arithmancer  Undisclosed.gif arithmancer is offline
Assistant to Professor Snape
 
Joined: 5423 days
Location: The Hogwarts Boathouse
Posts: 7,938
Re: Snape and Lily: Joint Character Analysis v.3

[quote=Pearl_Took;5162765I sometimes wonder whether people forget just how young they both are when the friendship finally, tragically, breaks down. They're only fifteen. I sometimes get the impression that fans think Lily should have been much more mature than she really is, at the mere age of 15.[/QUOTE]

She was some 7-8 months short of 17, actually. So was he. An age at which she was 7-8 months short of her legal majority, in the society in which she lived. I'm not sure what maturity has to do with this, actually, as not shutting the door in the face of a friend who has come to speak to me strikes me as something a much younger child can understand. Did she have an obligation to stick with Snape, who was running with the wrong crowd who had wrong and dangerous political views, no matter what? Of course not. This does not mean we must approve all aspects of her handling of the breakup. I don't. If she did not fear for her health and safety, hearing him and clearly expressing her positions is something she should have done. If she did, as someone suggested, then taking Snape's problems to adult authority would be her responsibility not only to him, but to all the people around him.


__________________
The Sorting Hat says I belong in Slytherin.



“Death is the only pure, beautiful conclusion of a great passion.”-D. H. Lawrence

All was well.


Avatar by nerwende, signature art by sigune, used with permission.

Last edited by arithmancer; October 21st, 2008 at 3:10 am.
  #300  
Old October 21st, 2008, 2:41 am
wickedwickedboy's Avatar
wickedwickedboy  Undisclosed.gif wickedwickedboy is offline
Lycanthrope
 
Joined: 5284 days
Location: Running with the Werewolves
Posts: 9,427
Re: Snape and Lily: Joint Character Analysis v.3

Quote:
Originally Posted by zgirnius View Post
She was some 7-8 months short of 17, actually. So was he. An age at which she was 7-8 months short of her legal majority, in the society in which she lived I'm not sure what maturity has to do with this, actually, as not shutting the door in the face of a friend who has come to speak to me strikes me as something a much younger child can understand. Did she have an obligation to stick with Snape, who was running with the wrong crowd who had wrong and dangerous political views, no matter what? Of course not. This does not mean we must approve all aspects of her handling of the breakup. I don't. If she did not fear for her health and safety, hearing him and clearly expressing her positions is something she should have done. If she did, as someone suggested, then taking Snape's problems to adult authority would be her responsibility not only to him, but to all the people around him.
Perhaps she did go to Dumbledore or McGonagall; we don't have her story. But to assume she did not I feel does her a grave disservice. In addition, to assume that she felt it would help, also does her a grave disservice because in my view, Dumbledore and McGonagall already knew and Lily knew they knew. Dumbledore knew all about Draco remember...? Remember his response to Harry when Harry went to him about Draco possibly being a Death Eater? Harry was very much less than pleased with the results.

But I really am having a hard time trying to understand where any obligation on Lily's part is relevant. Some people would not have stood by a friend of his ilk for 5 years attempting to show him the light - all the while being ignored. To me, she did way more than any reasonable person would for a person who behaved in the manner Snape did toward her. His behavior toward others and his dark arts fascination together with his friends had already been a huge burden on her school life. Imagine making excuses to your friends while trying to show someone the light - and they are not listening. It would become downright depressing, which is why I believe we saw Lily eschewing his company after the OWL exam - she was already pulling away, imo - because of how it affected her. His obligation as a friend was to not place such a huge burden upon her, but he did it anyway, quite recklessly, and did nothing to rectify that either. But then again, he was also only 16.


__________________

Last edited by wickedwickedboy; October 21st, 2008 at 3:05 am.
 
Go Back  Chamber of Secrets > Forum Archives > Post DH References

Bookmarks

Tags
character analysis, lily evans potter, severus snape


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is On


All times are GMT +1. The time now is 1:39 pm.


Powered by: vBulletin, Copyright ©2000 - 2020, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Original content is Copyright © MMII - MMVIII, CoSForums.com. All Rights Reserved.
Other content (posts, images, etc) is Copyright © its respective owners.