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Snape and Lily: Joint Character Analysis v.3



View Poll Results: Did Snape take Lily's concerns about his Slytherin friends seriously?
Yes, he just covered it up because he had no choice. I blame the sorting. 19 6.91%
Partly. He seemed to have been convinced that he was right and Lily wasn't. 68 24.73%
No, his (re)actions show that he did not listen to her. He was too busy being jealous of James. 119 43.27%
He became a Death Eater to impress Lily, which shows that he misjudged her character severely. 36 13.09%
I disagree with all options and will explain my opinion in a post. 13 4.73%
I think this poll should have a pony option. 20 7.27%
Voters: 275. You may not vote on this poll

 
 
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  #241  
Old October 18th, 2008, 3:21 am
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Re: Snape and Lily: Joint Character Analysis v.3

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Originally Posted by Nympfadora13 View Post
He did not become a death eater to impress her, if he knew that she was muggleborn, why would he think that that would impress her? Snape's smarter than that!!
Bloomsbury ChatNithya: Lily detested mulciber,averyif snape really loved her,why didnt he sacrifice their company for her sake
J.K. Rowling: Well, that is Snape's tragedy. Given his time over again he would not have become a Death Eater, but like many insecure, vulnerable people (like Wormtail) he craved membership of something big and powerful, something impressive.
J.K. Rowling: He wanted Lily and he wanted Mulciber too. He never really understood Lily's aversion; he was so blinded by his attraction to the dark side he thought she would find him impressive if he became a real Death Eater.


Quote:
Originally Posted by zgirnius View Post
As I see it, James had difficulty merely staying with his small, loving family for a short while when there were adventures out there to be had. Snape, on the other hand, was willing to work at a job he did not particularly care for, risk his life, and protect the son of a woman who did not love him for sixteen years out of the love he felt. Now that impresses me.
As WWB has said, James had trouble being inside the house, not that he didn't like being with his family. He thrice defied Voldemort so it's understandable that he would be frustrated stuck in a house for such a long time. Anne Frank and her family were frustrated with being in the "annex" (for lack of a better word), but that doesn't mean they loved each other any less.

I disagree that Snape loves Lily more because he had more trials to overcome. It wasn't James' fault he never did because he never went to the dark side. IMO it isn't fair to argue that Snape loves Lily simply because he had more obstacles.


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  #242  
Old October 18th, 2008, 8:21 am
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Re: Snape and Lily: Joint Character Analysis v.3

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Originally Posted by Beatifically View Post
As WWB has said, James had trouble being inside the house, not that he didn't like being with his family. He thrice defied Voldemort so it's understandable that he would be frustrated stuck in a house for such a long time. Anne Frank and her family were frustrated with being in the "annex" (for lack of a better word), but that doesn't mean they loved each other any less.
Wow, that is so weird, when I read Zgirnuis' quote I thought about Anne Frank and her family. I actually went and looked up the passages where she was writing about the problems she was having with the old man she had to share her room with. (Theme from the Twilight Zone plays softly in the background.)


  #243  
Old October 18th, 2008, 11:43 am
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Re: Snape and Lily: Joint Character Analysis v.3

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Originally Posted by ignisia View Post
I believe that what caused Severus' inability to forget Lily was more the fact that she was one of the few stable sources of love he received in his childhood. For someone who lacked that companionship throughout a great deal of his early years, I think it would make a deeper impression on his mind and heart.
I agree with this. I believe that JKR depicts Snape as love-starved, which explains why he is so emotionally damaged.

However, I also agree with what Wicked says here, because it is possible for me to hold various ideas about Snape and his feelings for Lily in tension:

Quote:
Originally Posted by wickedwickedboy View Post
The more I think about it, the more I have to suspend my disbelief when it comes to Snape supposedly loving Lily. Publicly, it empowered him to help Dumbledore and carry out some brave acts in that regard. But on a personal level, the one where love really shines, he utterly failed Lily, imo. He mistreated her beloved son; belittled her beloved husband before her orphan, showed very little compassion to those around him and behaved in a mean-spirited and overall negative manner, imo. To me, that is what Snape's unrequited love instilled in him; a humongous amount of jealousy, which I feel invariably is exhibited as hatred toward those one is jealous of.
To me Snape's love for Lily is a mixture of dark and light. Light, because his commitment to protect her surviving child turned his life around from being a Death Eater. But there are great patches of darkness because somehow he can never bring himself to forgive James for those childhood cruelties and injustices (and without wanting to get into yet another tedious fight about this, I do believe there were some. Snape didn't make all that stuff up out of thin air) or for taking Lily from him (as Snape would have seen it.) He should never have taken out that stuff on Harry though.

Quote:
The fact that Snape allowed his jealousy, resulting from his inability to stand in James shoes and have his own son stand in Harry's shoes, to get the better of him, is the crux of the strangeness of his emotions, imo. Instead of delighting in and loving the flesh of her flesh, Harry, her son and the only living reminder of Lily; Snape was ruled by his jealousy and hatred, over and above any 'loving' feelings he had toward Lily, and considered him only as the son of her husband, who he was jealous of and hated, in my judgment. To me, that is a very selfish, self-centered and possessive form of love. While I do place his emotions for Lily in the category of love, I feel it is very much on the outskirts of the true meaning of that emotion. True, pure, love, should make you feel joyous and happy, compassionate and liberated, and enable you to extend those feelings it engenders towards others - at least some of the time. Other forms of love are more troubling, in my opinion, and Snape's love for Lily was of one of the most troubling types to me - and I don't generally refer to it as "love" - although I realize that is the category of emotion it is based in.
I would not dispute any of that. However, I also firmly believe that Snape was committed to protecting Harry, despite his bitter personal feelings about the boy, and didn't swerve from that. That is clearly JKR's intention in this whole plotline, it's made clear in the Prince's Tale, and so I take it at face value.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Beatifically View Post
As WWB has said, James had trouble being inside the house, not that he didn't like being with his family. He thrice defied Voldemort so it's understandable that he would be frustrated stuck in a house for such a long time. Anne Frank and her family were frustrated with being in the "annex" (for lack of a better word), but that doesn't mean they loved each other any less.
I sympathise with James Potter in this predicament. I am pretty claustrophobic, and if I were shut up in a safe house with the people I loved most in the world for our own safety, because a bunch of genocidal racist nutters were out to target us, I am sure it would drive me slowly crazy. It certainly took its toll on poor Anne and her family.

To James' credit, he tried to hide his frustration and unease from Lily but of course it showed.

Quote:
I disagree that Snape loves Lily more because he had more trials to overcome. It wasn't James' fault he never did because he never went to the dark side. IMO it isn't fair to argue that Snape loves Lily simply because he had more obstacles.
I would go along with that. I don't believe that Snape loved Lily more than James did.

And I'm a Snape fan.


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  #244  
Old October 18th, 2008, 12:14 pm
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Re: Snape and Lily: Joint Character Analysis v.3

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pearl_Took View Post

To me Snape's love for Lily is a mixture of dark and light. Light, because his commitment to protect her surviving child turned his life around from being a Death Eater. But there are great patches of darkness because somehow he can never bring himself to forgive James for those childhood cruelties and injustices (and without wanting to get into yet another tedious fight about this, I do believe there were some. Snape didn't make all that stuff up out of thin air) or for taking Lily from him (as Snape would have seen it.) He should never have taken out that stuff on Harry though.
I respect your view, but I don't feel that is the gist of it at all. His treatment of Harry was not propelled by his enemy relationship with James; it was propelled by jealousy - otherwise he would have been belittling Sirius, Harry's godfather, left and right, because Sirius was equally an enemy if not more so when they were younger,imo. I feel Snape forgave himself for all of his youthful cruelties and injustices against the Marauders, PLUS his adult cruelty of helping to kill James. Apparently he also came to grips in some regard when it came to Sirius; as he would only vent when he met up with the guy. But he went off on James, when the score was FAR more than even in his favor (you can't do much more than help kill the person other than pull the trigger yourself - especially when that person had risked their life to save yours). So I feel Snape's problem was jealousy, which makes his hatred for both James and Harry unfair.

That is the basis for my comment and indeed, all of my comments. Snape's love for Lily was tainted by all of that, imo.

Quote:
I would not dispute any of that. However, I also firmly believe that Snape was committed to protecting Harry, despite his bitter personal feelings about the boy, and didn't swerve from that. That is clearly JKR's intention in this whole plotline, it's made clear in the Prince's Tale, and so I take it at face value.
I am being very frank when I say that my interpretation of both the books and Jo's comments leads me to believe that Snape's protection of Harry was shaky at best. I agree 100% that he was committed to keeping his promise, but that was for Lily - and actually keeping it was another thing altogether. How can we possibly conclude that Snape actually protected Harry, consistently, when Harry required protection from Snape? He required it in the classroom (which he didn't get) and when Snape whipped him (which he got from Buckbeak) and when Snape went off on him in his office (which he didn't get) and when Snape stopped the Occlucmency lessons (which he didn't get), etc. So that is why I say it is shaky at best; because there were a couple of occassions when Snape overtly did try to protect Harry and he was even successful in of the three attempts. Snape did protect Harry via his spying, so that is what is on the other side of 'shaky', imo.

Lily, I do not believe, would be pleased at all with Snape's behavior toward her son. Like Harry and most people, she'd find his spying brave and well done and be grateful for his 3 attempts to protect Harry - but the overwhelming majority of Snape's behavior and acts toward Harry are not what one expects from someone who claims to love them, imo. I mean answer this: how would Snape have treated Harry if he hated Lily? The same way, imo. .


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Last edited by wickedwickedboy; October 18th, 2008 at 12:32 pm.
  #245  
Old October 18th, 2008, 5:34 pm
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Re: Snape and Lily: Joint Character Analysis v.3

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Originally Posted by Pearl_Took View Post
I would go along with that. I don't believe that Snape loved Lily more than James did.
To see if Snape loved Lily more than James or if James loved Lily more than Snape, I would choose by their attitudes if Lily was with the other IMO.

I saw what Snape did when Lily chose James over him. Snape moved away and continued to love her, but he never tried to break up their relationship or anything like that IMO.

James too loved Lily I agree. But would he have stepped away had Lily chosen Snape over him, respecting Lily's wishes and her preference for another man that was not him? IMO he would not. And I say this because I saw how much James attacked Snape, because he was jealous of Snape's friendship with a girl he liked/loved. I really don't know if he would restrain himself and keep away, if Lily had chosen Snape over him IMO.

Quote:
Originally Posted by wickedwickedboy View Post
I I mean answer this: how would Snape have treated Harry if he hated Lily? The same way, imo. .
He would have treated Harry the same way, because he was the spy; he could not have treated the BWL in any other way IMO. But if he had hated Lily, the memories would have been different IMO. Naturally there would not be memories of his love for Lily; Snape would have given the memories of his work for Dumbledore and the Order and he would have passed on the message IMO.


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  #246  
Old October 18th, 2008, 6:11 pm
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Re: Snape and Lily: Joint Character Analysis v.3

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Originally Posted by The_Green_Woods View Post
To see if Snape loved Lily more than James or if James loved Lily more than Snape, I would choose by their attitudes if Lily was with the other IMO.

I saw what Snape did when Lily chose James over him. Snape moved away and continued to love her, but he never tried to break up their relationship or anything like that IMO.
I can agree and disagree with this.

To me, Harry really wanted to be with Ginny but never once knowingly made an outward move to interfere between she and Dean. It would have been totally inappropriate for Harry to have done that.

Where did we see Lily choose James over Snape, though? We saw, according to the text that Lily rejected James's bullying behavior; she also terminated Snape's friendship over his calling her a mudblood and those he kept friends with, his fellow Slytherins and future Death Eaters.

We "hear" that in seventh year that Lily and James began to date, after James had shrunk his head and stopped attacking people indiscriminately. We "hear" that Severus never lost an opportunity to curse James and that James didn't take that lying down, but would jinx Severus back and this behavior is intimated to have occurred during the time that James/Lily were dating. Even so, there is no clear canon that says Snape did/didn't interfere with Lily/James, IMO.

Quote:
James too loved Lily I agree. But would he have stepped away had Lily chosen Snape over him, respecting Lily's wishes and her preference for another man that was not him? IMO he would not. And I say this because I saw how much James attacked Snape, because he was jealous of Snape's friendship with a girl he liked/loved. I really don't know if he would restrain himself and keep away, if Lily had chosen Snape over him IMO.
To me, the canon based in Snape's Worst Memory, shows that 5th year James Potter was enamored of Lily Evans and that Snape loved her.

We know from Jo's interview comment, that some of James's animosity toward Snape is because of this. To me, though, this is also a type of reverse proof that Severus's behavior towards James was also because of 'unexpressed' feelings for Lily, except that at that point in time, Snape's feelings went much deeper than James's did.

Hallows, The Prince's Tale"Why are you so obsessed with them anyway? Why do you care what they're doing at night?"
"I'm just trying to show you they're not as wonderful as everyone seems to think they are."

*SNIP*

"You're not going to---I won't let you---"

*SNIP*

"I didn't mean---I just don't want to see you made a fool of---He fancies you, James Potter fancies you!" The words seemed wrenched from him against his will. "And he's not---everyone thinks...big Quidditch hero---" Snape's bitterness and dislike were rendering him incoherent.
Here we have Snape seemingly warning off Lily from possible interest in James. Honestly, if that isn't 'interference' due to Snape's jealousy (even if it's prior to the start of Lily/James dating) then I don't know what is.

It was only two years later that James and Lily began to date; they left school and sometime after that married and had Harry. We never "see/hear" James interfere with Lily and any of her potentially unnamed "boyfriends" (remember that she was quite popular) nor do we see/hear of Snape's reaction to any of those potentially unnamed "boyfriends", either.

Quote:
He would have treated Harry the same way, because he was the spy; he could not have treated the BWL in any other way IMO.
I agree to a point, we see Dumbledore council Snape in regards to this, in a manner of speaking, when he tells Snape that Harry is not to know that it is he that is giving him Gryffindor's Sword because Voldemort might read Harry's mind and see Snape acting on Harry's behalf. Secrecy was absolutely essential.

Secrecy, however, does not mean that Snape had to treat Harry like he was something foul to be scraped off the bottom of his shoe. All that is required is that Harry not know that Snape was acting to protect him. It was not necessary that he openly ridicule Harry in Potions class, that he slash Harry with a spell for calling him a 'coward', that he destroy Harry's classwork in order to give him a failing grade, that he give him detention designed specifically (in Harry's opinion) to give regular jolts in the stomach by reading his father/Sirius names coupled with their (IMO numerous) petty misdeeds. Secrecy never required Snape having a go at Harry's father in front of him.

Quote:
But if he had hated Lily, the memories would have been different IMO. Naturally there would not be memories of his love for Lily; Snape would have given the memories of his work for Dumbledore and the Order and he would have passed on the message IMO.
If he'd hated Lily then, IMO, there'd be no story of Harry Potter at all. He'd changed sides to protect Lily. If he hated her then what need would there be for him to change sides? IMO, he' not have taken the steps to protect Lily, Voldemort would not have given her the opportunity to step aside, he'd have killed all of them without blinking and there'd have been no "Boy Who Lived".


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Last edited by Kat_Suki; October 18th, 2008 at 6:31 pm. Reason: Spelling Mistakes
  #247  
Old October 18th, 2008, 6:18 pm
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Re: Snape and Lily: Joint Character Analysis v.3

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Originally Posted by wickedwickedboy View Post
I feel Snape forgave himself for all of his youthful cruelties and injustices against the Marauders, PLUS his adult cruelty of helping to kill James.
I'll have to let the first point go, because while Snape was no angel in his teens, I don't think his bitterness against the Marauders was entirely without foundation. He certainly had a case to answer for when it came to the murder of adult James, having had an indirect hand in leading Voldemort straight to Lily and James.

Quote:
Lily, I do not believe, would be pleased at all with Snape's behavior toward her son. Like Harry and most people, she'd find his spying brave and well done and be grateful for his 3 attempts to protect Harry - but the overwhelming majority of Snape's behavior and acts toward Harry are not what one expects from someone who claims to love them, imo. I mean answer this: how would Snape have treated Harry if he hated Lily? The same way, imo. .
I agree that Snape has a case to answer to Lily for the way he treated Harry in the classroom. Definitely.

Quote:
Originally Posted by The_Green_Woods View Post
To see if Snape loved Lily more than James or if James loved Lily more than Snape, I would choose by their attitudes if Lily was with the other IMO.

I saw what Snape did when Lily chose James over him. Snape moved away and continued to love her, but he never tried to break up their relationship or anything like that IMO.

James too loved Lily I agree. But would he have stepped away had Lily chosen Snape over him, respecting Lily's wishes and her preference for another man that was not him? IMO he would not. And I say this because I saw how much James attacked Snape, because he was jealous of Snape's friendship with a girl he liked/loved. I really don't know if he would restrain himself and keep away, if Lily had chosen Snape over him IMO.
Well, that's a very good point.

But this isn't about which man is better. It's about who loved Lily more. I have to say that for me James wins on that score, because while Snape always loved Lily, he was unable to accept her husband and son (even though he worked for her son's protection).

Quote:
He would have treated Harry the same way, because he was the spy; he could not have treated the BWL in any other way IMO. But if he had hated Lily, the memories would have been different IMO. Naturally there would not be memories of his love for Lily; Snape would have given the memories of his work for Dumbledore and the Order and he would have passed on the message IMO.
I don't understand this. If he had hated Lily, he wouldn't have cared less if she, James and Harry had died at Voldemort's hands, so there would have been no Boy Who Lived, no story, and no memories.


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  #248  
Old October 18th, 2008, 6:39 pm
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Re: Snape and Lily: Joint Character Analysis v.3

I would say that both James and Severus loved Lily equally. While we don't have much information on James and Lily's relationship, we can assume that they had a pretty healthy marriage for the few years they were together. And Severus' feelings for her are unquestionably strong-- to the point where he both lived and died for her and her son.

But I would have to say that IMO it is much more likely that James would have walked away if Lily chose someone else than Severus would. It's not a question of how respectful or pure their love for her was-- it's a question of who was needier. James had at least three very close buddies, a possible future in Quidditch, popularity in school, supportive parents, and money. He could have any girl he wanted, and probably would have moved on much easier because he had lots of friends and family to fall back on. Severus did not have that. Psychologically, therefore, it would have been (and was) harder for him to move on.


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  #249  
Old October 18th, 2008, 6:43 pm
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Re: Snape and Lily: Joint Character Analysis v.3

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Originally Posted by ignisia View Post
But I would have to say that IMO it is much more likely that James would have walked away if Lily chose someone else than Severus would. It's not a question of how respectful or pure their love for her was-- it's a question of who was needier. James had at least three very close buddies, a possible future in Quidditch, popularity in school, supportive parents, and money. He could have any girl he wanted, and probably would have moved on much easier because he had lots of friends and family to fall back on. Severus did not have that. Psychologically, therefore, it would have been (and was) harder for him to move on.


That just made me very teary-eyed. It's so sad to think of Snape, or anyone else for that matter, to be so terribly needy and always alone.


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  #250  
Old October 18th, 2008, 7:05 pm
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Re: Snape and Lily: Joint Character Analysis v.3

Quote:
Originally Posted by The_Green_Woods View Post
To see if Snape loved Lily more than James or if James loved Lily more than Snape, I would choose by their attitudes if Lily was with the other IMO.

I saw what Snape did when Lily chose James over him. Snape moved away and continued to love her, but he never tried to break up their relationship or anything like that IMO.
Canon is questionable on this imo. We know that Snape starting hexing James in the seventh year when James had already deflated his head and stopped hexing people just for the fun of it (and also was dating Lily, so therefore he wouldn't have the jealousy factor to attack Snape). We also know that Snape asked Voldemort to spare Lily in exchange for her husband and son. IMO, I definitely think he was trying to get rid of Lily's family here so that it would one day be possible for him to swoop back in. I know that not everyone shares this opinion, but it is mine nonetheless. So I disagree that Snape never tried to break Lily and James up - respect like this is something I do not see at all.

Quote:
James too loved Lily I agree. But would he have stepped away had Lily chosen Snape over him, respecting Lily's wishes and her preference for another man that was not him? IMO he would not. And I say this because I saw how much James attacked Snape, because he was jealous of Snape's friendship with a girl he liked/loved. I really don't know if he would restrain himself and keep away, if Lily had chosen Snape over him IMO.
Yes, jealousy was a factor when James hexed Snape, but did you also noticed that Snape cut James' cheek open RIGHT after James asked Lily out (something Snape just couldn't seem to bring himself to do, no matter how much he wanted to)?. I don't think the timing here is a coincidence. I think Snape was definitely jealous of James, it it caused him to do things like shoot Sectumsempra at his cheek, and later hex James when he started dating Lily.

Quote:
He would have treated Harry the same way, because he was the spy; he could not have treated the BWL in any other way IMO. But if he had hated Lily, the memories would have been different IMO. Naturally there would not be memories of his love for Lily; Snape would have given the memories of his work for Dumbledore and the Order and he would have passed on the message IMO.
Snape wouldn't have given anything to Dumbledore imo, because the only reason Snape switched sides was for Lily. I still don't believe he actually ended up standing for what the Order was actually fighting for. IMO, it was just because of Lily.


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  #251  
Old October 18th, 2008, 7:13 pm
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Re: Snape and Lily: Joint Character Analysis v.3

Quote:
Originally Posted by The_Green_Woods View Post
James too loved Lily I agree. But would he have stepped away had Lily chosen Snape over him, respecting Lily's wishes and her preference for another man that was not him? IMO he would not. And I say this because I saw how much James attacked Snape, because he was jealous of Snape's friendship with a girl he liked/loved. I really don't know if he would restrain himself and keep away, if Lily had chosen Snape over him IMO.
I would disagree with this idea because it starts to put Snape's love and James' love as a contest. I don't have an opinion if either of them loved Lily more than the other. IMO, James' behavior at fifteen is hardly a good example to use because we know James changed from then and he was infatuated with her then. How he would have behaved when he was in love is a different story and we don't have enough canon to back that up, IMO.

I am just against the idea that one loves Lily more than the other. They both made sacrifices for Lily and we got to see more of Snape's. That does not mean that James loved Lily any less. Lily married James but that does not mean Snape loved Lily any less.

I do agree with ignisia that it would have been easier for James to move on. Snape had no one except Lily and she was gone, which explains his behavior. (But, as I said before, this isn't a guarantee that one loved Lily more than the other.)


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  #252  
Old October 18th, 2008, 7:24 pm
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Re: Snape and Lily: Joint Character Analysis v.3

I agree that it's kind of silly to make it a contest of who loved Lily more--especially since we don't even have adequate information. Both loved her in their own way, anyway.

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Originally Posted by Kat_Suki View Post


That just made me very teary-eyed. It's so sad to think of Snape, or anyone else for that matter, to be so terribly needy and always alone.
*hands out tissues*


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  #253  
Old October 18th, 2008, 8:21 pm
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Re: Snape and Lily: Joint Character Analysis v.3

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Originally Posted by DeliciousMoon View Post
I still don't believe he actually ended up standing for what the Order was actually fighting for. IMO, it was just because of Lily.
Well, I personally do believe that we get to see Severus grow and change, that that growth and change is in part due to the death of Lily. IMO it is his grief that leads to his "standing for what the Order was fighting for", even if he isn't the most amiable Order member.

We get to see in canon a different side of Severus. He tell's Phineas 'do not use that word' (mudblood). He expresses shock at the thought of Harry being kept alive only to be killed at the right time and Dumbledore asks 'how many men and women have you watched die' to which Snape responded "Lately, only those whom I could not save'. Like Charity Burbage the Muggle Studies teacher, did he mean? And who else had he saved? Like Remus Lupin, whom he tried to save by casting the Sectumsempra at another Death Eater? Admittedly he missed, but he did try and that attempt did save Remus while injuring George Weasley.

The memory we see of Dumbledore's comment "I sometimes think we Sort too soon..." and Snape looking "stricken" by the comment, this plays directly into what Jo tells us in an interview: "Given his time over again he would not have become a Death Eater."


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  #254  
Old October 18th, 2008, 8:30 pm
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Re: Snape and Lily: Joint Character Analysis v.3

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Originally Posted by Kat_Suki View Post
If he'd hated Lily then, IMO, there'd be no story of Harry Potter at all. He'd changed sides to protect Lily. If he hated her then what need would there be for him to change sides? IMO, he' not have taken the steps to protect Lily, Voldemort would not have given her the opportunity to step aside, he'd have killed all of them without blinking and there'd have been no "Boy Who Lived".
. I was not proposing this as a story alternative! This was merely a hypothetical to be considered outside of the storyline. If Snape hated Harry's mother, his behavior toward Harry would not have to change from what it was, and the mistreatment and cruelty would still be understandable.

In as far as overall story; sure, if Snape hadn't asked Voldemort to spare Lily, and he also hadn't determined to keep her alive on his own, then there would be no boy who lived as they would all die. However, if we are looking at hypos, if Snape didn't exist, he wouldn't have taken the prophecy to Voldemort and there would be 'the boy who lived' because Voldemort would have never targeted him in the first place. That is why Snape's request of Voldemort is a sham necessity to the storyline in my judgment - it was his doing in the first place that the Potters were targeted at all.


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  #255  
Old October 18th, 2008, 8:30 pm
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Re: Snape and Lily: Joint Character Analysis v.3

General answer because there have been many posts in response to mine.

I gave my answer in response to Pearl_Took's statement where she had said that "I don't believe that Snape loved Lily more than James did."

For which I answered how I'd go about it.

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Originally Posted by Kat_Suki View Post
Where did we see Lily choose James over Snape, though?
Romantically we don't. For she never did. But James IMO was jealous of her frienship to Snape and I fel he did not respect that friendship. I feel he was the aggressor, simply because he had the back up and support of not only his friends but his background. He probably cultivated a deeeper enmity towards Snape once he started falling for Lily. But this is my personal opinion and I don't have explicit canon, except What I understand from the books.

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Originally Posted by Pearl_Took View Post
But this isn't about which man is better. It's about who loved Lily more.
No, this isn't about which man was better, I agree.

One quality of love is acceptance IMO. That was something I felt Snape did. He accepted Lily's love for another man. He did not like it, naturally. He wanted to be that man. And he hated James Potter, not Lily's husband. That his hated enemy was the man Lily had chosen to love and marry must have killed him and yet he accepted her desicion, her love for James Potter, which she did not feel for him. He hated the Marauder James Potter and I think he saw no reason to revise his attitude because he was hated in return too IMO.

I don't think, James started liking Snape because he married Lily. I think it was the same with Snape.

They, Snape and James had a past both with and without Lily. James died and so his hatred doied with him. Snape did not die and his hatred stayed alive and I think Snape deliberately stroked it to ensure his enmity with Harry, which would help him in his spy work.

Quote:
I have to say that for me James wins on that score, because while Snape always loved Lily, he was unable to accept her husband and son (even though he worked for her son's protection).
James did not even accept Lily's friendship with Snape and let him be. Until Lily broke off with Snape, James and because of him, the Marauders gave Snape a tough time. (Though I think Snape's the best, I don't think he'd win one on four LOL)

Though, we don't know if he too, would have moved away had Lily chosen Snape.

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I don't understand this. If he had hated Lily, he wouldn't have cared less if she, James and Harry had died at Voldemort's hands, so there would have been no Boy Who Lived, no story, and no memories.
And my answer was in response to WWB's post.

WWB :: I mean answer this: how would Snape have treated Harry if he hated Lily? The same way, imo. . I simply assumed a scene where Snape was the spy for some reason and he hated Lily and answered the question on that basis.

Though we don't know if Snape would have remained a DE all his life. Yeah, sure JKR says so, but personally, I feel that Snape had the potential to change; I saw that he changed because of his love for a girl; had he not loved that girl, perhaps he may not have chnaged at that time, but I won't say he would have never changed, because I don't know; Snape may have got a powerful reason to change a bit later. That could have gone either way IMO.

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Originally Posted by DeliciousMoon View Post
Snape wouldn't have given anything to Dumbledore imo, because the only reason Snape switched sides was for Lily.
I answered this above.

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Originally Posted by Beatifically View Post
I would disagree with this idea because it starts to put Snape's love and James' love as a contest.
I did not mean it that way. Love is very difficult to measure, and one way would be to see how much one was willing to give up for that love. The greater the love the more one would be willing to do for that love.

James died for Lily and Harry; and I have nothing to say that James did not love Lily. I only disagreed with the opinion that James loved Lily more than Snape.

On the contrary, I would agree if anyone had said Lily loved James more than Snape. That was very, very true. That was why she chose James over Snape IMO.

This was what Snape understood IMO and moved away.

But that is not to say that his love for her was in any way less than James's. In my opinion that is.

Quote:
I am just against the idea that one loves Lily more than the other. They both made sacrifices for Lily and we got to see more of Snape's. That does not mean that James loved Lily any less. Lily married James but that does not mean Snape loved Lily any less.
No. It just means that Lily loved James more than Snape IMO.

Quote:
I do agree with ignisia that it would have been easier for James to move on. Snape had no one except Lily and she was gone, which explains his behavior. (But, as I said before, this isn't a guarantee that one loved Lily more than the other.)
If James loved her truly, I think he'd find it as difficult as Snape top move on. He may have had other relationships, perhaps, but I doubt he would have forgotten Lily. True love is supposedly long lasting LOL.

The entire post is my opinion only.


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  #256  
Old October 18th, 2008, 8:32 pm
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Re: Snape and Lily: Joint Character Analysis v.3

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Originally Posted by ignisia View Post
I would say that both James and Severus loved Lily equally. While we don't have much information on James and Lily's relationship, we can assume that they had a pretty healthy marriage for the few years they were together. And Severus' feelings for her are unquestionably strong-- to the point where he both lived and died for her and her son..
I would respectfully disagree. I happen to consider JKR's statements of fact canon and she said James and Lily were the love of one another's lives - so there is no assumption as far as I am concerned, it is canon that Harry's parents were soulmates, much like Harry and Ginny (It isn't like JKR could have made the correlation between the couples any stronger if she'd wanted to, imo.) That to me indicates that their love for one another exceeded anything Snape could ever feel for Lily or Lily for Snape. The product of James and Lily's love speaks for itself: the world's most compassionate and loving child - not possible if Snape was the papa, imo, because of his own damaged background - and we saw how he treated kids. His own child would inherit some of his dispassionate, sarcastic and cruel nature - hardly characteristic of the boy who lived, imo.

Further, in my judgment, Snape did not die for Lily's son. Snape died for the cause and the cause was not all about Harry Potter or Lily Potter, but the entire wizard world, imo. And Snape's willingness to spy, risk his life and even be killed was for Lily - he said so himself, and made it very clear that was the only person he was doing anything for. James and Lily loved their son and one another and died for their son with James sacrificing his life specifically for Lily as well. In my view, there is simply no comparison between the love of that family and the obsessive, possessive and self-centered emotions Snape had for Lily - which were not returned in the least, imo. I think it would minimizes the impact of JKR's series to rubbish if Harry's parents were not incredibly in love (as per fiction) because it snatches the basis for Harry's character from the storyline, limits my understanding of Harry and Ginny's relationship and intimates that unrequited love is something to be valued when it is characterized in the way Snape's was - frought with jealousy, hatred, mistreatment and cruelty to Harry, obsession and possessiveness. I feel Snape's emotions for Lily were characterized as such and imo, JKR was not saying that was a good thing - only that it was good for Snape because it was enough to motivate him to do what he did for Dumbledore.


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Last edited by wickedwickedboy; October 18th, 2008 at 8:56 pm.
  #257  
Old October 18th, 2008, 8:56 pm
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Re: Snape and Lily: Joint Character Analysis v.3

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Originally Posted by wickedwickedboy View Post
. I was not proposing this as a story alternative! This was merely a hypothetical to be considered outside of the storyline. If Snape hated Harry's mother, his behavior toward Harry would not have to change from what it was, and the mistreatment and cruelty would still be understandable.
No, I agree with you. If Snape had hated Lily, his behavior toward Harry would have been what we saw through out the books.

Quote:
In as far as overall story; sure, if Snape hadn't asked Voldemort to spare Lily, and he also hadn't determined to keep her alive on his own, then there would be no boy who lived as they would all die. However, if we are looking at hypos, if Snape didn't exist, he wouldn't have taken the prophecy to Voldemort and there would be 'the boy who lived' because Voldemort would have never targeted him in the first place.
Well, if we go that far into hypotheticals though, there'd not be a "boy who lived" because Voldemort wouldn't have targeted Harry, hit him the the Avada Kedavra, and marked him as his equal. So although Harry'd have been alive, he wouldn't have been "The Boy Who - Was Hit By The Killing Curse And - Lived".

Wow, as Jo said, this really is like Macbeth. Or like Neo and the broken vase.

Quote:
That is why Snape's request of Voldemort is a sham necessity to the storyline in my judgment - it was his doing in the first place that the Potters were targeted at all.
I agree.


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What matters is not the length of the wand, but the magic in the stick.

"So that doesn't clear anything up but it elucidates what I believe. But I don't think it's necessarily going to convince people who have a strong feeling, one way or the other, on the matter. You know what, that's been the case with most of "Harry Potter". I gave my explanation and it just fuels more debate." ~ JK Rowling

'Here he took out the stone that had the power to recall the dead, and turned it thrice in his hand.' ~ Thrice...go Team CoCo.
  #258  
Old October 18th, 2008, 9:03 pm
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Re: Snape and Lily: Joint Character Analysis v.3

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Originally Posted by Kat_Suki View Post
No, I agree with you. If Snape had hated Lily, his behavior toward Harry would have been what we saw through out the books.

Well, if we go that far into hypotheticals though, there'd not be a "boy who lived" because Voldemort wouldn't have targeted Harry, hit him the the Avada Kedavra, and marked him as his equal. So although Harry'd have been alive, he wouldn't have been "The Boy Who - Was Hit By The Killing Curse And - Lived".

Wow, as Jo said, this really is like Macbeth. Or like Neo and the broken vase.

I agree.

, I agree...I guess it would have been more like The Boy Who Lived No Thanks to Voldemort. I found the storyline littered with nods to Shakespeare - actually in many respects. When it comes to Lily and Snape's friendship that ended on Lily's part completely at 15 - and Snape continuing to have emotions for her, I see strains of that in Measure for Measure. But JKR added many twists and turns. Snape's emotions for Lily were quite singular in ways, due to his character, imo.


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  #259  
Old October 18th, 2008, 9:15 pm
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Re: Snape and Lily: Joint Character Analysis v.3

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Originally Posted by wickedwickedboy View Post
In my view, there is simply no comparison between the love of that family and the obsessive, possessive and self-centered emotions Snape had for Lily - which were not returned in the least, imo. I think it would minimizes the impact of JKR's series to rubbish if Harry's parents were not incredibly in love (as per fiction) because it snatches the basis for Harry's character from the storyline, limits my understanding of Harry and Ginny's relationship and intimates that unrequited love is something to be valued when it is characterized in the way Snape's was - frought with jealousy, hatred, mistreatment and cruelty to Harry, obsession and possessiveness. I feel Snape's emotions for Lily were characterized as such and imo, JKR was not saying that was a good thing - only that it was good for Snape because it was enough to motivate him to do what he did for Dumbledore.
I respect your view, but I have to disagree with this, in particular the suggestions that Snape's emotions were "obsessive, possessive and self-centered" and that unrequited love is portrayed as not "something to be valued".

As I see it, Snape's love for Lily is portrayed as the least self-centred thing about him and Harry's speech about it to Voldemort is, in my view, phrased in such a way as to romanticise it.

Yes, at times Snape shows "jealousy, hatred, mistreatment and cruelty to Harry", but I see no evidence that any of these things is portrayed as being a direct result of the unrequited nature of his love. Snape is portrayed as being engaged in a mutual feud with James long before he is a serious rival for Lily's hand, so I don't think any of these emotions/actions can be entirely attributed to Snape's love for Lily. And in HP people whose love is returned also exhibit jealousy and hatred of their rivals (e.g. Ron's jealousy of Krum, Mrs Weasley's unhappiness when Arthur flirts with Mme Delacour, Harry's urge to punch Dean Thomas when he sees him kissing Ginny). Requited love can also be selfish (e.g. couple like the Dursleys and the Malfoys, who are happy in their own family relationships and don't give a hang about anyoen outside the family unit)

Are you saying that Snape would be a better, less self-centred person if he had got over Lily, moved on and married a nice pureblood girl, as Voldemort recommended?

His love for Lily doesn't make him perfect, but IMO it makes him a much better person than he would have been without it.

Quote:
When it comes to Lily and Snape's friendship that ended on Lily's part completely at 15 - and Snape continuing to have emotions for her, I see strains of that in Measure for Measure.
Notably no bedtrick, though - that was more Merope's style. Snape never forced Lily to be with him, and I think the Merope contrast was deliberately included to emphasise this.



Last edited by Melaszka; October 18th, 2008 at 9:17 pm.
  #260  
Old October 18th, 2008, 9:54 pm
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Re: Snape and Lily: Joint Character Analysis v.3

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Originally Posted by ignisia View Post
I would say that both James and Severus loved Lily equally. While we don't have much information on James and Lily's relationship, we can assume that they had a pretty healthy marriage for the few years they were together. And Severus' feelings for her are unquestionably strong-- to the point where he both lived and died for her and her son.

But I would have to say that IMO it is much more likely that James would have walked away if Lily chose someone else than Severus would. It's not a question of how respectful or pure their love for her was-- it's a question of who was needier. James had at least three very close buddies, a possible future in Quidditch, popularity in school, supportive parents, and money. He could have any girl he wanted, and probably would have moved on much easier because he had lots of friends and family to fall back on. Severus did not have that. Psychologically, therefore, it would have been (and was) harder for him to move on.
A very perceptive post, Iggy, as ever.

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Originally Posted by wickedwickedboy View Post
I would respectfully disagree. I happen to consider JKR's statements of fact canon and she said James and Lily were the love of one another's lives - so there is no assumption as far as I am concerned, it is canon that Harry's parents were soulmates, much like Harry and Ginny (It isn't like JKR could have made the correlation between the couples any stronger if she'd wanted to, imo.)
Yes, well, JKR doesn't need to bop me over the head with how much James and Lily love each other because she actually convinced me of that from her story. They seem like a very compatible couple.

Harry and Ginny are another matter entirely, I'm afraid. JKR can tell me they're soulmates until the cows come home, she'll never convince me. From a literary POV, I don't see the H/G romance anything like as important as James/Lily, because James/Lily is a central tragic motif in the series. The H/G romance doesn't even come close. As far as I'm concerned, Harry could have paired off with anyone (except Hermione). But this is not the thread for that. My point is, either we are convinced by the portrayal of a romantic relationship in the series or we are not!

Quote:
That to me indicates that their love for one another exceeded anything Snape could ever feel for Lily or Lily for Snape. The product of James and Lily's love speaks for itself: the world's most compassionate and loving child - not possible if Snape was the papa, imo, because of his own damaged background - and we saw how he treated kids. His own child would inherit some of his dispassionate, sarcastic and cruel nature - hardly characteristic of the boy who lived, imo.
Wicked, as an adopted person, I disagree so much with this statement I hardly know where to begin. It's the old nature v nurture debate, basically, and far outside the remit of this thread. Suffice to say that I emphatically disagree that a troubled parent automatically begets a troubled child: many children of dysfunctional parents fight hard not to emulate their parent's behaviour. And personally I could live with the Boy Who Lived being sarcastic and dispassionate. Harry is capable of being cruel too, isn't he? That Crucio on Carrow, anyone? I'm sorry, but we do see a dark side to Harry in canon. (Which makes him more interesting, of course. I've never seen Harry as a goody two-shoes.) But I'm getting very off-topic here, for which apologies.


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