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Snape and Lily: Joint Character Analysis v.4



View Poll Results: Was Snape a good friend to Lily?
Yes, he couldn't have been a better or more devoted friend. 12 12.90%
Yes. If only she had appreciated him more he wouldn't have joined the DE. 13 13.98%
Kind of. He should have listened to her concerns instead of focussing on his jealousy. 49 52.69%
No. He sympathised with a group of pure-blood supremacist terrorists while he was friends with her. 23 24.73%
Absolutely not. SWM was only the last straw and he'd failed her before. 9 9.68%
Oh dear, that's one hell of a poll. *hides* 19 20.43%
A pony? 20 21.51%
Multiple Choice Poll. Voters: 93. You may not vote on this poll

 
 
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  #281  
Old March 13th, 2010, 9:51 pm
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Re: Snape and Lily: Joint Character Analysis v.4

I had posted this on the Snape thread, but I think it belongs here...

The Prince's Tale, DHSeverus Snape: "I never meant to call you Mudblood, it just —"
Lily: "Slipped out? It’s too late. I’ve made excuses for you for years. None of my friends can understand why I even talk to you. You and your precious little Death Eater friends ... You’ve chosen your way, I’ve chosen mine."


Does this imply that Snape had introduced Lily to the Death Eaters, or their idea?

If yes, then what could be the reason?

Was it Snape's desire of sharing something in common with Lily, or there was more to it?


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  #282  
Old March 13th, 2010, 11:02 pm
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Re: Snape and Lily: Joint Character Analysis v.4

Quote:
Originally Posted by mysterious View Post
I had posted this on the Snape thread, but I think it belongs here...

The Prince's Tale, DHSeverus Snape: "I never meant to call you Mudblood, it just —"
Lily: "Slipped out? It’s too late. I’ve made excuses for you for years. None of my friends can understand why I even talk to you. You and your precious little Death Eater friends ... You’ve chosen your way, I’ve chosen mine."


Does this imply that Snape had introduced Lily to the Death Eaters, or their idea?

If yes, then what could be the reason?

Was it Snape's desire of sharing something in common with Lily, or there was more to it?
Lily's simply referring to Avery and Mulciber IMO, nothing more.


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  #283  
Old March 13th, 2010, 11:22 pm
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Re: Snape and Lily: Joint Character Analysis v.4

Quote:
Originally Posted by snapes_witch View Post
Lily's simply referring to Avery and Mulciber IMO, nothing more.
I, too, have never read it as implying anything more than that.

Severus is not a member of the DEs when the SWM incident happens. So it's unlikely that he had sufficient access to introduce Lily to DEs, especially given that even the real DEs in the First War often don't know who the other DEs are.

So I'm not sure how some punk (or is that goth? ) kid would acquire that secret information and be able to introduce her around.


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  #284  
Old March 13th, 2010, 11:31 pm
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Re: Snape and Lily: Joint Character Analysis v.4

IMO the way Lily addresses Snape's friends (Avery and Mulciber) tells us that she knows something about the Death Eaters. Now she doesn't want to be friends with them, this would only suggest that she doesn't like what they represent. For Lily is not the kind of person who dislikes someone just for their being. If she chose not to be friends with Snape's friends then she must have a reason for that. To have a reason she would need to know the people she is choosing to stay away from. Thus the question how does she know?

There is another alternate explanation that pops into my mind and that is she judged them, based on the changes she observed in Snape.


  #285  
Old March 14th, 2010, 12:44 am
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Re: Snape and Lily: Joint Character Analysis v.4

I don't think Snape actually introduced Lily to Death Eaters, but as the two spend a lot of time together, I don't think it's unlikely that Snape could have told her about them. She probably understood the path Snape wanted to take based on the types of friends he was making.


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  #286  
Old March 14th, 2010, 3:23 am
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Re: Snape and Lily: Joint Character Analysis v.4

I don't personally believe any of those kids were Death Eaters at that time. I think Lily was comparing them to adult Death Eaters because of something they did.

Perhaps she had read about DEs in the newspaper since Voldemort was rising at the time?

I haven't thought about it much, but I doubt that Snape would have called his friends junior Death Eaters. In HBP, Blaise Zabini looks shocked that Draco might be a DE, in spite of his background. And Hermione and Ron don't believe that Draco is one either.

In fact, it could be that Snape smiled at Lily because he didn't believe Mulciber and Avery were capable of being DEs. Naivete isn't just for Harry's generation. JMO


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  #287  
Old March 14th, 2010, 6:52 am
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Re: Snape and Lily: Joint Character Analysis v.4

Quote:
Originally Posted by silver ink pot View Post
I don't personally believe any of those kids were Death Eaters at that time. I think Lily was comparing them to adult Death Eaters because of something they did.

Perhaps she had read about DEs in the newspaper since Voldemort was rising at the time?

I haven't thought about it much, but I doubt that Snape would have called his friends junior Death Eaters. In HBP, Blaise Zabini looks shocked that Draco might be a DE, in spite of his background. And Hermione and Ron don't believe that Draco is one either.

In fact, it could be that Snape smiled at Lily because he didn't believe Mulciber and Avery were capable of being DEs. Naivete isn't just for Harry's generation. JMO
I went back and re-read the whole situation...

The Prince's Tale, DH“I was. I would have done. I never meant to call you Mudblood,
it just —”
“Slipped out?” There was no pity in Lily’s voice. “It’s too late. I’ve made excuses for you for years. None of my friends can understand why I even talk to you. You and your precious little Death Eater friends — you see, you don’t even deny it! You don’t even deny that’s what you’re all aiming to be! You can’t wait to join You-Know-Who, can you?”
He opened his mouth, but closed it without speaking.
“I can’t pretend anymore. You’ve chosen your way, I’ve chosen
mine.”


So yeah they were just aiming to be Death Eaters. But why did Lily specify that she had chosen her way?

Is it because Snape might have asked her to consider what being a Death Eater offered?

Or she was merely completing the statement and specifying that Snape had chosen his path and she didn't want anything to do with it and that the two paths were way too different for them to keep the charade on and continue being friends without the repercussion of their choices.


  #288  
Old March 14th, 2010, 7:28 am
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Re: Snape and Lily: Joint Character Analysis v.4

Quote:
Originally Posted by mysterious View Post
Or she was merely completing the statement and specifying that Snape had chosen his path and she didn't want anything to do with it and that the two paths were way too different for them to keep the charade on and continue being friends without the repercussion of their choices.
Yes, this is what I believe to be the meaning of her statement. We also have their conversation that took place shortly after Sirius's so-called 'trick' in which she complained about his friends attempts to hex Mary McDonald. So this had been building up in her mind for some time and the 'mudblood' incident was the final straw.


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  #289  
Old March 14th, 2010, 8:49 am
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Re: Snape and Lily: Joint Character Analysis v.4

Quote:
Originally Posted by mysterious View Post
ISo yeah they were just aiming to be Death Eaters.
Which was pure speculation at that point by LIly IMO.

Quote:
But why did Lily specify that she had chosen her way?
I think Lily was saying that she had chosen a way that was different from the path she trod upon until that time. Which was as Snape's friend. From the night of the SWM, Lily told Snape that her path was from then on different; she was no longer Snape's friend and so her path was different from what Snape's path was. Snape's path was one, where he and Lily were friends and maybe become more to each other. Lily was definitely not walking on that path from the SWM night onwards IMO.

Quote:
Is it because Snape might have asked her to consider what being a Death Eater offered?
I don't think there's anything in the text to suggest that.


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  #290  
Old March 14th, 2010, 9:13 am
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Re: Snape and Lily: Joint Character Analysis v.4

Quote:
Originally Posted by TGW
Quote:
Originally Posted by mysterious
Is it because Snape might have asked her to consider what being a Death Eater offered?
I don't think there's anything in the text to suggest that.
I don't recall anything in the text that implies that Snape was the one who offered Lily a chance to join Voldemort as a DE. I always thought that came later, and that she and James were offered that chance together as a couple. My reason for believing that is the prophecy which states that Harry would be "born to those who have thrice defied him" and JKR said that was one of the ways they did it.

Link

Quote:
MA: Of Neville's parents. Well, James and Lily, too.

JKR: It depends how you take defying, doesn't it. I mean, if you're counting, which I do, anytime you arrested one of his henchmen, anytime you escaped him, anytime you thwarted him, that's what he's looking for. And both couples qualified because they were both fighting. Also, James and Lily turned him down, that was established in "Philosopher's Stone". He wanted them, and they wouldn't come over, so that's one strike against them before they were even out of their teens.
It's interesting, because obviously Snape defied Voldemort many more times than three - possibly hundreds of times. Maybe the Prophecy should have been more precise about who would help cause Voldemort's downfall and he wouldn't have been so fixated on Harry, who couldn't be killed anyway.

JMO


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  #291  
Old March 14th, 2010, 9:22 am
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Re: Snape and Lily: Joint Character Analysis v.4

Quote:
Originally Posted by silver ink pot View Post
I don't recall anything in the text that implies that Snape was the one who offered Lily a chance to join Voldemort as a DE. I always thought that came later, and that she and James were offered that chance together as a couple. My reason for believing that is the prophecy which states that Harry would be "born to those who have thrice defied him" and JKR said that was one of the ways they did it.
Quote:
MA: Of Neville's parents. Well, James and Lily, too.

JKR: It depends how you take defying, doesn't it. I mean, if you're counting, which I do, anytime you arrested one of his henchmen, anytime you escaped him, anytime you thwarted him, that's what he's looking for. And both couples qualified because they were both fighting. Also, James and Lily turned him down, that was established in "Philosopher's Stone". He wanted them, and they wouldn't come over, so that's one strike against them before they were even out of their teens.
Now that particular statements begs a question, why would Voldemort choose to invite a Mudblood in his ranks, if he was so riveted to the pure-blood supremacy. Could Snape play a contributing role? Was Snape important enough to be heard then?

P.S- I know no canon is available and I am merely asking your opinion.


  #292  
Old March 14th, 2010, 9:32 am
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Re: Snape and Lily: Joint Character Analysis v.4

Quote:
Originally Posted by mysterious View Post
Now that particular statements begs a question, why would Voldemort choose to invite a Mudblood in his ranks, if he was so riveted to the pure-blood supremacy. Could Snape play a contributing role? Was Snape important enough to be heard then?

P.S- I know no canon is available and I am merely asking your opinion.
I seriously doubt it. More likely James and Lily drew attention after being chosen Head Boy and Girl in seventh year. JMO

ETA: It's just as possible that they were targeted after joining the Order at seventeen as well. Snape had nothing to do with them at that point. And he certainly wouldn't have wanted James around as a Death Eater - I can't imagine that...


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  #293  
Old March 14th, 2010, 1:58 pm
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Re: Snape and Lily: Joint Character Analysis v.4

Quote:
Originally Posted by mysterious View Post
Now that particular statements begs a question, why would Voldemort choose to invite a Mudblood in his ranks, if he was so riveted to the pure-blood supremacy. Could Snape play a contributing role? Was Snape important enough to be heard then?
The Potters were Head Boy and Head Girl at Hogwarts. They might have seemed interesting enough on their own merits. And James was a Pureblood.


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  #294  
Old March 14th, 2010, 2:03 pm
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Re: Snape and Lily: Joint Character Analysis v.4

Quote:
Originally Posted by mysterious View Post
Now that particular statements begs a question, why would Voldemort choose to invite a Mudblood in his ranks, if he was so riveted to the pure-blood supremacy. Could Snape play a contributing role? Was Snape important enough to be heard then?

P.S- I know no canon is available and I am merely asking your opinion.
I actually just recently posted on this subject on the Snape thread.

I don't believe that Voldy really DID value purebloods more than other - it was an easy way to get the support of purebloods - but he would have used different reasons to get the support of different people.

It would be stupid of Snape to believe that becoming a DE would impress Lily IF he believed the DEs were only about blood superiority. Many of us scratched our heads over that particular comment by JKR. But after a recent reread of the Madame Malkins scene in bk1. I remembered that even Draco didn't refer to muggleborns as 'inferior' back then - just that they would be 'behind' and out of the loop.

This opinion makes a lot of sense when one considers how young Sev worked to fill Lily in on whatever she didn't know about the Wizarding World before she gets to Hogwarts.

Especially in light of Sev's opinion that a muggleborn can sort into Slytherin - they apparently in his mind just need to be talented enough. Lily already had great talent when Sev met her. She had much more control over her magic that he had. So, all she needs to help her fit in is information that Sev would happily supply.

I believe Snape was 'hooked' by the DEs with a promise that it was intelligence and creativity that Voldy valued. And it's also the only thing that makes sense of Hagrid's comment about Voldy wanting to recruit Lily and James because they were Head Boy and Head Girl.

That means that even as late as Sum'91, someone on the opposite side believed Voldy would value talent over blood. It then seems quite likely that this reason could be used by Voldy's side for recruiting talented non-purebloods.

After all, we later learn that Voldy choose Harry as more of a threat, over a pureblood. So, he obviously didn't actually believe the pureblood agenda himself - he just used it.

So - I would say there is a good deal of canon - it just suggests something different - that Voldy really didn't care for the pureblood agenda at all.


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Last edited by hwyla; March 14th, 2010 at 2:06 pm.
  #295  
Old March 14th, 2010, 2:09 pm
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Re: Snape and Lily: Joint Character Analysis v.4

Quote:
Originally Posted by mysterious View Post
why would Voldemort choose to invite a Mudblood in his ranks, if he was so riveted to the pure-blood supremacy. Could Snape play a contributing role? Was Snape important enough to be heard then?

P.S- I know no canon is available and I am merely asking your opinion.
I think there is some rather relivant cannon

In CoS when Harry finally meets Tom in the chamber Tom makes it that killing muggles is not as important to him as dealing with Harry becasue Harry as a baby had deafeated him.

To me this makes it quite clear that while Tom is happy to go around killing muggles what he is really interested in is anything that helps him - anything at all.

Pure blood ideology might be very important to some DE but to Voldermort it is a tool not his objective - his objective is to defeat death and become the most powerful wizard ever.

Therefore I suspect Snape had nothing to do with it. I sure he would ahve like having Lily around, just as I'm sure that he would ahve hated being forced to put up with Jame's company again and would have hated having thier marriage being (ok I'm struggleing to find the right word here I want to say 'flaunted' or 'rubed in his face' but I don't want to imply that J&L would do so deliberately just that seeing it regularly would e increadably painful to Severus)

EDIT: hwyal & I are saying pretty much the same thing I think, just coming at it from different angles - to be honest if I had seen her post before I posted mine I probably wouldn't have bothered posting mine!


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  #296  
Old March 14th, 2010, 2:25 pm
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Re: Snape and Lily: Joint Character Analysis v.4

Quote:
Originally Posted by hwyla View Post
I actually just recently posted on this subject on the Snape thread.

I don't believe that Voldy really DID value purebloods more than other - it was an easy way to get the support of purebloods - but he would have used different reasons to get the support of different people.

It would be stupid of Snape to believe that becoming a DE would impress Lily IF he believed the DEs were only about blood superiority. Many of us scratched our heads over that particular comment by JKR. But after a recent reread of the Madame Malkins scene in bk1. I remembered that even Draco didn't refer to muggleborns as 'inferior' back then - just that they would be 'behind' and out of the loop.

This opinion makes a lot of sense when one considers how young Sev worked to fill Lily in on whatever she didn't know about the Wizarding World before she gets to Hogwarts.

Especially in light of Sev's opinion that a muggleborn can sort into Slytherin - they apparently in his mind just need to be talented enough. Lily already had great talent when Sev met her. She had much more control over her magic that he had. So, all she needs to help her fit in is information that Sev would happily supply.

I believe Snape was 'hooked' by the DEs with a promise that it was intelligence and creativity that Voldy valued. And it's also the only thing that makes sense of Hagrid's comment about Voldy wanting to recruit Lily and James because they were Head Boy and Head Girl.

That means that even as late as Sum'91, someone on the opposite side believed Voldy would value talent over blood. It then seems quite likely that this reason could be used by Voldy's side for recruiting talented non-purebloods.

After all, we later learn that Voldy choose Harry as more of a threat, over a pureblood. So, he obviously didn't actually believe the pureblood agenda himself - he just used it.

So - I would say there is a good deal of canon - it just suggests something different - that Voldy really didn't care for the pureblood agenda at all.
Quote:
Originally Posted by kittling View Post
I think there is some rather relivant cannon

In CoS when Harry finally meets Tom in the chamber Tom makes it that killing muggles is not as important to him as dealing with Harry becasue Harry as a baby had deafeated him.

To me this makes it quite clear that while Tom is happy to go around killing muggles what he is really interested in is anything that helps him - anything at all.

Pure blood ideology might be very important to some DE but to Voldermort it is a tool not his objective - his objective is to defeat death and become the most powerful wizard ever.

Therefore I suspect Snape had nothing to do with it. I sure he would ahve like having Lily around, just as I'm sure that he would ahve hated being forced to put up with Jame's company again and would have hated having thier marriage being (ok I'm struggleing to find the right word here I want to say 'flaunted' or 'rubed in his face' but I don't want to imply that J&L would do so deliberately just that seeing it regularly would e increadably painful to Severus)

EDIT: hwyal & I are saying pretty much the same thing I think, just coming at it from different angles - to be honest if I had seen her post before I posted mine I probably wouldn't have bothered posting mine!
My bad in not specifying what the postscript in my post was for. When I had said that no canon is available I was referring to the question I had posted about whether Snape could have played a role in the Dark Lord recruiting half-bloods and muggleborns.

I personally support the thought that the whole pureblood supremacy was merely a charade that Voldemort had to keep in order to obtain the support of the wizarding families.

P.S- Nice post both of you.


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Old March 14th, 2010, 3:21 pm
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Re: Snape and Lily: Joint Character Analysis v.4

Quote:
Originally Posted by mysterious View Post
My bad in not specifying what the postscript in my post was for. When I had said that no canon is available I was referring to the question I had posted about whether Snape could have played a role in the Dark Lord recruiting half-bloods and muggleborns.
Okay - I see!

Well canon would probably be against the idea of Snape playing a recruiting role. After all, in bk4 Sirius said that he had no proof that Snape had been a DE. Then in bk6, we hear from Bella, that Snape was not involved in the DEs in a highly visible way.

Both of which make sense when one considers that Voldy wanted him to spy on Albus by getting a position at Hogwarts (bk6). Therefore, Snape could not be seen recruiting. Unless by recruiting one means killing them if they refuse - like Dean Thomas' pureblood father who had married a muggle - however, since Bella complains about his lack of such actions - that is ruled out by canon as well.

In regards to Lily - it would be highly unlikely that Snape would be used to recruit her without James knowing once they became a couple. And if James knew Snape was a DE then Sirius would have known.

As for back while they were still friends - canon doesn't even specify that Snape was a DE then. In fact - canon doesn't even specify that he was very into the 'dark arts' yet in 5th year - since it isn't given as an excuse by James when Lily asks him (bk5), nor used as a taunt by Sirius. Remember that in canon Harry actually LIKES 5th-6th year Sev and likens him to the Weasley Twins (hardly DEs) - even after SectumSempra, Harry tried to 'protect' the Prince by hiding the book. So, while LILY might have believed he was already 'dark', Harry's opinion was different.


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When Dumbledore asked Snape, "If you are prepared..." he didn't mean 'Have your Death Eeater robes returned from the cleaners'.
Everything we've seen Snape do, was done knowing Voldemort WOULD return someday.

And when that day would come, that he had better have the appropriate memories that would enable him to lie to Voldy's face.

Last edited by hwyla; March 14th, 2010 at 3:30 pm.
  #298  
Old March 15th, 2010, 3:03 pm
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Re: Snape and Lily: Joint Character Analysis v.4

this imply that Snape had introduced Lily to the Death Eaters, or their idea?
I think that probably by observation she figured a lot out for herself. I doubt Snape had her talking to any of them. I imagine they would not have encouraged at all his relationship with Lily. I think that he was hoping she'd see them in a different light and would see him as brave and strong, no longer a butt of jokes and ill treatment at home.
If yes, then what could be the reason?

Was it Snape's desire of sharing something in common with Lily, or there was more to it? Perhaps Snape wanted her not only to see that he was brave and strong but that he could take care of himself, and people would be afraid to bully him...


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  #299  
Old March 15th, 2010, 6:26 pm
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Re: Snape and Lily: Joint Character Analysis v.4

I just read this in an interview and I thought it was kind of interesting:

Quote:
Nithya: Lily detested mulciber and avery, if snape really loved her,why didnt he sacrifice their company for her sake?
J.K. Rowling: Well, that is Snape's tragedy. Given his time over again he would not have become a Death Eater, but like many insecure, vulnerable people (like Wormtail) he craved membership of something big and powerful, something impressive.
J.K. Rowling: He wanted Lily and he wanted Mulciber too. He never really understood Lily's aversion; he was so blinded by his attraction to the dark side he thought she would find him impressive if he became a real Death Eater.
I got it from AccioQuote.


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Old March 15th, 2010, 7:35 pm
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Re: Snape and Lily: Joint Character Analysis v.4

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Originally Posted by hwyla
Well canon would probably be against the idea of Snape playing a recruiting role. After all, in bk4 Sirius said that he had no proof that Snape had been a DE. Then in bk6, we hear from Bella, that Snape was not involved in the DEs in a highly visible way.

Both of which make sense when one considers that Voldy wanted him to spy on Albus by getting a position at Hogwarts (bk6). Therefore, Snape could not be seen recruiting. Unless by recruiting one means killing them if they refuse - like Dean Thomas' pureblood father who had married a muggle - however, since Bella complains about his lack of such actions - that is ruled out by canon as well.
But of course there is no canon that Snape ever killed anyone. And I'm sure you didn't mean to imply that.

I think your evidence from the canon that Sirius never suspected Snape of being a DE, and that Bellatrix despised Snape for never "getting his hands dirty" is the best proof that he wasn't recruiting anyone, least of all Lily. JMO


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