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Snape and Lily: Joint Character Analysis v.3



View Poll Results: Did Snape take Lily's concerns about his Slytherin friends seriously?
Yes, he just covered it up because he had no choice. I blame the sorting. 19 6.91%
Partly. He seemed to have been convinced that he was right and Lily wasn't. 68 24.73%
No, his (re)actions show that he did not listen to her. He was too busy being jealous of James. 119 43.27%
He became a Death Eater to impress Lily, which shows that he misjudged her character severely. 36 13.09%
I disagree with all options and will explain my opinion in a post. 13 4.73%
I think this poll should have a pony option. 20 7.27%
Voters: 275. You may not vote on this poll

 
 
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  #41  
Old July 9th, 2008, 7:51 pm
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Re: Snape and Lily: Joint Character Analysis v.3

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Originally Posted by eliza101 View Post
I could concede your point except for one thing, their conversation was not about the Maurauders. Snape brought them up IMO to deflect the conversation away from what his friends were doing.
Yes.
But that has nothing to do with the Marauders' behavior, and everything to do with Severus' own fears. And yes, Lily does not bring them up, but I was speaking of what she says when they are brought up.


And I wouldn't exactly call what Snape was doing there when he said "I won't let you--" bullying (or even a less harsh synonym) for a couple of reasons.

First of all, he seems to make an exception of Lily. He (at first) doesn't call her Mudblood the way he would to someone else and when they are children, he makes a point of mentioning how special she is when he says she has "loads of magic". I don't think he truly would ever want to hurt her. Even when he does hurt her as a DE, he tries everything he can to rectify the damage he did.

Second, his overall tone throughout that part of the conversation doesn't speak of someone threatening. He goes from defensive to desperate, becoming especially desperate when he discovers what Lily thinks of the Werewolf Incident. I think that on some level, he saw what was going on between James and Lily and did not trust James. Hence the "I just don't want to see you made a fool of". Something along those lines, I think, was what he originally wanted to end the sentence with before she interrupted him.


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  #42  
Old July 9th, 2008, 8:25 pm
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Re: Snape and Lily: Joint Character Analysis v.3

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Originally Posted by ignisia View Post
Yes.
But that has nothing to do with the Marauders' behavior, and everything to do with Severus' own fears. And yes, Lily does not bring them up, but I was speaking of what she says when they are brought up.
What she said showed her anger at Snape's prejudicial attitude toward Remus and his desire to act upon it, in my judgment. Evidently, she did not want him to press the matter. How exactly was Lily in the wrong by what she said? You've made the accusation in three posts, but never provided text so I am not sure what you are referring to.

Quote:
And I wouldn't exactly call what Snape was doing there when he said "I won't let you--" bullying (or even a less harsh synonym) for a couple of reasons.

First of all, he seems to make an exception of Lily. He (at first) doesn't call her Mudblood the way he would to someone else and when they are children, he makes a point of mentioning how special she is when he says she has "loads of magic". I don't think he truly would ever want to hurt her. Even when he does hurt her as a DE, he tries everything he can to rectify the damage he did.

Second, his overall tone throughout that part of the conversation doesn't speak of someone threatening. He goes from defensive to desperate, becoming especially desperate when he discovers what Lily thinks of the Werewolf Incident. I think that on some level, he saw what was going on between James and Lily and did not trust James. Hence the "I just don't want to see you made a fool of". Something along those lines, I think, was what he originally wanted to end the sentence with before she interrupted him.
I would disagree. I feel it was bullying behavior - not in the sense of a threat, but in term of Snape attempting to control Lily. I feel that was Snape's nature and when she was younger, I feel that she went along with his whims because everything was new to her. However, as they began along diverging paths, I feel Lily became less and less accepting and Snape more diplomatic. However, the issue here was her falling for James and that, I believe caused him to react in a stronger fashion, more like when they were young - but Lily was not at all willing to even compromise on being controled - especially by Snape because I feel she did not approve of his behavior, attitude and viewpoint.


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  #43  
Old July 9th, 2008, 9:42 pm
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Re: Snape and Lily: Joint Character Analysis v.3

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Originally Posted by ignisia View Post
Yes.
But that has nothing to do with the Marauders' behavior, and everything to do with Severus' own fears. And yes, Lily does not bring them up, but I was speaking of what she says when they are brought up.


And I wouldn't exactly call what Snape was doing there when he said "I won't let you--" bullying (or even a less harsh synonym) for a couple of reasons.

First of all, he seems to make an exception of Lily. He (at first) doesn't call her Mudblood the way he would to someone else and when they are children, he makes a point of mentioning how special she is when he says she has "loads of magic". I don't think he truly would ever want to hurt her. Even when he does hurt her as a DE, he tries everything he can to rectify the damage he did.

Second, his overall tone throughout that part of the conversation doesn't speak of someone threatening. He goes from defensive to desperate, becoming especially desperate when he discovers what Lily thinks of the Werewolf Incident. I think that on some level, he saw what was going on between James and Lily and did not trust James. Hence the "I just don't want to see you made a fool of". Something along those lines, I think, was what he originally wanted to end the sentence with before she interrupted him.
I respect your opinion but my point is Snape was trying to deflect the conversation. I agree Lily may have had an unconsious attraction to James at that point, but if she had one it was nothing to do with what she was trying to tell Snape. He did not want to talk about what the boys he was hanging around with were doing, so he dragged the Maurauders into the conversation. As Lily said, "What's Potter got to do with anything?". Snape in my opinion knew he could not defend Avery and Mulciber so he deflected the conversation. His own jealousy led him to mention James which led Lily down the path of defending the Maurauders. she may not have known much but she did know they were not practicing Dark Magic.
Snape in this particular scene, to me at least just keeps digging a deeper hole for himself. I just feel sorry for him. Here he is trying to impress the girl of his dreams and all he's doing is bringing her attention to his chief rival. He couldn't have made more mistakes if he'd tried.
As for trying to making amends for hurting her, I do think causing the destruction of a family calls for another way of expressing the circumstances. He caused her to be brutally murdered along with her husband. Her child was left an orphan.
When I read about Snape I see a wasted life that could have been so rich even if he didn't get Lily. He was intelligent, brave and loyal and a darn good double agent.


  #44  
Old July 9th, 2008, 9:55 pm
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Re: Snape and Lily: Joint Character Analysis v.3

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I respect your opinion but my point is Snape was trying to deflect the conversation.
I'm confused. Where do we disagree? I also think that he is trying to deflect the conversation-- perhaps not out of jealousy, but out of defensiveness and fear.

Quote:
As for trying to making amends for hurting her, I do think causing the destruction of a family calls for another way of expressing the circumstances. He caused her to be brutally murdered along with her husband. Her child was left an orphan.
But obviously he can be forgiven for that, especially since he attempted to prevent it from happening and eventually realized his mistakes.


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  #45  
Old July 9th, 2008, 10:10 pm
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Re: Snape and Lily: Joint Character Analysis v.3

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Originally Posted by eliza101 View Post
I respect your opinion but my point is Snape was trying to deflect the conversation. I agree Lily may have had an unconsious attraction to James at that point, but if she had one it was nothing to do with what she was trying to tell Snape. He did not want to talk about what the boys he was hanging around with were doing, so he dragged the Maurauders into the conversation. As Lily said, "What's Potter got to do with anything?". Snape in my opinion knew he could not defend Avery and Mulciber so he deflected the conversation. His own jealousy led him to mention James which led Lily down the path of defending the Maurauders. she may not have known much but she did know they were not practicing Dark Magic.
I agree, which is why I feel Lily was completely in the right throughout that conversation.

Quote:
Snape in this particular scene, to me at least just keeps digging a deeper hole for himself. I just feel sorry for him. Here he is trying to impress the girl of his dreams and all he's doing is bringing her attention to his chief rival. He couldn't have made more mistakes if he'd tried.

As for trying to making amends for hurting her, I do think causing the destruction of a family calls for another way of expressing the circumstances. He caused her to be brutally murdered along with her husband. Her child was left an orphan.

When I read about Snape I see a wasted life that could have been so rich even if he didn't get Lily. He was intelligent, brave and loyal and a darn good double agent.
I think that is a very good point. I too feel that the euphemism 'hurt' does not include the idea that Snape's deed was intentionally more deadly in nature. Snape was aware that some baby and likely its family would be targeted by Voldemort and suffer death and perhaps torture as well (considering the dark lord's methods as seen in Dark Lord Ascending). I feel Snape's attempt to undo what he did was not thorough, but safe in that he went to Dumbledore, who could protect him and warn the Potters, but had proved inefficient over the proceeding years at bringing the dark lord down. I believe Snape then worked 17 years in an attempt to make up for what he'd done to Lily, but not what he'd done to James or Harry, imo.

Thus, I would agree Snape's life proved to be wasted in personal terms because he could have gone on to do great things and had a full life based on the character as written. I think that forgiveness in terms of what Snape did and his attempt to atone is something that will vary from reader to reader. In my view, his act of delivery of the prophecy was unforgivable because he had no regret or remose for what he did to Harry and James. I feel that Harry his mother and father were written as big and compassionate people, who could forgive where it is not merited in a messiah like gesture and they did. However, as a reader without messiah like qualities, I am unable to do so. . But in terms of this thread, that would mean that ultimately Lily (and her family) would have forgiven Snape for all that he'd done, despite the fact that I feel he'd of only wanted forgiveness from her.


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  #46  
Old July 9th, 2008, 10:12 pm
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Re: Snape and Lily: Joint Character Analysis v.3

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Originally Posted by ignisia View Post
I'm confused. Where do we disagree? I also think that he is trying to deflect the conversation-- perhaps not out of jealousy, but out of defensiveness and fear.

But obviously he can be forgiven for that, especially since he attempted to prevent it from happening and eventually realized his mistakes.
I seem to have misunderstood you. If I gave the impression that I thought he was not worthy of forgiveness then I am in the wrong. Snape repented. If he could have forgiven himself it would have been better, I'm sure Lily forgave him in the end. Repentance can be a bitter thing and Snape certainly learned that the hard way. He is like the Prodigal Son in many ways.


  #47  
Old July 10th, 2008, 1:35 am
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Re: Snape and Lily: Joint Character Analysis v.3

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Originally Posted by eliza101 View Post
He is like the Prodigal Son in many ways.
I've expanded on this idea in the Snape thread. Thanks for bringing it up.


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  #48  
Old July 10th, 2008, 5:22 am
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Re: Snape and Lily: Joint Character Analysis v.3

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Originally Posted by wickedwickedboy View Post
I agree, which is why I feel Lily was completely in the right throughout that conversation.
Completely agree.

Quote:
I think that is a very good point. I too feel that the euphemism 'hurt' does not include the idea that Snape's deed was intentionally more deadly in nature. Snape was aware that some baby and likely its family would be targeted by Voldemort and suffer death and perhaps torture as well (considering the dark lord's methods as seen in Dark Lord Ascending). I feel Snape's attempt to undo what he did was not thorough, but safe in that he went to Dumbledore, who could protect him and warn the Potters, but had proved inefficient over the proceeding years at bringing the dark lord down. I believe Snape then worked 17 years in an attempt to make up for what he'd done to Lily, but not what he'd done to James or Harry, imo.

Thus, I would agree Snape's life proved to be wasted in personal terms because he could have gone on to do great things and had a full life based on the character as written. I think that forgiveness in terms of what Snape did and his attempt to atone is something that will vary from reader to reader. In my view, his act of delivery of the prophecy was unforgivable because he had no regret or remose for what he did to Harry and James. I feel that Harry his mother and father were written as big and compassionate people, who could forgive where it is not merited in a messiah like gesture and they did. However, as a reader without messiah like qualities, I am unable to do so. . But in terms of this thread, that would mean that ultimately Lily (and her family) would have forgiven Snape for all that he'd done, despite the fact that I feel he'd of only wanted forgiveness from her.
I agree with you to some extent. I agree that Snape's act of delivering the prophecy to Voldemort is unforgivable - there was nothing he could do to atone for that, IMO because - as you said - he did not have any regrets for what he did to James and Harry. However, I believe that Snape's primary motive in helping Dumbledore was to get revenge against Voldemort because he broke his word and killed Lily. As Jo said, if it had been anyone but Lily, Snape would never have gotten involved. He would have remained a loyal Death Eater to the end in that event. According to Jo, Snape turned on Voldemort because he felt that Voldemort had betrayed him when he killed Lily - and I feel that is demonstrated in the text as well.

I have to disagree about Lily though. I don't think Lily would have been happy with either Snape or Dumbledore for what they did to Harry. I think it is important to remember what Dumbledore's plan actually was - he kept Harry safe so he could be killed at the right time. It wasn't until after Voldemort returned that Dumbledore even had a glimmer of hope that Harry might be able to survive. And, even then, he wasn't completely sure that Harry would survive. And he never told Snape about that possibility at all. He lets Snape believe that Harry is the only one who can kill Voldemort until some time near the end of Harry's sixth year. And then he tells Snape that Harry's death is actually the key to defeating Voldemort - Voldemort must kill Harry himself and then he can be defeated. And Snape willingly goes along with Dumbledore's plan - following every order - believing that the end result will be permanent death for Harry.

So I think Lily would have been furious with both of them. She gave up her life so Harry could live - not so Snape and Dumbledore could use him as a pawn in their game against Voldemort and lead him to his death. I do think she could eventually forgive Dumbledore because he didn't actually want Harry to die and he was happy when he found out there might be a way for Harry to survive - the gleam of triumph. And I think - since she was watching over Harry - she probably knew that Dumbledore's suspicions were right and Harry would survive. However, Snape never knew about any of that. As far as Snape knew, he was sending Harry off to permanent death. And this is after Snape had spent years bullying and tormenting Harry - generally making Harry's life even more miserable.

I don't believe Lily would have felt that was justified either. I think she would have been horrified at the way Snape treated Harry - her only child - as well as the fact that he helped Dumbledore believing that he was sending Harry to a permanent death - particularly after she had given up her life so Harry could live. I think she would have been grateful that it worked out that Harry was able to survive, but the fact remains that Harry's survival didn't have anything to do with Snape. Harry was able to survive because Voldemort used his blood - not because of anything Snape did. Snape believed he was sending Harry off to die - permanently. So I honestly don't believe that Lily would have been very forgiving towards Snape. I know I would be furious at anyone who did things like that to any of my kids.


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  #49  
Old July 10th, 2008, 1:10 pm
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Re: Snape and Lily: Joint Character Analysis v.3

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Originally Posted by meesha1971 View Post
I agree with you to some extent. I agree that Snape's act of delivering the prophecy to Voldemort is unforgivable - there was nothing he could do to atone for that, IMO because - as you said - he did not have any regrets for what he did to James and Harry. However, I believe that Snape's primary motive in helping Dumbledore was to get revenge against Voldemort because he broke his word and killed Lily. As Jo said, if it had been anyone but Lily, Snape would never have gotten involved. He would have remained a loyal Death Eater to the end in that event. According to Jo, Snape turned on Voldemort because he felt that Voldemort had betrayed him when he killed Lily - and I feel that is demonstrated in the text as well.
Actually I believe we agree to a full extent on this. I agree that revenge became Snape's primary goal with respect to Voldemort due to his having killed Lily.

Quote:
have to disagree about Lily though. I don't think Lily would have been happy with either Snape or Dumbledore for what they did to Harry. I think it is important to remember what Dumbledore's plan actually was - he kept Harry safe so he could be killed at the right time. It wasn't until after Voldemort returned that Dumbledore even had a glimmer of hope that Harry might be able to survive. And, even then, he wasn't completely sure that Harry would survive. And he never told Snape about that possibility at all. He lets Snape believe that Harry is the only one who can kill Voldemort until some time near the end of Harry's sixth year. And then he tells Snape that Harry's death is actually the key to defeating Voldemort - Voldemort must kill Harry himself and then he can be defeated. And Snape willingly goes along with Dumbledore's plan - following every order - believing that the end result will be permanent death for Harry.

So I think Lily would have been furious with both of them.
Disagree? We couldn't be more in agreement. . I have always felt that Lily (and James) would be furious - absoluely livid at Snape (and Dumbledore) both for the plan devised/adopted concerning Harry. Lily, I believe would be especially so because she'd attempted so hard as a teenager to pass her values onto her friend, Snape and he Voldemort's plan of becoming a DE to gain stature and importance anyway. I feel Snape's decision threatened her as an Order member and within the course and scope of his work, resulted in her and her husbands deaths. However, I feel Lily would consider Snape's adoption of Dumbledore's plan, his version of the greater good, in an even worse light. That is because in my judgment, she would feel that Snape intentionally chose to adopt the plan this time around, knowing this time around that it would result in the death of her son.

Quote:
She gave up her life so Harry could live - not so Snape and Dumbledore could use him as a pawn in their game against Voldemort and lead him to his death. I do think she could eventually forgive Dumbledore because he didn't actually want Harry to die and he was happy when he found out there might be a way for Harry to survive - the gleam of triumph. And I think - since she was watching over Harry - she probably knew that Dumbledore's suspicions were right and Harry would survive. However, Snape never knew about any of that. As far as Snape knew, he was sending Harry off to permanent death. And this is after Snape had spent years bullying and tormenting Harry - generally making Harry's life even more miserable.
I feel that Lily (and James) knew for certain that Harry would live; however, I don't feel that would have any bearing on how she saw the actions of Snape in this regard because Snape didn't know that Harry might live.

Quote:
I don't believe Lily would have felt that was justified either. I think she would have been horrified at the way Snape treated Harry - her only child - as well as the fact that he helped Dumbledore believing that he was sending Harry to a permanent death - particularly after she had given up her life so Harry could live. I think she would have been grateful that it worked out that Harry was able to survive, but the fact remains that Harry's survival didn't have anything to do with Snape. Harry was able to survive because Voldemort used his blood - not because of anything Snape did. Snape believed he was sending Harry off to die - permanently.
I agree; I don't feel that Lily would see it as justified either on Dumbledore's part (and to be fair, at Kings Cross he didn't feel it was justifiable either). I agree that Harry's survival had nothing to do with Snape - he thought Harry would die. I feel Lily would definitely note that and she would be furious at Snape for adopting the plan for that reason.

Quote:
So I honestly don't believe that Lily would have been very forgiving towards Snape. I know I would be furious at anyone who did things like that to any of my kids.
This is where I think you read something distinct in my idea. I feel that for Harry to have forgiven (which he was shown to have done in the Epilogue), he would have to know that his father and mother too would forgive. And the thing is, we know James would have forgiven Peter along these same lines (POA) as Harry did - and since Lily and James were soulmates, Lily would also likely forgive. Harry, even if he forgave, would not dishonor his mum and dad if he felt they would not have forgiven Snape, in my judgment.

I believe here that JKR was attempting to show the large amount of compassion, capacity for forgiveness, messiah like qualities of Lily (Harry and James) in their ability to overlook all that Snape had done and honor him where many others would not - even though I feel he did not merit it due to the things we spoke of above (and I feel Lily (and her family) also recognized Snape did not merit it). But this is not to be confused with Lily regarding Snape positively, in my view. JKR also said Harry would never go and speak to Snape's portrait if one was made which is how Lily (and James) would react toward Snape as well, in my view. This is because it would be important for Snape to understand that Lily was not a grudge-holding person (like her son and husband) and like them, had a huge capacity to forgive and all of that, but also that she recognized his actions and behavior had been highly negative and inappropriate and more importantly, Snape would have to recognize that.

So rather than holding on to fury, I feel Lily (and James) would show forgiveness in the same way as Harry, and not be opposed to her son honoring the good Snape did (bravely spying, etc.). However, like her son, Lily would not whitewash Snape's past to the extent where Snape felt she had no self-respect in accepting his past behavior with a shrug. That is the point I feel JKR wanted to make and it gave me a new understanding of the Epilogue. I feel Snape's version of honoring Lily's death was disrepectful and deeply flawed and that is something that would be important for Lily (and James) to ensure Snape understood she felt (Harry couldn't do this because he was still in the wizard world - he could only act from his side of the equation - thus not speaking to the portrait).

This is kind of difficult to explain, so I hope I was clear. . In my judgment, JKR went over the top in the naming to make this point, showing the deeply understanding and compassionate nature of the Potter's, including Lily, again, almost god like in their capacity in this regard - it makes them outstanding in this light, imo. But I feel Lily's abilities in this regard (and James) also include rejection of Snape on an interpersonal level (akin to Harry not speaking to the portrait). To do otherwise would be to show disrespect to one's self, imo, which is why JKR wanted to clarify that aspect.

Personally, not having the huge capacity I feel JKR portrayed in Lily, I cannot be as forgiving, etc., however, that is how she wished to paint Lily (and her family) in my opinion in her final attitude toward Snape.


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Last edited by wickedwickedboy; July 10th, 2008 at 1:17 pm.
  #50  
Old July 10th, 2008, 2:13 pm
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Re: Snape and Lily: Joint Character Analysis v.3

Wicked, I have made a response to your post but since my reply had far more to do with Snape in general, rather than Snape and Lily, I've placed it in the Snape character thread instead.


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  #51  
Old July 18th, 2008, 9:15 am
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Re: Snape and Lily: Joint Character Analysis v.3

1. Why do you think Snape was so reluctant to approach Lily? Would he have been interested in her if she had not been magical?
Because he was shy, insecure and probably didn’t have any other friends, so he had no idea what he was supposed to behave like. Besides, he came from a poor family (I think it’s quite obvious in canon), and I have no doubt that the way he was dressed certainly brought a lot of ridicule and humiliation upon him from other kids, so he expectd something of the sort from the Evans sisters (and he was right to expect it).

2. Why did Lily accept Snape's friendship? Would she have been as friendly to him if he had not told her about the magical world?
She accepted the friendship because Snape intrigued her. He was the only one to provide her with an explanation of her strange abilities, and she had no reasons to disbelieve him. If Snape hadn’t told her about the Wizarding world, she would have probably not given him the time of day, seeing as he was so poor and weird.

3. What role did each of them play in the friendship? Do you think it was a friendship of equals?
No, I certainly don’t think so. At least from what I see in canon, they don’t really seem equal to me. Lily obviously has the upper hand – Snape’s the one who needs the friendship, not her. She’s popular, pretty and outgoing (from what I can see), unlike him. She doesn’t depend on the relationship with Sev as much as he does on the relationship with her.

I think, though, that they were quite equal when it came to intelligence. They were both good, extremely gifted and creative students. Apparently they shared the same interests (potions), so they probably always had interesting topics to discuss.

However, judging by the way Lily talks to Snape in almost every single scene, it seems like he constantly has to defend himself as she berates and criticizes him. The scene where Snape brings up the subject of the Marauders and Lily immediately cuts him off is very telling, in my opinion. It’s like Lily wasn’t used to hearing any objections and wouldn’t tolerate if Snape ever tried arguing with her. All of this makes me come to a conclusion that Lily had a rather bossy and domineering character. Whether the friendship lasted or not was entirely up to her.

4. How did Hogwarts effect the friendship? We see that up until fifth year they consider themselves to be "best friends", despite the house system. Do you think they both worked to maintain the friendship?
I think the unhealthy rivalry between Slytherin and Gryffindor had a lot to do with Snape and Lily’s friendship falling apart. Lily was prepared to defend the Marauders even though Snape considered their pranks to be no better than those of his Slytherin friends. Also, Lily’s Gryffindor friends seemed to dislike Snape, which could also have influenced Lily’s thoughts on her “best friend”.

The Slytherins’ treatment of “Mudbloods” and interest in Dark magic obviously didn’t help.

I think they worked hard to maintain their friendship. In other case, they would just have split up in their first or second year. But Sev and Lily remained friends for 5 years after they had come to Hogwarts, in spite of all the pressure. That’s saying something.

5. How did Gryffindor change Lily? How did Slytherin change Snape? Would each have changed in the same way if they had been sorted into another house? Would the friendship have changed as drastically if they were in the same house?
Lily ended up in the House the members of which despised Slytherin on principle. Snape ended up in the House almost all members of which were Death-Eater wannabes. It’s a wonder they managed to cling to their friendship as long as they did.

I think their relationship would certainly have been different if both got sorted into Gryffindor or Ravenclaw. They wouldn’t have to overcome prejudices on a daily basis. But things would have still been difficult for them. The problem of the social status wouldn’t have disappeared magically. Snape would have remained poor, unattractive and unsociable, so Lily would have fallen for someone else, and the friendship would have probably been broken anyway.

6. What was the death knoll for the friendship? Was it Snape's budding interest in the Dark Arts, the mudblood insult or something else?
Snape’s hanging out with the future Death Eaters and Lily’s attraction to James Potter did their job.

7. Was there a different choice Snape could have made to save the friendship? Was there a different choice Lily could have made?
Snape could have refused to have anything to do with his Slytherin mates… But I can see why he didn’t. He was already not on the best of terms with the Marauders, to put it mildly. If he had provoked his Dark Magic-loving, bigoted, influential, pure-blooded Housemates, they would have made his life hell (given that he was a Half-blood and as poor as a church mouse, I can definitely see why he wasn’t too eager to defy the other Slytherins). He could have probably pretended to share their ideology and informed Lily of this necessity, I think. But he chose to defend Mulciber and Avery to Lily’s attacks, which, I think, was an extremely poor choice.

Lily… I’m afraid I don’t see her as a very loyal friend either. She wasn’t at all concerned about Sev’s well-being when she brought up the subject of the Werewolf incident, and her behaviour in SWM was rather strange for a friend, to say the least. So, I guess, where Snape could have been cleverer and more independent, Lily could have been more loyal.

8. How would their lives have been different if they had managed to save their friendship? Do you think they might have had a romantic future? A lifelong friendship?
We know practically nothing about their friendship, so I can only speculate. Judging by what I see in canon, they believed themselves to be the best friends, but weren’t particularly close. Both of them would have outgrown their superficial “friendship”, even if Sev had never become a Death-Eater, IMO.



Last edited by Raelis; July 18th, 2008 at 9:20 am.
  #52  
Old July 18th, 2008, 10:09 am
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Re: Snape and Lily: Joint Character Analysis v.3

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Originally Posted by Raelis View Post
Snape would have remained poor, unattractive and unsociable, so Lily would have fallen for someone else, and the friendship would have probably been broken anyway.
Where is the canon that Lily's opinion of Snape was influenced by his appearance?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Raelis View Post
Lily… I’m afraid I don’t see her as a very loyal friend either. She wasn’t at all concerned about Sev’s well-being when she brought up the subject of the Werewolf incident
But he was unharmed. There would have been no need to show concern after the fact.


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Old July 18th, 2008, 10:10 am
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Re: Snape and Lily: Joint Character Analysis v.3

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Originally Posted by Raelis View Post
She accepted the friendship because Snape intrigued her. He was the only one to provide her with an explanation of her strange abilities, and she had no reasons to disbelieve him. If Snape hadn’t told her about the Wizarding world, she would have probably not given him the time of day, seeing as he was so poor and weird.

No, I certainly don’t think so. At least from what I see in canon, they don’t really seem equal to me. Lily obviously has the upper hand – Snape’s the one who needs the friendship, not her. She’s popular, pretty and outgoing (from what I can see), unlike him. She doesn’t depend on the relationship with Sev as much as he does on the relationship with her.
Very interesting, Raelis. For I always thought until Lily fell for James and started moving away from Snape, their friendship was very much equal. Mainly because Snape would not have repented as he did and love her as he did, until he died, had they not had a friendship that was mutually satisfying. In fact I would also say that Lily too not only knew about the dark arts but also read along with Snape.

If they were not happy with each other, the frienship I feel would have fallen apart much earlier. I thought she was content with Snape and was happy with his friendship, and it is only from JKR that we have news that Lily was a popular girl; we don;t see one close friend apart from Snape as we do for James, Sirius, Harry, Draco even in the books. When she was not with Snape and she was in Gryffindor Tower, I think she hung around with Mary McDonald. But that's it IMO.

We don't see one friend of Lily on page, not when she writes to Sirius in DH. Sirius and Remus don't say anything about her "best friends" or even her friends. I think they did not, because there was only Snape and no other friend she was really close to and that information would have made Harry look at Snape completely differently.

It was only Dumbledore who had promised Snape he would never tell Harry; but no one really tells Harry about his mother's friends, which is surprising IMO. I think Sirius and Remus don't because there weren't other friends apart from Lily IMO.

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I think, though, that they were quite equal when it came to intelligence. They were both good, extremely gifted and creative students. Apparently they shared the same interests (potions), so they probably always had interesting topics to discuss
I agree, same interests including the dark arts IMO acually.

Quote:
However, judging by the way Lily talks to Snape in almost every single scene, it seems like he constantly has to defend himself as she berates and criticizes him. The scene where Snape brings up the subject of the Marauders and Lily immediately cuts him off is very telling, in my opinion. It’s like Lily wasn’t used to hearing any objections and wouldn’t tolerate if Snape ever tried arguing with her. All of this makes me come to a conclusion that Lily had a rather bossy and domineering character. Whether the friendship lasted or not was entirely up to her.
We saw those scenes when they started getting ot know each other, which was probably a whole year before Hogwarts and then, we saw the reasons for the break up. When we came to the werewolf incident, it's Snape who's hanging on to the friendship, desperate to not let go; Lily was not a friend IMO in that memory itself. her reactions are not what a best frined would have.

But between the time of the first memory and the SWM, there were almost 6 years. And Lily and Snape despite being in Houses that were enemies were best friends IMO.

Lily's Gryffindor mates could not satisfy her need for friendship like Snape did, because had they done so, Lily and Snape would not have been best friends for such a long time IMO.

Her love for James Potter decided her friendship with Snape. She knew subconciously that James and Snape would never get along and she chose her love over friendship IMO.

Ironically James chose exactly the opposite when he chose the SK (not the switch); he chose friendship over family IMO.

Of course at the same time Snape was also hanging out with Avery and Mulciber. But I do feel that Lily would have been able to pull him away from being a DE, had she not fallen for James IMO.

She would have slapped him and told him not to do that and I believe Snape would have obeyed. But sadly for Snape, she was not willing to make the effort, because she had started moving away IMO.

I am not blaming her for Snape's mistakes BTW, I only feel, she was not as committed as she was to the frinendship at a time Snape desperately needed it. It was all very sad IMO.

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Lily… I’m afraid I don’t see her as a very loyal friend either. She wasn’t at all concerned about Sev’s well-being when she brought up the subject of the Werewolf incident, and her behaviour in SWM was rather strange for a friend, to say the least. So, I guess, where Snape could have been cleverer and more independent, Lily could have been more loyal.
Lily was not a loyal friend when we see her; because we see her at the end of their friendship; in fact I would go further and say she was not a friend at all at that time. But I would also say that she and Snape were really the best of friends, they enjoyed each other's company and they were very content with each other until then.

Also unlike other friends they would be together not only during School time, but also during holidays; and I don't think they ever got tired of each other and they were very happy with each other IMO.

Quote:
We know practically nothing about their friendship, so I can only speculate. Judging by what I see in canon, they believed themselves to be the best friends, but weren’t particularly close. Both of them would have outgrown their superficial “friendship”, even if Sev had never become a Death-Eater, IMO.
It was "superficial from the time of the werewolf incident; but before that I do think it was very fulfilling IMO.


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  #54  
Old July 18th, 2008, 10:43 am
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Re: Snape and Lily: Joint Character Analysis v.3

Sorry, TGW, but I think there are potential problems in the friendship from the get-go, because of the anti-Muggle prejudice that young Sev had picked up from his upbringing. That is a big factor, and canon shows that very clearly, IMHO. The equality in the friendship is seriously undermined from the beginning by little Severus having to bite his tongue about the anti-Muggle stuff. Of course he loves Lily, so he makes an exception for her ... but this issue is going to grow and grow until it becomes a serious threat to the friendship.

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Originally Posted by The_Green_Woods View Post
In fact I would also say that Lily too not only knew about the dark arts but also read along with Snape.
Where in canon do we have proof of this? From her reaction to Mulciber and Avery's 'evil' magic on Mary, Lily seems to hate the Dark Arts. And where do we see that she 'read about them' along with Snape? There is just no indication in canon of this at all.

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If they were not happy with each other, the frienship I feel would have fallen apart much earlier. I thought she was content with Snape and was happy with his friendship, and it is only from JKR that we have news that Lily was a popular girl; we don;t see one close friend apart from Snape as we do for James, Sirius, Harry, Draco even in the books. When she was not with Snape and she was in Gryffindor Tower, I think she hung around with Mary McDonald. But that's it IMO.
I have two responses to this:

1) It has to be remembered that Sev's memories in The Prince's Tale are selective. They don't have a spin on them, they are honest memories but of course they can only show Lily from Sev's POV. The memories obviously cannot show Lily in Gryffindor surrounded by her friends, because he wasn't there at the time. However, in SWM, we did see her with a gaggle of girls from Gryffindor. She and Sev were not together then (which to me seems to indicate that the friendship had already cooled).

2) The way JKR writes Lily. She comes across as an eager, open-hearted, kind little girl who accepts the strange, lonely little boy who befriends her. Lily is a warm person, Sev is a closed-up person. It doesn't surprise me that she should be popular ... nor that she would have remained friends with Severus and been extremely fond of him.

Quote:
We don't see one friend of Lily on page, not when she writes to Sirius in DH. Sirius and Remus don't say anything about her "best friends" or even her friends. I think they did not, because there was only Snape and no other friend she was really close to and that information would have made Harry look at Snape completely differently.
Well, at the time of Sirius's letter she and James were in hiding, of course, with little to no contact with former friends, no doubt.

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Lily's Gryffindor mates could not satisfy her need for friendship like Snape did, because had they done so, Lily and Snape would not have been best friends for such a long time IMO.
I don't doubt Lily's genuine affection for Severus. But she tells him in their final conversation that she has been 'making excuses for him' (I take that to mean his hanging around with people who wanted to target Muggleborns like herself, among other things) for 'years': this indicates to me that their friendship had had big issues for some considerable time.

Quote:
Her love for James Potter decided her friendship with Snape. She knew subconciously that James and Snape would never get along and she chose her love over friendship IMO.
I fundamentally disagree with this analysis of Lily, as you know. Of course James was a factor, but he wasn't the only one. And Lily was not in love with him at the time of SWM -- she fancied him, sure, but she also thought he was an arrogant bully for for the way he treated Severus. If she chose James over Severus at that time, why then did she chew James out for his behaviour in front of his friends? She doesn't start going out with him for another two years after that. So I do not agree that she chose love over friendship. It was the 'Mudblood' incident that finally killed the friendship.

Quote:
Of course at the same time Snape was also hanging out with Avery and Mulciber. But I do feel that Lily would have been able to pull him away from being a DE, had she not fallen for James IMO.

She would have slapped him and told him not to do that and I believe Snape would have obeyed. But sadly for Snape, she was not willing to make the effort, because she had started moving away IMO.
Lily was already making the effort. We see that, when she tells Severus, in quite a lot of distress, that what Mulciber and Avery do is 'evil' and she just can't understand why he is friends with them. Unfortunately, Severus is so overjoyed that she called James "an arrogant toe-rag" that he has stopped listening.

Quote:
Lily was not a loyal friend when we see her; because we see her at the end of their friendship; in fact I would go further and say she was not a friend at all at that time. But I would also say that she and Snape were really the best of friends, they enjoyed each other's company and they were very content with each other until then.
I don't think the friendship was smooth and untroubled until the point of the Werewolf incident, because Lily's unhappiness with the company Sev was keeping in Slytherin House pre-dates that.

Quote:
It was "superficial from the time of the werewolf incident; but before that I do think it was very fulfilling IMO.
I think there was a fundamental problem within the friendship well before the werewolf incident: Sev's obsession with the Dark Arts and his seduction (for lack of a better word) by the Death Eater elite within Slytherin.

All part of his tragic story, of course, poor guy.

But I do feel that Lily's concerns were legitimate, and not just because she later -- much later -- fell in love with James Potter ... a pureblood boy, it should be noted, who did not care tuppence that she was Muggleborn.


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Old July 18th, 2008, 10:53 am
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Re: Snape and Lily: Joint Character Analysis v.3

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Originally Posted by ComicBookWorm View Post
Where is the canon that Lily's opinion of Snape was influenced by his appearance?
Many girls and young women pay attention to a man's appearance and social status when they are in search of a suitable partner. It may not be the most important factor, but it does play a significant role, especially for young girls. Snape was not just unattractive, he is often described as ugly. Given that Lily fell for James Potter who was as different from Snape as it was possible to be, I'd say Snape's chances of ever becoming Lily's romantic interest were zero.

Quote:
But he was unharmed. There would have been no need to show concern after the fact.
What difference does it make if he was physically unharmed or not? If Lily were a loyal friend, she would have been concerned anyway, considering that her "best friend" had almost got himself killed. She seemed totally indifferent to the fact, IMO. I cannot imagine Hermione acting the same way.

Quote:
Originally Posted by The_Green_Woods View Post
Very interesting, Raelis. For I always thought until Lily fell for James and started moving away from Snape, their friendship was very much equal. Mainly because Snape would not have repented as he did and love her as he did, until he died, had they not had a friendship that was mutually satisfying. In fact I would also say that Lily too not only knew about the dark arts but also read along with Snape.
I used to think the same, but at this moment I'm in a rather pessimistic mood, and this certainly influences my view on Snape and Lily's friendship. Actually, I'm still undecided when it comes to their relationship. I change my mind every two days or so.

Quote:
If they were not happy with each other, the frienship I feel would have fallen apart much earlier. I thought she was content with Snape and was happy with his friendship, and it is only from JKR that we have news that Lily was a popular girl; we don;t see one close friend apart from Snape as we do for James, Sirius, Harry, Draco even in the books. When she was not with Snape and she was in Gryffindor Tower, I think she hung around with Mary McDonald. But that's it IMO.
I would like to think that they were happy with each other, but I base my view entirely on what I see in canon.

Quote:
We don't see one friend of Lily on page, not when she writes to Sirius in DH. Sirius and Remus don't say anything about her "best friends" or even her friends. I think they did not, because there was only Snape and no other friend she was really close to and that information would have made Harry look at Snape completely differently.
She did have friends, though. She says to Snape that none of her friends understands why she continues hanging out with him. She also spends her time with her girlfriends after the OWL exam rather than approaching Snape and talking to him.
Sirius and Lupin didn't mention her other friends because they were not necessary to the plot, IMHO.

Quote:
I agree, same interests including the dark arts IMO acually.
That's an interesting thought. Why do you think so? Lily made it clear in DH that she hated the Dark Arts.

Quote:
We saw those scenes when they started getting ot know each other, which was probably a whole year before Hogwarts and then, we saw the reasons for the break up. When we came to the werewolf incident, it's Snape who's hanging on to the friendship, desperate to not let go; Lily was not a friend IMO in that memory itself. her reactions are not what a best frined would have.
This is what makes me think that the friendship would have been broken anyway, Mudblood or no Mudblood. Lily was simply not interested. She had other magical friends and admirers.

Quote:
But between the time of the first memory and the SWM, there were almost 6 years. And Lily and Snape despite being in Houses that were enemies were best friends IMO.
It's possible that Lily contunued being friends with Snape because he was the only magical person she could talk to during summer holidays. Considering how outgoing she seemed to be, she would have probably not been content with letters alone.

Quote:
Her love for James Potter decided her friendship with Snape. She knew subconciously that James and Snape would never get along and she chose her love over friendship IMO.
Well, I wouldn't use such a strong word as "love" with regards to Lily's feelings to James Potter when they were at Hogwarts. Love came later, I think. At school Lily was attracted to James, IMO.

Quote:
Ironically James chose exactly the opposite when he chose the SK (not the switch); he chose friendship over family IMO.
I think, Lily also palyed a part in this. After all, she was strong-willed and fiery. She wouldn't have tolerated it if her husband made such important decisions without consulting with her first. Besides, it seems Sirius was almost as much her friend as he was James's.

Quote:
Of course at the same time Snape was also hanging out with Avery and Mulciber. But I do feel that Lily would have been able to pull him away from being a DE, had she not fallen for James IMO.She would have slapped him and told him not to do that and I believe Snape would have obeyed. But sadly for Snape, she was not willing to make the effort, because she had started moving away IMO.
If this is true, it only proves that their friendship was superficial from the very beginning.

Quote:
I am not blaming her for Snape's mistakes BTW, I only feel, she was not as committed as she was to the frinendship at a time Snape desperately needed it. It was all very sad IMO.
Agreed. Snape seemed to have read much more into their friendship than Lily did.

Quote:
Lily was not a loyal friend when we see her; because we see her at the end of their friendship; in fact I would go further and say she was not a friend at all at that time. But I would also say that she and Snape were really the best of friends, they enjoyed each other's company and they were very content with each other until then.

Also unlike other friends they would be together not only during School time, but also during holidays; and I don't think they ever got tired of each other and they were very happy with each other IMO.
I would gladly agree with you, if we had some canon evidence for this. It was really easy for JKR to include some scenes or hints showing that Lily and Snape's friendship was solid and genuine. She chose not to, and that's why I have to work with what I have.


  #56  
Old July 18th, 2008, 11:11 am
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Re: Snape and Lily: Joint Character Analysis v.3

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Originally Posted by Raelis View Post
Many girls and young women pay attention to a man's appearance and social status when they are in search of a suitable partner. It may not be the most important factor, but it does play a significant role, especially for young girls. Snape was not just unattractive, he is often described as ugly. Given that Lily fell for James Potter who was as different from Snape as it was possible to be, I'd say Snape's chances of ever becoming Lily's romantic interest were zero.
He was never a romantic interest for her. He was a childhood friend, not a boyfriend. But they were friends for five or six years, so if his appearance bothered her, she wouldn't have been his friend for so long. We would need even a slight hint in canon that she didn't like his appearance, and the only thing we have is the opposite since he was strangely dressed when they first met and she didn't care.

BTW James Potter was not handsome. Harry has never been described as good looking, rather he is average in appearance.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Raelis View Post
It was really easy for JKR to include some scenes or hints showing that Lily and Snape's friendship was solid and genuine. She chose not to, and that's why I have to work with what I have.
Those scenes were not important to the plot. But we do have the fact that they remained friends for five or six years, despite being in different houses.

It isn't fair to the characters or the story to fault them for something that wasn't included. There wasn't enough room to satisfy the curiousity of every fan. We were shown what was essential to propel the storyline. I think it's better to discuss what was in the plot instead of what wasn't.


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Old July 18th, 2008, 11:40 am
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Re: Snape and Lily: Joint Character Analysis v.3

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Originally Posted by ComicBookWorm View Post
He was never a romantic interest for her. He was a childhood friend, not a boyfriend. But they were friends for five or six years, so if his appearance bothered her, she wouldn't have been his friend for so long.
I know that he was never her romantic interest. In my original post I wanted to say that the friendship would have broken anyway because Snape never had chances of attracting Lily's attention in this way. Given that he was infatuated with her, he wouldn't have been able to cope with the fact that she dated someone else, IMO. Especially is this "someone else" happened to be one of the Marauders.

Quote:
We would need even a slight hint in canon that she didn't like his appearance, and the only thing we have is the opposite since he was strangely dressed when they first met and she didn't care.
I brought up his appearance in efforts to explain why I don't think Lily would have fallen for him romantically. Their friendship wouldn't have lasted not due to the fact that Snape was ugly, but rather due to the fact that Lily would never have been interested in pursuing
romantic relationship with him. He'd have been too bitter to continue the relationship, IMO.
Quote:
BTW James Potter was not handsome. Harry has never been described as good looking, rather he is average in appearance.
In some of her interviews JKR mentioned that Harry inherited his parents' good looks and that James was attractive, though nowhere near Sirius's league. But as I am unable to come up with the exact quotes at the moment, this argument can be easily disregarded, I think.

Quote:
I think it's better to discuss what was in the plot instead of what wasn't.
Which is exactly what I'm doing here. I base my opinion on Snape and Lily's relationship only on what I see in canon.

My interpretation of canon, however, is solely IMO.



Last edited by Raelis; July 18th, 2008 at 11:43 am.
  #58  
Old July 18th, 2008, 12:30 pm
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Re: Snape and Lily: Joint Character Analysis v.3

snape and lily would have ended up married if he woud have broke ties with the deatheaters. lily gave him a chioce in thier fifth year. up intill then she didnt even really know james that well.not intill she severed ties with snape did she really start hanging with james. so my ? is what would have happened if he would have chose lily instead ? is that what drive him through all the books that question.


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Old July 18th, 2008, 12:30 pm
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Re: Snape and Lily: Joint Character Analysis v.3

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Originally Posted by Raelis View Post
Their friendship wouldn't have lasted not due to the fact that Snape was ugly, but rather due to the fact that Lily would never have been interested in pursuing romantic relationship with him.
The friendship broke apart because of Snape's DE friends, his bigotry, his interest in the Dark Arts, and his desire to join Voldemort.

Quote:
Originally Posted by severusfreak View Post
snape and lily would have ended up married if he woud have broke ties with the deatheaters.
The quote was that she might have been interested in him had he not been interested in the Dark Art. MIGHT have been interested, not would have. We've also been told that James and Lily were soulmates so James would have needed to have been out of the picture as well. And that would not have been the story we read. What ifs don't work for me personally since that isn't what happened or would have happened.


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Last edited by ComicBookWorm; July 18th, 2008 at 12:40 pm.
  #60  
Old July 18th, 2008, 12:40 pm
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Re: Snape and Lily: Joint Character Analysis v.3

where does it say lily was intrestied in james before her and snapes falling out ? as a matter of fact I think she referred to him as a toerag .


 
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