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Snape and Dumbledore: Joint Character Analysis



View Poll Results: How do you think Dumbledore and Snape viewed their relationship?
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  #241  
Old February 15th, 2008, 3:19 pm
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Re: Snape and Dumbledore: Joint Character Analysis

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Originally Posted by Pearl_Took View Post
Man. What wouldn't I have given to see Rowling have written that. That would have been AWESOME! I don't begrudge Neville his wonderful Nagini moment, of course. But ... wow! That so makes me want to write an AU fanfic ...
LOL That action would have put Snape in the more than awesome and More than HERO category and even wwb agrees that would be heroic.

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Originally Posted by wickedwickedboy View Post
Well we were discussing HBP/DH. Snape's spying on Voldemort, like Kingsley's spying at the ministry was a brave and important task. Harry (with Ron and Hermione) finding and destroying the horcruxes was also brave and important. Molly and Arthur housing and protecting the trio was also brave and important to the war. All of the others dedicated to Dumbledore's plans also provided brave and important tasks we don't know about (Hestia, etc.). I do not believe any task was more important than the next. Many of the tasks were vital and risky and Dumbledore appreciated that from all who assisted. But not one of them won the war alone. For example, if Harry had decided to go vacationing in the bahamas instead of seeking and destroying the horcruxes, all of the work everyone else did would amount to nothing
.

Sure all this was very important to the war and I agree with you. But I think Snape's task was the most important, because he alone could do it. If Kingsley failed, Dumbledore could have asked Moody or Arthur or Tonks to try. If Molly and Arthur were not able to house the Trio, they could have gone to other palces as we see in DH, when they went on and on and on camping. But if Snape did not do his job, I believe there was nobody else to fill his shoes. That's why I think Snape's the most important person.

Dumbledore need not even order poison from elsewhere, he could just turn the wand on himself and say AK and be gone; asking Snape to kill him was just not to spare an old man being tortured or bitten, it was along with that to make the most of his death by securing Snape's position within the DEs and in Voldemort's eyes. Snape's loyalty was never an issue after that and Snape's soul would not be ripped, because it was planned and not a murder and also to help him to hand over the Elder wand when the time came.

While Harry vacationing in the Bahamas would not win the war, had Snape gone vacationing in the Bahamas too, the Light would not have won the war so easily IMO. Of course unlike Harry who was most important, Snape running away would not stop the war efforts, but I think the Light would have had a very tough time in winning the war than, if say Kingsley, Molly or Arthur went to the Bahamas. They would have I believe lost a lot more people than they did now, with Dumbledore not able to get the required information from Voldemort's camp and send a lot of misinformation to Voldemort's side.

Quote:
Dumbledore.
That's very interesting I think. Dumbledore killing himself; would Snape's vow be fulfilled or not? Also Voldemort may have become suspicious of the Malfoy family, being the paranoid git that he is, and killed them all, because he would have thought they had an inside deal with Dumbledore and that was why he spared Draco and killed himself.

Quote:
Kingsley for one. But imo, Harry would have won without this contrivence.
I respectfully disagree. I think the Elder wand was Dumbledore's Master plan and ultimately Harry won because the wand in Voldemort's hand was not working for him and it was the Elder wand, specifically. If not for the elder wand, Voldeort would have had Ollivander make another wand suited to him which would have worked fine against Harry. It was the Elder wand that defeated Voldemort, not anything else IMO.

I wanted Dumbeldore to tell Snape, because I wanted that for Snape from Dumbledore, especially after we know Snape was not privy to both the horcruxes and the special lessons.


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Originally Posted by birdi86 View Post
Ah, yes... that.

Considering what a foolish mistake it was (and one that endangered quite a few lives, when you look at Voldemort's mistake) I almost wonder if part of the reason for it was the fact that Dumbledore was dying. With the curse ravaging his body, enough so that he would be willing to consider what is basically assisted suicide, it's possibly his judgment wasn't as good as it once was.
I don't think Dumbledore was weak. And even if he could not think clearly, which I think did not happen, even then, once he died and hung on the wall, he could have re-done everything. He had a year after all.


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Last edited by The_Green_Woods; February 15th, 2008 at 3:34 pm. Reason: added a bit and corrected a bit
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  #242  
Old February 15th, 2008, 3:37 pm
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Re: Snape and Dumbledore: Joint Character Analysis

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I don't think Dumbledore was weak. And even if he could not think clearly, which I think did not happen, even then, once he died and hung on the wall, he could have re-done everything. He had a year after all.
Potraits can only tell you what that person was like/knew at the time they were painted. Since we have no idea when Dumbledore's potrait was painted, we can't say how much it would have known about the plan.


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  #243  
Old February 15th, 2008, 3:47 pm
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Re: Snape and Dumbledore: Joint Character Analysis

Well Dumbledore's portrait as far as we know was able to suggest the 7 Potters plan, remind Snape about the conditions required for the Gryffindor sword and I presume he adviced Snape on other things as well. If Dumbledore's portrait could advice him on all that, then I think Dumbledore was fine. I also think Dumbledore's memories were with him in his portrait form also and I think he somehow retained extra capabilities too. Of course for the last I don't have canon as such, but he was more than just a set of imprints and memories IMO.


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  #244  
Old February 15th, 2008, 4:25 pm
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Re: Snape and Dumbledore: Joint Character Analysis

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Originally Posted by The_Green_Woods View Post
I don't think Dumbledore was weak. And even if he could not think clearly, which I think did not happen, even then, once he died and hung on the wall, he could have re-done everything. He had a year after all.
There is an open question about how creatively and independently a portrait of a dead wizard can think, of course...the only instance we see is the 7 Potters raid, and this could conceivably be something Dumbledore considered even before his injury.


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  #245  
Old February 15th, 2008, 5:08 pm
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Re: Snape and Dumbledore: Joint Character Analysis

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Originally Posted by zgirnius View Post
There is an open question about how creatively and independently a portrait of a dead wizard can think, of course...the only instance we see is the 7 Potters raid, and this could conceivably be something Dumbledore considered even before his injury.
Hmmm, I think portraits can think pretty well, at least those in Hogwarts. We see them able to pass on messages, argue with DUmbledore, speak snidely (Phineas), go to their other portraits and check up on Arthur in OOTP and so on. In Hogwarts, apart from the portraits in the headmaster's office, we see the Fat Lay visiting, drinking, listening to gossip from the current school year students and discussing the same with other portraits.

Of course the portraits in the school may all have all this in their imprints and those in the Headmaster's office may be helped along by Dumbeldore, but it is certain that they are able to understand new things and take them in and argue about them.

I think the portrait would have all the memories until the person dies. For Dumbledore LOL those would have been enough for any rational thinking, advice giving and planning.

If Dumbledore could not advice or think much, then there may be no chance for Snape to learn about the Elder wand also and he would be useless in case of say startling information or an emergency. I don't think that's the case. Phineas is able to understand about the task Dumbledore sets Harry in HBP, to retrieve the full memory from Slughorn and even questions Dumbledore about it.

And even if a portrait could not do much, I think Dumbledore would not have left it there; he would have taken precautions to equip his portrait for Harry's sake and to advice Snape.


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  #246  
Old February 15th, 2008, 5:40 pm
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Re: Snape and Dumbledore: Joint Character Analysis

Here is what JK Rowling said on 8/15/04- at the Edinburgh Book Festival about portraits:
JKR 8/15/04question: All the paintings we have seen at Hogwarts are of dead people. They seem to be living through their portraits. How is this so? If there was a painting of Harry’s parents, would he be able to obtain advice from them?

JKR: That is a very good question. They are all of dead people; they are not as fully realised as ghosts, as you have probably noticed. The place where you see them really talk is in Dumbledore’s office, primarily; the idea is that the previous headmasters and headmistresses leave behind a faint imprint of themselves. They leave their aura, almost, in the office and they can give some counsel to the present occupant, but it is not like being a ghost. They repeat catchphrases, almost. The portrait of Sirius’ mother is not a very 3D personality; she is not very fully realised. She repeats catchphrases that she had when she was alive. If Harry had a portrait of his parents it would not help him a great deal. If he could meet them as ghosts, that would be a much more meaningful interaction, but as Nick explained at the end of Phoenix—I am straying into dangerous territory, but I think you probably know what he explained—there are some people who would not come back as ghosts because they are unafraid, or less afraid, of death.


I don't think that Dumbledore's portrait is as fully functioning as Dumbledore himself would be. I think we see the portrait do a lot of things, but I would not expect it to take the place of a living person. So I would not count on it to play a very active role in dealing with Snape. If you remember, it was Snape who thought of a way to get the sword to Harry. Dumbledore's portrait only knew that Harry needed it so he could kill the horcrux, something he knew when he was alive. I wouldn't want to go into a lot of speculation over what the portrait could or could not do, since I think JKR made it do what she needed it to do for the plot, in my opinion.


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  #247  
Old February 15th, 2008, 5:46 pm
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Re: Snape and Dumbledore: Joint Character Analysis

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Originally Posted by SusanBones View Post
I don't think that Dumbledore's portrait is as fully functioning as Dumbledore himself would be. I think we see the portrait do a lot of things, but I would not expect it to take the place of a living person.
This seems to be something that is not definitively addressed one way or another in the book.

The quote is sort of useless, too, even if I liked quotes as canon (and this quote illustrates yet another reason I don't). On the one hand, it suggests portraits are not much like living people, more like video recordings; on the other hand, the little aside on the Headmasters' office, and contrast to Mrs. Black, suggests that those portraits might somehow be different because of this 'aura' she speaks of.

I'd say it is an open question to what extent Dumbledore's portrait could change plans in light of real-time events in DH. I prefer the idea you suggest, that it was considerably less than a real person, simply because I liked the idea that Rowling would not bring people back from the dead, and a portrait that can scheme and feel and think and learn and grow in wisdom just like the living person is more or less bringing that person back from the dead.


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  #248  
Old February 15th, 2008, 6:03 pm
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Re: Snape and Dumbledore: Joint Character Analysis

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Originally Posted by SusanBones View Post
Here is what JK Rowling said on 8/15/04- at the Edinburgh Book Festival about portraits:
JKR 8/15/04question: All the paintings we have seen at Hogwarts are of dead people. They seem to be living through their portraits. How is this so? If there was a painting of Harry’s parents, would he be able to obtain advice from them?

JKR: That is a very good question. They are all of dead people; they are not as fully realised as ghosts, as you have probably noticed. The place where you see them really talk is in Dumbledore’s office, primarily; the idea is that the previous headmasters and headmistresses leave behind a faint imprint of themselves. They leave their aura, almost, in the office and they can give some counsel to the present occupant, but it is not like being a ghost. They repeat catchphrases, almost. The portrait of Sirius’ mother is not a very 3D personality; she is not very fully realised. She repeats catchphrases that she had when she was alive. If Harry had a portrait of his parents it would not help him a great deal. If he could meet them as ghosts, that would be a much more meaningful interaction, but as Nick explained at the end of Phoenix—I am straying into dangerous territory, but I think you probably know what he explained—there are some people who would not come back as ghosts because they are unafraid, or less afraid, of death.


I don't think that Dumbledore's portrait is as fully functioning as Dumbledore himself would be. I think we see the portrait do a lot of things, but I would not expect it to take the place of a living person. So I would not count on it to play a very active role in dealing with Snape. If you remember, it was Snape who thought of a way to get the sword to Harry. Dumbledore's portrait only knew that Harry needed it so he could kill the horcrux, something he knew when he was alive. I wouldn't want to go into a lot of speculation over what the portrait could or could not do, since I think JKR made it do what she needed it to do for the plot, in my opinion.
That is very interesting, though it is a very early quote in 2004, before HBP? or OOTP?

If Jo still maintains this, then the conclusion would mean that Dumbledore would not be able to act in an advisory capasity to Snape, and would not be able to tell about the Elder wand, even if Snape questioned him after he sees (speculation on my part with help from DH) Voldemort take out Dumbledore's wand from his tomb, if he in HBP did not wish to reveal anything to Snape.

Mrs. Black I thought was different. And I really thought the portraits at Hogwarts and the Headmaster's office would be totally different from Mrs. Black.

But how does Jo explain the understanding capacity of Phineas who realizes Sirius is dead and goes searching for him. There would be no imprint there, I think he was dead long before Sirius was born.

And what about the various Headmasters and mistress listening intently as Dumbeldore tells Harry about the horcruxes. Someone even takes out their ear trumpet to hear properly.

Would all of them have known about the horcruxes and would they have made the connection or were they simply enacting something?

I think there are portraits and then there are portraits. There have to be; somehow I just cannot see Dumbledore and Mrs. Black in the same category, just because they are dead.

And the 7 Potters? How did Dumbledore suggest Dung? Was it thought out beforehand like zgirnius said or was it something else?

ETA :: One more thing :: And what about when Dumbledore nods in approval at the end of DH, when Harry decides to replace the Elder wand in DD's tomb? Dumbledore nods in approval and speaks to Harry?

There may be a discrepancy about the portraits since the interview was long ago.


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Spotlight on Snape and Molly

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Last edited by The_Green_Woods; February 15th, 2008 at 6:11 pm.
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  #249  
Old February 15th, 2008, 6:17 pm
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Re: Snape and Dumbledore: Joint Character Analysis

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Originally Posted by The_Green_Woods View Post
But how does Jo explain the understanding capacity of Phineas who realizes Sirius is dead and goes searching for him. There would be no imprint there, I think he was dead long before Sirius was born.
But the concept that the last male descendant to carry the family name of Black has just died, is one he would have understood in life. Having sons to carry on family names tends to be a concern in aristocratic families like the Blacks.

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ETA :: And what about when Dumbledore nods i approval at the end of DH, when Harry decides to replace the Elder wand in DD's tomb?
Here Harry is resolving to carry out the same plan Dumbledore made, to destroy the power of the wand by dying undefeated. It could be that Dumbledore's portrait is approving.

On the other hand, Harry certainly treats the portrait as one would a much-loved mentor. But does this reflect something Harry knows about the portrait's abilities that we do not, or does this reflect a need Harry has, that he tries to meet with the imperfect substitute of the portrait?

I felt a certain distance between Snape and the portrait in the few scenes of them we saw. But was this because Snape knows something about the portraits limitations that we do not, or because the late revelations in sixth year affected the relationship negatively (as well they might?)


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  #250  
Old February 15th, 2008, 6:29 pm
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Re: Snape and Dumbledore: Joint Character Analysis

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Originally Posted by zgirnius View Post
I liked the idea that Rowling would not bring people back from the dead, and a portrait that can scheme and feel and think and learn and grow in wisdom just like the living person is more or less bringing that person back from the dead.
This is the way I view it, too. It doesn't seem right to have a portrait replace a person.

Dumbledore talks to Harry in Kings Cross Station as a spirit, or whatever you call it, for this reason, I think, rather then talk to Harry as a portrait about all the important stuff that happened. The scene we see with Snape and Dumbledore's portrait is interesting because it seems as if Snape is being impatient with the portrait, in my opinion, because it isn't the real Dumbledore after all and doesn't funtion as the real Dumbledore would, in my opinion. I think that Snape did a lot of his own thinking and planning in DH. He knew what Dumbledore wanted in a general sense, but he was the one who made it happen.

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Originally Posted by The_Green_Woods View Post
That is very interesting, though it is a very early quote in 2004, before HBP? or OOTP?
OotP came out in 2003, so this interview would be after that, but before HBP.

ETA: saw this after I posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by zgirnius
I felt a certain distance between Snape and the portrait in the few scenes of them we saw. But was this because Snape knows something about the portraits limitations that we do not, or because the late revelations in sixth year affected the relationship negatively (as well they might?)
I got this impression, too. I think there were limits to the portrait, like you suggested. In addition to that, Snape may have felt a little trapped with his promise and his unbreakable vow, especially after he learned more about what Harry was doing. He may have resented the fact that he felt left out of something as important as this was, in my opinion.


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  #251  
Old February 15th, 2008, 9:40 pm
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Re: Snape and Dumbledore: Joint Character Analysis

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I respectfully disagree. I think the Elder wand was Dumbledore's Master plan and ultimately Harry won because the wand in Voldemort's hand was not working for him and it was the Elder wand, specifically. If not for the elder wand, Voldeort would have had Ollivander make another wand suited to him which would have worked fine against Harry. It was the Elder wand that defeated Voldemort, not anything else IMO.
I respect your view, but it was Dumbledore's original plan that the power of the wand die with him. That is why I said that if Dumbledore had killed himself rather than ask Snape to do it, the whole Elder Wand thing would become unimportant. It might still help Harry out in the end (Voldemort would still have a wand that did not work for him), but it would have saved Snape's life. Harry could still win in his battle against Voldemort. He may have had to use a slightly different strategy - but in the end, Dumbledore would not have had to use Snape in such a negative fashion.


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  #252  
Old February 16th, 2008, 5:27 am
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Re: Snape and Dumbledore: Joint Character Analysis

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Originally Posted by zgirnius View Post
But the concept that the last male descendant to carry the family name of Black has just died, is one he would have understood in life. Having sons to carry on family names tends to be a concern in aristocratic families like the Blacks.


Quote:
Here Harry is resolving to carry out the same plan Dumbledore made, to destroy the power of the wand by dying undefeated. It could be that Dumbledore's portrait is approving.

On the other hand, Harry certainly treats the portrait as one would a much-loved mentor. But does this reflect something Harry knows about the portrait's abilities that we do not, or does this reflect a need Harry has, that he tries to meet with the imperfect substitute of the portrait?

I felt a certain distance between Snape and the portrait in the few scenes of them we saw. But was this because Snape knows something about the portraits limitations that we do not, or because the late revelations in sixth year affected the relationship negatively (as well they might?)
I also agree with the opinions that Dumbledore’s portrait was not and could not be seen as having all the intelligence and capabilities of his well, live self; but I think he was even as a portrait far better than say Mrs. Black. I think the portrait too, as with most other things; depend upon the person and his magical ability and also that of Hogwarts’s own magic which probably increases the thinking capacity of the portrait.

The distance between Snape and Dumbledore I think must have come right after Dumbledore told him he would not tell Snape anything because Snape was too close to Voldemort. I think Snape may have been hurt by that; I don’t know of course, but we see a distancing of Snape right from the Forest scene which Hagrid over heard, because Snape is livid he is not being trusted by a man who went around saying *I completely trust Severus Snape* but not telling him anything Snape really wanted to know.

While Dumbledore may have had his reasons for not telling Snape; I thought that Snape would be deeply hurt because he was doing great and extremely difficult things for Dumbledore and that he was entitled to know things pertaining to the war and Harry (especially as he also had to give Harry his message evenb though Snape knew this only that night) and perhaps felt let down or betrayed as he tells Dumbledore in the forest. Dumbledore wants little things like killing him and taking on the repercussions of that action on his head, but would not tell him what Harry was learning or anything else really. I think Snape found it insulting, but he was way too committed to get out of the whole war. Otherwise he may have told Dumbledore what he could do with his suggestions IMO.

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Originally Posted by SusanBones View Post
This is the way I view it, too. It doesn't seem right to have a portrait replace a person.
I got this impression, too. I think there were limits to the portrait, like you suggested. In addition to that, Snape may have felt a little trapped with his promise and his unbreakable vow, especially after he learned more about what Harry was doing. He may have resented the fact that he felt left out of something as important as this was, in my opinion.
More than left out of something important I thought he felt he may not have been trusted enough and that I think he would have resented more.

Quote:
Originally Posted by wickedwickedboy View Post
I respect your view, but it was Dumbledore's original plan that the power of the wand die with him. That is why I said that if Dumbledore had killed himself rather than ask Snape to do it, the whole Elder Wand thing would become unimportant. It might still help Harry out in the end (Voldemort would still have a wand that did not work for him), but it would have saved Snape's life. Harry could still win in his battle against Voldemort. He may have had to use a slightly different strategy - but in the end, Dumbledore would not have had to use Snape in such a negative fashion.
Yes Dumbledore’s original plan was to have the wand die with him and at the same time make sure that Voldemort would not think of procuring another wand that might work for him, because that would defeat Harry surely. It was only the fact that Voldemort had a wand that did not work for him that won the war; assume Voldemort had a wand that did not share a core with Harry’s and was not the Elder wand either, then, I think Voldemort would have won the war. He would have killed Harry IMO, and the AK I think would not have rebounded on him.

It was very important that the Elder wand’s capabilities were built up nicely and Voldemort was left feeling he had to do something, anything to own it. As Dumbledore says in DH, Voldemort’s obsession for the wand was equal to his obsession of Harry.

That was why Snape I think was chosen after Dumbledore became injured, because he was the only one from whom Voldemort could take the wand easily. That automatically means IMO Dumbledore knew that he was sending Snape to die. And because of that for me it is important Snape knew about the wand and the implications and the eventual results of killing Dumbledore.

Even when Draco disarmed him and Dumbledore realized that he had lost the Elder wand, there is no apparent change in plans. The Elder wand somehow was to be in Voldemort’s hands with Voldemort thinking he was the Master of the most powerful wand when he faced Harry.

And even if Dumbledore killed himself Snape would not be saved and I also think Draco would have suffered as well, because Voldemort would have become terribly suspicious and would have killed Draco and Snape would have died because of the UV, because he would not have been able to protect Draco from Voldemort’s wrath in a matter pertaining to Dumbledore’s death. I think Dumbledore thought all this out very clearly and deeply before he set his plans rolling.


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  #253  
Old February 16th, 2008, 5:45 am
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Re: Snape and Dumbledore: Joint Character Analysis

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Originally Posted by The_Green_Woods View Post



assume Voldemort had a wand that did not share a core with Harry’s and was not the Elder wand either, then, I think Voldemort would have won the war. He would have killed Harry IMO, and the AK I think would not have rebounded on him.
We don't have to assume. That was the case in the 7 Potters. Voldemort had Lucius' wand which didn't share a core with Harry's and it didn't work for Voldemort. Harry's wand became a Full Metal Jacket Soldier of Death and attacked Voldemort's curse of its own accord. So Voldemort was in deep trouble any way you slice it.

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It was very important that the Elder wand’s capabilities were built up nicely and Voldemort was left feeling he had to do something, anything to own it. As Dumbledore says in DH, Voldemort’s obsession for the wand was equal to his obsession of Harry.
Right, but Voldemort would have chased down the wand anyway. So if Dumbledore had killed himself, it still would not have worked right because the power would die with Dumbledore. And Snape would not have had to die over the Elder Wand.

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That was why Snape I think was chosen after Dumbledore became injured, because he was the only one from whom Voldemort could take the wand easily.
Voldemort could take it even easier right out of Dumbledore's tomb - which is what he did. And Snape would not have had to die.

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And even if Dumbledore killed himself Snape would not be saved and I also think Draco would have suffered as well, because Voldemort would have become terribly suspicious and would have killed Draco
Why? It wouldn't be Draco's fault that Dumbledore killed himself. What was there to be suspicious of? I mean what possible plan could Draco have?

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and Snape would have died because of the UV, because he would not have been able to protect Draco from Voldemort’s wrath in a matter pertaining to Dumbledore’s death.
Well the whole point is, Snape would not have made the UV with Narcissa because Dumbledore would not have asked him to kill him.

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I think Dumbledore thought all this out very clearly and deeply before he set his plans rolling.
I respect your view, but I don't think Dumbledore thought this through carefully at all. As I pointed out above, there was another way - a better way. Snape would not be set up to die, Draco would be fine and Dumbledore would be dead (which was the outcome of any plan). Voldemort would still find the Elder Wand useless to him. That is how I see it anyway.


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Old February 16th, 2008, 7:38 am
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Re: Snape and Dumbledore: Joint Character Analysis

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Originally Posted by wickedwickedboy View Post
We don't have to assume. That was the case in the 7 Potters. Voldemort had Lucius' wand which didn't share a core with Harry's and it didn't work for Voldemort. Harry's wand became a Full Metal Jacket Soldier of Death and attacked Voldemort's curse of its own accord. So Voldemort was in deep trouble any way you slice it.
That's a great point.

I just had a hurried reading of King's Cross and have found what you said to be true about Lucius's wand; so if it was not the elder wand alone, then why did Dumbledore plan the way he did? Was he that stupid? I cannot think so and I don't believe it either. If the elder wand was not an issue then the only reason Dumbledore had was not to be tortured??? For that he need not have waited a whole year; he could have simply vanished off with Fawkes and died a natural death; no one would have been blamed.

Another thought that comes to mind is that the connection was only against Harry's Phoenix wand which recognized Voldemort from the duel in the graveyard. Harry broke his wand and was fighting with Draco's wand. Would that wand react that way too? Perhaps not. Lucius wand not working for Voldemort is a fantastic point, but that was 2 things against Voldemort; one it was not his wand and it was not a wand that chose him.

Would we see the same results if Draco’s wand fought Voldemort’s yew wand or another wand that chose him? How would that work?

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Right, but Voldemort would have chased down the wand anyway. So if Dumbledore had killed himself, it still would not have worked right because the power would die with Dumbledore. And Snape would not have had to die over the Elder Wand.
Yes I agree. Voldemort would have chased down the elder wand anyway. To avoid that Dumbledore could have flown away with Fawkes and died elsewhere and the Elder wand will not be an issue at all.

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Well the whole point is, Snape would not have made the UV with Narcissa because Dumbledore would not have asked him to kill him.
I agree.

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I respect your view, but I don't think Dumbledore thought this through carefully at all. As I pointed out above, there was another way - a better way. Snape would not be set up to die, Draco would be fine and Dumbledore would be dead (which was the outcome of any plan). Voldemort would still find the Elder Wand useless to him. That is how I see it anyway.
And this is where I cannot believe Dumbledore would be so careless about taking a life without reason. While I don’t like the fact that he may have not told Snape about the elder wand, the Dumbledore that I understand now, will not IMO take a life without purpose, not after Ariana. If the elder wand was not in some way important to his plans of Harry defeating Voldemort I just cannot see Dumbledore deliberately intending Snape to end up with the Elder wand without reason.

But you have raised some points which are baffling. Why do you think Dumbledore asked Snape to kill him and eventually die as well, when the elder wand was not an issue; because Draco could have been saved by Dumbledore disappearing and Snape would never needed to kill or die?


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  #255  
Old February 16th, 2008, 8:35 am
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Re: Snape and Dumbledore: Joint Character Analysis

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But you have raised some points which are baffling. Why do you think Dumbledore asked Snape to kill him and eventually die as well, when the elder wand was not an issue; because Draco could have been saved by Dumbledore disappearing and Snape would never needed to kill or die?
Believe me, you don't want to know why I think Dumbledore did it. But if you really want to know, read on.

I now believe Dumbledore asked Snape to deliver the message to Harry that he was the horcrux because he knew that in order for Snape to get Harry to trust him enough to believe it, Snape would have to make several admissions to Harry about his past concerning James and Lily.

Well I think Dumbledore did that for Harry ~ Harry deserved to know. But what about Snape's redemption? After all, he still loathed Harry (and James) and Dumbledore knew it. Snape played a role in James death. Now I won't argue whether or not a person can feel jealousy and loathing for someone and at the same time feel remorse for assisting to cause their death. But I don't believe Dumbledore thought so. I feel Dumbledore felt Snape was completely unrepentant for what he'd done with respect to James and Dumbledore knew this would be a stumbling block for Snape's redemption.

So, Dumbledore took matters into his own hands. He set Snape up in a position that he knew was very likely to result in Snape's death (which it did) and justified it with the understanding that Snape giving his life, while working for the good side, would atone for that which Snape could not atone for in life. Participating in the taking of another's life (or taking it) is something I feel one must either pay for or feel remorse for, in order that their own soul can be healed and redemption had. So Dumbledore knew the remorse would not happen, but he was not happy to let Snape go. I think he figured that in time Snape would possibly work it out himself - but with Dumbledore's help. However, now Dumbledore would be gone and it was possible Snape would be lost. In essence, Dumbledore set up the payment so that remorse would not be necessary. As a result, Snape's soul would be healed and he'd make it into the afterlife.

While there were other things that Snape was not redeemed for, none of them would keep him from the afterlife. (For example his treatment of Harry was terrible, but that did not affect his soul or prospects for the afterlife, imo.)

So that is my theory. I already know you will not find it to your liking and likely have a totally different opinion...but you asked. And that is my take on it because I too feel that Dumbledore would not elect Snape to do something he could do himself without a very good reason.


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Old February 16th, 2008, 12:13 pm
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Re: Snape and Dumbledore: Joint Character Analysis

I agree that Dumbledore's plan for death was ill-conceived and poorly executed with no contingency plans. Since it eventually impacted Snape's ability to tell Harry what he needed to know, it was a lousy plan.


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  #257  
Old February 16th, 2008, 1:19 pm
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Re: Snape and Dumbledore: Joint Character Analysis

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I agree that Dumbledore's plan for death was ill-conceived and poorly executed with no contingency plans. Since it eventually impacted Snape's ability to tell Harry what he needed to know, it was a lousy plan.
I think his well-laid plans were interrupted by the ambitions of a misguided boy. Namely, Draco Malfoy. I have always believed he and Snape had something worked out between them for his death, but Draco was the wild card.

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Old February 16th, 2008, 1:47 pm
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Re: Snape and Dumbledore: Joint Character Analysis

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Believe me, you don't want to know why I think Dumbledore did it. But if you really want to know, read on. I now believe Dumbledore asked Snape to deliver the message to Harry that he was the horcrux because he knew that in order for Snape to get Harry to trust him enough to believe it, Snape would have to make several admissions to Harry about his past concerning James and Lily.
wwb, you are correct. I do not agree because of the reasons I have stated below. But that I would not like it; well how can I say that? That's not fair.

I would respectfully disagree. Harry would have IMO believed Snape, if only he had seen Dumbledore’s and Snape’s talks about the war. That it is conclusive evidence I think. Snape did not need to show Harry any personal memories and we don’t also know that Snape wanted to show Harry those memories to fulfil his remorse. At least that’s the way I look at it.

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Well I think Dumbledore did that for Harry ~ Harry deserved to know. But what about Snape's redemption? After all, he still loathed Harry (and James) and Dumbledore knew it. Snape played a role in James death. Now I won't argue whether or not a person can feel jealousy and loathing for someone and at the same time feel remorse for assisting to cause their death. But I don't believe Dumbledore thought so. I feel Dumbledore felt Snape was completely unrepentant for what he'd done with respect to James and Dumbledore knew this would be a stumbling block for Snape's redemption.
Again I respectfully disagree. Snape’s redemption was his own affair. Who was Dumbledore to order Snape to seek remorse? And in fact Dumbledore also says in HBP that Snape did feel enormous remorse for his action of handing over half the Prophecy. So as far as Dumbledore was concerned, Snape had already shown remorse. Why should he need Snape to show remorse by setting up Snape to die? And also we must not forget that Snape could have very well died before he handed over the memories. Then what would be his remorse and redemption? Dumbledore could not have predicted that. And if Snape had been alive and spoken to Harry, he may have spoken totally different words and they may have had a completely different conversation from what we saw in the TPT. So then what would have been his remorse?

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So, Dumbledore took matters into his own hands. He set Snape up in a position that he knew was very likely to result in Snape's death (which it did) and justified it with the understanding that Snape giving his life, while working for the good side, would atone for that which Snape could not atone for in life. Participating in the taking of another's life (or taking it) is something I feel one must either pay for or feel remorse for, in order that their own soul can be healed and redemption had. So Dumbledore knew the remorse would not happen, but he was not happy to let Snape go. I think he figured that in time Snape would possibly work it out himself - but with Dumbledore's help. However, now Dumbledore would be gone and it was possible Snape would be lost. In essence, Dumbledore set up the payment so that remorse would not be necessary. As a result, Snape's soul would be healed and he'd make it into the afterlife.
Okay he set up Snape to die. I am agreement here; but I just cannot believe that Dumbledore who was seeking redemption himself for Ariana’s death (the hasty way he put on the ring) would go around arranging for what he thought would be Snape’s redemption.

Snape’s remorse or redemption I think should be in his mind, his soul and his very being. Not in actions controlled by others. How would that be redemption? I must feel for my wrong doings and then remedy them myself with the understanding that I have been terribly wrong and I must now seek a way to heal by doing something that would ease the pain that I caused for myself. That would be the way to seek forgiveness, because the way I see it, it is not asking for Harry’s pardon; it is for wanting to look at himself without cringing; that is IMO complete forgiveness. Harry would forgive Snape if he had been treated nice by Snape. If Snape had spoken pleasant words and shed a few tears when Harry came to know about his share in handing over the Prophecy, Harry would forgive and forget everything, and then would Snape be really redeemed? I don’t think so.

IMO Snape’s actual redemption is inside of him; that was why he suffered so much; because he could not justify his actions to himself, he could not accept his actions as a mistake and move on. Dumbledore was the same IMO with Grindelwald and Ariana. That was why Snape’s redemption could not be set up by Dumbledore or indeed anybody else IMO.

Snape or anyone would be healed once they are able to look at a wrong action in the face with the knowledge and determination that such an action will never come from them, ever. Snape and Dumbledore could not do that; they could not heal completely because they could not justify their wrongs to themselves all their life; but they could and did work all their lives to make sure that the wrongs they had been a part of would be destroyed.


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While there were other things that Snape was not redeemed for, none of them would keep him from the afterlife. (For example his treatment of Harry was terrible, but that did not affect his soul or prospects for the afterlife, imo.)

So that is my theory. I already know you will not find it to your liking and likely have a totally different opinion...but you asked. And that is my take on it because I too feel that Dumbledore would not elect Snape to do something he could do himself without a very good reason.
Dumbledore’s actions, if not for the Elder wand, don’t make any sense at all to me. And Dumbledore as I see him with parallels to Snape cannot in my mind set up someone to die because he is redeeming them. I would and still believe Dumbledore set up Snape to die for the Elder wand so that Voldemort could access it easily and be defeated.

I do not know many answers and I would try and seek them as I go along, but I can take Dumbledore's actions in the light of the war and the fact he was the leader. I only want him to tell Snape about it; that would be the respect Snape commanded from Dumbledore. But Dumbledore setting Snape to die so that he can seek forgiveness from James, Lily and Harry is something as you rightly said I may not be able to accept. Because then what about others he harmed as a death eater? Doesn’t Snape need to be redeemed for those? I just cannot imagine Dumbledore taking decisions like that.


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  #259  
Old February 16th, 2008, 9:23 pm
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Re: Snape and Dumbledore: Joint Character Analysis

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I do not know many answers and I would try and seek them as I go along, but I can take Dumbledore's actions in the light of the war and the fact he was the leader. I only want him to tell Snape about it; that would be the respect Snape commanded from Dumbledore. But Dumbledore setting Snape to die so that he can seek forgiveness from James, Lily and Harry is something as you rightly said I may not be able to accept. Because then what about others he harmed as a death eater? Doesn’t Snape need to be redeemed for those? I just cannot imagine Dumbledore taking decisions like that.
Well I always figured Dumbledore felt that Snape did feel remorse for everything except in relation to James (even if I didn't agree with Dumbledore, I think that is how he felt). That is because Dumbledore made that statement after the Occulmency lessons: 'I thought Snape would be able to let his old grudge against your dad go - I was wrong' (paraphrased). So this is the way I see it until I think of something better.

Anyway, it was just my theory for now. I had another. It has been remarked that it is strange for Dumbledore to allow Snape to treat Harry the way he did for 6.5 years. Some have guessed that Dumbledore didn't really know much about it. But I was thinking, maybe he did know. Maybe he decided that once he died, Snape's loathing for Harry would be even less controlled. So he decided that he would eliminate that possibility and that is why he set Snape up. But I like that theory less than the other one.

But who knows, there is little to no proof for either theory unless one reads meaning into scenes and such. So as you said, it could be that Dumbledore simply needed a fall guy and since it was war, he felt justified in setting Snape up the way he did. I suppose I just got used to the idea that Dumbledore generally did things for a good reason (at least to his mind) - but maybe this is the exception.


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Old February 16th, 2008, 11:02 pm
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Re: Snape and Dumbledore: Joint Character Analysis

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Well I always figured Dumbledore felt that Snape did feel remorse for everything except in relation to James (even if I didn't agree with Dumbledore, I think that is how he felt). That is because Dumbledore made that statement after the Occulmency lessons: 'I thought Snape would be able to let his old grudge against your dad go - I was wrong' (paraphrased). So this is the way I see it until I think of something better.
Actually, the quote was more like " I made another old man's mistake, i forgot that sometimes wounds run way to deep to fully heal."

It was not that snape was immature, it was that he felt to strongly on the topic, especially any tipic having to do with Lily.


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