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A Song of Ice and Fire



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  #401  
Old October 19th, 2012, 4:38 am
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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire

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Originally Posted by Wimsey View Post
The problem with this scenario is that it completely omits Rickon. Once Davos returns with Rickon (will that be Winter or Spring? Will it be in 2016 or 2026? ), the North will rally around Rickon. The Manderlys know the truth, after all, and it would be surprising if they are not plotting with other northern houses that dislike the Boltons, Freys and Lannisters (i.e., everyone other than the Karstarks; even the Mormonts seem to reserve their disdain for Ned alone). And it won't be just the Manderlys and their allies: Jon will immediately point to Rickon once he turns up. Stannis, stickler for the letter of the law that is his, also will support Rickon, albeit as Lord of Winterfell: but that's all Lord Manderly is after anymore. (Well, maybe some more pork pies.... )
Well doesn't that set up another interesting controversy? Technically, Robb can name anyone his heir, it doesn't have to go to the next in line, as we see with Sansa he can legally pass over his siblings for someone else. There are no strict laws that would force Robb's hand he could choose whomever he wanted. I think Manderly is trying to find Rickon for somewhat selfish means. He wants to be the guardian of the King in the North so that he is in favor and can sway the laws that are made in his favor. With that said, I definitely would prefer to have Manderly with real!Rickon than the Boltons with fake!Arya.

Now, if both Robb's Will and Rickon emerge soon I think it would create an interesting dynamic in the North. Who is the real king? Is Rickon a fake? Is the Will fake? Who will the people of the North support? I don't think either of these story lines have been finished, clearly Maege Mormont is somewhere doing something with that Will (maybe she'll be the one to pull Howland out of the crannogs) and Davos is on his way to Skagos because Rickon is reportedly there. Will these story lines go the way we expect? I dunno. Are either of them finished, doubtful. We'll see something come from both of these.

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I think it more correct to write that she might have begun to realize that all of the fairytales are not true. After hearing a highly fictionalized song recounting The Battle of Blackwater, she is told (by Tyrion, I think) that all of the songs are made up. However, it's not clear that Sansa extrapolates from that. Moreover, and this is key: even if Sansa has wised up to the fairtytales, she has not replaced them with some other basis for evaluating the world. At best, she's just totally lost right now: she's reduced to wondering why the gods hate her so much!
Well, I think all of Sansa's naive visions about the world are dashed. Joffrey did a pretty good job of revealing to her that court life was not like a song. I agree that Sansa is more lost right now, but I do also think that she has realized that her life is not a fairy tale. Ser Dontos was not her Florian, her life did not follow a song. I think that idea has made itself very clear to her.

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For one thing, those girls might not have been as dumb as they were acting. But more importantly, you seem to equate intelligence with any ability to change: given that definition, there is no such thing as a stupid person. However, the issue is how quickly and how much one can evolve. Intelligent people can adapt a lot and rapidly; unintelligent people adapt little and slowly. Sansa has adapted very little and very slowly compared to many other characters (including her sister): in fact, I do not think that any of the other protagonists have evolved so little as Sansa has.

The young lady with whom to contrast Sansa is not Elinor, but Margaery. Margaery is only a couple of years old than Sansa, but Margaery is vastly more savvy politically and vastly more clever than Sansa. Margaery (like Arya!) very quickly suspects Joffery for what he is, and uses Sansa to confirm it. (Sansa's difficulty in interpreting Margaery's reaction almost certainly reflects Sansa not realizing that Margaery expected to hear this.) Elsewhere, Margaery is quickly able to realize the folly of Cersei's policies and Margaery seems to never to be under any illusion that Cersei is an ally. Margaery also seems to understand what Sansa's worth is: and remember how shocked Sansa is when somebody finally explains this to her! And that's the big difference between the two: Margaery (like Arya) seems to be actively altering (or trying to alter) the world around her to maximize her own interests whereas Sansa just hides in a shell. Sansa sits around wondering what the gods will do to her next: Margaeyr (like Arya) sits around pondering what she going to do next.


Now, Margaery might have had some advantages over Sansa: in particular, she seems to have been coached by her grandmother, and Olenna (the Queen of Thornes) probably could give the likes of Varys, Tyrion and Littlefinger good runs for the money. (This also makes me wonder to whether Elinor et al. are coached to act like airheads in order to provide a smokescreen for Margaery: after all, and as more than one woman in the book notes, a man often will forget himself around a pretty face if the mind behind the face does not remind him; alternatively, Olenna might simply have picked some of Marge's dumber cousins just to give credence to the facade.) And it's possible that Arya had a leg up on Sansa because she reminds Ned so much of Lyanna. Still, the "why" is much less important than the "what" here: and the "what" is that Sansa is far and away the most passive protagonist of the series and, really, of any series I've ever read. (Heck, even Anna Karenina was more active!).
I'm no fan of Sansa in the first two books, but I don't think it's true that she doesn't adapt. And I think the show did a fine job of showing how Sansa adapted, it was just subtle. She quickly learned, unlike Arya, that you can not say whatever you want to the King (and you especially can not strike him), she learned (both from the Hound and from Tyrion) that everyone in King's Landing is a liar and Sansa has to take part in that. Hell, she learned how to survive in King's Landing when even her father couldn't.

Now, I do certainly think that Margaery is much more politically savvy than Sansa was, but like you said that is probably because she has been trained from a young age by the Queen of Thorns and like you said, she certainly can give even Varys a run for his money, hell she helped kill Joffrey, so Margaery is much more advantaged in that respect. Sansa only had Ned, who wasn't politically savvy whatsoever and didn't really take much of an interest in Sansa, I feel, and Catelyn who, while decently politically savvy, seemed to raise her to be "a lady."


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  #402  
Old October 19th, 2012, 6:15 am
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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire

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Originally Posted by ccollinsmith View Post
I personally think Ned's absolute secrecy regarding Jon's mother argues more for Jon being the hidden Targaryen heir than for his being Ned's illegitimate son.
I meant as far as Catelyn is concerned. Myself, I feel pretty sure that Jon is Lyanna's son. I was wondering why Ned didn't let his wife in on the secret. I guess mostly because I hate the way Catelyn treats Jon.

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If Jon is the son of Rhaegar and Lyanna, then I think it would be absolutely crucial to keep everybody in the dark about it. One slip of the tongue, and Robert would have the boy's head. The fewer people who know a potentially lethal secret, the better. And given Catelyn's MO after the attempt/s on Bran's life, I think this is precisely the sort of secret I would want to keep from Catelyn.
You have a point there.

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Originally Posted by LordGodric
Hell, she learned how to survive in King's Landing when even her father couldn't.
That's no great feat, Ned was such an innocent politically!!! I mean, showing his hand to Cersei, when he knew what she had done, what kind of person she was... Thinking she would meekly go away... Rejecting Renly's support and his claim in favour of Stannis... Come on! The guy was too honourable. In King's Landing, he was a babe in the woods, he had no business being Hand of the King. That was his undoing, and his daughters'.


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  #403  
Old October 19th, 2012, 4:20 pm
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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire

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Originally Posted by LyannaS View Post
I meant as far as Catelyn is concerned. Myself, I feel pretty sure that Jon is Lyanna's son. I was wondering why Ned didn't let his wife in on the secret. I guess mostly because I hate the way Catelyn treats Jon.
Oh, okay. I get what you're saying. Thanks.

As for whether Catelyn would treat Jon better if she were told he was the son of Rhaegar and Lyanna, here's what I think:

Catelyn, I believe, is primarily motivated - at least up to the Red Wedding - by concern/fear for her own family (whether Tully or Stark). This concern/fear sometimes leads her into making rather irrational choices... and also leads to her less-than-rational fears about Jon. I won't say that her fears about Jon are irrational because there is ample history in Westeros to suggest that the illegitimate son of a great house poses a potential threat to the legitimate heirs, but she doesn't take the time to get to know Jon well enough to realize that her fears about him are unfounded.

Now, given the above (and assuming that Jon is the son of Rhaegar and Lyanna)... how would Catelyn react to the news that her husband is shielding a Targaryen-Stark child?

Based on what we see of Catelyn elsewhere, I think she would legitimately fear for the safety of her family. Robert is so terrified of Targaryens that he spends years sending out assassins to kill the young children of Aerys. Shielding a Targaryen would most likely cost Ned the good will of the King (if Robert ever found out), and then all bets would be off for the safety of Catelyn's own children. And the thing is... Catelyn's fear of Jon would then be rational. There is a solid basis here for fearing the wrath of the King.

So I don't think telling Catelyn would have materially improved Jon's lot. Assuming Catelyn would even be willing to keep the secret, she would still need to act as if Jon is Ned's illegitimate child.

And then, there's the likelikhood that she would see Jon as a far more direct threat to the Stark family. With the information Ned actually gives her, she fears Jon as an abstract potential threat to the future security of her children. So would her resentment against Jon be less if she knew that his presence was potentially a more direct and immediate threat? I find it likely that she would resent Jon even more.

Of course, I think that resentment would largely be contingent on Jon's presence in Winterfell. I don't think Jon's mere existence would spook her the way it does in the series. But I do think she'd be spooked by his proximity to her family.

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Originally Posted by LyannaS View Post
That's no great feat, Ned was such an innocent politically!!! I mean, showing his hand to Cersei, when he knew what she had done, what kind of person she was... Thinking she would meekly go away... Rejecting Renly's support and his claim in favour of Stannis... Come on! The guy was too honourable. In King's Landing, he was a babe in the woods, he had no business being Hand of the King. That was his undoing, and his daughters'.
Poor Ned. He was way out of his depth.

My husband has just finished the final Eddard chapter. Little does he know...


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  #404  
Old October 20th, 2012, 8:03 am
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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire

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Originally Posted by ccollinsmith View Post
So I don't think telling Catelyn would have materially improved Jon's lot. Assuming Catelyn would even be willing to keep the secret, she would still need to act as if Jon is Ned's illegitimate child.
I get your point. You're right

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Poor Ned. He was way out of his depth.
Totally.

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My husband has just finished the final Eddard chapter. Little does he know...
At least you got your husband to read it. Mine just watched the TV series with me. He liked it though, but he didn't want to get into the books. Even with Harry Potter, he never got past GoF.

Changing the subject slightly. I found this picture of Rhaegar and Lyanna on line. Can someone help me resize it to regulation signature size?



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  #405  
Old October 21st, 2012, 9:20 pm
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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire

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Originally Posted by Wimsey View Post
I would restate this. Arya would not have survived Kings Landing in the same way that Sansa did. Suppose that Lannister guardsmen return Arya to her rooms during the coup. Shortly thereafter, Arya would have escaped (or died trying) much as she did to avoid being captured. I have no doubt that Martin could have created a credible escape for Arya; after all, she already had explored Kings Landing pretty well. Moreover, had Arya not run into Yoren, then it does not strain credulity to think that Arya would have slipped out of the city and found a way north (or died trying).
If Arya hadn't been able to escape though (and I don't know if she could have done it by herself at this point in the story), I don't see her surviving court life, especially with Cersei right there with her. Sooner or later her attemps to escape would have been the end of her, or would have at least ended up with her locked underneath the red keep imo. I don't agree with you that trying to escape would have automatically been smarter than staying in King's Landing and playing the part, and I don't think that's what GRRM is trying to show. I never got the sense that he is elevating one sister above the other. Both Arya and Sansa went through horrible things, despite their massive differences. And both of their stories have converged into a similar path imo - they both need to become someone else.

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So, there never would have been a question of the two young ladies being in the same position: Sansa never thinks of how to flee and Arya never would have considered not trying to escape.
Sansa does think about how to flee though. Florian in COS and SOS (why else would she risk everything to see him so often in the godswood), and she trusted him more than the hound at the end of COS when he offered to keep her safe. She realises how difficult it is though.

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That's a key trait of intelligent people: not just the quality of the ideas, but the sheer number they produce. Even "subtle" development of Sansa being intelligent would require at least a few small explicit examples tucked away in the text where she thinks up A and B as possible solutions, and chooses A because it will work better than B.
I'm sorry but I disagree. One great idea is worth more than 100 bad ones imo. And the Hound offered to keep Sansa safe when he told her he was leaving King's Landing. She stayed because she was afraid of him, and had Florian anyway. I'd say she made the right choice there. Every move someone makes is a decision - to keep Cersei and Joffrey happy, to keep the other women during the battle calm, to become Alayne because the other options would have just led to an awful conclusion.

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I think it more correct to write that she might have begun to realize that all of the fairytales are not true. After hearing a highly fictionalized song recounting The Battle of Blackwater, she is told (by Tyrion, I think) that all of the songs are made up. However, it's not clear that Sansa extrapolates from that. Moreover, and this is key: even if Sansa has wised up to the fairtytales, she has not replaced them with some other basis for evaluating the world. At best, she's just totally lost right now: she's reduced to wondering why the gods hate her so much!
She's lost, but what fairytales does she still believe in if you don't mind me asking?

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For one thing, those girls might not have been as dumb as they were acting. But more importantly, you seem to equate intelligence with any ability to change: given that definition, there is no such thing as a stupid person. However, the issue is how quickly and how much one can evolve. Intelligent people can adapt a lot and rapidly; unintelligent people adapt little and slowly. Sansa has adapted very little and very slowly compared to many other characters (including her sister): in fact, I do not think that any of the other protagonists have evolved so little as Sansa has.
I do honestly think the word stupid is horribly problematic and no one is really stupid - I also don't think how fast someone realises something means much in terms of intelligence (there are just too many variables). I think the fact Sansa was raised with these ideas and wanted them to be true is an important distinction with Arya - who did not want any of it to be true for her so she questioned it from the start. This isn't intelligence imo, it's just the two of them had different wants and that shaped their ideas of the world differently.

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The young lady with whom to contrast Sansa is not Elinor, but Margaery. Margaery is only a couple of years old than Sansa, but Margaery is vastly more savvy politically and vastly more clever than Sansa.
Comparing her to Margaery is unfair because Margaery has the political knowledge of the Tyrells behind her. Queens of Thorns and her father to start. The girl was probably raised with a good sense of politics, and Sansa had to tell the Queen of Thorns how awful Joffrey was to confirm it anyway. We don't have a Margaery point of view anyway, so we can't really assume anything about her. I seriously doubt her family is leaving her to figure this out all by herself though.

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Still, the "why" is much less important than the "what" here: and the "what" is that Sansa is far and away the most passive protagonist of the series and, really, of any series I've ever read. (Heck, even Anna Karenina was more active!).
I still don't get why someone being passive is a bad thing. It doesn't automatically mean stupidity, and Sansa's chapters were by far the most interesting to me in AFFC, so it's not an excitement thing either. I have a feeling her story is far from over.


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  #406  
Old October 21st, 2012, 11:36 pm
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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire

SPOILER!!! I thought that you guys might enjoy this


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  #407  
Old October 22nd, 2012, 6:13 am
LyannaS  Female.gif LyannaS is offline
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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire

That was great, Flimseycauldron!

Can someone remind me - what did Arya do with Needle, where did she hide it, when she was a cupbearer at Harrenhal? I can't remember and lack the energy to go ploughing through CoK again to find out.



Last edited by LyannaS; October 22nd, 2012 at 6:33 am. Reason: Correct typo
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  #408  
Old October 22nd, 2012, 6:18 am
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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire

No, it is in Braavos with her. She hid it in some part of the stairs leading to the House of the Black and White. It's the small part of Arya Stark she can't give up.


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  #409  
Old October 22nd, 2012, 6:31 am
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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire

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No, it is in Braavos with her. She hid it in some part of the stairs leading to the House of the Black and White. It's the small part of Arya Stark she can't give up.
Thanks, Lord Godric. I knew she had it with her when she fled Harrenhal, and my question was, where was it when she was serving as cupbearer? A low-born servant boy or girl could hardly own a sword, so she must have hidden it somewhere, I just can't remember where. This is way before she gets to Bravos.


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  #410  
Old October 22nd, 2012, 6:45 am
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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire

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Thanks, Lord Godric. I knew she had it with her when she fled Harrenhal, and my question was, where was it when she was serving as cupbearer? A low-born servant boy or girl could hardly own a sword, so she must have hidden it somewhere, I just can't remember where. This is way before she gets to Bravos.
Oh, she didn't have it then. It was stolen by Polliver before she was a cupbearer. After escaping from Harrenhal and traveling with the Hound they run into Polliver again and she steals the sword back after her and the Hound killed Pollover.


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  #411  
Old October 22nd, 2012, 3:00 pm
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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire

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If Arya hadn't been able to escape though (and I don't know if she could have done it by herself at this point in the story), I don't see her surviving court life, especially with Cersei right there with her. Sooner or later her attemps to escape would have been the end of her, or would have at least ended up with her locked underneath the red keep imo. I don't agree with you that trying to escape would have automatically been smarter than staying in King's Landing and playing the part, and I don't think that's what GRRM is trying to show. I never got the sense that he is elevating one sister above the other. Both Arya and Sansa went through horrible things, despite their massive differences. And both of their stories have converged into a similar path imo - they both need to become someone else.
I find that my attitude toward Sansa has softened quite a bit. The main reasons that people don't like her are 1)how she handled Arya, Joffrey and Micah 2)her ratting Ned out, and 3) her attitude toward Jon. All of Sansa's actions, while on their surface somwhat reprehensible, were dictated by a combination of her circumstances and her personality. Much of which should be laid at the feet of Catelyn and Ned. They raised her, and most importantly loved her, despite her flaws. She acted spoiled because she was spoiled. Ned could have stepped in with Sansa and Jon but instead left Sansa to Catelyn who had a clear bias against Jon. Even in the Micah debacle Ned was still spoiling her, in a way, by killing Lady himself. The Hand of the King should have been able to have Lady spared, not kill her himself. He really undermined his authority in that instance, in his daughter's eyes. He should have left Lady's execution to Robert's discretion, imho, and made it very clear to Sansa that these were the awful kinds of people that they were dealing with. But he didn't. Even when he was admitting to treason, he let his love for Sansa get in the way of his good judgement. The main thing he communicated to her was that there nothing that she could say or do would free her from doom. Even though Sansa wound up having the measure of the Lannister's after Ned's death Ned had communicated to her that it was okay to give up your ideals rather than die for a noble cause. Through out the rest of the series I believe that she remains so passive for this very reason. She has found a way to stay alive, which is no worse than what Ned was attempting to do.


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I'm sorry but I disagree. One great idea is worth more than 100 bad ones imo. And the Hound offered to keep Sansa safe when he told her he was leaving King's Landing. She stayed because she was afraid of him, and had Florian anyway. I'd say she made the right choice there. Every move someone makes is a decision - to keep Cersei and Joffrey happy, to keep the other women during the battle calm, to become Alayne because the other options would have just led to an awful conclusion.
Yes. Even a non-choice is a choice. If she had made different, more Arya like decisions, she would not have been making a decision consistent with her personality. To paraphrase a blog I read some time ago: women throughout history have lived to the fullness of their personalities and situations, not to the fullness of their lives compared to our lives). By the time that she was offerend the opportunity to escape she was justifiably gunshy and weary. She had some measure of support in Florian and knew enough of herself that the hardships of roadlife would be unbearable for her. She was learning how to maneuver through the court as best she could.

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I do honestly think the word stupid is horribly problematic and no one is really stupid - I also don't think how fast someone realises something means much in terms of intelligence (there are just too many variables). I think the fact Sansa was raised with these ideas and wanted them to be true is an important distinction with Arya - who did not want any of it to be true for her so she questioned it from the start. This isn't intelligence imo, it's just the two of them had different wants and that shaped their ideas of the world differently.

I agree with this. Also, as I said above, her whole life growing up she was truly loved and praised for being exactly who she was, which was somewhat vain and more than a little narcissistic. She expected King's Landing to be just a grander version of what she experienced at Winterfell. And Septa Mordane was not the person to lead her through the political sphere of court. Catelyn should have been there with her. Since Catelyn could not go because of Bran, none of her children should have gone, imho.

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Comparing her to Margaery is unfair because Margaery has the political knowledge of the Tyrells behind her
This is true, and in addition, Sansa's position as the child of the Hand brings about a whole unique set of challenges.


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I still don't get why someone being passive is a bad thing. It doesn't automatically mean stupidity, and Sansa's chapters were by far the most interesting to me in AFFC, so it's not an excitement thing either. I have a feeling her story is far from over.
Joffrey is dead and Sansa is still very much alive, in a position to know more about the situation in court than any of her siblings including Arya. I imagine much of what, and who, she knows will become very important.

ETA: To the question of why Ned confronted the Queen. Some say that Ned was just trying to be honorable and save face for Robert. I would agree to the second, not so much to the first. I think Ned carried with him an almost prideful arrogance. It is true that within the confines of Winterfell that he was quite noble. But it's easy to do the right thing when everyone around you loves you. Not quite so easy to do the right thing when you are surrounded by enemies. We all know of all the horrible plots that Cersei finagled but the thing you have to remember is that once you tell a lie it almost always follows that another lie will have to be told so that the truth isn't revealed. And so on and so forth with each new plot almost necessary to keep the whole charade going. I mean from Cersei's perspective, she had to continue just to protect the children. It was either the throne for them, or outcasts, but more than likely death at least for her. Which would leave the children to be manipulated by enemies. Ned assumed that once she was busted that she would find a graceful way to back out. But for Cersei (and Jaime even) there was no backing out. It was either them or Ned and if they had to be ruthless, so be it.

As to Jon's parentage. I do believe that he is Ned's illegitimate son. And I don't think it was to protect Jon that Ned was vague about Jon's mother. For him to be Lyanna's son with Rhaegar would have been difficult. To hide a pregnancy for that long with no one, no one, being any the wiser, is highly unlikely especially with people loyal to the Targaryens looking for any excuse to overthrow Robert. Then to just come home with a baby. Again, was Ned with the mother for the whole 9 months? Did he find out after Jon's birth that he was the father? If I had to take a guess by the way Ned blew off Robert when Robert suggested Jon's mother was nothing more than a harlot. He had real feelings for this woman. He admitted as much that Catelyn deserved better. I highly doubt he would say something like that to maintain the fiction that Jon was his nephew not his son. Ned knew this woman and he was emotionally involved with her. Probably throught out the whole pregnancy. I think he wasn't lying to protect Jon. He was lying to protect Jon's mother from something.


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  #412  
Old October 22nd, 2012, 9:38 pm
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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire

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Oh, she didn't have it then. It was stolen by Polliver before she was a cupbearer. After escaping from Harrenhal and traveling with the Hound they run into Polliver again and she steals the sword back after she and the Hound killed Pollover.
Thanks, Lord Godric. I had forgotten that episode where Polliver steals Needle and Arya getting it back later. I thought I saw her carrying it when they fled Harrenhal, but I now think that I saw her holding Needle earlier, before it was stolen. I mean in the TV series, of course. The book I read so long ago, details like that are hazy.

Interesting quote about women, Flimseycauldron. Yes, Sansa is a good illustration of that. She used to irk me, but now I feel sorry for her more than anything else. Her fairy tale really went down the drain, didn't it.


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  #413  
Old October 23rd, 2012, 8:00 pm
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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire

The reaction to Sansa Stark is proof that people are just SO much more critical of female characters than of male ones, especially when they make mistakes. Sansa is 11 at the beginning of the series, still a child, yet somehow people forget that. And why are feminine traits seen as negative? You don't need to be a bad-*** like Arya or Brienne to be a strong woman.


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  #414  
Old October 23rd, 2012, 11:25 pm
LyannaS  Female.gif LyannaS is offline
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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire

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The reaction to Sansa Stark is proof that people are just SO much more critical of female characters than of male ones, especially when they make mistakes. Sansa is 11 at the beginning of the series, still a child, yet somehow people forget that. And why are feminine traits seen as negative? You don't need to be a bad-*** like Arya or Brienne to be a strong woman.
I respectfully disagree. Personally, I wasn't judging Sansa as a female character per se, but as a character, period. One very well drawn up by GRRM. I was also critical of her father. Had we discussed Petyr or Stannis, Robert, Jaime or Theon, I'd have lit into them too.

Sansa was not 11 in GoT, she was 13. Both in the book and in the series (there's that scene where Cersei tells her "Aren't you the pretty one! How old are you? Have you bled yet?", the answers being, both in the book and the series, "13" and "No". (BTW, Sophie Turner looks older than 13 or even 15 but that's beside the point. The Stark parents are also played by actors older than the book characters are.) Though I grant you that 13 is not very old either and yes, we should give her a break because of that. However, Arya is even younger, and Margaery just slightly older. Yet they both are a lot more pro-active than Sansa.

I don't think Sansa is a strong person. Flexible, yes, that's how she survives. But strong, no, not in my opinion.

Nor do I think that being a starry-eyed coward, traitor and liar is a "feminine trait".


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  #415  
Old October 24th, 2012, 2:33 am
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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire

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Sansa was not 11 in GoT, she was 13. Both in the book and in the series (there's that scene where Cersei tells her "Aren't you the pretty one! How old are you? Have you bled yet?", the answers being, both in the book and the series, "13" and "No". (BTW, Sophie Turner looks older than 13 or even 15 but that's beside the point. The Stark parents are also played by actors older than the book characters are.) Though I grant you that 13 is not very old either and yes, we should give her a break because of that. However, Arya is even younger, and Margaery just slightly older. Yet they both are a lot more pro-active than Sansa.
Her being 13 doesn't change Chrysalis' point though. 13 or 11 or 12, she's still way too young to be getting all of this hate imo (I don't mean by you specifically or anyone in this thread, I mean the fandom in general). Ned's an adult who made way more mistakes, yet I've never seen hate towards him. Dislike yes, and of course people thinking he made mistakes, but i've never seen the amount of hatred Sansa or Catelyn get be directed at him or Robb. The world is misogynist - it's not really surprising that the ASOIAF fandom is too. Male characters can get away with a lot more than female characters, especially traditionally feminine characters imo.

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Nor do I think that being a starry-eyed coward, traitor and liar is a "feminine trait".
Traditionally feminine traits are things like wanting to be a princess, finding her one true love/prince, loving dresses and knitting, and being passive and submissive. This is what people tend to mean when they say Sansa is a traditionally feminine character imo.


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Old October 24th, 2012, 3:01 pm
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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire

I understand what people are saying about Sansa's age. In present times judging an 11-13 ear old harshly would be unjust and unfair. But in medieval times an 11-13 year old would be getting betrothed! Especially the first daughter of a prominant house. This necessarily ages a character and thus what can be expected of her. In my opinion, Sansa's age is irrelevent compared to how she was raised and how she has conducted herself before and after Ned's death...Those actions are unique to her. While certain expectations of her can be made, no one (at least in text) can truly appreciate her position. Secondly I want to point out that most of the other "Ladies" that we have met (namely Cersei and Catelyn and Lyssa) have been portrayed by GRRM to be catty, vindictive, mean, and cunning and even somewhat mad. Even if you want to look at Margery all her actions had to be very covert and necessitated alot of lying and obfuscation. Not exactly "ladylike" traits either. As to Arya she may have indeed been proactive but her proactiveness led her into disaster as well. So being proactive does not necessarily mean you are doing the right thing either. Catelyn was very proactive, as well, but much of her proactiveness was pure foolishness. But again they get a pass for stupidity because they are proactive about working against the crown. Which is unfair. Stupidity is stupidity no matter which hat it wears. Also every time I get a Sansa POV I do not get the feeling that she is an antagonist. I still very much get the feeling that she is on the side of good and that she will be instrumental later in the series. Now, in comparing Sansa to someone to the like of Ned...He was shown to be noble right from the outset of the series. He also had a great sense of his own limitations (which Catelyn overrode him on) Sansa was never shown to be noble or to really have any admirable qualities really before she started to make her mistakes.


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Old October 26th, 2012, 12:11 am
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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire

It's a misogynist world, and women have to use manipulation and sexuality to get their way. That is the whole point. Also, Sansa has been coddled by Ned and Catelyn and she has grown up with fairytales about brave knights and beautiful maidens. The fault lies with the adults taking advantage of her, not with her for being naive girl. Sansa's passivity is actually much more useful than Arya's rashness in some circumstances. As for Catelyn, she was only doing what she thought was best for her family, period. She was led by her maternal instincts. Even Maege Mormont said that she would've done the same, sent Jaime Lannister in exchange for her daughters!

If anyone wins an award for sheer stupidity, it is Robb Stark, in my opinion. With one rash act he undid all of Catelyn's hard work and sealed their doom. Next is Jon Snow.

There are plenty of adults who believe that those who are beautiful can't be horrible people. One can hardly fault a 13-year-old for thinking that way, let alone one so sheltered as Sansa.


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Old October 26th, 2012, 9:03 pm
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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire

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If anyone wins an award for sheer stupidity, it is Robb Stark, in my opinion. With one rash act he undid all of Catelyn's hard work and sealed their doom.
That I entirely agree with.

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Next is Jon Snow.
Why?

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There are plenty of adults who believe that those who are beautiful can't be horrible people. One can hardly fault a 13-year-old for thinking that way, let alone one so sheltered as Sansa.
But she SAW what he was like, she suffered from it. And apart for once or twice when she stood her ground, she still worshipped her "beloved" Joffrey for the longest time.


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  #419  
Old October 26th, 2012, 9:18 pm
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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire

I mostly chalk the whole "sansa still thinking Joff was great" after the lady stuff to "if Arya hadn't been playing with Micah". which i guess is sorta true. Even though she had seen his true colors then, she could move the blame to someone else. At the end of the book, she couldn't.


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Old October 27th, 2012, 10:38 am
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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire

LyannaS, Joffrey was sweet and gallant one minute and cruel the next. Even many adult women can't see through this, so how can we expect a thirteen-year-old? If it were so easy, adult women would not suffer domestic violence. Abusers can be utterly charming, that's why so many people get sucked in.

As for Jon Snow, he was warned by Melisandre that he was in danger. She warned him at least to keep Ghost with him at all times. He was idiotic for bringing the giant to the Wall and to fetch thousands of wildlings when there was not even enough food to last them through the winter.


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