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A Song of Ice and Fire



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  #441  
Old November 11th, 2012, 10:35 pm
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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire

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Originally Posted by flimseycauldron View Post
IMO, it's funny how people see Tyrion riding a dragon. Those dragons are Dany's and I don't see her letting just anyone ride her dragon. And as much as fans like Tyrion he doesn't earn people's like or trust easily. I know that I am just being sentimental but I really think that if anyone is going to ride a dragon it is going to be Bran. Tyrion is deformed but he can still walk and is mobile. Bran is crippled and can no longer really indulge his love of high places. In my opinion he never climbed just for the sake of climbing. He climbed because of what he could see when he got to the top. BRAN on a dragon...that seems much more logical and more "story-esque" if you will. Make it happen GRRM.
Bran's my favorite character, so I'd love for him to have something so epic happen to him. But I think his path is one similar to Bloodraven's. Where he'll have an tremendous effect of the lives of everyone in Westeros for a very long time, but no one will know. It makes me sad, because he is so young, but I doubt that he'll ever leave the cave he's currently in.

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As to Dany not being fit to rule. I believe this to be untrue. It is true that she would need help having not been raised in the ways of Westeros. But I believe that she would adapt well, just as she did with the Dothraki. I don't think all the rulers would have to ride dragons. I think Dany would be Queen, one of the Riders would be the Hand (BRAN!!!!!), and the third perhaps the Captain of her Queensguard (Arya!!!!). (I know that neither child is old enough yet to be in those roles but I can indulge in a little fan fiction.)
I really don't think Dany adapts. With the Dothraki she did, but ever since then she doesn't adapt instead she forces the world around her to try and adapt to her expectations and it has led to a huge mess that she still is stuck in.


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  #442  
Old November 12th, 2012, 3:32 am
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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire

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Well I don't think it's a random choice at all. He's clearly on a path where he'll meet Dany, and assuming she doesn't just kill him for his last name, I see him helping her learn to rule. Tyrion's tenure as Hand was probably the best governing we've seen from any leader in the series, as of yet. And I think Dany really needs some lessons on how to properly rule.
I don't know what Tyrion would have told her that would have lead to a solution to all the problems in Mereen though. However I do agree that if they meet (I hope so! That scene in the fighting pits was such a tease!) this would probably be the role GRRM assigns him. That said, him becoming a head of a dragon seems a bit much. I'd also be interested in how he would gain that much trust from Dany (or from her dragons for that matter).

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I think Stannis would be a good ruler, but he's not personally likeable and he could never win the love of the people. That plus the fact that he seems fated to be killed by Dany, and I can't put my weight behind him, because I don't think it'll happen.
Fated to kill Dany? I'd love to hear your thoughts - that sounds like an interesting theory! Also, I don't think he's been shown to be that great of a ruler. His treatment of his troops in DWD is pretty awful imo. He's too stubborn for his own good imo.

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I personally don't want Dany to rule either. I think she's a horrible leader and I think she needs to learn that she is not destined to rule. The only good ending I can think of for Dany is one in which she sacrifices herself for the people of Westeros to help save them. With that said, the series (and just fantasy tropes) seems to be leading towards Dany regaining the throne. And if she must, I'd like to see other personalities balance out hers. Plus I don't think she's knows how to rule nor can she realistically learn before the end of the series, so she'd need help there.
Most of Dany's problems in Meereen come from the fact she freed the slaves that the economy runs on, and got rid of the fighting pits. This isn't something she's going to have to deal with in Westeros, as slavery is banned and tournaments aren't there to intentionally kill people. She listens to her advisors though, and often takes what they say into account. She sat through requests from the people for hours on end - which is where I think any comparison to Robert fails (he didn't even show up to the council meetings). She's got better morals than most rulers in Westeros, and she tries to be as fair as possible. She locked her own dragons up because Drogon killed a child, and married for her people, so we know she is capable of making huge sacrifices as well. Yes she needs advisors, but what ruler doesn't?

I'm not sold on her winning the iron throne though. My theory is she'll either be ruler of Westeros at the end of the series, or she'll die saving westeros from the others. The latter seems more like GRRM's style...


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And she's always seemed like such an inconsistent character, swinging between both extremes of excessive cleverness and inept teenybopper. I think she's much too immature and entitled, and, like you said, I don't think she can realistically achieve such growth by the end.
Anyone who wants the iron throne could be called entitled. I've only heard people criticizing Dany and Cersei over it though.


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  #443  
Old November 23rd, 2012, 5:59 am
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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire

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Well seeing as Aegon probably isn't a real Targaryen and Martin said the three heads of the dragon don't have to be Targaryens, I'm betting on them being Dany, Jon and Tyrion. I think they could successfully run the kingdom.
That would be a nicely balanced threesome, yes.

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As for Jon's vows, if he's really dead but somehow gets revived (ie Melisandre's magic) his watch will have ended because he died. So he'd be free of his vows.
We're not really sure he's dead, though, are we? We only know he's been stabbed 4 times and didn't feel anything but cold with the 4th blow. But your theory of his being dead, thus freed from his vows, then revived to ascend the Iron Throne is very attractive.


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  #444  
Old November 23rd, 2012, 8:15 am
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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire

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We're not really sure he's dead, though, are we? We only know he's been stabbed 4 times and didn't feel anything but cold with the 4th blow. But your theory of his being dead, thus freed from his vows, then revived to ascend the Iron Throne is very attractive.
Other times when we have had the charcater whose POV we are currently reading from "dies" (BRAN, CAT or THEON), they aren't really dead. Now if the POV character sees someone else die (when Cat saw Robb) that person has stayed dead. So Jon"died" from his own POV i think means he's not dead. That's just my opinion.


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  #445  
Old November 24th, 2012, 6:45 am
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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire

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Fated to kill Dany? I'd love to hear your thoughts - that sounds like an interesting theory!
Fated to BE killed by Dany.

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Anyone who wants the iron throne could be called entitled. I've only heard people criticizing Dany and Cersei over it though.
Most of them definitely were. Renly, Joffrey, Dany, Balon, Stannis. They've all acted as if they are entitled to the Throne. A few of them have died, but of those that survive only Stannis has shown that he will try to win the people over. Sure, he decided it after being crushed at the Battle of the Blackwater and only to help himself in the long run. But deciding to help the defenses of the Wall is an action I respected. It's actions like those that I ultimately want to see from Dany, in regards to Westeros. I don't want her to act entitled, I want her to try and win the people over. And if that means she sacrifices herself to do so, then I can finally really respect her leadership.

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Originally Posted by FlamingStar View Post
Other times when we have had the charcater whose POV we are currently reading from "dies" (BRAN, CAT or THEON), they aren't really dead. Now if the POV character sees someone else die (when Cat saw Robb) that person has stayed dead. So Jon"died" from his own POV i think means he's not dead. That's just my opinion.
We've only seen one PoV character die. We heard about others through different PoVs, but only Catelyn have we been inside the head of when she died. And Catelyn really did die (she was just lucky enough to be resurrected). It was one of the few true deaths we've seen, besides Ned's and Robb's, and the only one we've been "inside" for. The way Jon's chapter ended is very similar to other cliffhangers we've seen where the fate of the character is left up in the air (Arya was struck with the axe, Brienne hanged, etc.) so Jon could very well be alive. It'd be a stretch, as its not easy to survive multiple stab wounds. Jon, also, seemed to be slipping into Ghost at the end of the chapter. Whether just because he was unconcious or for his second life we don't know. However, I think it would make more narrative sense if he died, at least temporarily and it also would explain the Prologue to "Dance" - where we see Varamyr Sixskins explaining to us how death and second life works for wargs.



Last edited by Lord Godric; November 24th, 2012 at 6:59 am.
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  #446  
Old November 25th, 2012, 10:16 pm
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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire

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Originally Posted by Lord Godric View Post
Most of them definitely were. Renly, Joffrey, Dany, Balon, Stannis. They've all acted as if they are entitled to the Throne. A few of them have died, but of those that survive only Stannis has shown that he will try to win the people over.
I dunno about that. Stannis is cold are cares more about the justice of the final purpose than the awful things he has to do to get there imo. Though we don't get his point of view, so who knows how much he struggled with the idea of killing his brother or pushing through the snowstorms. He seems cut off from the people imo.

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Sure, he decided it after being crushed at the Battle of the Blackwater and only to help himself in the long run. But deciding to help the defenses of the Wall is an action I respected. It's actions like those that I ultimately want to see from Dany, in regards to Westeros. I don't want her to act entitled, I want her to try and win the people over. And if that means she sacrifices herself to do so, then I can finally really respect her leadership.
My theory is that when Dany gets to Westeros it's going to be overrun by the others. Her story arc seems to be getting at something epic. (Big ice and fire battle = Dany's Dragons and the others maybe?) Dany has been doing nothing but trying to win the people over in Meereen. The floppy ears, sitting through hours and hours of her people's complaints, her treatment of the victims of the pale mare, her shutting down slavery - this isn't because of her entitlement. This is because she genuinly wants to be a good ruler who is good to the people who cannot defend themselves imo. I feel like she's sacrificed more than any other potential ruler in the series (she locked up her own children!).


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The way Jon's chapter ended is very similar to other cliffhangers we've seen where the fate of the character is left up in the air (Arya was struck with the axe, Brienne hanged, etc.) so Jon could very well be alive. It'd be a stretch, as its not easy to survive multiple stab wounds. Jon, also, seemed to be slipping into Ghost at the end of the chapter. Whether just because he was unconcious or for his second life we don't know. However, I think it would make more narrative sense if he died, at least temporarily and it also would explain the Prologue to "Dance" - where we see Varamyr Sixskins explaining to us how death and second life works for wargs.
I think the main issue I have with the idea of Jon's body not dying (I do think he warged into ghost) is that not only was he stabbed repeatedly - he was surrounded by lots of people who wanted him dead. The only person who really noticed Arya was Sandor, and we were told that Brienne did have the option of saving herself if she changed her mind. I also think that the prologue with the warging was put there as a hint that this was going to be Jon's fate.


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  #447  
Old February 5th, 2013, 2:02 pm
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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire

I'm currently on DWD - After The Feast, and i'm absolutely loving the series. Easily one of the best works i've ever read. I'll check in as soon as i'm done for in-depth discussions .


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  #448  
Old June 2nd, 2013, 11:36 pm
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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire

Well, the 3rd season of the TV series is drawing to a close. We all know that the viewers are in for one hell of a shock: the Red Wedding. I remember being taken completely off-guard by this when reading the book; after Lord Frey established guest rights, it seemed like the tension was released, and the question was: what was Robb's plan to retake the North? I remember also wondering if Robb would ever become as good at strategy as he was at tactics. Then..... bam.

Why do I bring that up here? Well, on the series thread
Spoiler: show
I'd have posted that as a spoiler
. We worry much less about the converse: what spoiler (or at least heavy hints) has the series offered us about what will happen in Books 6 & 7?

Of course, one view is: none. The Series Writers clearly have no idea what is going on, blah blah blah.... Well, given how heavily invested Martin has been, and given that both show runners and Martin have said that Martin agreed to let them do the series because of how well they understood the story (with the final question being: "Who is Jon Snow's mother?"), I am willing to dismiss this. After all, how many hardcore HP fans "knew" that Harry's scar was not a piece of Voldemort's soul or that Snape was just evil and not a friend of Harry's mother?

So, let's consider some basic questions and whether we've gotten any insights:
1. Who is Jon Snow's mother?
I don't think we've gotten anything new. The complete omission of Ashara Dayne is probably evidence that she was not it, but Dragons subsequently confirmed that by telling us that she had had a child: but a stillborn daughter, not a son. Lyanna has gotten a lot of mention, so clearly they want us to know about her.
2. What is Baelish's Game?
This is one place where I think that the series has gotten well ahead of the books. It was popular enough to state that Baelish was basically an Agent of Chaos 10 years ago, but other ideas existed. However, the series really has ramped up that idea. Baelish's exact motives are unclear, although obviously Catelyn is involved somewhere. Nevertheless, Baelish obviously see chaos and war as an opportunity to raise himself to a Power in Westeros. The idea that he's working with the White Walkers has not gotten any additional support. However, the show does make it much more clear that the Walkers do (in some capacities) work with some people if they do things like donate children! (What they do with Caster's sons still is quite opaque.)
3. Who is Varys' really supporting?
If people have paid close attention to the series, then they will know that Varys was helping Daenyrs and her brother from afar. That he might be using Danny as a smoke-screen to shield Aegon has not gotten any hints yet.
4. Was Jeyne Westerling pregnant with Robb's child and hidden from Jamie Lannister by passing her younger sister off as Jeyne?
The idea is that this son will be the New King in the North and finding/restoring him (no doubt to be named Eddard) will be a major focus of last two books. To be blunt, this is kind of the "Hermione is Harry's sister" hypothesis of Game of Thrones. Given that they've ditched Jeyne completely for Talisa, and given that Martin is using this plotline for Bran, I think that we can write this off.
5. Who are the 3 heads?
We've gotten nothing here.

There have been some smaller details, too. For example, a lot of people suspected that Arya and Gendry would wind up together in the end, and the TV series seemed to amp that up. (However, I'm sure that there are people who feel that it has done the opposite, much as some HP fans managed to see Harry+Hermione in the films!)

We also now have a backstory for why Osha so feared the White Walkers. I don't think that we ever got that in the book.

Are there other things that I'm missing?


EDIT: I think that these series also indicates that Robb's will is not going to be relevant. Indeed, the episode to introduce it was the one that Martin himself wrote! However, they just did the pregnant Talisa: which refueled the "Jeyne Westerling was pregnant with Robb's Heir" beliefs, I think. That one got knifed pretty quickly, however.


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  #449  
Old July 26th, 2013, 8:07 pm
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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire

New quote from GRRM:

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Q: Does this mean you don’t plan to use any of those that died in the TV show and not in the books ?

A: Not at all. If they are alive in the books, they are alive in the books, and may well turn up again. Irri (and Jhiqui) is still serving as Dany’s handmaid, Rakharo remains one of her bloodriders, Mago will definitely show up again. You will learn the fate of Pyat Pree in WINDS. The Thirteen are still one of the factions contending for power in Qarth. You may see more of Alayaya and Chataya as well, and you will definitely hear more of Jeyne Westerling.
Interested in seeing what role Jeyne will be playing in the future books! I had assumed her part in the story was over because of the tv show, but this could be interesting.


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  #450  
Old July 27th, 2013, 4:04 am
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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire

Thanks for sharing that quote. So I guess he's telling us that the TV show really tells us nothing about where the book plot is going. We can't predict future book developments based on the show. That is very interesting indeed.


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  #451  
Old July 29th, 2013, 12:20 am
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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire

I've been trying to get through reading Game of Thrones, and so far... it just hasn't drawn me into the story like the show has... I hope it gets better as it goes along, but so far it's felt rather tedious.


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  #452  
Old July 29th, 2013, 6:24 am
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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire

I felt that way too as I first started it.'i think for me it was all the characters' different point of views, but it gets better. It really does!


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  #453  
Old July 29th, 2013, 10:42 pm
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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire

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I felt that way too as I first started it.'i think for me it was all the characters' different point of views, but it gets better. It really does!
That might be it. All of that information coming at you at once can be a little bit overwhelming O_o.


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  #454  
Old July 30th, 2013, 7:31 am
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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire

There's a lot to absorb. I liked the multiple POVs, but it was the massive number of secondary characters that I found difficult. I was kind of "lucky" in a way. When the power went out last summer in the derecho, the only thing to do was retreat to the basement with a flashlight for a few days and read! Given that there was nothing else to do in the entire region, I had no trouble at all getting into GoT.


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  #455  
Old July 31st, 2013, 4:12 am
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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire

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There's a lot to absorb. I liked the multiple POVs, but it was the massive number of secondary characters that I found difficult. I was kind of "lucky" in a way. When the power went out last summer in the derecho, the only thing to do was retreat to the basement with a flashlight for a few days and read! Given that there was nothing else to do in the entire region, I had no trouble at all getting into GoT.
There's a lot to keep track of. I didn't mind the Prologue, I found it rather funny at times... . And the chapters themselves are ok, but it's just a lot to keep track of. So it tends to draw me out of the story a little bit.

Ah. Guess tv and stuff can make it a little harder to read a book.


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Old July 31st, 2013, 5:27 am
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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire

Once you get involved with the characters they're easier to keep track of, especially ones you grow fond of and the ones you despise.


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Old August 1st, 2013, 4:28 am
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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire

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Once you get involved with the characters they're easier to keep track of, especially ones you grow fond of and the ones you despise.
It's becoming a little easier to read now. Definitely, kind of like the show . Still hate Joffry .


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Old August 2nd, 2013, 1:37 am
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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire

I'm shocked - SHOCKED - that you still hate Joffrey!

But seriously, during the Will & Kate baby naming game, "Joffrey" was always one of the funniest name suggestions people came up with.


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  #459  
Old August 2nd, 2013, 3:25 am
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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire

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I'm shocked - SHOCKED - that you still hate Joffrey!

But seriously, during the Will & Kate baby naming game, "Joffrey" was always one of the funniest name suggestions people came up with.
He's evol I say . And I just found out tonight that two books of the series that I checked out are due back . Book two is one of them . So now onto speed reading book one, so hopefully I can speed read book two .

And then I'll be checking them out one at a time from now on, since my library gets them in out of order .

They just got in book 4... no point in picking it up though, since I can't read it .


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  #460  
Old August 10th, 2013, 9:22 pm
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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire

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Originally Posted by ccollinsmith View Post
Thanks for sharing that quote. So I guess he's telling us that the TV show really tells us nothing about where the book plot is going. We can't predict future book developments based on the show. That is very interesting indeed.
Yes and no. For example, the idea that Jeyne was pregnant with Rob's child is pretty much dead. It was a very badly thought out idea that depended largely on failing to understand that Martin would use subjective assessment to develop a character: Jamie, who's idea of feminine beauty is his middle-aged, mother-of-three and now somewhat pudgy sister Cersei, would see a teenage girl who never had borne children as "thin-hipped." It also failed to pick up that Jeyne's parents were in on the plan with the Lannisters all along. (Of course, the same people seemed to think that Cersei's complaints of her clothes having shrunk was evidence that she was pregnant again, missing the fact that it's a classic way to show someone denying that they are getting fat!)

Another idea that is almost certainly dead is that Robb's will is going to be important. In this case, it is not just that "the show" didn't mention it: it is that the episode that Martin himself wrote did not mention it!

Quote:
Originally Posted by ccollinsmith View Post
There's a lot to absorb. I liked the multiple POVs, but it was the massive number of secondary characters that I found difficult. I was kind of "lucky" in a way. When the power went out last summer in the derecho, the only thing to do was retreat to the basement with a flashlight for a few days and read! Given that there was nothing else to do in the entire region, I had no trouble at all getting into GoT.
Ah, I remember that storm....

One thing that Martin does well is reintroduce characters. (Rowling also was very good at that.) That is, when a character first appears, whoever is providing the point of view conveniently thinks a quick character synopsis. So, if it's been a couple of year since you've read the prior book, then there is a good chance that you will have memory cells jogged. If not, well, then at least you've gotten some rudimentary character development!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fawkesfan1 View Post
He's evol I say .
Ah, but that's the great thing about Thrones. Joffery is not "evil": he's just a grade-A jerk!


Hey, rumor has it that Martin wrote another page last week! Unfortunately, he left it on a table somewhere..... Seriously, supposedly the HBO executives have evidently started to lean of Martin a little hurry up and write. As someone who writes a lot myself, I don't think that "taking his time to get it right" really works: a lot of the time, you just have to sit down and spit it out as rapidly as you can while you are in a flow, and then go back later to tidy it up.


On another side note, there was an interesting article a couple of months ago about strong women in scifi and fantasy stories. They were asking different people why they did this. (Joss Whedon's answer: "Because you are still asking this question!" ) Martin was noted for writing a range of female characters, from the very weak to the very strong. Martin's response for why he did it? He paused and then said: "Because women are people?"

(The comment was bleeped on Fox News, I'm told.... )


__________________
(It doubles for The Hobbit, too!)
If in the first act you have hung a pistol on the wall, then in the following one it should be fired. Otherwise don't put it there.” - A. P. Chekhov, Gurlyand's Reminiscences, and who knew why the Dog was long before the Shack!

Last edited by Wimsey; August 10th, 2013 at 9:27 pm.
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