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  #41  
Old May 2nd, 2011, 9:37 am
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Re: Developing story: Bin Laden killed

BBC News is reporting that the US has buried Bin Laden's body at sea, so as to avoid a fixed burial place that followers would congregate around.


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  #42  
Old May 2nd, 2011, 9:52 am
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Re: Developing story: Bin Laden killed

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Originally Posted by Yoana View Post
That's what I was thinking and I'd started wondering if I'm crazy or something because everyone seems to be celebrating. And I'm in the camp of those who would have preferred a trial.
I'm the same. Something just seems so sick and wrong about celebrating someone's death. I'm happy he's not around anymore, but I could never say "I'm happy *person* is dead".

Also, burned at sea, already? Hopefully they got enough to convince everyone it's really him before they did so... (though having said that, there'll always be people who can't be convinced)


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  #43  
Old May 2nd, 2011, 10:52 am
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Re: Developing story: Bin Laden killed

First joke surrounding this story that I've heard: "Donald Trump demands to see the death certificate"


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  #44  
Old May 2nd, 2011, 11:10 am
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Re: Developing story: Bin Laden killed

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Originally Posted by NumberEight View Post
Imagine the millions in the streets of NYC when the verdict is about to be read aloud. Imagine the reaction. It's far more powerful.
I think the problem with taking him to trial would be the risk of turning him into a martyr (well, even more of a martyr than he is already) for Al-Qaeda. He truly believed in their cause, and a trial would have given him a platform to speak to the World. Whilst any right-thinking person understands that his thoughts and actions are horrific, there would be those who see somebody standing up for their ideologies despite the inevitable death sentence, and would see some dignity in that. No, I think it's much better that he has been killed without any warning and without giving him a chance to speak.

On a side-note, I never thought that I would be happy to hear that somebody was dead, but I think that I am happy that he has been killed. Well done the USA.


  #45  
Old May 2nd, 2011, 11:21 am
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Re: Developing story: Bin Laden killed

We will have to see what the backlash is in Afghanistan, Pakistan and in unstable Yemen.

Let's hope they will get Ayman al-Zawahiri at some point as well.


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  #46  
Old May 2nd, 2011, 11:57 am
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Re: Developing story: Bin Laden killed

Well I think this is the best scenario to be honest, I don't think it would have been pleasant to hear what he had to to say in any trial, and I'm sure he'd have shown absolutely no remorse and no compassion for the victims.

I'm not really that surprised he was found in an urban area, if I remember rightly Khalid Sheikh Mohammed was found in a Rawalpindi not in the tribal areas.

The other thing that bothers me slightly is that I'm not sure how wise it was to show all the scenes of jubilation in America, yes its a great day and course for celebration, but any terrorist seeing those kind of scenes is going to hate the West even more than they'd do already.


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  #47  
Old May 2nd, 2011, 12:00 pm
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Re: Developing story: Bin Laden killed

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Originally Posted by Morgoth View Post
First joke surrounding this story that I've heard: "Donald Trump demands to see the death certificate"
And he won't be happy until he sees! I find it very ironic that a Republican would question whether an enemy of the United States is dead, especially as they wouldn't have done if Bush or McCain were in charge.

Well, the world is a marginally safer place than it was yesterday. Now if only we could hunt down the president of Iran, Gaddafi, Assad and all the other loony dictators in the Middle East....


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Old May 2nd, 2011, 12:11 pm
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Re: Developing story: Bin Laden killed

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Originally Posted by Hysteria View Post
I agree. He would have got the death penalty, so the result would have been the same, but I think it would have offered more closure and justice to those he has caused so much pain to.

But yes, totally unrealistic.
Unfortunately totally unrealistic, yes.

I have the feeling, when there's no trial "possible" it not only raises the triumph of those who managed to kill the 'bad guy' and erase them from earth, but also the power of the according leader of terrorists. For particular the latter can't really get my support.

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Originally Posted by Wab View Post
It's one thing to be relieved and even pleased but I don't hold with triumphalism or gloating over any death.
Same here. I can understand relieve, although I think people might be mislead when they assume this ends an war. I certainly hope that would be true, but I'm afraid it rather starts / continues some more. I should be fair: there's barely a more efficient solution when one wants to fight against terrorism than trying to find a leader like Bin Laden. I just don't think we're even close to the end and our measures might partly run in wrong directions.

I can also understand many more emotions by those directly involved in 9/11 (as in: having lost family members and friends).

What I'll never understand is to celebrate a death. For me that's a too similar level of emotions terrorists treat their human targets with, and I certainly don't feel that way. I'm aware there is a very important difference related to the guilt of murder someone (in this case the terrorist) contains beforehand, but I still don't feel like cheering when someone dies.

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Originally Posted by Morgoth View Post
BBC News is reporting that the US has buried Bin Laden's body at sea, so as to avoid a fixed burial place that followers would congregate around.
I agree upon the reason, I wonder about the rush in which this happened.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hardcore_Raver View Post
I think the problem with taking him to trial would be the risk of turning him into a martyr (well, even more of a martyr than he is already) for Al-Qaeda. He truly believed in their cause, and a trial would have given him a platform to speak to the World. Whilst any right-thinking person understands that his thoughts and actions are horrific, there would be those who see somebody standing up for their ideologies despite the inevitable death sentence, and would see some dignity in that. No, I think it's much better that he has been killed without any warning and without giving him a chance to speak.
I see where you're coming from, but I feel killing him not only made him a bigger martyr (than seeing him trying to defend his actions), it also confirms the twisted image terrorists have of the US. All in all it probably doesn't matter much when we talk about his symbol status: he already had it, and it most likely couldn't be destroyed with any action a Western force could provide.


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  #49  
Old May 2nd, 2011, 12:15 pm
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Re: Developing story: Bin Laden killed

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Originally Posted by gertiekeddle View Post
I agree upon the reason, I wonder about the rush in which this happened.
I read that it was in accordance with sharia, which demands that the dead should be buried within 24 hours.


  #50  
Old May 2nd, 2011, 12:18 pm
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Re: Developing story: Bin Laden killed

I didn't catch that - makes much more sense so. Thanks!


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  #51  
Old May 2nd, 2011, 12:45 pm
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Re: Developing story: Bin Laden killed

Quote:
Originally Posted by gertiekeddle View Post
I see where you're coming from, but I feel killing him not only made him a bigger martyr (than seeing him trying to defend his actions), it also confirms the twisted image terrorists have of the US. All in all it probably doesn't matter much when we talk about his symbol status: he already had it, and it most likely couldn't be destroyed with any action a Western force could provide.
Yes, I agree with this. In this atmosphere of triumph, relief etc, I did find this interesting interview with a veteran journalist Robert Fisk who has interviewed bin Laden thrice, which is dismissive of his killing by US forces. He says it has come too late to make any big impact.

Quote:
"I've been saying for some time that I think whether he's dead or not is pretty irrelevant,"

"I think [Osama Bin Laden] lost his relevancy a long time ago actually,"
"If they'd have killed Bin Laden a year or two after 9/11 some of the breast beating that's going on in the United States... might have been relevant."


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  #52  
Old May 2nd, 2011, 12:49 pm
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Re: Developing story: Bin Laden killed

Quote:
Originally Posted by Morgoth View Post
First joke surrounding this story that I've heard: "Donald Trump demands to see the death certificate"
I saw this today:



  #53  
Old May 2nd, 2011, 1:12 pm
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Re: Developing story: Bin Laden killed

Personally, I'm mostly thinking of the numerous deaths, injuries and injustices that are the direct result of the war against terror. Yes, the best known terrorist was killed and relief and a certain feeling of closure are understandable. But I find the gloating and patriotic utterances of national superiority wholly inappropriate in the face of all the suffering that is still going on. Bin Laden was certainly not the source of all evil, though many treated him thus.


  #54  
Old May 2nd, 2011, 1:29 pm
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Re: Developing story: Bin Laden killed

I agree Mori. Especially considering terrorists just continue. Via @BBCBreaking:

Quote:
Bomb explodes near mosque in north west Pakistan. A woman and 3 children killed.


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  #55  
Old May 2nd, 2011, 1:38 pm
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Re: Developing story: Bin Laden killed

I'm not relieved at all. I'll just sit here and wait for the revenge. When it happens I'll throw in an obligatory "Told you so."

Did we hear from AQ, denying it yet?


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Old May 2nd, 2011, 1:42 pm
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Re: Developing story: Bin Laden killed

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Originally Posted by Tenshi View Post
Did we hear from AQ, denying it yet?
Not yet, I think. But the Pakistani Taliban has already threatened revenge.

Quote:
"If he has been martyred, we will avenge his death and launch attacks against American and Pakistani governments and their security forces," spokesman Ehsanullah Ehsan told AFP by telephone from an undisclosed location.


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  #57  
Old May 2nd, 2011, 1:44 pm
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Re: Developing story: Bin Laden killed

Quote:
Posted by Moriath
Personally, I'm mostly thinking of the numerous deaths, injuries and injustices that are the direct result of the war against terror. Yes, the best known terrorist was killed and relief and a certain feeling of closure are understandable. But I find the gloating and patriotic utterances of national superiority wholly inappropriate in the face of all the suffering that is still going on. Bin Laden was certainly not the source of all evil, though many treated him thus.
I agree totally with both of you, Hes and Mori. Terrible news about those who died in the mosque bombing.

I worry about the impact that the scenes of jubilation in the US are going to have on the battle for hearts and minds in the Middle East, as they seem to reinforce an "us and them" scenario. Bin Laden's era had seemed to be over: his star had been on the wane for some time and his extremist ideology appeared to be having less and less of an influence over young Muslims. But now, with this, my fear is that, to quote Yeats "A terrible beauty is born."

And, while I know how devastating the impact of Al Qaeda sponsored terrorism has been (I was only yards away when one of the London bombings occurred and I still have disturbing flashbacks when I hear unexpected loud noises), I do not believe that any good can ever come of trying elevate the 9/11 or 7/7 bombings above other mass murders. American and British lives are worth no more or less than the lives of other nationalities.


  #58  
Old May 2nd, 2011, 1:48 pm
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Re: Developing story: Bin Laden killed

I was cheering (in front of my tv) right along with those people at the White House, as I was watching CNN last night. I don't care what Taliban says about how he it was a "martyr" death and I would have never supported a trial against him. Osama being dead is the only way justice would have truly been served. If Osama was in custody, Al Qaeda would have done everything they could have to free him, resulting in the deaths of more Americans.

As such, no Americans were killed during the attack on Osama. This is truly a victory, long awaited, for the United States and all allies. We've waited for this for almost 10 years. The day has finally come. Hallelujah!


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Last edited by Fury; May 2nd, 2011 at 3:22 pm. Reason: Changed to the word "Taliban"
  #59  
Old May 2nd, 2011, 1:49 pm
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Re: Developing story: Bin Laden killed

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Originally Posted by Melaszka View Post
I read that it was in accordance with sharia, which demands that the dead should be buried within 24 hours.
That's what I've read as well - that his body was handled according to the customs and practices of Islam and that the burial followed those same customs and practices.

Reports indicate that he was found in a mansion outside Islamabad, apparently close to the Pakistani military academy. The location of the mansion alone implies to me that the Pakistani government had to have consented to it.

The entire mission took about 40 minutes - in and out. Apparently Osama was shot in the head when he and his bodyguards refused to surrender. One woman was killed when a body guard attempted to use her as a shield.

As far as victory - his death may not have much effect on the actual battle against extremism, but it is a great symbolic victory. Just as capturing Saddam and turning him over to his countrymen was a great symbolic victory.

Totally off topic, and were speculation on my part with nothing to back it up, but I can't help but wonder whether the holiday the newly wed royals were supposed to take was changed because of this. I can't imagine that having the future King of England anywhere near the Middle East would be a good thing in lieu of the possibility of retaliation following OBL's death.


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  #60  
Old May 2nd, 2011, 1:53 pm
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Re: Developing story: Bin Laden killed

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Originally Posted by Fury View Post
I don't care what Pakistan says about how he it was a "martyr" death and I would have never supported a trial against him. Osama being dead is the only way justice would have truly been served. If Osama was in custody, Al Qaeda would have done everything they could have to free him, resulting in the deaths of more Americans.
Please be careful. It's not the Pakistani government that says "he's a martyr" or "his death was a martyr death". It's the Taliban. In these cases with tensions and international relations at stake one needs to take care to be precise.


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