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Developing story: Bin Laden killed



 
 
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  #261  
Old May 5th, 2011, 8:58 pm
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Re: Developing story: Bin Laden killed

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Originally Posted by Midnightsfire View Post
A trial?
And how would that have gone about?

I'll repeat what I posted earlier; How can a person like this be taken prisoner? Where would he get a fair trial? What country could hold him without any reprisals? Not in the US, where just about anyone and everyone would want to to take a shot at him, including the president. And almost every muslim nation wouldn't want this "live grenade/ticking time bomb" in their borders, and the few that would, would be a target in some way shape or form.

Saddam Hussein was able to have a trial, many important war criminals were tried at Nuremberg- it is safe to assume that Hitler himself would probably have stood trial too if he hadn't killed himself. The terrorists are succeeding if they are frightening the Western world into abandoning their principles and I'm sure Bin Laden would have been very pleased to know that he was going to be executed without trial.


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  #262  
Old May 5th, 2011, 9:50 pm
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Re: Developing story: Bin Laden killed

The public isn't used to black ops stuff being played out to them this way, but it's an unfortunate fact of war that our governments have, at times, sanctioned the use of extreme force against an enemy too dangerous to be taken alive. Bin Laden's death is the most public Black-Ops take down in history and if we hadn't known the gritty details, it's likely we wouldn't have the need for philosophical discussion. The irony being that the more covert it is, the more room you have to make the truth up as you go along, but in this case the Administration is being brutally honest. "He wasn't armed. He didn't fire. But we killed him anyway." That probably describes a thousand operations of similar kinds against far less well known folk down the years. No government in the West is innocent of being dirty, the question we are really asking through all of this is, "why did we have to know all the details?"

It's unlikely that Bin Laden's capture would have ensured he gained a fair trial anyway and the US would have been incredibly weary of sending a man to an international criminal court since the al-Megrahi episode irrespective of the differing nature of the cases.

Plus in captivity you completely change the status of person. Whilst they're free, they can kill and injure, they're a menace, an outlaw and a focus for only the most extreme of individuals to idolise. In prison, their cause becomes a symbol that blunts the edges of their infamy and becomes an example to the world of oppression against a people. I don't think anyone would wish to see Bin Laden turn into the jihadists version of Nelson Mandela, but it risked becoming that had they caught him.

*shrug* I guess I am realistic to the point where I'm not surprised they killed him at all. I'm not surprised they did it to an unarmed man. I'm sat in an armchair narrating an event I wasn't at. Too easy to draw conclusions.


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  #263  
Old May 5th, 2011, 10:04 pm
wandrider  Male.gif wandrider is offline
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Re: Developing story: Bin Laden killed

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bonta Kun View Post
Saddam Hussein was able to have a trial, many important war criminals were tried at Nuremberg- it is safe to assume that Hitler himself would probably have stood trial too if he hadn't killed himself. The terrorists are succeeding if they are frightening the Western world into abandoning their principles and I'm sure Bin Laden would have been very pleased to know that he was going to be executed without trial.
It's hard to debate against this line of reasoning. Excellent points.

Capture was obviously not a high priority but, instead, a low priority. My theory is President Obama decided to limit, very narrowly, under what circumstances OBL could be taken alive. It was near impossible for OBL to be captured alive, because he had to say "I surrender" & raise his hands & not move, or he had to have a white flag meaning surrender & follow instructions.

Btw, OBL's wife said they were living in that fortress 3-story for 5 years!

I think we will get a lot more information in the future from the 20 children and 2 OBL wives that survived. They will certainly be used for propaganda purposes. Will they remain faithful to OBL?

Also, another curious fact to learn is how old was the eldest male that survived. If all the surviving boys were under, for example, 14yo, then it is safe to assume all older males were to be killed onsite. This is deduced from the fact an adult female was wounded that moved towards a SEAL team member. In other words, neutralize females by not killing, if possible, but kill all older males w/o absolute clear indication of surrendering upon encountering that male.



Last edited by wandrider; May 5th, 2011 at 11:03 pm. Reason: add clarity to my opinions
  #264  
Old May 5th, 2011, 10:17 pm
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Re: Developing story: Bin Laden killed

I think what everyone seems to be forgetting here is that the Seals did not have the luxury of time or information to sit and analyse their decisions. Missions of this kind rarely go according to plan. The team were basically on their own once inside the building. They were raiding the safe house of a person in charge of an organization that carried out suicide attacks. Osama could have been wearing a suicide vest, may have had the place rigged to blow up in the event of an attack etc. Hesitation could have meant disaster. One look at Osama would have been enough to determine whether he was resisting. I don't need a weapon to resist.

Frankly, the question I have is why the Seals spared the women and children. I wouldn't put it past bin Laden to have wired up his wife and kids. It would have been a disaster if the team spared the women and children only for them to trigger a detonation that took out the whole place. I'm guessing that US had intelligence on that matter. I haven't heard of Al-Qaeda using women and children as field operatives also.

At the end of the day, with the benefit of hindsight, we can come up with a lot of alternatives on what was to be done. Its not easy to come up with a proper plan with limited information. I was in Moscow when Nord-Ost theatre hostage crisis happened. The Special forces (Spetsnaz) gassed the theatre and most of the civilian deaths were because of the gas. I remember thinking that they botched it while the government was saying that it was a success and the casualty count would have been much higher otherwise. I'm still not convinced but I'm glad that I don't have to make these decisions. There is hardly ever an easy or right decision.


  #265  
Old May 5th, 2011, 10:24 pm
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Re: Developing story: Bin Laden killed

Quote:
Originally Posted by wandrider View Post
I think this might be picking-up on a lot of "fear factor", since there has been no major attacks since 2006 in Europe or the USA since 911 in 2001.
The Algerian bombing that killed 60 was in 2007, as were the foiled London bombings and the attempted attacks on Fort Dix. 2008 brought us the attack in Mumbai and the Yemini car bombs. 2009 gave us the underwear bomber and the Arkansas shooter. 2010 was the Times Square car bomb and the attempted cargo bombs. And those are just the attacks and / or attempts I was able to find.

Quote:
What's happened since then showed total incompetence & single person attacks that failed.
Except for Mumbai. And London. And the Cargo planes. And the underwear bomber.

Quote:
The sooner we get out of Afghanistan & Iraq with military engagement, then the sooner we will produce less terrorism, imo.
Except that terrorism pre-dated both Iraq and Afghanistan.


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  #266  
Old May 5th, 2011, 10:58 pm
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Re: Developing story: Bin Laden killed

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Originally Posted by monster_mom View Post
The Algerian bombing that killed 60 was in 2007, as were the foiled London bombings and the attempted attacks on Fort Dix. 2008 brought us the attack in Mumbai and the Yemini car bombs. 2009 gave us the underwear bomber and the Arkansas shooter. 2010 was the Times Square car bomb and the attempted cargo bombs. And those are just the attacks and / or attempts I was able to find.

Except for Mumbai. And London. And the Cargo planes. And the underwear bomber.

Except that terrorism pre-dated both Iraq and Afghanistan.
As I qualified my statement "no major attacks" (Europe/USA), and what I mean by that is there has been nothing successful. Attempting & failing is not a major attack, imo. Algeria & Mumbai is not European or USA territory.

Yes, terrorism pre-dated both Iraq & Afghanistan, and so we never invaded any country for that, ever, until after 911. Iraq makes no sense at all, period, and Afghanistan is no longer a threat with OBL & his group being there.

Shall we invade Pakistan next, since it is likely that many terrorists are there that have attacked US forces or were part of 911? After all, Pakistan just "allowed" (no plausible denial) the most famous terrorist in the world to live right down the street from their officer military academy for 5 years! How about Yemen where an American promotes violence against America by his voice-ideas alone?

Honestly, I think Americans have their fraidy-cat buttons pushed by "fear factors" that don't promote rational responses to terrorism. The foreign nation terrorist wars are over, imo, bye bye Afghanistan & Iraq, etc. etc. I'm not afraid of the boogie man that is not proven to exist yet. Sorry, OBL is dead, OBL ideology is not gaining support but is losing support, and no one else is attacking for now.


  #267  
Old May 5th, 2011, 11:36 pm
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Re: Developing story: Bin Laden killed

I think Obama's approach to handling terrorist threats makes a whole lot more sense than sending in cumbersome traditional armies and what-not. You could fill a large tome with what I don't know about warfare, but it doesn't take a rocket scientist to see that good intelligence, combined with special-ops police work, is the most effective strategy.


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  #268  
Old May 6th, 2011, 12:08 am
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Re: Developing story: Bin Laden killed

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Originally Posted by purplehawk View Post
I think Obama's approach to handling terrorist threats makes a whole lot more sense than sending in cumbersome traditional armies and what-not. You could fill a large tome with what I don't know about warfare, but it doesn't take a rocket scientist to see that good intelligence, combined with special-ops police work, is the most effective strategy.
I agree if at the same time President Obama is planning on leaving Afghanistan even before the next election, and he stops engaging Afghan people by military force using American soldiers. I have no problem with some training help for the Afghanistan military or police, but we can't pay their paychecks either. They have to become self-sufficient and not dependent on us. I have no problem doing drone surveillance & attacks from Afghanistan beyond 2012 if necessary.

I'm totally against being there for nation building, since that is really up to the Afghanistan people. They have their own destiny to do independently. The cost of warfare is far too high to even attempt such notions, and Afghanistan is not a terrorist nation state anymore. Pakistan is a terrorist nation state.

The way to prevent terrorism is to screen the foreign nationals that visit the USA correctly. That's not 100% prevention, but it is good enough for now, imo. I believe President Obama made the right decisions including not capturing OBL alive.


  #269  
Old May 6th, 2011, 12:40 am
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Re: Developing story: Bin Laden killed

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Originally Posted by Morgoth View Post
It's unlikely that Bin Laden's capture would have ensured he gained a fair trial anyway
I don't think anyone would argue that Adolf Eichmann, the Nazi high command, the Japanese high command had fair trials. But justice was not only done but, more importantly, it was seen to be done. Justice conducted in secrecy is not justice but a tool of totalitarian states.

Quote:
he US would have been incredibly weary of sending a man to an international criminal court since the al-Megrahi episode irrespective of the differing nature of the cases.
Historically wrong.

Megrahi was not tried before an international tribunal but the Scottish High Court of Justiciary (although it was based in the Netherlands).

His trial was also a farce as far as fairness went as the crucial witness was a shopkeeper who said he remembered selling specific items of clothing to a specific customer 12 years earlier. After the trial the Lord Advocate described the key witness as "an apple short of a picnic" and "not quite the full shilling".

Quote:
I don't think anyone would wish to see Bin Laden turn into the jihadists version of Nelson Mandela, but it risked becoming that had they caught him.
You're right. Perhaps South Africa should have offed Mandela as they did Steve Biko. Would have saved them no end of trouble.

This is not to say that the circumstances didn't warrant what happened. But automatically assume a person does not deserve a trial is not the thought of a person who believes in human rights and democracy.


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Last edited by Wab; May 6th, 2011 at 1:13 am.
  #270  
Old May 6th, 2011, 1:38 am
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Re: Developing story: Bin Laden killed

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Originally Posted by Wab View Post
But automatically assume a person does not deserve a trial is not the thought of a person who believes in human rights and democracy.
What does this say about President Obama who is not only a trained lawyer & past editor of the Harvard Law Review, but he is also a specialist with expertise in the United States Constitution and Bill of Rights? He was also awarded with the Nobel Peace Prize.

Is this the individual vs State rights or what? Comments?

Of course, OBL was not a citizen of the USA, and I would assume he is considered a military target whether asleep in bed with his pajamas on or actively engaging in terrorist activities.



Last edited by wandrider; May 6th, 2011 at 1:42 am. Reason: add clarity to my opinions
  #271  
Old May 6th, 2011, 1:50 am
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Re: Developing story: Bin Laden killed

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Originally Posted by wandrider View Post
What does this say about President Obama who is not only a trained lawyer & past editor of the Harvard Law Review, but he is also a specialist with expertise in the United States Constitution and Bill of Rights? He was also awarded with the Nobel Peace Prize.
It says that his credentials are rendered worthless now that he's a president and shown that he is not the liberal he ran on. Remember, he called for a capture and kill order on an American citizen.

Edit: That should be capture OR kill.



Last edited by NumberEight; May 6th, 2011 at 1:54 am.
  #272  
Old May 6th, 2011, 2:02 am
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Re: Developing story: Bin Laden killed

Everyone knows exactly what Osama did. There is no ambiguity in this case. Nobody can truly say Osama didn't have a trial.

Osama is recognized as one of the most irredeemable characters in human history from the U.S. standpoint. In the future I wouldn't be surprised if Godwin's law includes Osama.


There is no justice to be had here.

September 11th wasn't preventable under law. It wasn't an act of war fought between soldiers. 9/11 (as its referred to in the US) was a senseless act of violence perpetuated primarily to be an emotional weapon against a nation. This was a crime not only on the national/global scale, but on a great emotional level. I have no idea what "justice" would look like in this case. I don't even know if it is a question of "justice" when the problem is that your people as a nation now live under fear because of this guy. A trial forces people to go through a lot of the emotional pain, and what president would make his nation relive the moment they collectively wet themselves before hanging/shooting a man that may already be dying from disease? The futility of the execution would not be lost upon the nation I think. Once every amount of information was examined, I think a lot of people would realize that nothing would bring back the dead, that the emotional hole left by the man would be around longer than he ever could. I think once I considered all of this I would have ordered him shot in his bed. I think the responsibility to my people would demand it since I don't think Justice could be had.


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  #273  
Old May 6th, 2011, 2:09 am
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Re: Developing story: Bin Laden killed

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Originally Posted by Midnightsfire View Post
I don't even know if it is a question of "justice" when the problem is that your people as a nation now live under fear because of this guy.
Unjustified fear that was ratcheted up by politicians so the public would support their warmongering causes.


  #274  
Old May 6th, 2011, 2:18 am
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Re: Developing story: Bin Laden killed

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Originally Posted by Midnightsfire View Post
Everyone knows exactly what Osama did. There is no ambiguity in this case.
There was no ambiguity about the case of Mandela's actions with Umkhonto we Sizwe. Would you have supported the South African government murdering Mandela.

Quote:
Nobody can truly say Osama didn't have a trial.
No one can honestly say he did.

Quote:
Osama is recognized as one of the most irredeemable characters in human history from the U.S. standpoint.
You speak for an entire nation?

Anyway, who cares what an individual nation thinks? The basic fundamentals of rule of law predates just about every nation existing today.

From the Cambodian viewpoint I'd dare say that Ronald Reagan was irredeemable given his support for the genocidal regime of Pol Pot. Maybe they should have assassinated Reagan.


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Last edited by Wab; May 6th, 2011 at 2:29 am.
  #275  
Old May 6th, 2011, 2:59 am
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Re: Developing story: Bin Laden killed

Quote:
Originally Posted by Midnightsfire View Post
Everyone knows exactly what Osama did. There is no ambiguity in this case. Nobody can truly say Osama didn't have a trial.
I've seen quite a few people say exactly that. Whether I agree with them or not, I'm not sure you can speak for the entire country. If as you say everyone knows and nobody dissents, then how would you explain the persisting conspiracy theories surrounding 9/11?


  #276  
Old May 6th, 2011, 4:25 am
Midnightsfire  Undisclosed.gif Midnightsfire is offline
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Re: Developing story: Bin Laden killed

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Originally Posted by NumberEight View Post
Unjustified fear that was ratcheted up by politicians so the public would support their warmongering causes.
NYC says "Hello!"

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Originally Posted by Wab View Post
There was no ambiguity about the case of Mandela's actions with Umkhonto we Sizwe. Would you have supported the South African government murdering Mandela.
Not the topic.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wab View Post
You speak for an entire nation?
It's already in high school history books.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wab View Post
Anyway, who cares what an individual nation thinks?
Anyone with a sound grasp of international affairs cares what the more powerful nations thinks. Just ask Pakistan.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wab View Post
The basic fundamentals of rule of law predates just about every nation existing today.
Basic history lesson; the rule of law is predicated upon power. And that power has always been the ability to kill.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wab View Post
From the Cambodian viewpoint I'd dare say that Ronald Reagan was irredeemable given his support for the genocidal regime of Pol Pot. Maybe they should have assassinated Reagan.
Offtopic again. But I'll bite. They could have tried to assassinate Reagan. But they lacked that basic fundamental..power.
Quote:
Originally Posted by canismajoris View Post
If as you say everyone knows and nobody dissents, then how would you explain the persisting conspiracy theories surrounding 9/11?
Oh? and is that really the topic? (mod squad already said no going there I believe)

But who on earth is going to say OBL was innocent?


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  #277  
Old May 6th, 2011, 4:44 am
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Re: Developing story: Bin Laden killed

A few staff inthread reminders have been posted in this thread already. In vain. Some of you have still not been able to accept the fact that this thread is not intended for discussion about the US or US politics. Or the POTUS as a person. Everyone of those who have participated in this thread lately are well aware of that we have a special forum for that. The USPD.

A new thread for discussing post Osama bin Laden terrorism is in the making and will appear in a few days.

In the meantime I'll close this and the staff will consider which of you deserve the forum ban Chris promised in his last inthread.

*Lock*


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