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  #21  
Old March 13th, 2011, 7:43 am
NickHeartsMat  Female.gif NickHeartsMat is offline
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Re: Male Circumcision and Bodily Autonomy

I had both of my sons circumcised. My ex husband and I had a big discussion about it, and in the end we decided on it. I was a bit nervous about the procedure (what mom wants to see her newborn in pain) but surprisingly neither of my kids even cried during the procedure. It was like nothing to them. The doctors told us how to take care of it, but honestly there was never any pain or discomfort for them (at least that I noticed, they didn't cry or squirm when I changed their diapers).

I pretty much let my ex husband take the lead on that decision, because honestly I don't care either way. I think my ex more wanted the circumcision because he a) felt that it was important for the boys and him to have parts that looked the same so that there weren't awkward questions about why their penises were different during potty training (which ended up being irrelevant anyways since we divorced before that became an issue and I potty trained them alone) and b) he was worried that if it wasn't done early and they decided in the future to get circumcised it would be extremely painful for them.

Around here, at the time of my sons birth, circumcision was pretty commonplace, and I think my ex was thinking more of social factors rather than it being medically necessary. I am not really sure where all the venom is coming from regarding this topic. I don't see it as child abuse, my kids aren't angry that they got circumcised, they aren't holding onto repressed memories of the torture it was to get the procedure. They can't remember it, and I can't imagine that in the future they are going to be ****** off that we chose to get them circumcised. I doubt that they will really care.

If in the future I have another boy, I will have another discussion about circumcision with the baby's father and come to a decision with him. But like I said, I don't care either way, it just doesn't make a whole lot of difference to me, and I think that banning it, although it wouldn't affect me personally, would have a negative impact with a lot of people who choose circumcision based on their beliefs.

Quote:
Originally Posted by NumberEight View Post
A parent who has their child circumcised when it isn't medically necessary should be arrested, charged with genital mutilation, and the child taken away.
To respond to this, no offense but that is a very extreme statement and absolutely ridiculous. A) there is no way that the government could ever go forward with this idea because of the amount of people who would be charged and the amount of kids that would flood the social service system, and B) you actually would support taking children out of loving homes because the parents chose a procedure that you don't agree with? That is a bit harsh. Actually more than a bit.


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  #22  
Old March 13th, 2011, 4:46 pm
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Re: Male Circumcision and Bodily Autonomy

NickHeartsMat, did you consult a doctor before the circumcisions? Yesterday i was typing up a post that mentioned what you did: one reason the procedure is done is because the father doesn't want to answer inquiries about why he and his kids look different in that department, which I'm sure everyone in this thread can guess what I gave to say about that (it's a poor reason and intellectually lazy).

And yes, I consider the procedure child abuse because the odds of it never taking place if the child was able to make the decision would be lower. This of course assumes that parents had no say in his decision making process. Babies have died because of the unnecessary procedure.



Last edited by NumberEight; March 13th, 2011 at 4:49 pm.
  #23  
Old March 13th, 2011, 5:41 pm
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Re: Male Circumcision and Bodily Autonomy

Male Circumcision and Bodily Autonomy
A few days ago I was reading about a proposed ban on circumcisions for infant boys in San Francisco. It's not on the ballot yet but the proposed penalty is up to 1 year in jail and a $1000 dollar fine. It is unclear as to whether or not the doctor or the parents or both would be penalized. This ban would also include ritual circumcisions in religious ceremonies, Judaism being the most prominent. Last year a ban on infant circumcisions was put on the ballot in Massachussuetts although it had no sponsers and never passed committee.

There are alot of issues all wrapped up in this debate the primary one being that of bodily autonomy so I'll begin my questions there.

1. Do you think that circumcision is a a choice that should be made only by the man when he is old enough to give his consent?
Well, if stuff like breast implants is legal, why not?

2. Does any such ban on circumcision infringe on the rights of the parents to choose for their child?
Parents can choose a lot of negative things for their child, and their opinion shouldn't be considered important enough to eventually hurt the child

3. Would a ban on religious circumcisions be considered an infringement of Freedom of Religion?
Theres a lot of things in religion that are illegal, like for example, stoning an adulteress and if it causes harm, then I dont see it as infringing on Freedom of Religion but I don't think they're quite that harmful

General questions about circumcision:

1. Circumcision has been on the decline (although to what degree is unclear) in the US. Why do you think this is?
Well, I feel like a lot of things people used to do out of tradition is on the decline, maybe people just don't think tradition is as important as it should be

2. The general concensus is that a circumcision is not medically necessary although it does provide some health benefits.
I remember it can also cause some health problems as well, and regardless, most of the pros aren't for medical reasons


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  #24  
Old March 13th, 2011, 6:04 pm
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Re: Male Circumcision and Bodily Autonomy

Quote:
Originally Posted by NumberEight View Post
NickHeartsMat, did you consult a doctor before the circumcisions? Yesterday i was typing up a post that mentioned what you did: one reason the procedure is done is because the father doesn't want to answer inquiries about why he and his kids look different in that department, which I'm sure everyone in this thread can guess what I gave to say about that (it's a poor reason and intellectually lazy).
We actually talked to two doctors plus a couple family members who are doctors. We weighed the decision carefully, but at the end of the day I left the final decision up to my ex husband. We we very well informed about it and honestly I would have objected if all the doctor's hadn't said that there is very minimal pain in that type of procedure for a baby.


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  #25  
Old March 13th, 2011, 8:29 pm
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Re: Male Circumcision and Bodily Autonomy

Quote:
Originally Posted by Voldemorts8thHorcrux View Post
1. Do you think that circumcision is a a choice that should be made only by the man when he is old enough to give his consent?
Well, if stuff like breast implants is legal, why not?
In my opinion this is only a viable comparison if breast implants for newborn girls are allowed. Unless I misunderstood your reply...


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  #26  
Old March 13th, 2011, 10:20 pm
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Re: Male Circumcision and Bodily Autonomy

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Originally Posted by Siriusandme View Post
In my opinion this is only a viable comparison if breast implants for newborn girls are allowed. Unless I misunderstood your reply...
Well, the question was asking about adult men, so I think breast implants is a viable comparison since adult women are allowed to get them.


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  #27  
Old March 14th, 2011, 2:53 am
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Re: Male Circumcision and Bodily Autonomy

Quote:
Originally Posted by Voldemorts8thHorcrux View Post
Well, the question was asking about adult men, so I think breast implants is a viable comparison since adult women are allowed to get them.
I think you misunderstood the question. It presumed that adult men can make the decision - if they are still intact by adulthood - and asked if the circumcision decision should be made ONLY by the person whose body is to be changed when he is old enough to do so. In other words, should parents be prevented from imposing this decision on their sons. I think it is also implied that acute medical need trumps the choice for children, as it would for other acute conditions, like appendicitis.


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Last edited by Dedalus Diggle; March 14th, 2011 at 3:47 am.
  #28  
Old April 28th, 2011, 1:48 am
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Re: Male Circumcision and Bodily Autonomy

1. Do you think that circumcision is a a choice that should be made only by the man when he is old enough to give his consent?

No, there are many choices in this world that the parents will make for their children because it is how they want to raise their kids. A vast amount of those choices will be made before a child has the intelligence to make the choice for themselves.

2. Does any such ban on circumcision infringe on the rights of the parents to choose for their child?

Yes

3. Would a ban on religious circumcisions be considered an infringement of Freedom of Religion?

Yes

4. If you live outside the US is circumcision legislated? Why or why not?

NA

General questions about circumcision:

1. Circumcision has been on the decline (although to what degree is unclear) in the US. Why do you think this is?

Our population has become more diverse and much more "naturalistic" over the past decade (referring to USA). Many other cultures do not typically circ their boys (many latinos I know). Also, it has become a little more socially acceptable not to circ in the US.

2. The general concensus is that a circumcision is not medically necessary although it does provide some health benefits.

This is true. As a pediatrician, I can attest to that. The American Academy of Pediatric neither recommends for nor against circumcision. Benefits are mainly cosmetic, but also include a lower risk for urinary tract infections in the first year of life. Circumcised males are also less likely to pass along HPV (the virus that can cause cervical cancer) when they become sexually active (and if they acquire the virus).

3. Opponents of circumcision say that the procedure is nothing more than genital mutilation done out vanity and force of habit. Do you agree or disagree?

Disagree. The act of genetal mutilation in africa and circumcisions are completely different. There is just no comparison. Most boys sleep through the circs I do.


  #29  
Old April 28th, 2011, 6:53 am
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Re: Male Circumcision and Bodily Autonomy

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cuthbert View Post
Disagree. The act of genetal mutilation in africa and circumcisions are completely different. There is just no comparison. Most boys sleep through the circs I do.
There is a comparison. A childs genitals are butchered without proper reason. And a lot of times without anesthesia.

Quote:
Stang, 1998, found 45% of physicians responding to a survey who circumcise used anaesthesia – most commonly a dorsal penile nerve block – for infant circumcisions. The obstetricians in the sample used anaesthesia less often (25%) than the family practitioners (56%) or pediatricians (71%).
Quote:
Glass, 1999, stated that Jewish ritual circumcision is so quick that "most mohelim do not routinely use any anaesthesia as they feel there is probably no need in the neonate."
Quote:
Lander et al. demonstrated that babies circumcised without anesthesia showed behavioral and physiological signs of pain and distress.
I just can't understand why parents would alow someone to do this to their child. With anaesthesia fine... But without anaesthesia????


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  #30  
Old April 28th, 2011, 8:15 am
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Re: Male Circumcision and Bodily Autonomy

Quote:
Originally Posted by Siriusandme View Post
There is a comparison. A childs genitals are butchered without proper reason. And a lot of times without anesthesia.
Male circumcision is also unconstitutional. As it is illegal to carry out any non-medical procedures on the genitals of minor females, minor males should have equal protection under the law.


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  #31  
Old April 28th, 2011, 9:37 am
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Re: Male Circumcision and Bodily Autonomy

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Originally Posted by Wab View Post
Male circumcision is also unconstitutional. As it is illegal to carry out any non-medical procedures on the genitals of minor females, minor males should have equal protection under the law.
Apparently it's legal in the States. Don't really know why though... If some parent did the same thing to a daughter the country would be too small.

The thing that strikes me as really "funny" here is the fact that a few years ago I found out about a thing called the shopping cart cover. It's to protect babies from all those nasty germs that live on the shopping carts. These people go to whatever length to protect those babies (hence the shopping cart cover) while at the same time they let some doctor butcher their childs genitals without anesthesia. Go figure...


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  #32  
Old April 28th, 2011, 2:58 pm
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Re: Male Circumcision and Bodily Autonomy

Quote:
Originally Posted by Siriusandme View Post
I just can't understand why parents would alow someone to do this to their child. With anaesthesia fine... But without anaesthesia????
When using quotes in a debate, it's generally a good idea to tell where the quotes come from. The last three were not from the post you started with.


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  #33  
Old April 28th, 2011, 3:03 pm
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Re: Male Circumcision and Bodily Autonomy

Quote:
Originally Posted by Alastor View Post
When using quotes in a debate, it's generally a good idea to tell where the quotes come from. The last three were not from the post you started with.
Sorry.. you're right. The quotes I used were from Wikipedia.


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  #34  
Old April 28th, 2011, 3:19 pm
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Re: Male Circumcision and Bodily Autonomy

Quote:
Originally Posted by Siriusandme View Post
Apparently it's legal in the States. Don't really know why though... If some parent did the same thing to a daughter the country would be too small.
Actually "doing the same" to a daughter would mean cutting off the hood of the clitoris, not her whole clitoris plus the labia, which is what FGM is.

That said, I'm not in favour of circumcision of minors.


  #35  
Old April 28th, 2011, 3:32 pm
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Re: Male Circumcision and Bodily Autonomy

To each his own. I personally will circumcise my sons (When I have children). Only because of a history of problems with the males in my family in this regard. Shame if I were to have my children endure the same.


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  #36  
Old April 28th, 2011, 3:48 pm
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Re: Male Circumcision and Bodily Autonomy

Quote:
Originally Posted by Yoana View Post
Actually "doing the same" to a daughter would mean cutting off the hood of the clitoris, not her whole clitoris plus the labia, which is what FGM is.

That said, I'm not in favour of circumcision of minors.
Actually.. I wasn't refering to a specific kind of FGM. Only cutting off the hood of the clitoris is also FGM. Less invasive but still FGM. And no matter how much you cut of, it's all illegal. And rightly so!


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  #37  
Old April 28th, 2011, 4:02 pm
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Re: Male Circumcision and Bodily Autonomy

There was a recent move to introduce symbolic female circumcision where a symbolic nick would be made on the vulva or hood of the clitoris and nothing would be actually removed. It would have been done under general and only on consenting adults.

This was shouted down as too shocking to contemplate. Yet plastic surgeons are allowed to perform much more drastic surgery for purely cosmetic reasons.

Anyway I fear we may be drifting a bit OT.


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  #38  
Old April 29th, 2011, 1:55 am
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Re: Male Circumcision and Bodily Autonomy

Quote:
Originally Posted by NumberEight View Post
And yes, I consider the procedure child abuse because the odds of it never taking place if the child was able to make the decision would be lower. This of course assumes that parents had no say in his decision making process. Babies have died because of the unnecessary procedure.
Your opinion and lack of sources don't amount to law.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Siriusandme View Post
There is a comparison. A childs genitals are butchered without proper reason. And a lot of times without anesthesia.
Irellevant to law.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wab View Post
Male circumcision is also unconstitutional. As it is illegal to carry out any non-medical procedures on the genitals of minor females, minor males should have equal protection under the law.
Nothing in the US Constitution that mentions what you claim. So I can only surmise that you mean some other country's Constitution.

-----------------------

As posted earlier:


Risk Assessment

In studies published in the past decade, the removal of the foreskin provided a 50% reduction in HIV transmission, a threefold reduction in human papillomavirus (HPV) infections in female partners of circumcised men (HPV can cause cervical cancer), and lower rates of syphilis and chlamydia, which causes sterility and is the main sexually transmitted disease among teenagers. Circumcised infants were also roughly 10 times less likely to suffer urinary tract infections and the high fevers associated with them. And circumcision virtually eliminates serious penile cancers, which invade about 1 in 100,000 uncircumcised men.

The evidence from Africa of circumcision’s potential role in AIDS prevention led the New York City Health Department in April to begin considering outreach programs to promote circumcision among gay adult men and drug addicts.

Some foes of circumcision claim that it diminishes sexual pleasure. That’s impossible to disprove, since a clipped boy will never know what it would have felt like to have a foreskin. But it seems bogus. Are two-thirds of us missing the joy of sex? I think not. Surveys of men circumcised as adults found no difference in their sex lives.

Schoen and others, such as Harvard medical anthropologist Daniel Halperin, PhD, say the evidence that circumcision prevents HIV transmission has been solid since the late 1980s.
But the medical community has been skeptical until recently, and the most convincing studies emerged after the AAP statement.

Early this year, three trials in which Kenyan and Ugandan men were randomly selected to receive circumcision were halted when it became clear that circumcision helped prevent transmission of HIV. Men who got it were about half as likely to get infected. “A 50% reduction is about the same as some vaccines,” says Schoen. Final vindication came in March of this year when the United Nations World Health Organization announced that male circumcision should be added to the list of interventions that can help prevent the disease.
It appears that circumcision helps fight AIDS because the foreskin is particularly susceptible to attack by HIV. It often develops cracks or tears that can be infected by viruses. And diseases such as syphilis and chancroid, a bacterial infection more common in uncircumcised men, can provide a gateway for HIV.



I thought child abuse was a banned subject...


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  #39  
Old April 29th, 2011, 2:09 am
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Re: Male Circumcision and Bodily Autonomy

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Originally Posted by Midnightsfire View Post
Irellevant to law.
Butchering genitals is irrelevant to law. Interesting.

Quote:
Nothing in the US Constitution that mentions what you claim. So I can only surmise that you mean some other country's Constitution.
If read carefully I said nothing about the Constitution relating directly to the practices of mutilating the genitals of children. I said that there was a blanket ban on unnecessary non-medical procedures on the genitals of young girls. Therefore under the 14th amndment boys should be equally protected as girls.

Unless you're being deliberately obtuse.


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  #40  
Old April 29th, 2011, 2:20 am
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Re: Male Circumcision and Bodily Autonomy

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Originally Posted by Wab View Post
Butchering genitals is irrelevant to law. Interesting.
Only how you desire to define circumcision is.
A doctor and a lawyer will tell you differently.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wab View Post
If read carefully I said nothing about the Constitution relating directly to the practices of mutilating the genitals of children. I said that there was a blanket ban on unnecessary non-medical procedures on the genitals of young girls. Therefore under the 14th amndment boys should be equally protected as girls.
Your exact words; Male circumcision is also unconstitutional.

Thus an invalid claim.


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