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  #81  
Old September 7th, 2010, 3:32 pm
Midnightsfire  Undisclosed.gif Midnightsfire is offline
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Re: Deportation of Roma from France

Kinda hard to convince the natives when the non-natives are whizzing in your drinking water.


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  #82  
Old September 7th, 2010, 3:51 pm
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Re: Deportation of Roma from France

Indeed. I never said it's an easy road. But that's the part where I'm 'romantic' because I believe some natives are actually smart enough to detect the cause and effect. Call me simple, but from my perspective it's the same matter as in our relation with the Third World, with quite every poor part of societies and - also - with any groups of nomads: if we weren't rich, they weren't poor. Imo there is some more responsibility than just, maybe, develop or not develop a moral need to help these peoples out.

I also just don't think, now hopeful delusion aside, that deportation is helpful for anyone. In fact I believe we've already seen over the last 40-50 years that it didn't solve mentioned problems.
Roma are still there. They still get deported. They still come back. Imo it's time to try something new. Where people already do this, it imo works - in terms that Roma don't take only anymore but also contribute.


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  #83  
Old September 7th, 2010, 4:08 pm
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Re: Deportation of Roma from France

You are not seeing this from a neighbor point of view.

When someone or someone's child get's sick from the poisons thrown in by an illegal immigrant, the fantasy will finally be lifted.
And no one will care about cause/effect beyond the detrimental effects caused by illegal immigrants. All everyone will want is the problem to go away.


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  #84  
Old September 7th, 2010, 5:34 pm
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Re: Deportation of Roma from France

Actually that's even more reason for me to see and understand the cause / effect thingy as important. Where should people go? (As a side effect I also think it's about time to not put all Roma in the same cupboard of being generally dangerous, but that's a different matter - no problem to think this system through if they were).

So, I indeed don't live close to a Roma settlement but I do live close to other social problem zones. My approach in life just isn't 'to make the problem go away', for particular not if the 'problem' is a human being. I see that we disagree there and that's fully OK - I just don't think I'd act any different if there would be a hut in my garden, because I know how I met other problems close to me. Usually I'm able to see the full picture rather than what annoys me only.


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  #85  
Old September 7th, 2010, 6:05 pm
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Re: Deportation of Roma from France

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Originally Posted by Midnightsfire View Post
You are not seeing this from a neighbor point of view.
It's ironic you should talk about neighbours because from their perspective, France is kicking the Roma out only to increase in number in other western European countries. All deportation is doing is pushing the problem away, not addressing it head on, which is only the illusion of what Sarkozy is doing. It's a political stunt, exploiting prejudices against Roma. How awesome is that!


  #86  
Old September 8th, 2010, 12:22 am
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Re: Deportation of Roma from France

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Originally Posted by Rastaban43 View Post
It's ironic you should talk about neighbours because from their perspective, France is kicking the Roma out only to increase in number in other western European countries.
What Roma could justify illegal immigation, entering a country without reason (Jobs? What jobs?), without knowing the language, destructive behavior...???

Who here could possibly justify any of that? Claiming that there are deeper causes isn't accomplishing anything. Because what needs doing, needs doing now. Not years later. They need to return to their native country and learn to be productive there. And they most certainly need to learn about the country they want to immigrate to before leaving their native one.

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Originally Posted by Rastaban43 View Post
All deportation is doing is pushing the problem away, not addressing it head on, which is only the illusion of what Sarkozy is doing. It's a political stunt, exploiting prejudices against Roma. How awesome is that!
Stunt or not, if the French people have as their option, Sarkozy or "The More Conservative choice" I wonder which they will pick. After all, a more right-wing leader might decide harsher measures are needed.


Funny thing...normally I tend to have a romantic image of the Roma...but their behavior in other countries is ruining that image. Fantasy crashes against the bedrock of reality once again.
*sigh*


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  #87  
Old September 8th, 2010, 3:08 am
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Re: Deportation of Roma from France

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Originally Posted by Alastor View Post
It's not about Europe getting tired of considering it their problem, it's about getting tired of it being their problem. France is the place where it became known to the rest of the world and they may for all I know have these Roma in greater numbers than any other country, but France is not alone there.
I think the appearance of accepting responsibility for them (or not accepting it) is what this is all about. Note that I said Europe as a whole on purpose. Shifting them from one country to another does nothing to change the situation at all if you look at it from a continental perspective. Point A in Europe to Point B in Europe are both points in Europe. But the leadership of a particular country, like France, might just feel that whatever the implied costs of having them around at all might be, France will certainly not wish to look welcoming to them, nor does it want to be liable for a greater share of the aforementioned costs.

So I still say it is not about their being a problem, or else tossing them out with a handshake and a few hundred Euros would hardly be the solution a sane person would suggest. What a deportation means is first the burden will actually be gone (neatly transferred to someone else) and the appearance of being tough on them wins approval of the masses and might just discourage the dearly deported from coming back. But I don't see how anyone could argue that this does anything whatsoever to alleviate the problems these populations cause... France has just decided to turn it into someone else's. Up to them.



Last edited by canismajoris; September 8th, 2010 at 3:11 am.
  #88  
Old September 8th, 2010, 6:10 am
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Re: Deportation of Roma from France

I have not denied France's right to kick them out. I wouldn't mind much if my own country did so too as I don't think begging and thieving in a foreign country constitutes a good life. Especially not if you are a victim of trafficking. But discussing this as if it were only about one or another country sending them away looks to me like sweeping the bigger problem under the rug.
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Originally Posted by Midnightsfire View Post
They need to return to their native country and learn to be productive there.
I certainly wouldn't mind if they did. But how? I think Yoana explained quite well back in post #61 why this is easier said than done. We are talking about an ethnic group which has been shunned all over Europe ever since they first entered said subcontinent and which has generally been unable to find paid work.


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Old September 8th, 2010, 6:29 am
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Re: Deportation of Roma from France

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Originally Posted by Rastaban43 View Post
My point was the word Francophobia was floating around, and I thought that was an inaccurate way to describe a few temporary critics of France's policy. I know a few people (not in this thread) who are actually Francophobic (my parents included), but I can assure you I am not one of them. So when some half of France agrees with me, I'll be quick to point that out.
Since I was the one who first mentioned francophobia, allow me to clarify what I meant. I wasn't targeting you or anyone in particular, I was pointing out that when several countries do the same thing, be it deporting Roma or opposing the Iraq War, and that group of countries includes France, it's only France that gets bashed, for some reason. I gave examples regarding the Iraq war, how it wasn't Mexican, Canadian, German, Russian or Belgian products that were boycotted, but French products, and that it was French-bashing jokes that were flooding the Internet.

Here too, France is not the only country to deport its Roma, and yet this thread is called "Deportation of Roma from France", not from Denmark or Finland or Italy... Somehow France is always singled out as the villain, even if other countries do exactly the same thing. Why?

Quote:
See, that's the big problem I am having with this whole deportation mess. It's motivated by xenophobia as much as any other concern. If xenophobia is a motivation for some action, we should perhaps take a step back and ask if that's the right thing to do.
Having been born in France of Vietnamese parents, and having lived there a sizable part of my life, without ever taking on French citizenship (I'm a US citizen now), I can testify that the French are not xenophobic.

Fleur has pointed out that "native" French Roma communities are thriving. So this deportation thing is neither racist nor xenophobic, it's a matter of preserving security, and of trying to get rid of, well, someone else in here said it, a bunch of unproductive (for the national economy) and trouble-making bunch, so the country can tackle its numerous other problems.


  #90  
Old September 8th, 2010, 9:32 am
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Re: Deportation of Roma from France

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Originally Posted by Muggle_Magic View Post
Fleur has pointed out that "native" French Roma communities are thriving. So this deportation thing is neither racist nor xenophobic, it's a matter of preserving security, and of trying to get rid of, well, someone else in here said it, a bunch of unproductive (for the national economy) and trouble-making bunch, so the country can tackle its numerous other problems.
I agree with this. And I still say it's not fair to say it's everyones fault but not the Roma's. They have at least some responsibility for their own problems. It seems to easy for me to blame this on half of Europe and to say the Roma are not accountable for any of it. They know that what they do is illegal. They could choose otherwise.... And don't say it's not possible. It's always possible, it may be really hard, but there is always a way.


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  #91  
Old September 8th, 2010, 9:57 am
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Re: Deportation of Roma from France

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Originally Posted by Siriusandme View Post
I agree with this. And I still say it's not fair to say it's everyones fault but not the Roma's. They have at least some responsibility for their own problems. It seems to easy for me to blame this on half of Europe and to say the Roma are not accountable for any of it. They know that what they do is illegal. They could choose otherwise.... And don't say it's not possible. It's always possible, it may be really hard, but there is always a way.
That's so easy to say when you're socially privileged. These people have been victims of racism with consequences of various degrees of cruelty (from genocide and torture to discrimination on the job market) for centuries, and still are. Obviously they're not on the same starting level as other Europeans. Saying that they just have to suck it up and deal with their situations - in a large way created by the racism against them on the part of other Europeans - ignores the reality of their situation, in my opinion.


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Old September 8th, 2010, 10:56 am
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Re: Deportation of Roma from France

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Originally Posted by Yoana View Post
That's so easy to say when you're socially privileged. These people have been victims of racism with consequences of various degrees of cruelty (from genocide and torture to discrimination on the job market) for centuries, and still are. Obviously they're not on the same starting level as other Europeans. Saying that they just have to suck it up and deal with their situations - in a large way created by the racism against them on the part of other Europeans - ignores the reality of their situation, in my opinion.
I am well aware of how priviliged I am and I know how easy it is for me to say this. But the Roma are not the only ones who are or have been victims of racism. And just like the Roma these people had to start with nothing and had to fight their way up. Look at the black people in the US (or anywhere else for that matter), women (of any color), Native Americans, etc. The difference is, these people all wanted to succeed. And, imo, that is what makes the difference.


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  #93  
Old September 8th, 2010, 11:39 am
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Re: Deportation of Roma from France

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Originally Posted by Siriusandme View Post
Look at the black people in the US (or anywhere else for that matter), women (of any color), Native Americans, etc. The difference is, these people all wanted to succeed. And, imo, that is what makes the difference.
Wow, so any minority group that doesn't want to fight for their own rights doesn't deserve them?

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Originally Posted by Midnightsfire View Post
And they most certainly need to learn about the country they want to immigrate to before leaving their native one.
I don't disagree with that, but that's also assuming none of them have tried to integrate. There are plenty of them who have lived there for 10 plus years and do speak French, but they're being asked to leave the same as everyone else. Everyone keeps saying integrate or leave, but we keep ignoring the fact that no one in France has any desire for them to integrate, so they get pushed into slums and camps where they have no choice but to whiz in your drinking water.

The simple truth is deportation isn't even fixing any problem in the short term, because the same people could and probably will simply move back or increase Roma populations in other Western European countries. It's just wasting money and it's a veiled excuse to get rid of a minority people dislike.

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Originally Posted by Muggle_Magic View Post
Here too, France is not the only country to deport its Roma, and yet this thread is called "Deportation of Roma from France", not from Denmark or Finland or Italy... Somehow France is always singled out as the villain, even if other countries do exactly the same thing. Why?
As I said before, like the U.S., France is pretty high profile and it sets itself up on a pedestal as a moral authority, so naturally, when the French government does something that is morally grey, it's going to face much more criticism than the countries that are a little more quiet.

While we may be discussing France in this thread, rest assured, the discussion applies to Belgium, Finland and any other country that has deported its Roma population without much regard to the short-term or long-term effects on Roma and the whole of Europe.

Quote:
Having been born in France of Vietnamese parents, and having lived there a sizable part of my life, without ever taking on French citizenship (I'm a US citizen now), I can testify that the French are not xenophobic.
Ah, yes, the ever-powerful trump card. Sorry, I'll resist the urge to disagree with you because my experience in France is much more limited and I can only make judgments based on the stuff France is actually doing, not on their motives.



Last edited by Rastaban43; September 8th, 2010 at 12:02 pm.
  #94  
Old September 8th, 2010, 12:04 pm
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Re: Deportation of Roma from France

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Originally Posted by Rastaban43 View Post
Wow, so any minority group that doesn't want to fight for their own rights doesn't deserve them?
What rights are you talking about?

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Originally Posted by Rastaban43 View Post
Everyone keeps saying integrate or leave, but we keep ignoring the fact that no one in France has any desire for them to integrate, so they get pushed into slums and camps where they have no choice but to whiz in your drinking water.
I think that people are put off by their way of living. But that is their fault, when they want to be accepted then maybe adapting the others way of living.

Then why should they integrate everyone who comes to their country. Where does it say that they have to?


  #95  
Old September 8th, 2010, 4:37 pm
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Re: Deportation of Roma from France

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Originally Posted by Rastaban43 View Post
Wow, so any minority group that doesn't want to fight for their own rights doesn't deserve them?
Succintly put. And being a US citizen I agree with it. (Civil Rights era anyone?)
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Originally Posted by Rastaban43 View Post
I don't disagree with that, but that's also assuming none of them have tried to integrate.
An assumption that is fair to make considering that there are Roma that have become French citizens. And really, how am I to expect that an attempt was made if language is still a barrier?

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Originally Posted by Rastaban43 View Post
There are plenty of them who have lived there for 10 plus years and do speak French, but they're being asked to leave the same as everyone else. Everyone keeps saying integrate or leave, but we keep ignoring the fact that no one in France has any desire for them to integrate, so they get pushed into slums and camps where they have no choice but to whiz in your drinking water.
And this is why almost 80% of the French population approves of getting rid of them.
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Originally Posted by Rastaban43 View Post
The simple truth is deportation isn't even fixing any problem in the short term, because the same people could and probably will simply move back or increase Roma populations in other Western European countries. It's just wasting money and it's a veiled excuse to get rid of a minority people dislike.
And this puzzles me; If you are despised in a foreign country why on earth would you return to it?

Such deportations have been occurring in German, Italy, and Denmark

France is certainly not the only western European country where the Roma community is being stigmatised and pushed back.
Two years ago, Italy had taken similar steps after several crimes were allegedly committed by Roma and even allowed for vigilante patrols to be established in the local communities.
And Germany is set to deport 12,000 Roma to Kosovo in the coming years, writes Der Freitag, in a deal that Pristina accepted "under pressure" last April. The paper calls it a "disgrace for Germany", especially since the majority of the nearly 6,000 children and adolescents affected have grown up in Germany, speak neither Serbian nor Albanian and will probably be unable to continue their studies.
In Denmark, the city of Copenhagen earlier this month asked for government assistance, including the use of force, in order to expel the 200 to 400 Roma who live there. "The situation is untenable," the mayor of the Danish capital said, arguing that the number of burglaries has risen in the neighbourhoods where they have taken up residence.


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  #96  
Old September 8th, 2010, 10:05 pm
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Re: Deportation of Roma from France

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Originally Posted by Midnightsfire View Post
And this puzzles me; If you are despised in a foreign country why on earth would you return to it?
If you're despised everywhere, I imagine it's all the same to you.


  #97  
Old September 8th, 2010, 10:14 pm
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Re: Deportation of Roma from France

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Originally Posted by Alastor View Post
But discussing this as if it were only about one or another country sending them away looks to me like sweeping the bigger problem under the rug.
Well that's in essence what I'm saying. Who is attempting to sweep this under the rug more pointedly than the French government? I have little interest in judging the merits of whatever their motives might be, as the inevitability of this action would make them irrelevant. But, I hope you'll agree, France and everyone else must be aware that shifting populations from one country to another is not a solution to the problem they feel so strongly that they have. In other words, France seems to be pandering to the domestic perceptions while ignoring the broader problem. Whatever alternatives there might be and that might have been tried in the past, I can't escape the conclusion that through this deportation hands are being washed of the whole affair in the hope that it will be dealt with elsewhere and on someone else's dime.


  #98  
Old September 8th, 2010, 10:35 pm
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Re: Deportation of Roma from France

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Originally Posted by Rastaban43 View Post
Everyone keeps saying integrate or leave, but we keep ignoring the fact that no one in France has any desire for them to integrate, so they get pushed into slums and camps where they have no choice but to whiz in your drinking water.
They are not "pushed into slums and camps". They choose to live there and send any money they make, legally or not, back to their home communities. They could pretty well use that money to rent a decent dwelling. Look at the teens who work the ATMs. If they take the maximum (500 €) from each victim, get 10 victims each per day, multiply that by the number of groups of teens who do that, add the purse-snatching, pick-pocketing, burglarizing... Each family would make enough to afford the three-months-rent payment easily. If they wanted to.

"No choice but to whiz in your drinking water"? Please!!! In France there are homeless people other than Roma, I haven't heard yet of any who deliberately foul the water and pollute the environment like that.

Quote:
Ah, yes, the ever-powerful trump card. Sorry, I'll resist the urge to disagree with you because my experience in France is much more limited and I can only make judgments based on the stuff France is actually doing, not on their motives.
You did say it was xenophobic, I'm just saying it's not.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tenshi View Post
I think that people are put off by their way of living. But that is their fault, when they want to be accepted then maybe adapting the others way of living.

Then why should they integrate everyone who comes to their country. Where does it say that they have to?


Quote:
Originally Posted by Midnightsfire View Post
Succintly put. And being a US citizen I agree with it. (Civil Rights era anyone?)
Civil rights in the US was for US citizens who were not criminals. We're not talking about the same thing here.

You're ignoring the fact that the native French Roma enjoy all the same civil and other rights as any other French citizen.

Quote:
An assumption that is fair to make considering that there are Roma that have become French citizens.
Those are not being deported. One cannot be deported from one's own country, unless one loses citizenship in that country.

Quote:
And this puzzles me; If you are despised in a foreign country why on earth would you return to it?
Because you can make good money there.

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Originally Posted by Yoana View Post
If you're despised everywhere, I imagine it's all the same to you.
So, the choice is simple. Go to the country where you can make the most money. It's easier to disregard the contempt when you get more loot out of one place instead of the other, even if 'the other' is your home country.


  #99  
Old September 9th, 2010, 4:50 am
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Re: Deportation of Roma from France

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Originally Posted by Muggle_Magic View Post
Civil rights in the US was for US citizens who were not criminals. We're not talking about the same thing here.
In order to preserve the analogy, not that I specifically agree with it, I will just mention that our courts have often ruled that all of our basic rights and protections are extended to everyone within our borders, not just legal citizens. This follows from the wording of the 14th amendment to our constitution, which incidentally was the cornerstone of Brown v. Board of Education, which ended segregation in schools in 1954.


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Old September 9th, 2010, 6:27 am
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Re: Deportation of Roma from France

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Originally Posted by canismajoris View Post
But, I hope you'll agree, France and everyone else must be aware that shifting populations from one country to another is not a solution to the problem they feel so strongly that they have.
I do


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