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Deportation of Roma from France



 
 
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  #61  
Old August 31st, 2010, 8:01 am
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Re: Deportation of Roma from France

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Originally Posted by Alastor View Post
That's right. It isn't France's fault. I do agree that the problem should be solved at the European-as-a-whole level as the home countries are unable to do it. My comment was intended as an illustration of the fact that it is an all European problem.
I think the primary responsibility should be with us - the native countries of those Roma people. They are Bulgarian and Romanian citizens and I think we are obliged to offer them every help available from our states to its citizens - and Bulgaria at least is quite socialist (in the good sense these days) - there's a lot the country could theoretically do for its poor, but in practice, hardly anything is done at all. An additional, and very significant, hindrance is the staunch opposition from ethnic Bulgarians. Racism against the Roma is very widespread here - I'm not afraid to admit it, though it does make me ashamed. And as with other widely accepted public attitudes, it's shared on official levels, too, which is where the problem should be tackled.


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  #62  
Old August 31st, 2010, 12:38 pm
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Re: Deportation of Roma from France

I agree with what many said that it is a European-as-a-whole-problem, for particular since Roma don't have one and only home country, which could be supported from all other countries. That's what I also meant when I said that France current measures don't help, if then another country has to take care for the people. It wasn't my intention to poke on France, I simply believe the measures now taken aren't a long-term solution.

It just stunnes me that Roma still, after all these decades of often already successful integration politics in Europe for many ethnic [sic!] groups still meet so much xenophobia and misunderstanding. A town in Northern Germany (Hamburg) showed that it is indeed possible to do an integration politics, however the way is long and tough. In Hamburg are currently the first Roma girls age of 14 and 15 who actually were left in school long enough to pass their exams. The initiators of the project which supports Roma integration in Hamburg say the most effective way to reach this was to actually talk to the families.

Imo that's t he basic rule for every human interaction, for particular when cultural differences meet. Don't create a 'they're out, we're in', but talk to the people to understand them and make them understand what the State they're living in actually expects.

That's only one example, though. Quite close to mentioned town Hamburg the members of a Roma settlement will be send back to Kosovo these days. As said, it isn't only France who sticks to deportation, but I believe the massive media attention they get now isn't at all unwanted.


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  #63  
Old August 31st, 2010, 3:39 pm
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Re: Deportation of Roma from France

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Originally Posted by Muggle_Magic View Post
One possible answer is Francophobia, aka bashing the French.
It's hardly Francophobia, doesn't matter which country did this, they'd get the same reaction. The result's France bashing though. Partly caused by missinformation about the legal situation I'd say.


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Old August 31st, 2010, 3:48 pm
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Re: Deportation of Roma from France

I agree it's partly the misinformation about the legal situation, but I know in my case - while I can accept France' decision - I simply disagree with it. No matter that their action is legal (there was never a doubt about that one), it's still not the solution from which I think anyone benefits.


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  #65  
Old September 5th, 2010, 9:26 pm
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Re: Deportation of Roma from France

There was something in the NY Times yesterday about Italy preparing to expel its Roma. And, according to Rastaban, there's a lot more racism against Roma in Italy than there is in France. We'll have to see how that turns out.

Right now, there's a lot of protests in France against the deportation of Roma, mainly from the Socialists and other leftist parties. According to a poll, 48% of the population support the expulsion (mostly I guess those who've been victims of Roma criminality, but also some realists who see that France can't afford to support such a large group of people who aren't contributing to the economy but are draining it, to the expense of the taxpayer), a few percent are undecided, the rest are calling Sarkozy a racist and demonstrating against the decision. It's quite a mess.


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Old September 5th, 2010, 10:20 pm
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Re: Deportation of Roma from France

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Originally Posted by Muggle_Magic View Post
Right now, there's a lot of protests in France against the deportation of Roma, mainly from the Socialists and other leftist parties. According to a poll, 48% of the population support the expulsion (mostly I guess those who've been victims of Roma criminality, but also some realists who see that France can't afford to support such a large group of people who aren't contributing to the economy but are draining it, to the expense of the taxpayer), a few percent are undecided, the rest are calling Sarkozy a racist and demonstrating against the decision. It's quite a mess.
I don't know, this got me thinking. I would be utterly shocked to learn that most of 48% of respondents had actually been a victim of "Roma criminality". It seems like for that to be true, given the number Roma people and the number of French citizens, the Roma would have to commit about 90% of all crime in France.

So, unfortunately the only sources I can even begin to find note that there are very few actual crime statistics available to be verified. They all simply say that the French government has linked the Roma with crime rates. I personally can't find any stats (searching in English) either, so I don't think I'd be comfortable assuming that quite such a huge portion of French citizens are indeed direct victims of any kind. If that were the case I'd expect a much larger percentage of the public to favor expulsion.


  #67  
Old September 6th, 2010, 3:20 am
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Re: Deportation of Roma from France

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Originally Posted by Muggle_Magic View Post
According to a poll, 48% of the population support the expulsion (mostly I guess those who've been victims of Roma criminality, but also some realists who see that France can't afford to support such a large group of people who aren't contributing to the economy but are draining it, to the expense of the taxpayer), a few percent are undecided, the rest are calling Sarkozy a racist and demonstrating against the decision. It's quite a mess.
So almost half of France is calling itself racist? Sounds like a classic case of Francophobia to me.

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Originally Posted by canismajoris View Post
I don't know, this got me thinking. I would be utterly shocked to learn that most of 48% of respondents had actually been a victim of "Roma criminality". It seems like for that to be true, given the number Roma people and the number of French citizens, the Roma would have to commit about 90% of all crime in France.
I would venture to guess Roma criminals are also not violent criminals. Not sure how that would factor into the statistics, but there are just as many foreign victims (mainly tourists) of petty thievery as French victims.



Last edited by Rastaban43; September 6th, 2010 at 9:56 am.
  #68  
Old September 6th, 2010, 9:52 am
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Re: Deportation of Roma from France

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Originally Posted by Rastaban43 View Post
I would venture to guess Roma criminals are also not violent criminals. Not sure how that would factor into the statistics, but there are just as many foreign victims (mainly tourists) of petty thievery than French victims.
What does the kind of crime matter? Even if it's just pickpocketing or simply staying more than three months. It's breaking the law.

When they want to stay in a country then they should play by the rules. That means no illegal settlements, no overstaying when they are not allowed to, no money making with illegal activities. The first two being the important ones.



Last edited by Tenshi; September 6th, 2010 at 10:07 am.
  #69  
Old September 6th, 2010, 10:27 am
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Re: Deportation of Roma from France

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Originally Posted by Tenshi View Post
What does the kind of crime matter? Even if it's just pickpocketing or simply staying more than three months. It's breaking the law.
I was pointing it out because there was the assertion some half of everyone in France could possibly have been a victim of "Roma criminality." There's more crime in France than petty theft. That's not to mention one of the main rationale for the deportation was because Sarkozy linked high crime rates with Roma, throwing in child prostitution rings for the fun of it, apparently. There may not be a lot of publicly released statistics about crimes committed by Roma and what percentage that is of total crime, but I can't imagine they are as big a problem as Sarkozy is making them out to be. Child prostitution? Yeah, it's bad, but Roma aren't the ones creating that particular problem. We should just be honest about why we want to deport Roma instead of sugar coating it with facts out of thin air.

France is fed up, right? Well, it sounds like only half of France is fed up and the other half is fed up with Sarkozy.


  #70  
Old September 6th, 2010, 12:25 pm
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Re: Deportation of Roma from France

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Originally Posted by Tenshi View Post
When they want to stay in a country then they should play by the rules. That means no illegal settlements, no overstaying when they are not allowed to, no money making with illegal activities. The first two being the important ones.
That's true, but how do you achieve to avoid illegal settlements when people simply need to survive? I don't think many of us who would act any different, if being in their situation.

For me it's just too easy to claim that any law breaker needs to leave the country, imo in some cases we need to check on why people do this, too, to avoid further problems as also support a human friendly environment within Europe.
Of course they break they law - they try to survive. They try to do that in a, imo, rather spoiled surrounding which inhabitans can't even imagine how the living conditions of Roma are. We're no free settlers anymore, in our society there's imo no other way than that the State's help out. That's not the fault of the Roma, who do what they always did over the last centuries.

So I just don't think that deportation helps either the single State nor Europe, no matter of which opinion one is. They will come back to the richer countries, because they need to survive and because they can't take care for their own as free settlers anymore in our time.

I'm not surprised that Roma don't act like perfect new citizens when they enter a State though, how could they have learned how this works? But I'm actually quite shocked that we still, in 2010, haven't learned how to deal with such situations.

I fully understand that a wealthy State can't just invite every homeless folk "which only takes" - otherwise the wealth would soonish be history. But right now I believe that, on the long run, the deportation costs rather more money than integration measures do. Sure, integration is way more difficult and don't have a guarantee on success, but some of them do exist already and show that integration is possible.
Imo Roma will still "only take" in 50 years if we don't finally give them the opportunity to contribute. I'm very aware that this needs convincing-work also at the Roma part, but mentioned integration programmes also show that Roma who run through them indeed contribute to the according State now.

I think that's a better approach for every one involved.
Deportation on the other side is far easier, and additionally more convincing to the xenophobe part of the voters. (Not talking about France only here btw, this counts for every country since every deports Roma).


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  #71  
Old September 6th, 2010, 3:44 pm
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Re: Deportation of Roma from France

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Originally Posted by gertiekeddle View Post
That's true, but how do you achieve to avoid illegal settlements when people simply need to survive? I don't think many of us who would act any different, if being in their situation.
By denying them entry unless they already have a legitimate job offer and a place to stay.

You have an over-romatic notion of how a nation is governed and how economies work.

Admittedly, if this is a strategy for Sarkozy, I don't know if it will be a winning one. (Cagey dude though...)

From here

In many parts of France the Roma are seen as a nuisance, involved in petty crime and living in messy camps. Expelling them has proved popular with many voters.
"Anyone who thinks they should stay can have them living nearby as we have for the last four years," said one woman whose home was near an illegal Roma camp at Corbeil in Paris's southern suburbs. "They throw everything into the river, bottles, vehicle oil, tyres, excrement. They cut down trees, they tap into the water supplies and leave it running everywhere... and it's us who pay."

But then the real problem is money...

On Tuesday a landmark pension reform bill goes to the lower house, proposing to raise the retirement age from 60 to 62 in 2018, as part of an attempt to get costs under control, in a system which threatens to run up annual deficits of 100 billion euros by 2050.


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  #72  
Old September 6th, 2010, 4:35 pm
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Re: Deportation of Roma from France

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But then the real problem is money...
The money argument is the one they might should be using. After all, I don't think many people would argue money is tight right now, and it usually is. It's a lot easier to cut something from the budget than to add something, the real question is how much are illegal Roma costing the French taxpayer and what can be done to both cut the cost for the French while arriving at a genuinely helpful solution for the Roma.

The thought of encouraging them to get jobs comes to mind, but then many Roma run into the problem that no one will hire them, for various reasons including the fact that new immigrants probably don't speak French. But let's not be naive -- mostly it's because they're Roma.

Maybe I've got romantic ideas about how governments should run myself, but it seems perhaps the government could somehow channel all the money they're spending on deportation and help those who wish to find a job actually find one. Then the ones who continue to commit crimes or don't find a job after three months can be given a train ticket "home." You have to admit though, it's hard to kick someone out of your country, illegal or not, when they've been living there the past decade. I didn't think France was in the habit of following the U.S.'s example.


  #73  
Old September 6th, 2010, 8:43 pm
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Re: Deportation of Roma from France

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Originally Posted by Midnightsfire View Post
You have an over-romatic notion of how a nation is governed and how economies work.

In many parts of France the Roma are seen as a nuisance, involved in petty crime and living in messy camps. Expelling them has proved popular with many voters.
"Anyone who thinks they should stay can have them living nearby as we have for the last four years," said one woman whose home was near an illegal Roma camp at Corbeil in Paris's southern suburbs. "They throw everything into the river, bottles, vehicle oil, tyres, excrement. They cut down trees, they tap into the water supplies and leave it running everywhere... and it's us who pay."

But then the real problem is money...
It's some time ago, but politics have been my minor back at uni so I believe I've a rough idea of how States run. I think I just have a different opinion, incl. a different approach on what actually is possible (and helpful) in societies. I've seen a lot and many things stunned me positively. My idea would be to not keep people in the described situation (italics), but change it. One option of course is the deportation. Just deporting imo isn't the solution since the problem comes back. Literally.

I've already said I'd share a lot to help giving this people a chance, so in this I'm certainly "romantic". I'd call it social, but it doesn't bother me if people think that's only an opinion fit for flower power attitudes (not saying you did), so I don't call about the cupboard I'm in either. Just in this case I believe even someone with a different position might see that the deportation is a short-term solution only - unless there are other reasons than financial concern for the State though. There's a long history to Roma in Europe and it stuns me that we still didn't achieve to solve the problems. Imo we didn't because we barely tried. I don't think we can ignore it. Not in our times anyway.

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Originally Posted by Rastaban43 View Post
Maybe I've got romantic ideas about how governments should run myself, but it seems perhaps the government could somehow channel all the money they're spending on deportation and help those who wish to find a job actually find one. Then the ones who continue to commit crimes or don't find a job after three months can be given a train ticket "home."
That's my opinion too. There are integration programmes running already (mostly for Roma kids who get the possibility to visit school up to nine or ten years) and they do work.

I think what many people forget when they here 'the Roma have lived here longer than the three allowed months' is that these people often have lived there for decades already. I wouldn't support to deport them because I can't believe they would stay away. Within Schengen it's impossible to control anyway.


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  #74  
Old September 6th, 2010, 10:34 pm
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Re: Deportation of Roma from France

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I think the primary responsibility should be with us - the native countries of those Roma people. They are Bulgarian and Romanian citizens and I think we are obliged to offer them every help available from our states to its citizens - and Bulgaria at least is quite socialist (in the good sense these days) - there's a lot the country could theoretically do for its poor, but in practice, hardly anything is done at all. An additional, and very significant, hindrance is the staunch opposition from ethnic Bulgarians. Racism against the Roma is very widespread here - I'm not afraid to admit it, though it does make me ashamed. And as with other widely accepted public attitudes, it's shared on official levels, too, which is where the problem should be tackled.
Great post Yoana, I totally agree with you.

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Originally Posted by Rastaban43 View Post
So almost half of France is calling itself racist? Sounds like a classic case of Francophobia to me.
No, they're calling the Sarkozy administration racist, which is quite different. Consider the source. Mostly those people are those who'd like to take his place in the Elysée Palace and their supporters.

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I would venture to guess Roma criminals are also not violent criminals. Not sure how that would factor into the statistics, but there are just as many foreign victims (mainly tourists) of petty thievery as French victims.
Quite accurate. Especially in Paris and other big tourist attraction places, foreigners are victims as much as French citizens.

Though I must say, in my purely personal experience, in the little chat group I'm part of - an informal group who correspond through e-mail - 3 out of 5 of our European (French and Belgian) members have had to deal with "Roma criminality", mostly petty theft, purse-snatching, things like that. It may not be a very representative sample, but still, the proportion is high.

Also, in my little Southern town on the Riviera, one winter we had a group of Roma settle close to our apartment building complex. This is like a gated community, but with a big flaw: you have to be a resident or invited guest or a service company to drive in, but anyone can walk in, through the main gate or through the surrounding woods and gardens - the fences are very easily crossed. Well, that winter, we found the fence along our olive orchard breached in several places. The Roma were using the orchard as an outdoor toilet, and the number of burglaries in the complex sky-rocketed. We had to petition the town to have the Roma camp move away, and that took some doing.

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Originally Posted by Rastaban43 View Post
France is fed up, right? Well, it sounds like only half of France is fed up and the other half is fed up with Sarkozy.
Sarkozy is not very popular right now, but he's still the one who's tackling the problem the best. Based on their arguments and ideas, I'd hate to see what the Socialists would do if they were in power. But this is OT, I won't pursue it.

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Originally Posted by gertiekeddle View Post
I think what many people forget when they here 'the Roma have lived here longer than the three allowed months' is that these people often have lived there for decades already. I wouldn't support to deport them because I can't believe they would stay away. Within Schengen it's impossible to control anyway.
The Roma who have lived in France for decades, even centuries, are well-integrated and hold honest jobs.

You're right, though, deport some of those who are in an illegal situation, they come right back - or go to another rich Western country. As you say, with Schengen it's impossible to control.

The problem with integration is that those "transients" don't necessarily want to integrate, learn the language, find an honest job. It looks like they want to make the maximum of money they can before they are expelled, and all that money goes back to their communities in their home countries. Like Yoana says, the home countries themselves aren't trying to integrate them. So why should other countries, who have enough problems already without having the Roma to deal with to boot? The rise of extremist Islamism is a big problem in France right now and Sarkozy does have his hands full with that. But that too is OT, or I could show you some videos and articles showing the extent of the problem and, yes, the threat that this represents.

I don't know under which conditions the other countries who deport Roma in illegal situations do it, but how many give them 300 € per adult and 100 € per child to leave, pay their plane tickets, and treat them kindly? (Once again, I refer you to Yoana's post on the experience of a few Bulgarian Roma families expelled from France.)

Gertie, I agree with you that this may be a waste of money, that, theoretically, could be better used in integration efforts. The thing is, you can't force a group of people to integrate if they just don't want to.



Last edited by FleurduJardin; September 6th, 2010 at 10:41 pm. Reason: ETA
  #75  
Old September 6th, 2010, 11:23 pm
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Re: Deportation of Roma from France

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Originally Posted by Rastaban43 View Post
It's a lot easier to cut something from the budget than to add something, the real question is how much are illegal Roma costing the French taxpayer and what can be done to both cut the cost for the French while arriving at a genuinely helpful solution for the Roma.
The thought of encouraging them to get jobs comes to mind, but then many Roma run into the problem that no one will hire them, for various reasons including the fact that new immigrants probably don't speak French. But let's not be naive -- mostly it's because they're Roma.
Let's add this up:
Illegal immigrants + taxpayer costs + zero job + zero desire by French for Roma = Deportation
Quote:
Originally Posted by gertiekeddle View Post
I've already said I'd share a lot to help giving this people a chance, so in this I'm certainly "romantic". I'd call it social, but it doesn't bother me if people think that's only an opinion fit for flower power attitudes (not saying you did), so I don't call about the cupboard I'm in either. Just in this case I believe even someone with a different position might see that the deportation is a short-term solution only - unless there are other reasons than financial concern for the State though. There's a long history to Roma in Europe and it stuns me that we still didn't achieve to solve the problems. Imo we didn't because we barely tried. I don't think we can ignore it. Not in our times anyway.
When the problem becomes such that no one will desire them for neighbors, you're already pretty much in the hole. (Would you have someone that "They throw everything into the river, bottles, vehicle oil, tyres, excrement. They cut down trees, they tap into the water supplies and leave it running everywhere." as your own neighbor? I know I wouldn't. But then in the US I certainly wouldn't have to tolerate such behaviour)

But then it seems that there is this idea that it is "Europe's problem." When does it become Roma's problem? If they cannot be productive from where they originate, how can they be so in another country where they cannot even speak the native language? Doesn't seem very bright to me. Unless that's the idea; become a parasite? Play up to the liberals as a people that just needs a little help? All the while breaking you down so that you become as impoverished as they. Until you end up working for them. (and it seems as if some are willing to do just that.)


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  #76  
Old September 7th, 2010, 3:07 am
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Re: Deportation of Roma from France

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Originally Posted by Midnightsfire View Post
But then it seems that there is this idea that it is "Europe's problem." When does it become Roma's problem?
I don't know, but given that this is not the first mass deportation, I would bet that Europe is already getting tired of considering it their problem. I'm not sure if I really see your logic coming to fruition, but I say if deporting these people is legal in France, there's no compelling reason to stop it.

...Provided, however, that everyone's honest about why they want it done.


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Old September 7th, 2010, 6:04 am
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Re: Deportation of Roma from France

It's Europe's problem in the sense that these 'immigrants' exist in many, maybe all, European countries. And, as other posters already said, if France could manage to get rid of them their numbers in other countries would increase accordingly because it is not possible for them to make a living at home. Thinking that the problem is solved by sending them home and letting their native countries deal with the problem as is their duty is self-deception. They can't and they won't.

It's not about Europe getting tired of considering it their problem, it's about getting tired of it being their problem. France is the place where it became known to the rest of the world and they may for all I know have these Roma in greater numbers than any other country, but France is not alone there.


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Old September 7th, 2010, 6:40 am
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Re: Deportation of Roma from France

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Originally Posted by FleurduJardin View Post
No, they're calling the Sarkozy administration racist, which is quite different. Consider the source. Mostly those people are those who'd like to take his place in the Elysée Palace and their supporters.
My point was the word Francophobia was floating around, and I thought that was an inaccurate way to describe a few temporary critics of France's policy. I know a few people (not in this thread) who are actually Francophobic (my parents included), but I can assure you I am not one of them. So when some half of France agrees with me, I'll be quick to point that out.

Quote:
Though I must say, in my purely personal experience, in the little chat group I'm part of - an informal group who correspond through e-mail - 3 out of 5 of our European (French and Belgian) members have had to deal with "Roma criminality", mostly petty theft, purse-snatching, things like that. It may not be a very representative sample, but still, the proportion is high.
How many people are in this group, and are these people actually victims of theft or victims of having to tell a Roma to go away, which I've done myself on plenty of occasions.

There are plenty of stories like yours in your gated community that spurn antipathy for Roma. When I was living in Rome, the local government built an apartment complex for a camp of Roma near the city and a month after the Roma moved in, the place was completely gutted and the Roma had left. I still don't believe deportation is the answer for everyone.

Quote:
The problem with integration is that those "transients" don't necessarily want to integrate, learn the language, find an honest job. It looks like they want to make the maximum of money they can before they are expelled, and all that money goes back to their communities in their home countries. Like Yoana says, the home countries themselves aren't trying to integrate them.
There's also the problem that no one wants them to integrate, whether they want to or not. And like you say yourself, this includes western countries and the Romas' own "home" countries. So why should they have any motivation to integrate in the first place when they're just waiting to be kicked out to the next place? I think some combination of deportation and integration is the best option.

Quote:
I don't know under which conditions the other countries who deport Roma in illegal situations do it, but how many give them 300 € per adult and 100 € per child to leave, pay their plane tickets, and treat them kindly? (Once again, I refer you to Yoana's post on the experience of a few Bulgarian Roma families expelled from France.)
I can't find any article saying more about how Roma are treated other than they are being given 300 Euros and a plane ticket. It makes sense there would be a Bulgarian paper reporting on this, but one article doesn't really comfort me, especially when being asked to leave politely is still being asked to leave. Right now it may be all "voluntary" and polite, but what about plans for the end of the year? Will the people who don't volunteer be treated as kindly?

It's a lot more revealing of character how we treat people while they live among us, not when they're on their way out the door.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Midnightsfire View Post
+ zero desire by French for Roma
See, that's the big problem I am having with this whole deportation mess. It's motivated by xenophobia as much as any other concern. If xenophobia is a motivation for some action, we should perhaps take a step back and ask if that's the right thing to do.



Last edited by Rastaban43; September 7th, 2010 at 7:54 am.
  #79  
Old September 7th, 2010, 10:05 am
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Re: Deportation of Roma from France

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Originally Posted by Alastor View Post
because it is not possible for them to make a living at home
It's not as easy as in France, but it certainly isn't impossible to live in Romania and Bulgaria. Living conditions are worse, but at least there they can stay legally as long as they want. People there are used to them, and them building settlements.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rastaban43 View Post
There's also the problem that no one wants them to integrate, whether they want to or not. And like you say yourself, this includes western countries and the Romas' own "home" countries. So why should they have any motivation to integrate in the first place when they're just waiting to be kicked out to the next place? I think some combination of deportation and integration is the best option.
When they want to be integrated then they should, like said before, play by the rules. They should go through the official channels and not just move there, build their huts, overstay and expect to be welcomed with open arms. That's a "Here we are, we can't bother to move back, now deal with us" mentality.

Quote:
Originally Posted by gertiekeddle View Post
That's true, but how do you achieve to avoid illegal settlements when people simply need to survive? I don't think many of us who would act any different, if being in their situation.
Yes, we would. They do that cause that's who they lived all their life. In Western Europe we are used to other things. We live in ordinary houses. There are things like asylum-seeking hostels and stuff. They could ask for accommodation in such a place. When setting up such settlements are not according to the law of that country, then you don't set one up. Easy as that.

One thing about living together is that everyone follows the rules and doesn't do what they want all the time. For a short time you can tolerate it, but on the long term something needs to be done.


  #80  
Old September 7th, 2010, 10:39 am
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Re: Deportation of Roma from France

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tenshi View Post
They should go through the official channels and not just move there, build their huts, overstay and expect to be welcomed with open arms. That's a "Here we are, we can't bother to move back, now deal with us" mentality.
Sure, their approach is wrong. I just don't think they know there are actually other possibilities. That's what I mean with integration measures, too: first step, communication between both parties involved.

Again, I just can't see me doing anything different if I were in their position, with their level of education, their tradition and with their fears to not survive. What would I hope what the country I'm currently in would do?

I'd like also to point out that there aren't only Roma from Bulgaria and Romania (or other Eastern Europe or even Asian countries). There are also Roma in Middle Western Europe for more than a half century. These differences are one reason why eg Germany is able to deport Roma and Sinti - there's this partly problematic distinction in German language to not use 'Roma' as term only - to Slovakia, Macedonia or Kosovo, but doesn't do if they belong to the 'Roma and Sinti with German identity', meaning such who live a nomad life in (nowadays so called) Western Europe for more than 500 years.

First time I noticed that there are Roma in Germany was in the Eighties when I was still a kid. It was the time when the term 'Zigeuner (gypsie)' was changed to 'Roma und Sinti' in order to prevent discrimination. The settlement problem is going on for so long, that is what I mean when I say deportation won't solve any problem and that I was shocked we still didn't get there. I'm not shocked about a deportation as action, there are really quite worse things that can happen, for particular if we think about the very human conditions of the deportation. I'm shocked that we still didn't go on in actually solving the problem. Surely, Roma maybe should have adapted to modern life in the 20th century and stop to live a nomad life.
But again, is it their fault that there's no more chance for such a thing in nowadays society? People need a home country otherwise they fail? Imo it's us who put them at the outer borders of society since we do a definition of how nowadays life has to be, ignoring other ways of living completely. It's by far not the first time in history. [Note: that's merely a way to open another approach on thinking about the problem; I'd rather support integration measures as pointed out above since I don't believe a nomad life can be prevented - and also might not be what I'd support anyway looking at gender mainstream issues in Roma society etc.].

Someone said it's OK when people already stay at a place for a decade or so and such won't be deported. I was sure I read somewhere that exactly some of those who recently got deported from France and got this worldwide media attention did live in their huts for more than a decade - but I didn't find the according quote, at least not in valid media. If anyone knows, please feel free to correct me.


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