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Deportation of Roma from France



 
 
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  #21  
Old August 26th, 2010, 11:16 am
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Re: Deportation of Roma from France

Quote:
Originally Posted by Siriusandme View Post
That all sounds extremely awfull and so forth and so on, but.... There are plenty of cultures on this whole wide world who faced the same issues who managed to rise above it. My point is that yes you are right, the Roma have been and are ill treated in society, but they are partly to blame for this. Currently at least. The could send their children, but don't want to (culture thing), the could get jobs, perhaps not the best, but don't. Up untill a certain point they choose to live the life they live. So I don't see why everyone else is to blame for their problems, but not the Roma themselves..
I think the main point people are trying to make is that the way governments are treating the 'problem' is exacerbating it and just making the situation worse, rather than doing anything constructive to help the Roma people out. If they are illiterate and not trained in any sort of trade, how can they get a job? Who will hire someone who can't speak French? Who will take in their children when they have no money to pay for school fees, uniforms or books? Who in your average French school would be able to translate the Romani languages and teach French to these children?

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Originally Posted by Kristian View Post
The problem is that France already has a lot of unemployed people. Wouldn't it be easier to educate/train french citizents that actually speak french? Besides, they are Romanian/Bulgarian citizents, so they're their responsability.
Well, if the Roma people were given the chance to learn French, I think many of them who currently live in France probably would - the problem is, I think, that there is probably no one fluent in their language and French who is willing to teach them for free. Language skills are very hard to develop, particularly for otherwise uneducated people who have never developed mental skills we take for granted, like being able to read and write.


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  #22  
Old August 26th, 2010, 1:28 pm
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Re: Deportation of Roma from France

I could be completely wrong, but I am not sure not being able to speak French is the problem. Reading and writing are definitely problems though, as well as any other kind of base-level education.


  #23  
Old August 26th, 2010, 2:21 pm
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Re: Deportation of Roma from France

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Originally Posted by moogirl View Post
I think the main point people are trying to make is that the way governments are treating the 'problem' is exacerbating it and just making the situation worse, rather than doing anything constructive to help the Roma people out. If they are illiterate and not trained in any sort of trade, how can they get a job? Who will hire someone who can't speak French? Who will take in their children when they have no money to pay for school fees, uniforms or books? Who in your average French school would be able to translate the Romani languages and teach French to these children?
The way I read it people here are saying governments have sole responsibility for the Roma's situation. This just seems too easy... I disagree.. I believe that people, for a large part, are responisible for their own situation. The Roma might be illiterate, but they are far from stupid. So saying that the Roma (or any other group of people) bear no resposibility at all for their own situation seems degrading and bad for their own self worth. Besides, I see no reason why Roma children can't go to school, can't learn a trade, etc...


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  #24  
Old August 26th, 2010, 2:34 pm
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Re: Deportation of Roma from France

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Originally Posted by Siriusandme View Post
The way I read it people here are saying governments have sole responsibility for the Roma's situation. This just seems too easy... I disagree.. I believe that people, for a large part, are responisible for their own situation. The Roma might be illiterate, but they are far from stupid. So saying that the Roma (or any other group of people) bear no resposibility at all for their own situation seems degrading and bad for their own self worth. Besides, I see no reason why Roma children can't go to school, can't learn a trade, etc...
They don't have a sole responsibility, but they have a very large one as the givers of welfare in a largely government-influenced state like France. But considering that the Roma people have not changed (and I would think they would to alleviate their own poverty) I would assume they need a helping hand, just like low-income/unemployed people the world over.

It must be noted that some Roma people have assimilated into 'normal' European society, and they have jobs and whatnot, but this is at the expense of their culture, as well as their traditional migratory way of life. I wonder if these people are being asked to leave as well? Or are they confining the deportations to those who live in shanty towns?


I have one question regarding how everyone was saying that the Roma people brought a lot of crime with them: can't the legal system deal with this? If they have sufficient evidence to charge gangs or petty criminals, then they should charge and convict them! If they don't have the evidence, then why is this being brought up as a contributing factor to these deportations?


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  #25  
Old August 26th, 2010, 3:06 pm
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Re: Deportation of Roma from France

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Originally Posted by Siriusandme View Post
So saying that the Roma (or any other group of people) bear no resposibility at all for their own situation
Who said that? Can you link them?


  #26  
Old August 26th, 2010, 3:46 pm
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Re: Deportation of Roma from France

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Originally Posted by moogirl View Post
If they are illiterate and not trained in any sort of trade, how can they get a job? Who will hire someone who can't speak French? Who will take in their children when they have no money to pay for school fees, uniforms or books? Who in your average French school would be able to translate the Romani languages and teach French to these children?
What business do the Romani have in moving to another country when they cannot neither speak the language, nor already have the job skills that they know will pay out?

If I were to move to another country I will already know the language and have a job waiting for me.

You don't go to another country and say "teach me and train me, and while you're at it clothe me, shelter me, feed me and keep me healthy."

France has enough problems with it's own citizenry and the high unemployment rate.


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  #27  
Old August 26th, 2010, 6:17 pm
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Re: Deportation of Roma from France

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Originally Posted by moogirl View Post
They don't have a sole responsibility, but they have a very large one as the givers of welfare in a largely government-influenced state like France. But considering that the Roma people have not changed (and I would think they would to alleviate their own poverty) I would assume they need a helping hand, just like low-income/unemployed people the world over.

It must be noted that some Roma people have assimilated into 'normal' European society, and they have jobs and whatnot, but this is at the expense of their culture, as well as their traditional migratory way of life. I wonder if these people are being asked to leave as well? Or are they confining the deportations to those who live in shanty towns?


I have one question regarding how everyone was saying that the Roma people brought a lot of crime with them: can't the legal system deal with this? If they have sufficient evidence to charge gangs or petty criminals, then they should charge and convict them! If they don't have the evidence, then why is this being brought up as a contributing factor to these deportations?
I don't have a problem with people needing a helping hand. Everyone does a times. But "helping" indicates that person who is being helped actually takes action. Either by following an education or by trying to find a job. And whose responsibility is bigger. The persons responsibility to provide for themselves, or the states responsibility to look after it's people. What I mean is, can a state make demands as to what a person should do to provide for themselves before the state steps in.

And I don't think the Roma are being asked to leave because they are Roma, but because they cause trouble. Their culture or ethnicity is not the point.

And I'm not sure if the legal system can deal with it. It might have a few things to do with the fact that they are illegal immigrants. But I'm not sure.


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  #28  
Old August 26th, 2010, 6:55 pm
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Re: Deportation of Roma from France

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Originally Posted by Siriusandme View Post
It might have a few things to do with the fact that they are illegal immigrants.
Citizens of EU countries are free to move and work wherever they want within the union. These people can't be labeled 'illegal immigrants'. They didn't cross any borders illegally.


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  #29  
Old August 26th, 2010, 7:15 pm
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Re: Deportation of Roma from France

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Originally Posted by Alastor View Post
Citizens of EU countries are free to move and work wherever they want within the union. These people can't be labeled 'illegal immigrants'. They didn't cross any borders illegally.
Actually that's not true. Bulgaria isn't part of the Schengen part of the EU and I think that is why all people from Bulgaria need a visa of they want to work or live in France. They can however visit for as long as it's no more that 3 months.

http://france.visahq.com/requirements/Bulgaria/

http://www.anyworkanywhere.com/visaseupassport.html

Quote:
WORK PERMIT: EEA and Swiss nationals and their families do not need work permits to work in the EEA. As a temporary exception to this rule, nationals of Bulgaria and Romania must apply for work permits during a transitional period, and nationals of the Czech Republic, Estonia, Hungary, Latvia, Lithuania, Poland, Slovakia and Slovenia must apply for work permits during a transitional period that ends on the 1 July 2008. After the 1 July 2008, nationals of these 8 countries benefit from the same freedom to work in France as other EU nationals.

RESIDENCE PERMIT (Carte de séjour): EEA and Swiss nationals are not required to hold a residence permit (carte de séjour) in France, except for citizens of Bulgaria and Romania, and until the 1 July 2008 nationals of the Czech Republic, Estonia, Hungary, Latvia, Lithuania, Poland, Slovakia and Slovenia IF any form of economic activity is to be exercised.


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  #30  
Old August 26th, 2010, 8:34 pm
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Re: Deportation of Roma from France

Sorry about that. I thought that temporary arrangement ended ages ago.

There is no mention of such a restriction still being valid for Bulgaria and Romania here:
http://europa.eu/abc/12lessons/lesson_9/index_en.htm

Question: Is this restriction still valid around the EU or is France unilaterally violating EU law?


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Last edited by Alastor; August 26th, 2010 at 8:39 pm.
  #31  
Old August 26th, 2010, 9:02 pm
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Re: Deportation of Roma from France

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Originally Posted by Alastor View Post
Sorry about that. I thought that temporary arrangement ended ages ago.

There is no mention of such a restriction still being valid for Bulgaria and Romania here:
http://europa.eu/abc/12lessons/lesson_9/index_en.htm

Question: Is this restriction still valid around the EU or is France unilaterally violating EU law?
I don't know.. There was nothing concerning a restriction on a French website either. But that website was a bit confusing so I didn't bother. All others mentioned these restrictions.

This website says these restrictions can only be implemented for 8 yrs from the moment of joining the EU.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/3513889.stm

Quote:
France
France imposed restrictions on workers from Bulgaria and Romania, as well as the eight former communist countries which joined the EU in 2004.
But on 1 July 2008 - a year earlier than planned - France opened its labour market to workers from the 2004 accession countries. That move coincided with France assuming the EU's six-month rotating presidency.
Workers from Bulgaria and Romania are eligible for fast-track work permits if they apply for any of a list of 62 jobs where recruitment is a problem. These include restaurant services, industrial maintenance, construction, public works and health.


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  #32  
Old August 26th, 2010, 9:16 pm
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Re: Deportation of Roma from France

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Originally Posted by Rastaban43 View Post
I'm not saying there isn't a problem, but using the recent Arizona Immigration law as a comparison "not any more racist" than what the French are doing is rhetorically unsound.
It was about 2:30 am when I posted that comment, and I expressed myself badly. What I did mean is that is a lot less racist - in fact it's not racist at all. Unlike the Arizona case, that's not "racial profiling" that the French are doing, they are fighting crime and delinquency.

The Roma could get an education in France, our schools are integrated, and education is free of charge all through high school. Instead, a big number of them choose to send their children out to steal. In a very organized way too. I do agree that it's not all Roma who do that - but enough of them that they all tend to be tarred with the same brush.

I just had an e-mail from a friend in Belgium, where, in her little town, the bourgmestre (mayor) is trying to integrate the Roma, not so much for humanitarian as for political reasons. But the measure is not popular, because of the criminality. One of my friend's daughter's classmates had her cell phone stolen by a Roma child (like those who mugged my French friend at an ATM, they have their MO down pat, the victims rarely have the time or means to react and defend themselves). That does not dispose her and other such victims of crime well towards Roma integration.

There is no "deep-seated hatred" of Roma in France that I know of. As I mentioned before, we have our own gypsy minority, mainly in the South of France, and they're well-integrated.

What we do object to is the lack of safety due to criminality. I should also point out that we expel foreign criminals (deporting criminals is perfectly legal), whatever their colour or ethnic origin.



Last edited by FleurduJardin; August 27th, 2010 at 3:38 am. Reason: Rewording incorrect sentence
  #33  
Old August 26th, 2010, 9:20 pm
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Re: Deportation of Roma from France

May I remind everyone before this goes any further into the racist or not discussion that racism is a banned topic in the DoIMC.


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  #34  
Old August 26th, 2010, 10:12 pm
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Re: Deportation of Roma from France

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Originally Posted by FleurduJardin View Post
There is no "deep-seated hatred" of Roma in France that I know of. As I mentioned before, we have our own gypsy minority, mainly in the South of France, and they're well-integrated.
Sorry, perhaps I was basing that statement too much in my experience with the Roma in Rome and southern Italy, where they are very much a hated group.


  #35  
Old August 26th, 2010, 10:30 pm
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Re: Deportation of Roma from France

I grew up in Romania with a Roma settlement next street. You can imagine a couple of rotten huts built on a big garbage dump. They come to town to offer their work, products or to beg. They aren't treated well by others, "gypsy" being an insult.

Begging in a country where there are hardly wealthy people isn't going to work, that's why a lot moved to Western European countries. The Roma that were deported from France said that they will return, cause life's easier in France. Legally they are allowed to do so, as they are European citizen. France, please correct me if I am wrong, can deport them when they stay longer than 3 months. They require a work permit to stay there and lets face it they are hardly going to get one. So legally they are in the right. Personally, I am not that angry at France. They were flown back, with some money. But I hardly doubt, that they volunteered. Romas were also repatriated from Germany, Sweden, Italy and more. I'm no fan of supporting people who illegally stay in another country. So when the settlements and the Roma in France are illegal, then I have nothing against this thing.

What I don't agree with is the reason why they started to deport. As far as I heared is it connected to a Roma attack on police, after those killed a Roma boy. When foreigners break the law then that one person should face punishment. You shouldn't punish a whole group of people.

Roma settlements are, according to people, the source for "human trafficking", "prostitution" and other crimes. Wouldn't be surprised.

This whole deportation isn't going to work, they will go back there sooner or later.


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  #36  
Old August 26th, 2010, 10:51 pm
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Re: Deportation of Roma from France

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Originally Posted by Hes View Post
May I remind everyone before this goes any further into the racist or not discussion that racism is a banned topic in the DoIMC.
I'm sorry, Hes, but Morgoth himself opened the door by asking this:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Morgoth View Post
3. Is this policy of deportation xenophobic and racist to you, or is it a humanitarian problem that can only be solved by sending the Roma gypies back to Romania?
We were all just trying to answer his question, and debating on the different responses..

Back to the Roma and immigration. I'm not sure they can be considered "immigrants" in the usual sense. They are more "migrants". An immigrant usually tries to work in the country s/he moves to, to integrate, to make a life there. Here, the Roms move around a lot, do nothing much to integrate, and alienate the local population, send at least a part of the money they make back to their home country, don't speak the language of the host country, don't send their children to school there.

France actually has a pretty good immigration policy. And citing the Roms' deportation and the banning of the burqa to say that it's anti-immigrant is not seeing the problems at all. France is protecting itself, in one case against criminal elements, and in the other against an extremist take-over. There is a lot more about the burqa problem but the debate doesn't belong here.

Let me also point out, as I already did, that France is not the only country to expel Roms, nor is it the only country to ban "integral covering" of the body in public places - even Syria, a Muslim country, has banned the burqa in its universities. It has nothing at all to do with immigration per se.

ETA:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Siriusandme View Post
And I don't think the Roma are being asked to leave because they are Roma, but because they cause trouble. Their culture or ethnicity is not the point.
Absolutely right. Thanks for understanding that.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tenshi View Post
What I don't agree with is the reason why they started to deport. As far as I heared is it connected to a Roma attack on police, after those killed a Roma boy. When foreigners break the law then that one person should face punishment. You shouldn't punish a whole group of people.
That was only the straw that broke the camel's back.

Muggings, stealing, trafficking, etc. by members of the Roma population had been problems for years. In my first post in this thread, I mentioned my friend who'd been robbed of € 400 at an ATM. He was so incensed he actually wrote Sarkozy, who responded (through an aide, of course) and told him what measures he intended to take. My friend's response was, "About time!"

Quote:
This whole deportation isn't going to work, they will go back there sooner or later.
That's true. Then the same people will go home again with another € 300 in their pockets that they didn't have before.



Last edited by FleurduJardin; August 26th, 2010 at 11:12 pm. Reason: ETA
  #37  
Old August 26th, 2010, 11:46 pm
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Re: Deportation of Roma from France

Hes asked me to weigh in with a verdict. As I wrote the questions myself without thinking about the race rule for the DoIMC, I think for the purposes of this debate and ONLY this debate, we can have racism as a topic. Please keep it within the parameters of the topic and do not extend it to the US or other countries with racial problems. Stick to the Roma-situation. Thanks.


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  #38  
Old August 27th, 2010, 8:20 am
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Re: Deportation of Roma from France

I just read a report in a Bulgarian newspaper about the 13 Bulgarian Roma who just came back. They say they were treated very kindly by French authorities and simply asked to return, which they did. Asked why they had to be moved back at all, they said that they were told that they either have to find a legally rented residence or leave; but since (according to them) they needed to pay the amount of 5 monthly rents in order to find a place, and they were sending all the money they made (they were working illegally) back to their families in Bulgaria, they couldn't afford it. All in all, there was no tension or clashes for those 4 families; they just came back quietly and seem to be grateful to the French for the way they were treated. They also say the majority of the Roma being deported were from Romania.


  #39  
Old August 28th, 2010, 6:12 am
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Re: Deportation of Roma from France

Thank you, Yoana, for helping dispelling the myth of the big bad French trampling all over the human rights of the Roma migrants.

Alastor - I'm not sure about the current status of the residency/immigration laws, but I don't think that if the French were deliberately and unilaterally violating a law, they could get away with it. The other European countries, especially the immigrants' home countries, would make a horrendous outcry if they did.


  #40  
Old August 28th, 2010, 8:02 am
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Re: Deportation of Roma from France

Personally, I'm extremely glad to hear that the deported Roma were treated well. That makes the whole thing seem less terrible. I doubt anyone would get that treatment if they were deported from the US.

It saddens me that these people had to work in France in order to send money back home. Are there descent jobs for Roma in Romania and Bulgaria, or is this a symptom of their being denied jobs there?


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