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  #21  
Old August 25th, 2010, 4:13 pm
Midnightsfire  Undisclosed.gif Midnightsfire is offline
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Re: Immigration and immigrants

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fiachra View Post
I think that if all countries opened their borders, it would make things a lot easier. People move to where the jobs are, but if one country takes an open stance all on it's own, most immigrants will flock in there, creating massive social problems. Not surprisingly, any country that has opened it's borders has promptly closed them again. The international community as a whole needs to cooperate to fix these problems.
And would this be supported at the expense of cultural identity?

It would make an interesting trip to Ireland to see most of it has become idenitcal to ...say...another Saudi Arabia. (nothing against SA just using an example here so don't go crazy now)


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  #22  
Old August 26th, 2010, 1:35 am
Fiachra  Male.gif Fiachra is offline
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Re: Immigration and immigrants

Unless you can prove an objective argument that Saudi Arabian culture is worse than Irish culture, then I don't think that that is a valid argument. Cultures change by themselves, without outside intervention. The growth of media such as Television and even the internet has aided that. Opening our borders will only accelerate our already fast push towards multiculturalism.

Note: the above is coming from someone who is a native speaker of Irish, with English as a second language.


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  #23  
Old August 26th, 2010, 1:49 am
silmarilien  Female.gif silmarilien is offline
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Re: Immigration and immigrants

Quote:
Unless you can prove an objective argument that Saudi Arabian culture is worse than Irish culture,
Perhaps I'm being naive, but I think that what Midnightsfire meant was that, opening up every border would sacrifice cultural diversity somehow. I think he/she picked Saudi Arabia and Ireland at random, but perhaps I misunderstood the post. I don't think that neither is better nor worse, nor do I feel that is where the post was headed.

You mention multiculturalism, but is every culture open to it? I believe there are some conservative cultures that tend to be more rigid when it comes to this matter, while it has been proved that coexistence is possible (the number of countries with clashing -radically different- communities is numerous and they do just fine) we have yet to find a way to achieve that smoothly, in a way that does not seek to impose the ways of one over the other, but rather find sort of a middle point for cordial cohabitation.

again, maybe I misunderstood the point.


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  #24  
Old August 26th, 2010, 3:33 am
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Re: Immigration and immigrants

I think it's a very colonial point of view to think your culture is inherently better than a foreign one, just because you're more familiar with it. It's a basic principle of geopolitics that populations never stay in the same place. North America wasn't always full of white people, and Europe won't always be full of white people either. I don't think this can be judged as a bad or a good thing, it just is. Loss of cultural identity? How much cultural identity do we really have left? Most Western countries are thoroughly americanized. We all know jeans, t-shirts, cellphones, computers, English, Halloween, Christmas, etc. They may not be a part of our personal life, but they're part of most of our cultures. It's not like the conquest of Latin America where another group comes and violently destroys a culture because it is entirely different from theirs, immigration and the changes that come with it nowadays are consequences of the natural shifts in populations.


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  #25  
Old August 26th, 2010, 5:35 am
Midnightsfire  Undisclosed.gif Midnightsfire is offline
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Re: Immigration and immigrants

Quote:
Originally Posted by silmarilien View Post
again, maybe I misunderstood the point.
Nah. You nailed it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fiachra View Post
Cultures change by themselves, without outside intervention. The growth of media such as Television and even the internet has aided that.
Ah, no.
Cultures rarely change by themselves so quickly without outside intervention.
My example of Ireland and everything that makes it Eire, now imagine such a heritage, such a rich culture gone...

Can't be a proud Irishman if your not...so Irish.

Heck in the US we're all Irish at least once a year and very proud of it...

And I'm a little mystified at that but um..


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  #26  
Old August 26th, 2010, 9:06 am
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Re: Immigration and immigrants

But I think Fiachra's original point (correct me if I'm wrong) was that if all countries in the EU opened their borders, immigrants would be more evenly spread and there wouldn't be such a build-up in one or two countries as to threaten the indigenous culture.


  #27  
Old August 26th, 2010, 10:08 am
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Re: Immigration and immigrants

Immigration policies in your country: Open (pro immigrants) Closed (against) Mixed (There's a variety of laws supporting either case).

From my experience, I'd say we're open towards immigrants - given that they meet our ridiculously high standards. I'm not totally familiar with immigration policy so I can't make a fact-based statement, but from everything I've heard and learned I feel that the US is not very accepting.

I live in California, which has a huge immigrant population, especially from Latin America and Europe. I've heard stories from immigrants from each region, and the disparity between them is unbelievable. If you're an English speaker, rich, and white, it seems very easy to come over here. All you have to endure is the wait. If you're poor, Hispanic, and you don't speak any English, the experience will be much more challenging. I can understand why we have these standards; I'm sure the government feels a certain type of person will be able to contribute more. However, in spite of the logical rationale, I feel that this is an intolerant and discriminatory stance.

Do you believe immigrants have made living easier or more difficult in your country? Why?

I think better. California is so culturally distinctive, largely in part to its immigrant population. Where I live - the SF Bay Area - has become sort of a melting pot. We are one of 3 white families on our street. My area has huge numbers of people from every part of the world, and I think that's been incredibly enriching. Not only has it contributed a great deal to our culture, but the influx and integration of immigrants have helped to reduce prejudices significantly.

I would also argue that even illegal immigration is beneficial. People complain that illegal immigrants "steal" jobs from us legal folks, but realistically, no one is fighting tooth and nail for a job at McDonald's or on a strawberry farm. I've seen projections of what would happen if illegal immigrants were all expelled from the US, and they're not pretty. IMO, the economic contributions of illegal immigrants more than makes up for all the controversy they cause; I think the US is just resentful towards the idea of people living "free." I've found that most people with this attitude, however, are generally unaware of how important illegal immigrants are to the state and national economy.

Are you/is anyone in your family an immigrant? Can you tell your side of the story?

My immediate family and a lot of our friends are, but we had it easy. We're all white, native English speakers (we came from the UK), and pretty well-off. I was really young when we moved so I can't give a detailed firsthand account, but I do know it was a simple process. My dad moved over here first, and we stayed behind for about 4 months waiting for our Visas; then it was over and done with.

Do you want to leave your country (permanently-for a while)? What are your reasons for it?

Yes, for a while. California especially (not sure about the rest of the US) has a very fast-paced, busy environment which is difficult to live in for a long time. I would like to go somewhere more relaxed; additionally, I love to immerse myself in different cultures and learn as much as I can about them, so that's a huge factor as well.

Is there any particular issue regarding immigration that you'd like to share or discuss? Please feel free.

I think governments spend too much time worrying about the repercussions of immigration and too little time wondering why so many people are immigrating in the first place. For example:

I went to El Salvador last year, where I worked in a rural mountain community for a week. This town exemplifies how immigration can tear countries apart. All of the town's men, except for those who worked with the program I was with, had left (illegally) for the US to find better lives for themselves. As a result, the mothers were left to care for the children and the town on their own. Without male role models, most of the boys grow into alcoholics by the time they're 10. Many of them grow marijuana in their yards, drop out of school, and sit on the streets smoking and drinking.

It's easy to see why all the men left, because conditions in El Salvador aren't exactly ideal. Many groups were thrust into poverty as a result of the civil war a couple decades ago, and lots of people can't afford schooling so a large part of the population is uneducated.

If a government wants to cut down on immigration, I think this is where they should target their efforts. Rather than fortify their own country so it becomes incredibly difficult to get in, I think it'd be more fruitful to address the reasons for immigration in the home country. A country like the US, with enormous funds going towards international welfare, could do this easily with the proper knowledge. Aiding, for example, El Salvador in improving its standard of living, education, and social integration would make people less eager to leave. Doing this on a large international scale would greatly diminish the "problem" of immigration.

(I feel like I might have come across as against immigration, but I'm definitely not - just giving my thoughts on the best ways for governments to reduce it, since that's the fad nowadays )


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Last edited by craiggles; August 26th, 2010 at 10:12 am.
  #28  
Old August 26th, 2010, 1:43 pm
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Re: Immigration and immigrants

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Originally Posted by Hes View Post
Uhm the Netherlands is an immigrant country and always has been. In fact if we hadn't received so many immigrants through the ages (starting with the Middle Ages) we would never have been as rich a country as we are now. We wouldn't have had our famous Golden Age in the 17th century, wouldn't have had such a history of trade and banking. That was all possible thanks to immgrants from all over Europe and especially the Spanish part of the Netherlands (now Vlaanderen, the north part of Belgium). I can go on...

In the 20th century we have had economical immigrants from Southern Europe (Italy), Turkey and Marokko, who came here to do the dirty work Dutch people didn't want to do anymore. Now we have economical immigrants from Eastern Europe. So no, the Netherlands isn't a country which only allows political refugees as immigrants.

Political refugees often have a sad story, because they are presecuted in their country because of their believes or resistance to the autorities. They can be put in prison or even put to death for their views. So yeah sad stories, we have a moral duty to help them IMO.
Okay, let me clear this up... When it comes to immigrants I make a clear distinction between economical immigrants and everyone else. Moroccan and Turkish people are economic immigrants as far as I am concerned. In my post I mainly refered to everyone else part.

When it comes to an immigrant policy I meant a policy like New Zealand has. Or Australia... I wish we would be a bit more picky when we let people in.

Quote:
Right... be careful that you don't make generalisations here. Because who are 'people' and 'the teens' makes it sound if all children of immigrants are causing trouble. Which seeing how many of them actually do behave and get schooling is not correct in my view.
If you ask a general question, you're bound te get a general answer. What are people here supposed to do... Give an exact discription of every ethnicity that ever immigrated to their country?? Besides I don't see how my comment is any different from yours when you say that there are people who don't want foreign students in the Netherlands...


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  #29  
Old August 26th, 2010, 2:29 pm
Midnightsfire  Undisclosed.gif Midnightsfire is offline
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Re: Immigration and immigrants

Quote:
Originally Posted by craiggles View Post
I would also argue that even illegal immigration is beneficial. People complain that illegal immigrants "steal" jobs from us legal folks, but realistically, no one is fighting tooth and nail for a job at McDonald's or on a strawberry farm. I've seen projections of what would happen if illegal immigrants were all expelled from the US, and they're not pretty. IMO, the economic contributions of illegal immigrants more than makes up for all the controversy they cause; I think the US is just resentful towards the idea of people living "free." I've found that most people with this attitude, however, are generally unaware of how important illegal immigrants are to the state and national economy.
Hmm...

There was a debate about California being the first failed state, mentioning a $20 billion dollar deficit, with nary a mention that the costs of education, health care and incarceration of illegal aliens is $10.5 billion per year.

You never encourage illegal immigration. There are laws for a reason.


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  #30  
Old August 26th, 2010, 4:08 pm
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Re: Immigration and immigrants

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Originally Posted by Siriusandme View Post
If you ask a general question, you're bound te get a general answer. What are people here supposed to do... Give an exact discription of every ethnicity that ever immigrated to their country?? Besides I don't see how my comment is any different from yours when you say that there are people who don't want foreign students in the Netherlands...
Actually I can't say what your generalisation in your earlier post is and neither can I explain my own any further because that is a banned topic. So we leave it at that.


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  #31  
Old August 27th, 2010, 12:32 am
craiggles  Male.gif craiggles is offline
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Re: Immigration and immigrants

Quote:
Originally Posted by Midnightsfire View Post
There was a debate about California being the first failed state, mentioning a $20 billion dollar deficit, with nary a mention that the costs of education, health care and incarceration of illegal aliens is $10.5 billion per year.
I skimmed the debate transcript and read the second article, as well as a few others comparing the benefits versus the consequences of illegal immigration. I admit that illegal immigration is more of a problem than I'd thought, but I still think we'd be worse off if we kicked them all out.

I don't encourage illegal immigration - this thread isn't for illegal immigration though so I won't delve into that debate. I still believe, though, that CA's illegal immigrant population has been valuable. They bring with them their own cultures and customs, which blend into ours, and imo diversity and cultural adaption are always good. They are also tethered to the success of our economy, regardless of how they affect it negatively: if we were to expel all illegal immigrants, hundreds of farms would shut down and one of CA's biggest sources of income would be gone. It's a bit of a conundrum - illegal immigration is contributing to the state's deficit, but they're also, in some sense, keeping us afloat.

Illegal immigration is a hot, controversial issue, but I think that's a good thing. The influx of immigrants in recent years has forced the public as well as the government to re-examine immigration policies, and it's sparked a lot of debate which gives birth to new insights. IMO that can only lead to progress. I'm forced to admit, after reading the articles you provided as well as a few others, that it is definitely a problem, and putting a stop to it might be a good solution, but still, I stubbornly believe that it's is constructive in a number of ways.

(sorry for the poorly written post - I haven't had my coffee yet )


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  #32  
Old August 27th, 2010, 10:00 pm
silmarilien  Female.gif silmarilien is offline
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Re: Immigration and immigrants

I don't encourage illegal immigration either, however I cannot deny from personal experience that many people that migrated from Colombia to Venezuela illegally in the 80's made a difference in many agricultural areas.

Nevertheless unchecked migration from Brazil, for example, led to the "Garimpeiro" problem, which basically resulted in deforestation and pollution of a particular area, south of the country that used to be filled with gold.

There are two side to every coin and this thread proves it!

But I like Craiggle's point of view, I gather from his post when he said
Quote:
They bring with them their own cultures and customs, which blend into ours, and imo diversity and cultural adaption are always good.
that it can be argued that immigrants can contribute to the creation of more open communities, thus enabling a society that is less discriminating.

I'd like to think that as plus side of immigration right?


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  #33  
Old August 28th, 2010, 1:23 pm
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Re: Immigration and immigrants

Quote:
Originally Posted by silmarilien View Post
Perhaps I'm being naive, but I think that what Midnightsfire meant was that, opening up every border would sacrifice cultural diversity somehow. I think he/she picked Saudi Arabia and Ireland at random, but perhaps I misunderstood the post. I don't think that neither is better nor worse, nor do I feel that is where the post was headed.

You mention multiculturalism, but is every culture open to it? I believe there are some conservative cultures that tend to be more rigid when it comes to this matter, while it has been proved that coexistence is possible (the number of countries with clashing -radically different- communities is numerous and they do just fine) we have yet to find a way to achieve that smoothly, in a way that does not seek to impose the ways of one over the other, but rather find sort of a middle point for cordial cohabitation.

again, maybe I misunderstood the point.
Globalisation, and the loss of cultural diversity that goes with it, has been ongoing since the growth of civilisation. Our love of media, such as the television, film, music, and perhaps most importantly, the internet has accelerated that to a point where it can't be contained. And that's not including the fact that you can fly to any city in the world in less than three days...

Shutting off our borders is not going to end globalisation. Indeed, I don't think that removing immigration restrictions across the board, will do much to accelerate the rate at which it goes. People move where there are jobs, but if you can find a job in your own country, why would you move in the first place?


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  #34  
Old August 29th, 2010, 7:35 pm
silmarilien  Female.gif silmarilien is offline
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Re: Immigration and immigrants

Quote:
People move where there are jobs, but if you can find a job in your own country, why would you move in the first place?
Your entire post makes a very good point and honestly I'm not one to go on about patrotism or fighting for your cultural background, I'm known for promoting quite the opposite (I mean, I don't pride myself in being born somewhere or in some condition, does that make sense? I like to think that we are all the same no matter where we come from or go to). I respect these feelings and views and I understand them, but I also believe that globalization is an innevitable step in human evolution.

However I did want to say that jobs are not the only reason people move or want to move (I'm not saying that's what you believe either, but it is close to home so...). Migration is a lot more complex than that, for instance the Clombian immigration we had in the 80's and 90's was due mainly to the presence of the Farc in their home country. There are many reasons behind immigration, personally I have a job - granted not a great one but it's not terribly bad one either- I mainly want to move out because I'm scared for my life -all the time- and all I want to do is have a job, work, pay my taxes and civil duties and just trust the establishment to protect me, to feel safe... however I will not go into details because that's not the point of the thread.

Talking about Colombian immigrants, they brought with them music, food and a taste for Colmbian soups, for example!These have blended in so well with the native ones that new genres have been born from them and people quite like them! They even made it to the Latin Grammy's!


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  #35  
Old August 29th, 2010, 8:25 pm
Midnightsfire  Undisclosed.gif Midnightsfire is offline
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Re: Immigration and immigrants

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fiachra View Post
Shutting off our borders is not going to end globalisation. Indeed, I don't think that removing immigration restrictions across the board, will do much to accelerate the rate at which it goes. People move where there are jobs, but if you can find a job in your own country, why would you move in the first place?
This may be a good thing for you...but as I tried to point out many love thier respective cultures and don't wish to see it go away.

I see this as putting a price on something that doesn't have a price, because it is just that; invaluable. I honestly don't understand why you'd be willing to throw out your heritage so cheaply Or so how I see it...

Fortunately, things may change in the US now that globalisation is becoming a bad word
We are long overdue for changes.


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  #36  
Old August 30th, 2010, 4:03 am
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Re: Immigration and immigrants

Immigration policies in your country: Open (pro immigrants) Closed (against) Mixed (There's a variety of laws supporting either case).
I think this picture explains it nicely
http://laeastside.com/wp-content/upl...-flowchart.jpg

Do you believe immigrants have made living easier or more difficult in your country? Why?
Well, depends on the country they come from and what kind of jobs they're taking. I'm guessing for the most part, better.

Are you/is anyone in your family an immigrant? Can you tell your side of the story?
I was born in the US, my both my parents are immigrants from China.

My dad grew up in China, but went to college in America in his early twenties and he got his masters in Chemistry, though he probably could've gotten a Doctorate if he wanted to. However, my mom wasn't. My dad brought her over after he finished college and I don't think her life's improved. She still barely knows any English, can't function in society, stays at home all day, has no American friends whatsoever and wants to go back to China as soon as I graduate high school. Her attitude just annoys me so much, she's been here for at least over 15 years, completely refuses to speak English, learn English, or do anything with English. And then she tells me that it's to help me learn Chinese, though it's obviously much more important for her to learn the language of the country she lives in.

Do you want to leave your country (permanently-for a while)? What are your reasons for it?

America is my home, I definitely don't want to leave here forever, but I would love to be able to travel.

Is there any particular issue regarding immigration that you'd like to share or discuss? Please feel free.
Because of my mom, I have rather strong views on immigrants that come here and refuse to adopt any of the culture and customs of the country they immigrated to. My mom judges pretty much everyone by how a Chinese person would, tries to get me to be as close to the Chinese standard of how kids should be as possible, and again, doesn't speak English. If that's going to be the attitude of an immigrant, they might as well just stay in their home country. Personally, I think in addition to a citizenship test, immigrants should take a test that makes sure that they can read, speak and write at at least a 6th grade level. Well, actually, I'm not quite sure the citizenship test is all that great anyways (for America), I mean, I bet a lot of naturalized US citizens couldn't answer a lot of those questions, but language is irrefutably important.


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  #37  
Old August 30th, 2010, 1:29 pm
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Re: Immigration and immigrants

Quote:
Originally Posted by Voldemorts8thHorcrux View Post
Immigration policies in your country: Open (pro immigrants) Closed (against) Mixed (There's a variety of laws supporting either case).
I think this picture explains it nicely
http://laeastside.com/wp-content/upl...-flowchart.jpg
Your link isn't working (at least not for me)... Was it this chart?
http://www.jacksonvilleconfidential....low-chart.html


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  #38  
Old August 30th, 2010, 7:52 pm
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Re: Immigration and immigrants

I think that immigration is a good thing for the most part, as long as it takes place in moderation. There are lots of immigrants in Britain that make a great contribution to society, particularly those who take on skilled jobs such as doctors and surgeons. However, in times of mass unemployment, I do think immigration should be limited because it puts a huge strain on the country's resources.

My nan is an immigrant. She moved to England from South Africa in the 1950s to marry my Grandad and she's had a British passport for some time. She still calls South Africa 'home' but she also now considers herself to be English. She also thinks that immigration is great but needs to be seriously moderated in this country.


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  #39  
Old August 31st, 2010, 12:03 am
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Re: Immigration and immigrants

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Originally Posted by Pox Voldius View Post
Your link isn't working (at least not for me)... Was it this chart?
http://www.jacksonvilleconfidential....low-chart.html
Yep, and that's weird....works well for me.


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  #40  
Old August 31st, 2010, 1:17 am
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Re: Immigration and immigrants

Quote:
Originally Posted by Voldemorts8thHorcrux View Post
Yep, and that's weird....works well for me.
Ah-ha -- Yeah, I like that chart, too. Shows just why we need to reform our immigration system here.

And to think that the US didn't really even have any laws restricting immigration until 1875! Most of my ancestors immigrated here before that and didn't have such hoops to jump through as there are now -- they just had to find the means/financing to get here was all.

(And for some reason, your link just gives me a page-not-found message saying "Sorry, no posts matched your criteria.")


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Last edited by Pox Voldius; August 31st, 2010 at 2:05 am.
 
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