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  #61  
Old September 18th, 2010, 7:55 am
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Re: Feminism: Definitions and Misconceptions

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Originally Posted by FGG View Post
I see where you guys are coming from, but I dunno... I think it's pretty safe to say that if smoking is known to cause cancer and is generally known to be bad for non-pregnant people, it's probably bad for pregnant women too. That, and it's also kind of a medical fact that smoking is bad for a fetus. The same goes for drinking in excess, doing illegal drugs, overexercising, overeating, and pretty much every other unhealthy thing out there to do. I mean, sure, there's freedom to have as many habits and vices as you want, but pregnant or not pregnant, that doesn't make it less bad for your overall health; let alone your child's.
Again, I was clear in my post that there are things that are pretty clear-cut. No one is suggesting that it's a good idea for women to smoke or drink while pregnant; as far as we know, those things are dangerous for everyone.

But when you get beyond the obvious stuff like that, it can be very hard to judge these things. There are a lot of things that may be dangerous for one pregnant woman but okay for another, and the average person, or even the woman's partner, may not be able to accurately judge. You mention overexercising, for example. Who decides how much exercise is too much? Some women might not be able to handle much exercise at all, so anything might be too much. But others can exercise. See how it's subjective?

This discussion started regarding whether it's sexist to suggest that a pregnant woman shouldn't be doing active police duty. That's an extreme example, and I think it's pretty reasonable to conclude that chasing criminals could be dangerous for the developing fetus.

But what if it wasn't such an obvious danger? What if the character had a job that was not necessarily dangerous, and her boss made her go on leave because he/she assumed that a pregnant woman wouldn't be able to handle it? What if this was contrary what the woman's doctor said was okay, and what the woman herself was comfortable with. Would this not be patronizing?

If we were talking about people with disabilities, I'm sure we could agree that if someone can prove they can do something, they should be able to do it. It would be patronizing to suggest, for example, that no one with a condition that limits their mobility can ever drive. If someone can pass a driver's test and prove that they're safe to be on the road, they're entitled to a license.

Why shouldn't pregnant women be treated with the same courtesy? Sure, if we're talking about something that's documented as being dangerous, like cigarettes or alcohol, that's one thing. But I don't think the average person is qualified to tell a woman how to handle her pregnancy.


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Old September 18th, 2010, 11:05 am
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Re: Feminism: Definitions and Misconceptions

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Originally Posted by DancingMaenid View Post
But what if it wasn't such an obvious danger? What if the character had a job that was not necessarily dangerous, and her boss made her go on leave because he/she assumed that a pregnant woman wouldn't be able to handle it? What if this was contrary what the woman's doctor said was okay, and what the woman herself was comfortable with. Would this not be patronizing?
It could also be a case of the boss trying to protect him/herself and the business against possible litigation, if anything were to happen to the pregnant woman or her baby in the course of her work duties.


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  #63  
Old September 18th, 2010, 1:17 pm
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Re: Feminism: Definitions and Misconceptions

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Originally Posted by DancingMaenid View Post
But I don't think the average person is qualified to tell a woman how to handle her pregnancy.

Yes and no. The average person? Probably not. That being said pregnancy is is full of stuff that mmany women do not even educate themselves about. For instance, did you know that a pregnant woman should not eat imported cheeses (here in America) because they tend not be pasteurized and can lead to certain bacteria that is harmful to the fetus? I don't think most women would know that unless specifically instructed by heir doctor. I think it's just as presumptuaous to say that every woman "knows her body". If we were all experts on human anatomy that would be one thing but in this case many woman willingly do not educate themselves about their pregnancy. Some women "assume the worst" and other women are frightfully naive. The doctor def is the best source of info. And mostly the doctor will tell you that if you are used to doing something it safe for you to continue to do so providing that you don't over exert yourself. The doctor also says that if a woman is sedentary, like at a desk job, that taking up a new excercise program isn't healthy for the fetus. And here I think is the rub. When you decide to take a pregnancy to term you are deciding to take care of the child. Period. That means not doing anything risky or damaging to your body because that, intrinsically, would be bad for the baby.


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Old September 18th, 2010, 2:49 pm
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Re: Feminism: Definitions and Misconceptions

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Originally Posted by flimseycauldron View Post
Yes and no. The average person? Probably not. That being said pregnancy is is full of stuff that mmany women do not even educate themselves about. For instance, did you know that a pregnant woman should not eat imported cheeses (here in America) because they tend not be pasteurized and can lead to certain bacteria that is harmful to the fetus? I don't think most women would know that unless specifically instructed by heir doctor. I think it's just as presumptuaous to say that every woman "knows her body". If we were all experts on human anatomy that would be one thing but in this case many woman willingly do not educate themselves about their pregnancy. Some women "assume the worst" and other women are frightfully naive. The doctor def is the best source of info. And mostly the doctor will tell you that if you are used to doing something it safe for you to continue to do so providing that you don't over exert yourself. The doctor also says that if a woman is sedentary, like at a desk job, that taking up a new excercise program isn't healthy for the fetus. And here I think is the rub. When you decide to take a pregnancy to term you are deciding to take care of the child. Period. That means not doing anything risky or damaging to your body because that, intrinsically, would be bad for the baby.
I think here we need to remember that she is the one allowing the child to grow inside her body, and that the child does not have rights to her. Of course, most pregnant women intending on keeping the child would ensure they do everything possible to make sure said child is healthy. But one needs to remember that this is nine months of someone's life - telling a fitness freak she can't exercise at all, or a food critic she can't eat certain types of cheese at a restaurant, or a scientist she can't do her job any more because of possibly dangerous chemicals that she knows how to handle... it's just not right. Just because a woman decides to keep a child does not mean that she owes the child anything - she should not be obliged to give up all of her normal occupations to just sit in bed eating mushed peas for nine months because doing anything else might harm the baby. Admittedly, I think pregnant women should take a little bit more care when going about their daily lives than other people, but there is risk in everything we do. If a pregnant woman was not to do anything risky for the term of her pregnancy, she'd be completely deranged by the end of it.


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  #65  
Old September 18th, 2010, 3:44 pm
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Re: Feminism: Definitions and Misconceptions

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Originally Posted by flimseycauldron View Post
Yes and no. The average person? Probably not. That being said pregnancy is is full of stuff that mmany women do not even educate themselves about. For instance, did you know that a pregnant woman should not eat imported cheeses (here in America) because they tend not be pasteurized and can lead to certain bacteria that is harmful to the fetus?
I did know that, because it was very well publicised in the UK a few years ago (and my sister kept moaning to me throughout her pregnancies that she was dying to eat Brie and couldn't). I think the answer is more public education through antenatal classes, government advertising campaigns etc and then let women make up their own minds, rather than well-intentioned bystanders or the woman's partner trying to police her behaviour. In extreme cases (e.g. if the woman is doing crystal meth or something), I think social services should step in, but in general I think, as long as women are given the information to make an informed choice, they can be trusted to do what is best for their family.

Quote:
The doctor def is the best source of info.


  #66  
Old September 18th, 2010, 4:19 pm
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Re: Feminism: Definitions and Misconceptions

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Originally Posted by FurryDice View Post
It could also be a case of the boss trying to protect him/herself and the business against possible litigation, if anything were to happen to the pregnant woman or her baby in the course of her work duties.
Quote:
Originally Posted by flimseycauldron View Post
Yes and no. The average person? Probably not.
If I may combine these two posts..

..and say that the average person is qualified to protect him/herself and her/his business from litigation should said pregant person become injured because of her...blanket blank self.


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  #67  
Old September 18th, 2010, 6:02 pm
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Re: Feminism: Definitions and Misconceptions

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Just because a woman decides to keep a child does not mean that she owes the child anything - she should not be obliged to give up all of her normal occupations to just sit in bed eating mushed peas for nine months because doing anything else might harm the baby
Indeed, if that was necessary, humanity wouldn't have reached this far; we would be extinted by now. Does anyone else wonder how our great-grandmothers could have babies eating non-sterilized food, farming and working while pregnant and wihout prenatal classes? I'm not saying that a pregnant woman can do whatever she fancies without minding the consequences, but honestly, all the precautions in the world won't prevent that a tile falls on your head or that you slip on the stairs, and that has more probabilities than getting harmed for eating brie cheese.


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  #68  
Old September 18th, 2010, 6:39 pm
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Re: Feminism: Definitions and Misconceptions

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Originally Posted by MmeBergerac View Post
Indeed, if that was necessary, humanity wouldn't have reached this far; we would be extinted by now. Does anyone else wonder how our great-grandmothers could have babies eating non-sterilized food, farming and working while pregnant and wihout prenatal classes? I'm not saying that a pregnant woman can do whatever she fancies without minding the consequences, but honestly, all the precautions in the world won't prevent that a tile falls on your head or that you slip on the stairs, and that has more probabilities than getting harmed for eating brie cheese.
Well as for that, I would speculate that 100 years ago women simply had more babies and fewer of them survived into adulthood. In my country it definitely appears that a baby born today is far more likely to survive labor and be healthy.

Anyway, anybody got any somewhat more feminism-related items to discuss?

ETA: just for the sake of stats, it looks like the birth rate today is about half of what it was in 1910 (even though with our greater population now that still means way more live births per year, and consider that we apparently have one abortion for every three births), but the overall population growth rate looks to be about the same as it was in that decade.

ETAA: our growth rate may not be that high after all, the recession has apparently significantly impacted it.



Last edited by canismajoris; September 18th, 2010 at 6:49 pm.
  #69  
Old September 18th, 2010, 7:23 pm
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Re: Feminism: Definitions and Misconceptions

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Originally Posted by canismajoris View Post
Well as for that, I would speculate that 100 years ago women simply had more babies and fewer of them survived into adulthood. In my country it definitely appears that a baby born today is far more likely to survive labor and be healthy.

Anyway, anybody got any somewhat more feminism-related items to discuss?

ETA: just for the sake of stats, it looks like the birth rate today is about half of what it was in 1910 (even though with our greater population now that still means way more live births per year, and consider that we apparently have one abortion for every three births), but the overall population growth rate looks to be about the same as it was in that decade.

ETAA: our growth rate may not be that high after all, the recession has apparently significantly impacted it.
Sorry to be picky, but if the birth rate in 1910 was double what it is now, doesn't that kind of prove MmeB's point - that babies survived their mothers' pregnancy, even though pregnant women were doing farmwork and eating unpasteurised cheese. It was after they were born that they began dropping like flies.


  #70  
Old September 18th, 2010, 7:35 pm
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Re: Feminism: Definitions and Misconceptions

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Originally Posted by Melaszka View Post
Sorry to be picky, but if the birth rate in 1910 was double what it is now, doesn't that kind of prove MmeB's point - that babies survived their mothers' pregnancy, even though pregnant women were doing farmwork and eating unpasteurised cheese. It was after they were born that they began dropping like flies.
Oh, I don't know what it means in particular, I was just musing. I believe that birth rate is only counting live births, so who knows how many miscarriages and dead births there were. It seems way more women had way more pregnancies and the population was still barely growing faster than it is now. Part of the reason is that the infant mortality rate is a tiny fraction of what it was even 50 years ago. So I think the implication is that we took a "quantity over quality" approach. My conclusion is that even though there's a lower birth rate now and we seem to have a lot of abortions, the babies actually born are practically an order of magnitude more likely to survive a month and a year and live to adulthood.

Anyway, just being born alive doesn't mean a baby didn't suffer significant problems in utero.



Last edited by canismajoris; September 18th, 2010 at 7:39 pm.
  #71  
Old September 18th, 2010, 7:38 pm
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Re: Feminism: Definitions and Misconceptions

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Oh, I don't know what it means in particular, I was just musing. I believe that birth rate is only counting live births, so who knows how many miscarriages and dead births there were. It seems way more women had way more pregnancies and the population was still barely growing faster than it is now. Part of the reason is that the infant mortality rate is a tiny fraction of what it was even 50 years ago. So I think the implication is that we took a "quantity over quality" approach. My conclusion is that even though there's a lower birth rate now and we seem to have a lot of abortions, the babies actually born are practically an order of magnitude more likely to survive a month and a year and live to adulthood.
You're probably right, Bill. I'd kind of assumed that it's more likely that vaccinations, clean water etc had eradicated the main causes of infant mortality, not that babies were emerging from the womb stronger, but we don't really have the evidence to prove it either way, so I'm just going to drop this argument.


  #72  
Old September 18th, 2010, 7:43 pm
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Re: Feminism: Definitions and Misconceptions

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You're probably right, Bill. I'd kind of assumed that it's more likely that vaccinations, clean water etc had eradicated the main causes of infant mortality, not that babies were emerging from the womb stronger, but we don't really have the evidence to prove it either way, so I'm just going to drop this argument.
Yeah, we could use some medical authority here... are there any OB/GYNs on CoS?


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Old September 18th, 2010, 10:27 pm
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Re: Feminism: Definitions and Misconceptions

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When you decide to take a pregnancy to term you are deciding to take care of the child. Period. That means not doing anything risky or damaging to your body because that, intrinsically, would be bad for the baby.
I agree, completely. I think that if a woman decides to take a pregnancy to term, she should take into account the welfare of the foetus. I don't think it's fair to try to have it both ways, if a woman doesn't want to do a single thing to keep the baby healthy, why is she continuing with the pregnancy?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Midnightsfire View Post
If I may combine these two posts..

..and say that the average person is qualified to protect him/herself and her/his business from litigation should said pregant person become injured because of her...blanket blank self.
I'm not sure I fully get that statement. But, I think an employer would want to have it on the record that he/she asked the pregnant woman if she would prefer less physically taxing duties while pregnant. Because, imo, a lot of people are very quick to file lawsuits nowadays, and making the option available is one of the ways of protecting his/her business against lawsuits.


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  #74  
Old December 13th, 2010, 7:59 pm
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Re: Feminism: Definitions and Misconceptions

*pokes thread*

Feminism was brought up a few weeks ago in one of my classes. My professor - a passionate feminist herself - was talking about it and then asked if anyone in the class would identify themselves as a feminist. The only people who raised their hands were two other people and me. She then asked if any men supported feminism and not one of them raised their hands.

After talking about it, one guy mentioned that, while he supported women's rights, he didn't identify himself as feminist because of the negative stigma that goes with the word. In his mind, feminists are radical women who hate men.

As a rebuttal, my professor came up with a good point, I think. While there are extremists who use feminism to back their hatred (and in the most extreme cases, violence) against men, should that be any reason to not support feminism? For instance, there are many POC who hate white people, but, because of their hatred, should we say we do not advocate helping them achieve their rights? Granted, every ideology (social, religious, political, etc.) has extremists one way or another, but this is a poor excuse to say that one does not support a cause. I think this applies to feminism as well.


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  #75  
Old December 13th, 2010, 8:07 pm
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Re: Feminism: Definitions and Misconceptions

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Originally Posted by Beatifically View Post
*pokes thread*

Feminism was brought up a few weeks ago in one of my classes. My professor - a passionate feminist herself - was talking about it and then asked if anyone in the class would identify themselves as a feminist. The only people who raised their hands were two other people and me. She then asked if any men supported feminism and not one of them raised their hands.

After talking about it, one guy mentioned that, while he supported women's rights, he didn't identify himself as feminist because of the negative stigma that goes with the word. In his mind, feminists are radical women who hate men.

As a rebuttal, my professor came up with a good point, I think. While there are extremists who use feminism to back their hatred (and in the most extreme cases, violence) against men, should that be any reason to not support feminism? For instance, there are many POC who hate white people, but, because of their hatred, should we say we do not advocate helping them achieve their rights? Granted, every ideology (social, religious, political, etc.) has extremists one way or another, but this is a poor excuse to say that one does not support a cause. I think this applies to feminism as well.
[staff edit] I wonder how that "stigma" came to be at all. Since MOST feminists are not man-haters or extremists of any sort. Actually I don't wonder that much...



Last edited by Melaszka; December 14th, 2010 at 11:35 am. Reason: Language
  #76  
Old December 14th, 2010, 7:10 am
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Re: Feminism: Definitions and Misconceptions

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Originally Posted by FurryDice View Post
I agree, completely. I think that if a woman decides to take a pregnancy to term, she should take into account the welfare of the foetus. I don't think it's fair to try to have it both ways, if a woman doesn't want to do a single thing to keep the baby healthy, why is she continuing with the pregnancy?
I always thought this was really unfair. There is a risk involved in just about everything people do and for some reason some risks are accepted (driving cars, riding a bicycle) and others aren't (eating certain foods of drinking a glass of wine). Even though in my (completely unfounded) opinion driving a car is way more risky than drinking a glass of wine.


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  #77  
Old December 14th, 2010, 11:19 am
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Re: Feminism: Definitions and Misconceptions

Quote:
Posted by Beatifically:

After talking about it, one guy mentioned that, while he supported women's rights, he didn't identify himself as feminist because of the negative stigma that goes with the word. In his mind, feminists are radical women who hate men.
Perhaps he should have asked first what the teacher understood by feminist. The discussion would have been more interesting.


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  #78  
Old December 14th, 2010, 11:37 am
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Re: Feminism: Definitions and Misconceptions

Guys, could we please steer clear of statements of what is and is not safe in pregnancy? Remember the CoS "No health advice" rule.


  #79  
Old December 15th, 2010, 12:00 pm
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Re: Feminism: Definitions and Opinions

Just changed the thread topic title a tad, as it was pointed out to us that the word "misconceptions" in the title contained an inherent bias, as it implies that one definition is the "right" one.


  #80  
Old December 15th, 2010, 3:17 pm
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Re: Feminism: Definitions and Misconceptions

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Originally Posted by MmeBergerac View Post
Perhaps he should have asked first what the teacher understood by feminist. The discussion would have been more interesting.
I would have been interested myself.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Beatifically View Post
*pokes thread*
As a rebuttal, my professor came up with a good point, I think. While there are extremists who use feminism to back their hatred (and in the most extreme cases, violence) against men, should that be any reason to not support feminism? For instance, there are many POC who hate white people, but, because of their hatred, should we say we do not advocate helping them achieve their rights? Granted, every ideology (social, religious, political, etc.) has extremists one way or another, but this is a poor excuse to say that one does not support a cause. I think this applies to feminism as well.
Allow me to rebut;
Feminism is a slippery term. Much like the words, Republican, Democrat, Christian, Muslim, and as such can mean something very different to those that either use such tems to apply to themselves, or to those that view others that do so.
Feminism has (to me anyway) come to be dismissed as a political term.


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