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  #101  
Old November 3rd, 2010, 10:10 pm
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Re: Gay Marriage

Quote:
Originally Posted by agpotter View Post
Judge Walker's own sexual preference and well-known activism is what made his decision biased.
And if a straight judge overrules gay marriage, would you say s/he's biased, too?


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  #102  
Old November 3rd, 2010, 11:45 pm
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Re: Gay Marriage

Quote:
Originally Posted by agpotter View Post
Judge Walker's own sexual preference and well-known activism is what made his decision biased.
Yoana pretty much sums this up: "And if a straight judge overrules gay marriage, would you say s/he's biased, too?"

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Again, I ask, what's the point of voting if it is so easily overturned?
Again, I ask, can we deny a minority rights based on majority opinion? Imagine if your own rights were put to a vote.

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And "separation of church and state" is something often thrown around, and seldom understood--It wasn't instituted to keep religion out of government, it was instituted to keep government out of religion.
Wow, I think you proved it's seldom understood with the latter half of that sentence.

Religion has no place in our laws. People are welcome to be religious and to have religious ideals, and religion is even welcome as a moral base, but it's not meant to legislate everyone. There's more than one religion in the United States not to mention the atheists. Last I checked, we don't live in a theocracy.

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And of course you must realize, even if it's not your thing, that there are a great many who want to get married to someone of the same sex in a church.
Oh I agree. There are plenty of gay people who are religious, and believe it or not, there are plenty of religions out there that are willing to marry gay people if only the state would let them. If you want to argue that marriage is a religious-only institution, please sacrifice your state-given rights. Then also recognize there are churches out there that have different doctrine than yours. Would you like another church to tell your church what it can and can't do?

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There are no right being denied regarding marriage. Obtaining a marriage license and getting married is not a right, it's a privilege, one for which you must meet certain requirements to qualify (such as age and gender), not unlike being able to qualify for a driver's license.
Wow, I didn't know gay people weren't allowed to drive. I'd better sacrifice my permit to the DMV. If it were such a privilege, how come people are allowed to marry, divorce and remarry willy nilly? If you give two adults the right to state benefits, you should give any two adults the same right to state benefits. The idea that marriage is a privilege is laughable.

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Still think schools aren't being required to teach homosexuality and gay marriage with zero regard for parental rights? ... And this is just the tip of the iceberg.
Gay people are everywhere and we're not just going to go away. The education is there to help children understand that there are all kinds of families and to discourage kids from making fun of and bullying gay children and the children of gay parents.

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I'm sorry to have dared challenge popular opinion (at least, that which is popular in this forum--The majority of the American public tends to feel otherwise).
The majority of Americans thought interracial marriages should be illegal before the Supreme Court ruled any state bans on interracial marriages unconstitutional in 1967. And even well after that decision, the majority thought they should be illegal. Do you care to dare that unpopular opinion?

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I make one statement of opinion and I'm picked apart and called a bigot. Nice to see things haven't changed around here.
Actually, things have changed around here and in the United States. You might be surprised to know that people are quickly coming to the realisation that refusing rights to gay people is immoral. According to an AP poll, last year 46 percent of Americans believed gay people should have the right to marry but this year, that number has increased to 52 percent. I have no doubt in my mind that as more and more people actually get to know the gay people around them, they'll find that we're just your average person looking for the same things out of life that you are: life, liberty, love, security, happiness, etc.


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Last edited by Rastaban43; November 4th, 2010 at 12:03 am.
  #103  
Old November 3rd, 2010, 11:59 pm
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Re: Gay Marriage

Can everyone please make their language a little more temperate? I don't want to see words like e.g. "bigotry", "ignorance", "whim" or "treacle" used to disrespect other posters' views.


  #104  
Old November 4th, 2010, 12:37 am
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Re: Gay Marriage

Quote:
Originally Posted by agpotter View Post
I am against gay marriage for a few reasons, not least of all because of the requirements it's going to force on schools to teach children certain things with or without their parents' consent, and on religions to marry people of the same sex regardless of their standards or beliefs, lest they lose privileges and certain freedoms.
I live in Canada and was educated in Canada where gay marriage is legal. The only message I remember being taught in schools is "Gay is Okay". I'm a little unclear - is this the message you are talking about - or are you against teaching something else? If it is about the message "gay is okay", then I must ask - what is wrong with teaching tolerance in schools?

Edit: Okay, I read this from your first link in a later post:
Quote:
A group of parents in a California school district
say they are being bullied by school administrators into accepting a new curriculum that addresses bullying, respect and acceptance
Now I'm really confused - what is wrong with teaching kids about respect and acceptance?


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Last edited by DeliciousMoon; November 4th, 2010 at 12:42 am.
  #105  
Old November 4th, 2010, 12:47 am
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Re: Gay Marriage

Quote:
Originally Posted by agpotter View Post
Judge Walker's own sexual preference and well-known activism is what made his decision biased.
Have you read his entire decision? Because the decision is sound in its logic. I read it and it's simply outstanding.



Last edited by NumberEight; November 4th, 2010 at 12:52 am.
  #106  
Old November 4th, 2010, 1:25 am
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Re: Gay Marriage

Quote:
Originally Posted by agpotter View Post
I make one statement of opinion and I'm picked apart and called a bigot. Nice to see things haven't changed around here. I'm sorry to have dared challenge popular opinion (at least, that which is popular in this forum--The majority of the American public tends to feel otherwise).
It's not that we are pulling apart everything you say because you have a differing opinion and we like to keep everything happy and fluffy around here, it's because for alot of us - this is our life, this is our reality, we aren't legally allowed to live our lives the way we want to with the same rights as everyone else just because of who we love.

Do you think that we choose to live like this? If I loved a man life would be so much easier for me, my family would still speak to me, I could get married, have kids with both our DNA, and walk down the street holding his hand without getting stares and derogatory comments.

So yes, some of us may be taking this personally, and we will continue to challenge your statements, because this is something we GLBT want changed so that we can live life like everyone else.


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  #107  
Old November 4th, 2010, 10:04 am
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Re: Gay Marriage

Quote:
Originally Posted by agpotter View Post
I am against gay marriage for a few reasons, not least of all because of the requirements it's going to force on schools to teach children certain things with or without their parents' consent, and on religions to marry people of the same sex regardless of their standards or beliefs, lest they lose privileges and certain freedoms. Even religious and moral reasons aside, a man and woman's complementarity as husband and wife is the ideal situation in which to raise a child. That's just how I feel. Also, Judge Vaughn Walker's behavior was unconstitutional, undemocratic and just not right. Why even bother voting if it can be overturned by one biased official?

Just thought there should be some kind of opposing opinion in here. It was getting sticky from all the treacle.
do they teach anything decidely heterosexual in school simply because the current view of marriage in most states is that between a man and a woman? No, they do not. Thus, your argument that allowing gay marriage would force schools to teach gay marriage or the gay "lifestyle" to children in school is without merit.

religious institutions should not be and are not required to marry gays, even in states where gay marriage has been or is currently legal. We don't wish to force our rights to marriage upon the religious institutions that hate us. we wish to have the legal protections and privledges that come from being married. marriage is a legal contract, not a religious construct.

male and female role models can be found in many aspects of a person's life outside the home, so while you may contend that a man and woman raising a child is "ideal" (and I don't agree with that), it is not necessary.

Walker's actions might have been, in a strict sense, undemocratic, but it was not unconstitutional. such laws against gay marriage write into state constitions a bigotry and prejudice that is itself unconstitutional.

Quote:
Originally Posted by agpotter View Post
Judge Walker's own sexual preference and well-known activism is what made his decision biased. Again, I ask, what's the point of voting if it is so easily overturned? And "separation of church and state" is something often thrown around, and seldom understood--It wasn't instituted to keep religion out of government, it was instituted to keep government out of religion. You can't take religion out of this country, because it was founded on religious principles. And of course you must realize, even if it's not your thing, that there are a great many who want to get married to someone of the same sex in a church.

There are no right being denied regarding marriage. Obtaining a marriage license and getting married is not a right, it's a privilege, one for which you must meet certain requirements to qualify (such as age and gender), not unlike being able to qualify for a driver's license.

Still think schools aren't being required to teach homosexuality and gay marriage with zero regard for parental rights? See here, here, here, here, here, here... Need I go on? As for churches required to perform gay marriages, that's on the horizon too, not to mention calls for churches to lose their tax-exempt status if they do not conform to social whims and trends. And this is just the tip of the iceberg. So, not, y'know, "false."

I make one statement of opinion and I'm picked apart and called a bigot. Nice to see things haven't changed around here. I'm sorry to have dared challenge popular opinion (at least, that which is popular in this forum--The majority of the American public tends to feel otherwise).
You know, if I hear one more person spout off about separation of church and state being about protecting religion from government, and not also goverment from religion, I will scream. Also, this country was not founded on religious principles. It was founded on freedom from opression found in england, and yes I am aware a big portion of that was religious opression. But isn't it funny that some 200+ years later we are still opressing people because their sexuality or religion does not coincide with our dreamy christian view of the world? This is why I hate religion. It does nothing but breed feelings of superiority and brings about unabashed, staunch, grotesque, and misguided bigotry. It's not just us gays, but muslims, too. And people wonder why I am an atheist.

privledges are for, by definition, a select group of people, not everyone. everyone, even gays, have the right, not the privledge, of marrying a member of the opposite sex that is not any closer in relation than a second cousin. why not give the right to marry people of the same sex, to enter into that binding legal agreement that allows joint financial considerations, plus some very imprtant moral considerations, like allowing people to be visited in the hospital? And to jointly adopt children?

so, teaching kids not to bully gay kids is wrong, overstepping on some level of a school's requirement to respect and protect all of it's students?

if schools are to teach sex ed, wouldn't it also be prudent (and not ignorant) to teach proper practices in regards to sex, whether homsexual sex or not?

throwing flower petals onto a just married gay couple is teaching something unnerving about gays to children? you mean something like acceptance? do you advocate non acceptance and subsequent school bullying of fine young and gay girls and boys?

an article decrying the arrest of a man opposing so-called homosexual teachings in a school being arresterd when it doesn't say what is being taught adds nothing to your argument. and the next link ads nothing but a story of unfortunate bullying of the same person's son, adds nothing to your arguent.

what is wrong with exposing children to the image of two people in love, regardless of their gender composition? sounds more like a diatribe against love, if you ask me, which is sad, since this world needs more love than it has ever needed before.

as for forcing religious institutions to perform gay marriages, I don't disagree that this is not fair. if a religious institution doesn't want to perform gay marriages, then they shouldn't be forced to, so you aren't going to get an argument from me on that. but I will say for every one church that doesn't want to do it, there is one that is perfectly willing to do it.



Last edited by exl2398; November 4th, 2010 at 11:01 am.
  #108  
Old November 4th, 2010, 2:06 pm
AldeberanBlack  Male.gif AldeberanBlack is offline
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Re: Gay Marriage

Quote:
Judge Walker's own sexual preference and well-known activism is what made his decision biased.
False. This is a smear.

Quote:
Again, I ask, what's the point of voting if it is so easily overturned?
Because voting for other people's equal rights to be denied is unconstitutional.

Quote:
And "separation of church and state" is something often thrown around, and seldom understood--It wasn't instituted to keep religion out of government, it was instituted to keep government out of religion.
False. The "No Religious Test" clause is further proof that the seperation of church and state is also designed to keep religious doctrine out of government.

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You can't take religion out of this country, because it was founded on religious principles.
False. It was founded on Enlightenment principles.

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And of course you must realize, even if it's not your thing, that there are a great many who want to get married to someone of the same sex in a church.
This is a seperate issue entirely.

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Still think schools aren't being required to teach homosexuality and gay marriage with zero regard for parental rights? See here, here, here, here, here, here... Need I go on?
The FOX link was about anti-bullying campaigns. The second link related to Britain, and the other links aren't worthy of a response.

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As for churches required to perform gay marriages, that's on the horizon too, not to mention calls for churches to lose their tax-exempt status if they do not conform to social whims and trends. And this is just the tip of the iceberg. So, not, y'know, "false."
It would be a good iceberg then. Bigotry concealed in religion should not be given special status.

Quote:
I make one statement of opinion and I'm picked apart and called a bigot. Nice to see things haven't changed around here. I'm sorry to have dared challenge popular opinion (at least, that which is popular in this forum--The majority of the American public tends to feel otherwise).
[staff edit]That should rightly never change here. The "appeal to popularity" fallacy does not help your arguments.


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Last edited by Alastor; November 4th, 2010 at 2:49 pm.
  #109  
Old November 4th, 2010, 2:47 pm
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Re: Gay Marriage

Right. Pause. Now.


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