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  #21  
Old July 23rd, 2010, 2:23 pm
Lemongrass  Female.gif Lemongrass is offline
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Re: Gay Marriage

Quote:
Originally Posted by Yoana View Post
The usual reason against it that I hear is that it's "unnatural" and a "deviation" to be gay. When someone points out that plenty of animals engage in same-sex too, so it can't be "unnatural" for humans, they turn around and demand that we're not animals, after all, so why should we compare ourselves to them? So even if you don't have a religious book to cite from, you can still find excuses to be against homosexuality, in nature or a supposed human superiority over nature (simultaneously - the paradox of it should be enough to make them question their convictions, but apparently reason doesn't matter, convictions do.)
I think in cases like this what it really comes down to is each individual deciding how they are going to live their own lives. A religious person, who adheres to a religion where engaging in acts of homosexuality is a sin, is going to stay away from it, if they truly believe that this is a rule put forward to them by God. They shouldn't really care about what other people want to do with their lives, but if they believe that engaging in acts of homosexuality is something God has forbidden, then they won't go down that road, and I don't see why it is a problem that they should think that way.


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  #22  
Old July 23rd, 2010, 2:50 pm
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Re: Gay Marriage

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Originally Posted by Lemongrass View Post
I think in cases like this what it really comes down to is each individual deciding how they are going to live their own lives. A religious person, who adheres to a religion where engaging in acts of homosexuality is a sin, is going to stay away from it, if they truly believe that this is a rule put forward to them by God. They shouldn't really care about what other people want to do with their lives, but if they believe that engaging in acts of homosexuality is something God has forbidden, then they won't go down that road, and I don't see why it is a problem that they should think that way.
I don't see how this is related to my post, which was specifically about non-religious homophobia, but I'll answer anyway. Why it's a problem? Because it's homophobic. In my opinion, this is always a problem. Anyone can excuse anything with religious beliefs, but we don't condone crimes done in keeping with a certain belief, and I think we shouldn't condone homophobic speech on that basis, either. I understand everyone is entitled to whatever believes they may have, but giving expression to those beliefs may be harmful in some situations. That's why hate speech is banned in many countries, and in my opinion homophobic speech qualifies.


  #23  
Old July 23rd, 2010, 5:12 pm
Lemongrass  Female.gif Lemongrass is offline
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Re: Gay Marriage

I must have missed that your post was about non religious homophobia. Also I don't see how what I posted presents as a homophobic view at all. I was saying that some people see it as a wrong thing for they themselves to engage in because they believe it is something God has made forbidden. How is that homophobic? It would be homophobic to then force that standard on everyone else and to feel an aversion towards someone simply because they are homosexual. Having the opinion that it is not something you would do, because you do not believe it is something allowed for you, is not homophobic.


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  #24  
Old July 23rd, 2010, 6:00 pm
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Re: Gay Marriage

I didn't mean what you said was homophobic. I meant attitudes you described in your previous post were homophobic, in my opinion.

If people see it as a wrong thing for themselves and they're heterosexual, then that's lucky for them. If they believe it's wrong but are homosexual, then that's sad and unfair on them, in my opinion, because they repress who they are. I think sexuality is not a choice but something you're born with, so I don;t see engaging or not in homosexual relations as a choice - unless you purposefully choose not to when you feel the desire to.

In my opinion it's homophobic to believe other people shouldn't engage in it either because you (in the general sense) believe it's wrong.


  #25  
Old July 23rd, 2010, 9:04 pm
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Re: Gay Marriage

Quote:
Originally Posted by Yoana View Post
In my opinion it's homophobic to believe other people shouldn't engage in it either because you (in the general sense) believe it's wrong.
So you're in agreement with Lemongrass on this point?:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lemongrass View Post
It would be homophobic to then force that standard on everyone else
Moving back specifically to gay marriage, one thing that's been debated in the UK quite recently is whether Christian denominations and other religious groups that are gay-friendly should be allowed to perform gay marriages/civil partnership ceremonies if they want to. Under the Civil Partnership Act, they were not - civil partnerships had to be strictly secular in nature and performed only in secular venues. However, I think the law has recently been changed allowing it.

However, some Church of England bishops fought this law change tooth and nail. I find that really hard to understand. I can accept that religions shouldn't be forced to perform gay marriages if they feel it's against their beliefs, but I don't understand why anyone would want to stop other religions, who don't think homosexuality is wrong, from performing gay weddings. What's it to do with them?

I think the reason given was that it was the thin end of the wedge and they feared that if other religions were allowed to perform gay marriages, it made it more likely that at some point in the future anti-discrimination laws could be brought in banning religions from discriminating between gay and heterosexual couples. Seems a bit tenuous to me, though.



Last edited by Melaszka; July 23rd, 2010 at 10:39 pm.
  #26  
Old July 25th, 2010, 4:56 pm
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Re: Gay Marriage

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Originally Posted by Lunalovegood2 View Post
what do you think of gay marriage ?
Full marriage is going to be pasted by the UK coalition government
at the moment in the UK same sex couples can have a civil partnership but doesn't give the same rights as marriage the same sex marriage would allow same sex couples have the same right as heterosexual couple have
http://www.edgeftlauderdale.com/inde...sc3=&id=108186
I think it's very good that gay people can get married. Marriage is about love, and love between two people should always be supported.


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  #27  
Old August 4th, 2010, 10:07 pm
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Re: Gay Marriage

So, it looks like Prop 8 has been declared unconstitutional.

According to the article, this is the argument for why Prop 8 is illegal:

Judge strikes down Prop. 8, allows gay marriage in CaliforniaUltimately, the judge concluded that Proposition 8 "fails to advance any rational basis in singling out gay men and lesbians for denial of a marriage license. Indeed, the evidence shows Proposition 8 does nothing more than enshrine in the California Constitution the notion that opposite-sex couples are superior to same-sex couples. … Because Proposition 8 prevents California from fulfilling its constitutional obligation to provide marriages on an equal basis, the court concludes that Proposition 8 is unconstitutional."


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  #28  
Old August 5th, 2010, 1:20 am
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Re: Gay Marriage

Quote:
the notion that opposite-sex couples are superior to same-sex couples.
This is also the concept that should lead the US Supreme Court to rule that banning same sex marriages is also unconstitutional.


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  #29  
Old August 5th, 2010, 2:01 am
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Re: Gay Marriage

Quote:
Originally Posted by Beatifically View Post
I was so excited to hear this. I've been waiting for the results for a while now.

The only sad thing is that it looks like the opposition is trying to appeal.


  #30  
Old August 5th, 2010, 6:58 am
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Re: Gay Marriage

I'm all for gay marriage. As far as I am concerned, marriage should be a celebration of love between two people who love each other. And as long as they have the love, what does it matter what gender they are?


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  #31  
Old August 5th, 2010, 9:03 am
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Re: Gay Marriage

Quote:
Originally Posted by Beatifically View Post
So, it looks like Prop 8 has been declared unconstitutional.

According to the article, this is the argument for why Prop 8 is illegal:

Judge strikes down Prop. 8, allows gay marriage in CaliforniaUltimately, the judge concluded that Proposition 8 "fails to advance any rational basis in singling out gay men and lesbians for denial of a marriage license. Indeed, the evidence shows Proposition 8 does nothing more than enshrine in the California Constitution the notion that opposite-sex couples are superior to same-sex couples. … Because Proposition 8 prevents California from fulfilling its constitutional obligation to provide marriages on an equal basis, the court concludes that Proposition 8 is unconstitutional."


This is excellent news!



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  #32  
Old August 5th, 2010, 11:06 am
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Re: Gay Marriage

So excited Prop 8 has been overturned! That's fantastic news

No doubt it will be appealed (which is sad IMO). The case makes for an interesting read, especially pages 133 onwards.

ETA: My favourite part from the link above: "Because Proposition 8 is unconstitutional under both the
Due Process and Equal Protection Clauses, the court orders entry of
judgment permanently enjoining its enforcement; prohibiting the
official defendants from applying or enforcing Proposition 8 and
directing the official defendants that all persons under their
control or supervision shall not apply or enforce Proposition 8."


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Last edited by Hysteria; August 5th, 2010 at 11:19 am.
  #33  
Old August 5th, 2010, 3:47 pm
Legalese  Female.gif Legalese is offline
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Re: Gay Marriage

This is a victory for civil rights in this country. There is absolutely no reason to ban gay marriage except for moral disapproval of homosexuality. And moral disapproval of some people (even the majority) is an insufficient reason to take away the rights of others to marry who they choose to marry. Let's hope that when it gets up to the Supreme Court that they see it the same way.


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  #34  
Old August 6th, 2010, 12:47 am
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Re: Gay Marriage

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hysteria View Post
The case makes for an interesting read, especially pages 133 onwards.
Reading those last bits, I now have to say that Judge Vaughn Walker is officially made of Awesome.


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  #35  
Old August 7th, 2010, 7:21 am
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Re: Gay Marriage

Quote:
Originally Posted by AldeberanBlack View Post
This is also the concept that should lead the US Supreme Court to rule that banning same sex marriages is also unconstitutional.
It appears that it will eventually get to the Supreme Court. I hope that they have the same opinion. If someone frowns upon homosexuality because of their religions and/or personal beliefs, I understand, but there isn't a good enough legal reason for banning gay marriages, IMO.

It's 2010 - about time for the U.S. to make gay marriages legal nationwide.


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  #36  
Old August 10th, 2010, 3:15 pm
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Re: Gay Marriage

I am so glad to read the posts in these thread, so supportive! I too completely support gay marriage, as I believe marriage is a civil institution and not a religious one. I completely understand if religions choose not to marry same sex partners, as I am a throughly spiritual but non religious person this does not affect me whatsoever. I do find interesting what Melazka pointed out in regards to the motifs behind certain religions' positions.

What I find a bit hypocritical from our governments ('though the one thing I might respect from the one ruling my country at the moment is their motion to allow gay marriage - so happy for my gay friends ) is that they insist in saying that it is an institution arising from the union of a man and a woman, and that it has been so historically, when multiple partner marriages are not currently allowed and by that logic they should also plausible...

I am really proud of the Argentinian people. Hopefully more countries will join the ones that have changed their laws and truly provide equal rights to all.

I hope Venezuela does so, 'though granted civil rights are not this country's "thing" and the catholic church has tremendous power over the people here.


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  #37  
Old August 10th, 2010, 4:27 pm
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Re: Gay Marriage

I can marry who I fall in love with, and everyone else should be able to as well. Equal rights for all, I say!


  #38  
Old August 10th, 2010, 10:30 pm
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Re: Gay Marriage

Unfortunately, some don't see it that way, ActingDude. It's going to take a few more years before people get it through their heads that they shouldn't prevent someone else from marrying just because they don't like the idea of Homosexuals marrying. I'm with you, if I can marry the girl I love, then they can marry whomever they love.

-Tibbetts


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  #39  
Old August 10th, 2010, 11:44 pm
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Re: Gay Marriage

This thread makes me very happy. I am a woman who is in love with a woman and we are planning to get married. I say 'married' because I am from New Zealand where a Civil Union gives you the same rights as a marraige, so I see no point in using a different word to describe it.

The thing that we are finding most difficult is family support. My Father is still coming to terms, he hasn't spoken with me since I came out a few years back and My Partners Mother is claiming that she can't accept it due to her Catholic lifestyle. When I am around my Mother-in-law-to-be, she will regard me as her daughters 'Friend' and has stated that if we are to 'Publically awknowledge' our relationship (get married) then she won't be attending. What really gets me about this whole situation is that another of my partners relatives is a Catholic Nun and has no issue whatsoever.

We were planning on moving to Australia in the future, but at the moment that idea has been thrown out the window, Maybe Argentina is the way to go!


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  #40  
Old August 11th, 2010, 3:44 pm
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Re: Gay Marriage

mollywobbles, congratulations. I am so sorry that your families are not giving you the support you deserve. I hope they come around in time.


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