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UK Politics v2.



View Poll Results: Which party will get your vote?
Conservatives 4 23.53%
Labour 4 23.53%
Liberal Democrats 9 52.94%
Green Party 0 0%
UKIP 0 0%
Regional (Scottish, N. Ire, Welsh Parties) 0 0%
Voters: 17. You may not vote on this poll

 
 
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  #61  
Old April 17th, 2010, 10:01 am
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Re: United Kingdom Election 2010

That's a great idea!
Noit entirely feasible in real life - but I'd LOVE them do that!


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  #62  
Old April 17th, 2010, 10:10 am
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Re: United Kingdom Election 2010

You could have Blair and Major in the Royal Box heckling like Stadler and Waldorf.

But we digress.


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  #63  
Old April 17th, 2010, 1:38 pm
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Re: United Kingdom Election 2010

Or perhaps Portillo for the whine-factor.

Cameron is articulating for a decisive majority (bookies currently put him as winning a slim majority of 4), saying that with a hung parliament MPs will broadly act entirely in self-interest since the whipped discipline of a majority will be lost in a coalition. This is of course what we have had for the last 13 years.


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  #64  
Old April 17th, 2010, 3:01 pm
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Re: United Kingdom Election 2010

Both Labour and Conservatives are attacking the Lib Dems over their policy of not replacing Trident. Personally I think that not spending £100 billion on a system that we can't use without American permission and in any event is useless against any foreseeable threat is a great idea. We would be foolish (if honourable) to unilaterally get rid of nuclear weapons but this out of date system is not needed.


  #65  
Old April 17th, 2010, 4:30 pm
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Re: United Kingdom Election 2010

I'd like the major parties to explain who exactly our nuclear arsenal protects us from, and who exactly would be the target for a British nuclear attack.


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  #66  
Old April 17th, 2010, 6:43 pm
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Re: United Kingdom Election 2010

We do need a nuclear detterent of some kind, but something other than Trident.

AldeberanBlack - There is no easy answer to that question. Other than that if Iran manages to get nuclear weapons then they are likely to point them towards us if they can't hit North America with them. We are the little satan in the eyes of the Iranian regieme after all.


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  #67  
Old April 17th, 2010, 7:50 pm
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Re: United Kingdom Election 2010

I think the Iran scenario is a red herring. I just don't think there's any risk of Iran attacking the United Kingdom. The biggest risk to our security comes from terrorism. Guys carrying backpacks and so forth. Nuclear weapons don't dissuade them.


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  #68  
Old April 18th, 2010, 7:53 am
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Re: United Kingdom Election 2010

I think the argument for keeping some sort of nuclear weapons is that the future is by definition completely unknown. (It also secures a seat at discussions on nuclear disarmament) But a weapons system that allows us to destroy Moscow or St Petersburg (providing the pentagon agrees) is a complete waste of money

The current polls are suggesting Labour will get the largest number of seats despite being third in the popular vote. I hope we get electoral reform as a result - I have never been represented in Parliament despite voting in every election I have been able


  #69  
Old April 18th, 2010, 8:28 am
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Re: United Kingdom Election 2010

Quote:
Originally Posted by AldeberanBlack View Post
I'd like the major parties to explain who exactly our nuclear arsenal protects us from, and who exactly would be the target for a British nuclear attack.
France.

There was a rare bit of candour from the leader of UKIP who said that Britain was "skint".

It should be towards the end of this which includes the debate slap-o-meter


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Last edited by Wab; April 18th, 2010 at 8:45 am.
  #70  
Old April 18th, 2010, 1:31 pm
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Re: United Kingdom Election 2010

Quote:
Both Labour and Conservatives are attacking the Lib Dems over their policy of not replacing Trident. Personally I think that not spending £100 billion on a system that we can't use without American permission and in any event is useless against any foreseeable threat is a great idea. We would be foolish (if honourable) to unilaterally get rid of nuclear weapons but this out of date system is not needed.
The only way to have that is to develop our own launch vehicle. The warheads are British, but the Trident D-5 II launch system is American. Like Polaris, they were bought to be cheaper to the taxpayer. The various treaties & MoUs signed by successive governments gives Britain an entirely independent nuclear deterrent, so on paper we have control over how we use our WMDs. However, the political map is far different today than it was after WWII. It wouldn’t be a case of asking for America’s permission, it would be case of asking all our allies for permission. Suffice to say, the ability to launch a counter nuclear attack in this day and age is incredibly difficult due to the vast number of states already in possession of such weapons. You will sign away humanity to the vast nothingness that follows any succession of nuclear strikes. You think the volcanic ash is a problem, a cloud of nuclear fallout from just two Nuclear weapons will probably give millions of us a long headache.

Interestingly, as a bit of a side-bar, during the early years of Nuclear testing, the British didn't have the funds the Americans did for successive Nuclear testing, so our scientists worked on many theoretical designs for warheads, a lot of which the Americans picked up and adapted into their own designs when our cross-Atlantic cooperation got underway.

As for replacing Trident. Ugh... What with? Clegg's numbers though appear to be based on a Greenpeace report (PDF warning). I haven't read it in full yet.

The point about replacing Trident is far more significant than many people in politics seem to appreciate, I believe. Removing our Nuclear deterrent would require a complete fundamental change in foreign policy, in order to reduce the threats against Britain. We'd have to withdraw from our frontline role and abandon a lot of our pre-existing policies, offering only tertiary roles in conflicts that occur. There's also the sudden and significant loss of business and skills. Our manufacturing industry isn't great, but when it comes to military design, we are equal to, if not great than America as we tend to innovate and theorise more. The cost to the economy would be huge. Any replacement would have to match that investment, so as to safeguard jobs and skills for the generations to come. A fine example of this occurring is in the new Astute class of submarines. They are late and overspent because a lot of the skills needed to work on design & production were lost in the years of dithering by successive governments over whether to commit or not.

I'm against land-base nuclear weapons. We don't have the land mass of the US or Russia to host such a system either secretly or non-controversially. I think just about anyone would pitch a fit knowing their back garden overlooked a silo or mobile launch system. In the event of an attack on our soil, such systems would be attacked first & foremost. We'd lose our means to retaliate accordingly. Having a submarine-based system keeps our weapons away from danger for the most part (sea navigation and the occasional bump with another sub notwithstanding).

If you take a look at the US, Russia, China, France & emerging powers such as India & Pakistan, all invest in Submarine systems as the best means of keeping their deterrents mobile and unseen.

All that said, I thought the debates were dull, but what really caught Labour and the Tories out was their devaluing of the debates and their leaders performances beforehand against Clegg's ability to pitch himself perfectly as the outsider with nothing to lose with being honest. He didn't need to perform amazingly to get the point across about the Tories & Labour being tried & tested parties exchanging keys every few years with the same results for the people. I doubt the Lib Dems will gain a 100 seats from this, but they'll achieve enough for a Labour-led hung parliament I believe.


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  #71  
Old April 18th, 2010, 4:46 pm
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Re: United Kingdom Election 2010

Quote:
Originally Posted by AldeberanBlack View Post
I think the Iran scenario is a red herring. I just don't think there's any risk of Iran attacking the United Kingdom. The biggest risk to our security comes from terrorism. Guys carrying backpacks and so forth. Nuclear weapons don't dissuade them.
You are aware that Iran has provided weapons and training to the likes of Hezbollah ? Iran with a nuclear weapon will change the balance of power in the region (regardless of Israel's nuclear weapons), as it will probably spark an arms race in the Middle East.
Iran could attack the UK using the methods you've stated above. Basically Iran should not be discounted out of hand so easily.

Osama Bin Laden made it quite clear in the years before 9/11 that it was his Islamic duty to get hold of a Nuclear weapon. So there is a threat of a potentional terrorist attack using a nuclear weapon, most likely a dirty bomb.

We need a Nuclear deterrent, I'm just not certain that trident is the way go, but it will probably be the only option. Then again this could all be moot as the UK could go bankrupt before 2015.


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  #72  
Old April 18th, 2010, 7:00 pm
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Re: United Kingdom Election 2010

Quote:
You are aware that Iran has provided weapons and training to the likes of Hezbollah ? Iran with a nuclear weapon will change the balance of power in the region (regardless of Israel's nuclear weapons), as it will probably spark an arms race in the Middle East.
Iran could attack the UK using the methods you've stated above. Basically Iran should not be discounted out of hand so easily. Osama Bin Laden made it quite clear in the years before 9/11 that it was his Islamic duty to get hold of a Nuclear weapon. So there is a threat of a potentional terrorist attack using a nuclear weapon, most likely a dirty bomb.
I just don't believe it. I don't think it's realistic that Iran are going to nuke Britain, and thus doom themselves too with reprisals. As for Osama Bin Laden and other terrorists, I don't think they are dissuaded by a nation having nuclear weapons. America has nuclear weapons and it didn't deter Al Qaeda from attacking them on September 11th with spectacular boldness.


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Last edited by AldeberanBlack; April 18th, 2010 at 7:02 pm.
  #73  
Old April 18th, 2010, 8:08 pm
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Re: United Kingdom Election 2010

The Telegraph seems to be going into overdrive trying to discredit Nick Clegg and suggest that his popularity surge is just a temporary blip, which is a sure sign that the right are seriously rattled.

Mind you, this scrutiny of some of Clegg's debate claims is a bit embarrassing:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/elec...cts-wrong.html


  #74  
Old April 18th, 2010, 10:54 pm
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Re: United Kingdom Election 2010

Here's an interesting Yougov poll on voting intention -
Quote:
* Conservative 32%
* Labour 26%
* Liberal Democrat 33%
* Others 8%
http://today.yougov.co.uk/politics/l...ntion-18-april
There is an idea floating out there that a vote for the Liberal Democrats is a vote for Electoral reform. As i think we can be pretty sure that electoral reform will be the Lib Dem price to form a Government with one of the other parties.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Melaszka View Post
The Telegraph seems to be going into overdrive trying to discredit Nick Clegg and suggest that his popularity surge is just a temporary blip, which is a sure sign that the right are seriously rattled.

Mind you, this scrutiny of some of Clegg's debate claims is a bit embarrassing:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/elec...cts-wrong.html
Well I'm not surprised tbh. The Press Barons seemingly want a Tory victory so they will be going all out to get one. Though i think most people will see through it, especially if Clegg continues to perform well in the remaining 2 debates. It'll be interesting to see how Sky News handles the second debate and how the BBC handles the last one.


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Last edited by Kevin; April 18th, 2010 at 10:57 pm.
  #75  
Old April 18th, 2010, 11:04 pm
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Re: United Kingdom Election 2010

woah! LibDems leading?

Anyway - I happen to share a flat with a (the?) leading expert on the process of electoral reform, particularly nthe factors that convince a country/government/voting public to push for reform (he's been studying such processes in dozens of countries during the last five decades or so). Looking at all the factors in the UK, he is by now pretty certain that electoral reform will happen.

Particularly, obviously, if Labour comes out third in terms of votes cast, and still gets the largest number of seats - which is possible.


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  #76  
Old April 19th, 2010, 3:25 am
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Re: United Kingdom Election 2010

It's incredible to see that after just one debate, the Lib Dems according to that poll are leading.

Well done Clegg. Keep it up.


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  #77  
Old April 19th, 2010, 3:35 am
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Re: United Kingdom Election 2010

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kevin View Post
You are aware that Iran has provided weapons and training to the likes of Hezbollah ?
You are aware that every member of the nuclear club has provided arms and training to similar terrorist groups?

Quote:
Originally Posted by AldeberanBlack View Post
It's incredible to see that after just one debate, the Lib Dems according to that poll are leading.

Well done Clegg. Keep it up.
Now a LD led hung Parliament would be one to see. And interesting to see what the other parties would trade in order to be the coalition partner.


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  #78  
Old April 19th, 2010, 7:08 am
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Re: United Kingdom Election 2010

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Originally Posted by Wab View Post
Now a LD led hung Parliament would be one to see. And interesting to see what the other parties would trade in order to be the coalition partner.
Their souls for starters


  #79  
Old April 19th, 2010, 7:35 am
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Re: United Kingdom Election 2010

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Their souls for starters
Wait, they still have them?


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  #80  
Old April 19th, 2010, 8:00 am
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Re: United Kingdom Election 2010

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Originally Posted by Morgoth View Post
Wait, they still have them?
Of course - divided into lots of little bits and hidden all over the place.


 
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