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UK Politics v2.



View Poll Results: Which party will get your vote?
Conservatives 4 23.53%
Labour 4 23.53%
Liberal Democrats 9 52.94%
Green Party 0 0%
UKIP 0 0%
Regional (Scottish, N. Ire, Welsh Parties) 0 0%
Voters: 17. You may not vote on this poll

 
 
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  #41  
Old April 15th, 2010, 8:09 pm
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Re: United Kingdom Election 2010

Quote:
Originally Posted by Overdose View Post
There is and always has been the perfect third party for us fence-sitters.

www.loonyparty.com/

Even after the death of the noble Screaming Lord, the Loonies march ever on.
Their manifesto proposals rock. My favourite:

Quote:
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It is proposed that, before the beginning of exams, the exam board will select a certain obscure phrase which will be kept secret. If any pupil inadvertently writes this phrase in any exam,he/she will automaticaly receive straight A* grades, and a free teddy.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Overdose View Post
Oh wow. Though to be fair, I think that particular quiz (as with all quizzes) can hardly bring in much of the nuances of policy. Obviously it identifies me pretty clearly as either a moderate conservative or the "new" in new Labour, but I agree with the Liberals a lot more than the quiz states, especially on civil liberties and crime.

I've said it before but I will strongly consider voting against the Conservatives this election. I thought it was a mistake to leave the EPP, despite holding that particular pan-European group in relatively low esteem. I support what I deem to be a realistic economic plan, and if that has to include fiscal stimulus then good. Of course I think that Brown was irresponsible in his use of public money and I despise a lot of topdown management that a tired Labour government has brought in but again, I attribute much of that to the 'tired' aspect.

Oh, plus I grew up in a single parent family and much of that Rowling article does hit the nail on the head. I'm optimistic about people, which is why I generally support priviate initiative, and my career has moved me into a position to support free trade as far as possible. What I cannot stand is the snide, unpleasant demonising of certain sections of society that for some reason seems to come so naturally to so many.
If all Conservatives were like you, I'd be a lot happier about the prospect of a Tory government.


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  #42  
Old April 15th, 2010, 10:51 pm
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Re: United Kingdom Election 2010

Quote:
Originally Posted by Overdose View Post
There is and always has been the perfect third party for us fence-sitters.

www.loonyparty.com/

Even after the death of the noble Screaming Lord, the Loonies march ever on.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Melaszka View Post
If all Conservatives were like you, I'd be a lot happier about the prospect of a Tory government.





Here are my results:

Green Party: 73%
Liberal Democrats: 67%
Plaid Cymru: 61%
Labour Party: 61%
Conservative Party: 27%


I guess I am not very realistic.

Not voting Green, though. I used to in Austria, where the Greens got a great bunch of a handful of MPs to move some important issues. It's pointless to do that in the UK, though.

I guess it's obvious that I won't vote COnservative.

I am shocked that I get such high scores for Plaid. I suppose they have policies which agree with mine - but I am totally opposed t their one single issue obsession, and I am even unhappy with Welsh devolution as it is. So that Plaid score is totally wrong.


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  #43  
Old April 16th, 2010, 12:03 am
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Re: United Kingdom Election 2010

I watched the debate, or at least as much of it as I could stand, before I switched to "Spaceballs"

The winner I think was Nick Clegg, solely because now, more people know that he actually exists.


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  #44  
Old April 16th, 2010, 12:16 am
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Re: United Kingdom Election 2010

It was pretty snooze-inducing.

For me Nick Cleg was the only reason to continue watching. He was pretty good.

All three looked airbrushed, and the whole thing was even more artifical than US presidential debates....


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  #45  
Old April 16th, 2010, 12:17 am
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Re: United Kingdom Election 2010

I thought Gordon Brown was really disappointing, seemed very ill at ease through most of it, although he did really perk up when he talked about the economy - for the first time in the debate, I thought he sounded utterly genuine, and he convinced me that continuing the stimulus is the right thing (or, at least, that he honestly and passionately believes it is). I also think he had too many obviously scripted lines which he kept shoehorning in and jokes that didn't work. And it was a major error to keep being nasty to David Cameron - made him look shallow and weak. I know, though, that, as the incumbent, he had the most difficult job of any of them, because whatever policies he promised he'd implement, it begged the question "Well, why haven't you already done that? You've had 13 years...". I feel really sorry for him, because I think he's a better PM than he comes across as, but he just doesn't communicate well.

I thought Cameron was very slick, probably the best performer of all of them, although I hated most of his policies. It was clever of him to play Mr Nice Guy and concede that Labour had some good policies - made him look reasonable, relaxed and stronger.

Nick Clegg did well, although he tried to be too smooth, overusing the questioners' names etc, I think (my Dad's verdict - "That young chap looks a bit too much like a used car salesman"!). Put the policies across quite well and picked up on some of the others' obvious inconsistencies.

It was annoying that so many of the questions got ignored or twisted onto the prepared spiel by all the candidates. The boy with the skull cap who asked about education, in particular, I felt was short-changed - that they all missed the point he was making about education being too target-driven and results-fixated. They all started banging on about how they would improve results, when I felt he was saying that it's not about results, it's about educating the whole person and interesting them in knowledge (although, in fairness, Cameron picked up on that a bit). And the nurse, as well - I didn't think the specifics of her question got addressed.

I also didn't like the set design - it made them look like they were taking part in a cheap daytime gameshow.


  #46  
Old April 16th, 2010, 12:33 am
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Re: United Kingdom Election 2010

I thought Brown played well in the debates, though to be fair I was mainly listening to the economy question.

Immigration as usual was the standard populist nonsense from everyone. I wish someone would actually just say, "Hey, migration is great for the workforce and the economy. It has significantly dropped in the last few years and that is a bad bad thing indeed."

But yes, Gordon impressed me. I'm not big on his case for micro-management but he made some solid points on stimulus. Whilst I'm not sure that he understands that throwing money at a problem does not make it better and vice versa does not make it worse I think, given stock market interests etc I'd trust him for a few more years.

Cameron I feel did poorly on a lot of the issues. I think he failed to articulate his policies and precisely how his 'big society' meme would work.

Clegg was alright I guess.

The polls by the way are giving Clegg a far-and-away victory. The Sky poll is the only one which has Cameron ahead whilst Brown is pretty consistently last except UGov which puts him second. I think that's slightly unfair, but then I really wasn't bothered about the tone or the way that they argued, more how they articulated their policies.

If the Orange-Book liberals (Clegg and Hume are both of this faction), those who are more of the classic liberal tradition can work on building a coalition then I could definitely see them in government.

David Willetts, whom I admire greatly and arguably the forefather of civic conservatism (the community activist gumph that I'm pretty strongly in favour of), has written an extremely interesting book, the premise of which is that the real divide in Britain is not class, but age. Definitely worth a look at this economist review.

http://www.economist.com/culture/dis...ry_id=15495760


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  #47  
Old April 16th, 2010, 12:44 am
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Re: United Kingdom Election 2010

Quote:
Originally Posted by Overdose View Post
The polls by the way are giving Clegg a far-and-away victory. The Sky poll is the only one which has Cameron ahead whilst Brown is pretty consistently last except UGov which puts him second. I think that's slightly unfair, but then I really wasn't bothered about the tone or the way that they argued, more how they articulated their policies.
The general vibe over at the Guardian seems to be Brown 1st, Clegg 2nd, Cameron 3rd, but then Guardian readers would say that.

I think maybe I was too easily impressed by Cameron. (e.g. I missed his monstrous clanger about us being in danger of being nuked by China) Also, not a good move to lecture Clegg about promising tax cuts for those under 10,000 being unrealistic with a massive deficit when he's promising tax cuts for millionaires.



Last edited by Melaszka; April 16th, 2010 at 12:55 am.
  #48  
Old April 16th, 2010, 1:06 am
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Re: United Kingdom Election 2010

Yeah I agree, though again the thing with the below 10'000 income is that they do gain most of their taxes back through credits etc. I'm also not a big fan of his keynote Trident policy which he kept touting.

Though, actually speaking of the Guardian, I'm getting more and more certain that they might take the plunge and endorse the Liberals. Did you see their recent editorial on Nick Clegg?

Sorry, I should say the Liberal Democrats, I would absolutely love it if they were Liberals with less of the SDP, perhaps why I warm to Clegg. Or perhaps he was just good.


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  #49  
Old April 16th, 2010, 1:25 am
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Re: United Kingdom Election 2010

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Yeah I agree, though again the thing with the below 10'000 income is that they do gain most of their taxes back through credits etc.
Yeah, but that's the point - it's a bad idea because it's repetitious and unnecessary, not for the reasons Cameron gave (in fact, he said that in an ideal world, he'd remove tax for them, too)

Quote:
Though, actually speaking of the Guardian, I'm getting more and more certain that they might take the plunge and endorse the Liberals. Did you see their recent editorial on Nick Clegg?
No, but I'm also generally getting the vibe that they're moving their allegiance towards the LibDems.


  #50  
Old April 16th, 2010, 1:47 am
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Re: United Kingdom Election 2010

Type "I Agree" into Google search and it's first drop-down suggestion is 'I Agree With Nick'.

Get the feeling this is going to become a catchphrase.


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  #51  
Old April 16th, 2010, 4:23 am
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Re: United Kingdom Election 2010

Epic Nick was epic!


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  #52  
Old April 16th, 2010, 1:00 pm
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Re: United Kingdom Election 2010

Well I'm no closer to an actual decision. I thought at one point that Nick Clegg didn't actually have to say anything, he could just keep letting the other two lay into each and come out looking better than the pair of them together!

I'm hoping the other two debates are going to be a bit more disciplined, for want of a better word, it didn't feel like Alistair Steward had much control and I found the talking over each other a bit distracting. At times it felt more like Prime Minister's questions than a debate.


  #53  
Old April 16th, 2010, 3:51 pm
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Re: United Kingdom Election 2010

I think what's needed is for the moderator to ask follow up questions as they do in the US presidential debates. Otherwise they won't answer questions, just go into electioneering mode.

David Cameron summed up his overall performance for the last few months in that debate in one fell swoop i.e. Slick but no Killer blow against Brown due to his reluctance to come across as the Eton and Oxford Educated Politician that he is by going on the attack, out of fear that it will turn the electorate off.

Brown did as well as i expected him to, solid but nothing to change the public perception of him.

Nick Clegg was pretty awesome (aside from trident), at least he was trying to be honest and not trotting out the usual dividing lines between the parties. He should do well in the remaining debates.
Brown is attempting to build bridges with his "I agree with Nick" lines, so i expect to see more of the same from him (he needs to drop the jokes, Tony Blair would have pulled them off but not Brown).
So the pressure is really on David Cameron to perform, instead of hanging back being slick and trying not to upset people. That's the crux of the issue i think, the Tories are so nervous about not putting a foot wrong that they are harming themselves in being too timid. Overall not a bad start to the debates, but as i said earlier for these debates to be worthwhile exercises follow up questions have to be asked. Otherwise it's pointless, as I'd rather watch PMQ's. They are least more lively.


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  #54  
Old April 16th, 2010, 4:28 pm
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Re: United Kingdom Election 2010

I suspect the Tories are now going to turn their guns onto Clegg. If they are to get anywhere near a majority they have to take back Lib Dem seats in SW London and Cornwall - The most recent opinion polls (after the debate) suggest they are not going to be able to do it. Providing Clegg keeps his nerve we may be about to see a dramatic change in our politics.


  #55  
Old April 16th, 2010, 5:17 pm
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Re: United Kingdom Election 2010

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he needs to drop the jokes, Tony Blair would have pulled them off but not Brown)
If I were him, I'd sack the spin doctors, stop doing what media analysts and body language coaches tell him to and just be himself. The few moments where I felt he was being himself and being honest last night (when he talked about the economy and attacked the Tories' past record on public services) were, IMO, definitely the strongest bits. The joke attempts/anecdotes about his father's youth club etc just made me cringe.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mundungus Fletc View Post
I suspect the Tories are now going to turn their guns onto Clegg. If they are to get anywhere near a majority they have to take back Lib Dem seats in SW London and Cornwall - The most recent opinion polls (after the debate) suggest they are not going to be able to do it. Providing Clegg keeps his nerve we may be about to see a dramatic change in our politics.
It could be exciting. Then again, as Nick Robinson pointed out on the news a couple of weeks ago, whatever happens, this election is going to be pretty dramatic - if Brown manages to win, it will be the comeback of the century; if Cameron wins, it will mean there's been a landslide to the right and his party will be back in power for the first time in 13 years; if there's a hung parliament, it will be something that hasn't been seen for a generation.


  #56  
Old April 16th, 2010, 6:16 pm
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Re: United Kingdom Election 2010

Quote:
I thought at one point that Nick Clegg didn't actually have to say anything, he could just keep letting the other two lay into each and come out looking better than the pair of them together!
That was the advantage he had. With Labour being in power since 1997 and the Tories holding power between 1979 and 1997, the Lib Dem leader always has the advantage of appearing fresh, especially now with a younger leader. He can let Cameron and Brown argue and then eventually turn to the camera, laugh and say "can you believe these guys? I mean seriously...you want more of this?"


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  #57  
Old April 16th, 2010, 9:16 pm
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Re: United Kingdom Election 2010

I really never got what was so bad with good old Menzies. He might have looked old but he was only in his 60s, and most importantly, the guy used to be a world champion sprinter (in fact his nickname in the 60s was 'the fastest white man on earth'), I imagine he was pretty fit.

But Conservative strategy has always been to take on the Liberals and etch away seats from them. They are an easy target having a generally affluent base and a lot of silly policies. Cameron as a force of localist conservatism as opposed to the centralists of the 80s should have been ideally placed to take them on. There are still too many heartlands of Labour support that will never vote Conservative.

On the other hand, the resurgence of the SDP in the 80s did little but spread the anti-Tory vote and bring on a big fat majority for Thatcher. I'm not saying it'll be the same. In 1983 Thatcher was extremely popular and had to overturn a far smaller amount of seats, but certainly it is something to think about.


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  #58  
Old April 16th, 2010, 10:29 pm
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Re: United Kingdom Election 2010

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On the other hand, the resurgence of the SDP in the 80s did little but spread the anti-Tory vote and bring on a big fat majority for Thatcher. I'm not saying it'll be the same. In 1983 Thatcher was extremely popular and had to overturn a far smaller amount of seats, but certainly it is something to think about.
I think this will be the first election in a very long time that won't
follow the usual rules of what's come before in recent times. While it's possible that Cameron could overhaul the Lib Dems, it still wouldn't be enough for a working majority of the kind Blair and Thatcher enjoyed even when they were very unpopular.

If Clegg continues to perform well, then i think this could be the election where the Lib Dems come of age. Which will be a good thing for Democracy.
I do however think we may well end up with a hung parliament or a minority Tory Government. It would be a miracle if Labour wins.
The Liberal Democrats winning outright would be a major shock, but given history not that out of the ordinary.


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  #59  
Old April 16th, 2010, 11:34 pm
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Re: United Kingdom Election 2010

Well, if the LibDems get a strong result that is likely to give them a chance to hold the balance of power. Their biggest bargaining demand will be electoral reform. Which *would* be a huge change in UK politics.

This scenario is now no longer merely academic.


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  #60  
Old April 17th, 2010, 12:36 am
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Re: United Kingdom Election 2010

When the Lib-Dems have to decide who to coalition with, they should do that live on ITV as well, in an "X Factor" style show featuring a panel of Lib-Dem honchos and Tory and Labour bigwigs appealing for their support, with the reunion of Take That and Robbie Williams as special musical guests.


It would be quite a show.


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