Gender: Roles, Stereotypes, Discrimination Version 2

[Tenshi]

Originally Posted by Melaszka

I think it possibly depends on social context. Amongst middle-class professionals, perhaps women are accepted more for their own worth. I know I get a lot of commiserating comments from my working-class family and neighbours about how "sad" it is that I'm "not settled yet" (how I hate that expression!). I remember when I went to my sister's wedding, I had just graduated with first-class honours, gone backpacking around Europe and was considering different exciting careers. None of my extended family thought this was the least bit interesting or worthy of comment - all they wanted to talk about is whether I had a boyfriend or not.

yeah I can totally relate to this. Just because my former school mates having 2 kids at the age of 18 then I don't need to have some as well. But still people ask you if your married and have kids already.

Actually that's what I'm doiing now. Backpacking, living, enjoying my life. But people still keep bothering about if I found a hubby during travelling and stuff. It gets annoying.

Also, an interesting, amusing and at times surreal discussion of how children's toy and clothes manufacturers seem to be trying to enforce gender boundaries in an extreme and bizarre way:

http://www.thefword.org.uk/blog/2010...a#comment54828

Oh please, pink is awesome. When it's looking good on them, then I have no problems putting boys into those pink clothes. Even if they turn gay later (what I guess most people's fear is). Same like I will put girls into guys clothes (yes I know that's more accepted).

I rememeber when we weren't allow to tell my cousin that he's actually wearing "girl shoes" (which didn't look girly at all but never mind). He'd throw a tantrum if he found out.

Originally Posted by Voldemorts8thHorcrux

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XYNymvtbWw4

My friend showed me this a few days ago, it's of a tv show called wife swap and this episode was about two families, one who's obsessed with making their daughter beautiful and the other is ultra feminist and they homeschool their daughters to be strong and independent. It's an hour long but it was pretty interesting, even if it was probably a bit exaggerated.

I actually watched that episode on TV and soon it was clear for which girl I felt more sorry for. The peagant (sp?) one. That is not a life and i'd sue those parents for turning their kids into something like this, a puppet.

Hmm that reminds me. Wanted to start a thread about Pageants (arrg no idea how to spell it) Parents.

[Hysteria]

Originally Posted by Tenshi

yeah I can totally relate to this. Just because my former school mates having 2 kids at the age of 18 then I don't need to have some as well. But still people ask you if your married and have kids already.
Actually that's what I'm doiing now. Backpacking, living, enjoying my life. But people still keep bothering about if I found a hubby during travelling and stuff. It gets annoying.

I think this goes both ways too. My boyfriend is 28 this year and all his friends are married or getting married this year. We've been together for a few years and his friends and their families are asking us why we're not engaged/when we're getting married. I'm turning 20 the same week he turns 28. It's like it doesn't matter that I'm too young (IMO) to get married, just becuase he's at "marrying age" it doesn't matter, it's what society wants to happen. I feel so sorry for him sometimes. The pressure he's under is horrible.

Oh please, pink is awesome. When it's looking good on them, then I have no problems putting boys into those pink clothes. Even if they turn gay later (what I guess most people's fear is). Same like I will put girls into guys clothes (yes I know that's more accepted).

I agree. Back in the day didn't pink used to be the 'boys' colour' and blue the 'girls' colour' anyway?

[Mad_Druid]

Originally Posted by Hysteria

I agree. Back in the day didn't pink used to be the 'boys' colour' and blue the 'girls' colour' anyway?

I've read that before, too. I think that it changed around during the late 1800s/early 1900s.

[TreacleTartlet]

Here's an intersting article on pink for girls.


http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/magazine/7817496.stm

[Voldemorts8thHorcrux]

Originally Posted by Tenshi

I actually watched that episode on TV and soon it was clear for which girl I felt more sorry for. The peagant (sp?) one. That is not a life and i'd sue those parents for turning their kids into something like this, a puppet.

Hmm that reminds me. Wanted to start a thread about Pageants (arrg no idea how to spell it) Parents.

I think it's spelled pageant (according to spell check anyways), and I feel so bad for the kids of pageant parents. I watched an episode of something about that, I'm not even sure what the show's name was, on TLC. It was about a pageant for really young girls, I think around the age of 5, dressing up in dresses and having tons of make up on and all that and it made me rather sick to see what was happening. After a few minutes, I couldn't even find the kids cute or pretty and I really felt a bit disgusted because it was obvious that for some of them, their parents forced them to do it and some were crying about how they didn't want to go onstage and perform anymore.

[Melaszka]

Originally Posted by Hysteria

I think this goes both ways too. My boyfriend is 28 this year and all his friends are married or getting married this year. We've been together for a few years and his friends and their families are asking us why we're not engaged/when we're getting married. I'm turning 20 the same week he turns 28. It's like it doesn't matter that I'm too young (IMO) to get married, just becuase he's at "marrying age" it doesn't matter, it's what society wants to happen. I feel so sorry for him sometimes. The pressure he's under is horrible.

I agree that men are under that pressure, too, but I still think they get it slightly less than women and at a later age. Still, it must be horrible for you two to be harangued like this. The everybody-should-settle-down-get-married-and-have-a-mortgage culture drives me mental, but that's probably a subject for another thread.

Originally Posted by TreacleTartlet

Here's an intersting article on pink for girls.


http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/magazine/7817496.stm

Very interesting. I don't get too wound up by pink - judging by my nieces, girls only go through a short phase on pink and then spend years being mortified that they could ever have possibly liked a colour which they now think is so naff and uncool. I don't think that, in itself, it scars girls for life.

I do worry though about teaching girls from a very young age that they are a totally different species to boys and socialising them from a very young age to value themselves primarily on their appearance. I don't know how that scientist can possibly say that environment has no effect on children.

The one that shocked me was the shop (mentioned in the article I posted) that labelled a doctor dressing-up outfit as for boys and a nurse's outfit for girls. I don't think the shop was in on some deliberate patriarchal conspiracy to push girls into lower-paid jobs - it's possibly just that they thought the doctor's costume was dowdier outfit and thus not pretty or flash enough for pink-obsessed girl, but it sends out a terrible message.

[Hysteria]

Originally Posted by Melaszka

I agree that men are under that pressure, too, but I still think they get it slightly less than women and at a later age. Still, it must be horrible for you two to be harangued like this. The everybody-should-settle-down-get-married-and-have-a-mortgage culture drives me mental, but that's probably a subject for another thread.

Oh yes I'm sure it is much worse for women most of the time, but nobody had mentioned it could be hard on men yet

I do worry though about teaching girls from a very young age that they are a totally different species to boys and socialising them from a very young age to value themselves primarily on their appearance. I don't know how that scientist can possibly say that environment has no effect on children.

Ugh that's everywhere, isn't it? I went to an all girls' school until high school and looking back on it now there was a lot of conditioning us to be 'proper' girls. Once a year we'd have a 'fun day' with our brother school (all boys) in which we'd go bowling or do something like that. They expected us to all act normally with each other after spending all year keeping us separated as if we are a different species and have nothing in common. I'm pretty anti-single sex schools (at least until high school) for that reason. In the time I was at the school we were developed to be able to interact with each other and adults but never boys our age. Seems almost cruel IMO
Having said that I think the media has changed a bit in separating boys and girls when it comes to TV shows, music etc. You'll always have media which is designed to appeal to one sex more than the other but from what I've seen it's becoming more generic.

[Melaszka]

Originally Posted by Hysteria

Oh yes I'm sure it is much worse for women most of the time, but nobody had mentioned it could be hard on men yet

It's definitely a good point.

Ugh that's everywhere, isn't it? I went to an all girls' school until high school and looking back on it now there was a lot of conditioning us to be 'proper' girls. Once a year we'd have a 'fun day' with our brother school (all boys) in which we'd go bowling or do something like that. They expected us to all act normally with each other after spending all year keeping us separated as if we are a different species and have nothing in common. I'm pretty anti-single sex schools (at least until high school) for that reason. In the time I was at the school we were developed to be able to interact with each other and adults but never boys our age. Seems almost cruel IMO

I'm not a big fan of single-sex schools either (I went to one aged 11-17 and hated it), but I waver on this a bit.

I do remember reading a lot of stuff at teacher training college about how staff in mixed schools often give far more time and space (sometimes literally! We saw videos where boys were actually occupying more desk and floor space than girls of the same size and weight) to boys and that girls can often be more intimidated into thinking that certain subjects aren't for them (girls often get turned off PE because they don't want to look stupid in front of the boys or wear tight-fitting cloths or run about making heir bits wobble in front of a male audience. And statistically girls are far more likely to specialise in maths and sciences a single-sex schools than mixed ones. Sometimes it's because girls at mixed schools are scared of being labelled unfeminine if they do a "male" subject, sometimes boys behave like they "own" that subject ad won't let anyone else in, sometimes it just never occurs to the that girls can do the subject, too, because they've always seen boys specialising in it.). Sometimes teachers' behaviour is subconscious. A friend of a friend who is a teacher, but is also an ardent feminist and always consciously tries to promote women's rights, was horrified when she saw a video of one of her lessons - she realised that she spent far longer paying attention to he boy and the girls and was far more harsh on the girls than the boys for the same kids of misbehaviour but absolutely none of this was deliberate or conscious.

But I do agree that boys who have been to a single-sex school are more likely to treat girls as an inferior species and treat the world like they own it in RL. (I generalise, of course - I have male friends who went to single-sex schools who are lovely and I know some ********s who went to mixed schools).

Having said that I think the media has changed a bit in separating boys and girls when it comes to TV shows, music etc. You'll always have media which is designed to appeal to one sex more than the other but from what I've seen it's becoming more generic.

I'm not sure but my gut impression is that the opposite is happening in the UK (e.g. Top Gear, which used to be a fairly gender neutral show about cars, has become the televisual equivalent of a lads' mag, with macho presenters who glory in being politically incorrect and make malecentric comments and jokes.) Mind you, that's adult's TV. Like you, I think that children's TV is getting far less gendered here than it used to be.

[Siriusandme]

Originally Posted by Melaszka

I'm not sure but my gut impression is that the opposite is happening in the UK (e.g. Top Gear, which used to be a fairly gender neutral show about cars, has become the televisual equivalent of a lads' mag, with macho presenters who glory in being politically incorrect and make malecentric comments and jokes.) Mind you, that's adult's TV. Like you, I think that children's TV is getting far less gendered here than it used to be.

Really???? I never saw it that way. As far as I can tell there have always been tv-shows geared towards either men or women. And I love Top Gear despite the fact that I'm not in the least bit interested in cars.

[Melaszka]

Originally Posted by Siriusandme

Really???? I never saw it that way. As far as I can tell there have always been tv-shows geared towards either men or women. And I love Top Gear despite the fact that I'm not in the least bit interested in cars.

Well, in fairness, I never watch it and I'm not into cars at all, I'm just going from what I've heard on feminist messageboards:

http://www.thefword.org.uk/blog/2008/05/i_hate_jeremy_c

http://www.thefword.org.uk/blog/2008/12/oh_jeremy_jerem

[Tenshi]

I watched Top Gear some times and I like the guys and their manners. I guess it depends on the indiviual person and how they see people who talk like that. I find it amusing.

In Germany we have this TV channel that's meant to be for guys. DMAX: TV for men. That's their slogan. Most of their shows are about cars and things like "The Deadliest Catch" etc. It just weird that most people I know who watch the channel are women.

On the other hand I know men who like to watch "women stuff" like cooking shows.

LOL just found an article about DMAX in Germany's top feminist magazine. They question why men need their own channel. But the thing is years ago there was an own channel for women, but that didn't work out. Most every women wanted to watch something different, they couldn't please them and the channel vanished after some time. Men are easier to satisfy they say and it's easier to maintain a channel for men than for women.

[DancingMaenid]

Interesting. Here in the U.S., we have Lifetime network, which is billed as a women's network. The closest male equivalent I can think of is Spike TV.

Aside from the obvious stereotypes (women like romance, men like sports) it's hard for me to see what makes entertainment gendered. Admittedly, I don't watch Lifetime much, but I mainly associate it with melodramatic movies that are supposed to teach some sort of lesson.

[Moriath]

Originally Posted by DancingMaenid

Interesting. Here in the U.S., we have Lifetime network, which is billed as a women's network. The closest male equivalent I can think of is Spike TV.

Aside from the obvious stereotypes (women like romance, men like sports) it's hard for me to see what makes entertainment gendered. Admittedly, I don't watch Lifetime much, but I mainly associate it with melodramatic movies that are supposed to teach some sort of lesson.

I remember reading about Spike TV cancelling Blade because it attracted the wrong kind of audience. Women. And I think that Supernatural is set up as a guys show, too, (two brothers on a never-ending road trip, rock music, a cool black car and not a single female character whose main purpose isn't to look good) yet attracts mostly female viewers, which surprised the writers for quite some time. I think the problem is that TV and films are mostly produced, written and directed by men, who don't really know what women may or may not want to see. Which is why it's almost always shallow romances that are catered to a female audience, never action, suspense or superhero films.

[Melaszka]

I have to say, I quite often watch Dave, a channel here which is aimed at men and shows reruns of old BBC shows thought to be particularly suitable for men. The ones I like are some of the extreme survival shows and comedy panel shows.

One thing that this "men"'s channel has really demonstrated to me, though, is how male centric a lot of mainstream TV is. The comedy panel shows, in particular, seem to be dominated by male panel members, with occasionally a token female who tends to get ignored a lot or becomes the butt of sexist jokes. Sandi Toksvig, a female comedian who frequently appears on panel shows on the radio, has been quite outspoken about the fact that when these shows transfer to the TV, mysteriously she ceases to be asked to appear on them, while her male co-panellists usually still are. There does seem to be a culture in TV of avoiding using female participants if they might scare off the male audience, but it's taken for granted that female viewers will be happy to watch a male presenter.

Another thing that does my head in is the stereotype that a panel of 4 with 3 men and one woman on it is "equal rights", while a panel of 4 with 3 women and one man on it is "overfeminised".

But if anyone has any doubts that TV privileges male viewers you've only got to look at the quality of daytime TV. When only chicks are likely to be watching, we get shows aimed at the lobotomised.

[Yoana]

Originally Posted by Melaszka

There does seem to be a culture in TV of avoiding using female participants if they might scare off the male audience, but it's taken for granted that female viewers will be happy to watch a male presenter.

Unfortunately, it seems to be true. There isn't much of a stigma to women doing "men's" stuff, including humour and TV shows, but the opposite is not true.

Another thing that does my head in is the stereotype that a panel of 4 with 3 men and one woman on it is "equal rights", while a panel of 4 with 3 women and one man on it is "overfeminised".

I know, really annoying. Illuminating, too, regarding exactly how far we are on the road to achieving non-sexist state of mind.

But if anyone has any doubts that TV privileges male viewers you've only got to look at the quality of daytime TV. When only chicks are likely to be watching, we get shows aimed at the lobotomised.

Well, the shows they air on our daytime TV are usually Latin-American or Turkish soap operas, but I have found more than a couple of them very entertaining and in some cases even stimulating, as they have made me reflect on social issues and the like. I think the idea that soap operas are moronic might also have some sexist roots, up to a point, since they're aimed primarily at women. My boyfriend has been following (avidly, at that) one of the Turkish soap operas currently running (by the way - during prime time!) on one of the three major TV channels here and he has expressly instructed me not to tell people - he's ashamed of watching a soap opera, Turkish at that (there's some long-standing Bulgarian-Turkish hatred at play here, too).

[Tenshi]

Truth to be told, personally I don't think that female comedians are as good as male ones. We got this comedian who's most famous act was to make fun of his girlfriend and about women in general and he's superb at it, got even into the guiness book for having the biggest audience for a comedy show ever. And when watching the show I bet you'll crack up as well about the women joke because deep down they are true and there are women out there who are like that and you know it.

[Pox Voldius]

Originally Posted by Moriath

I remember reading about Spike TV cancelling Blade because it attracted the wrong kind of audience. Women. And I think that Supernatural is set up as a guys show, too, (two brothers on a never-ending road trip, rock music, a cool black car and not a single female character whose main purpose isn't to look good) yet attracts mostly female viewers, which surprised the writers for quite some time. I think the problem is that TV and films are mostly produced, written and directed by men, who don't really know what women may or may not want to see. Which is why it's almost always shallow romances that are catered to a female audience, never action, suspense or superhero films.

Spike TV also used to air Highlander reruns -- another supposed "guy's show" (action & swordfights) with a large female following.

Meanwhile, my dad likes to watch Ghost Whisperer on WE ("Women's Entertainment TV" -- cable channel in the US).

[Melaszka]

Originally Posted by Tenshi

Truth to be told, personally I don't think that female comedians are as good as male ones.

Wow. That's a bit of a sweeping statement. What, all male comedians are better than all female comedians? Why do you think this is, then? Do men have a funny gene attached to the Y chromosome that women lack?

The Sandi Toksvig case is interesting, in that she is a well-respected comedian who is considered good enough to hire for shows on the radio (quite a reliable arbiter of quality, I would think - Radio 4 comedy has quite high quality control), but rarely seems to make it onto shows when they transfer to the TV. This to me suggests that there is something other than quality going on.

Jo Brand, another British female comedian and one of the few females to be able to hold their own and reach the top in the macho comedy culture has also said some very interesting things about why men succeed and women don't - she definitely doesn't think it's because women are just less funny.

For example, she is heavily overweight and dresses in quite a masculine way and, particularly early on in her career, frequently had to contend with male audiences shouting "Get off stage, you fat lesbian" (she's not actually a lesbian, but many people assume she is, because she doesn't conform to societal norms of male beauty) before she'd even opened her mouth, so they had no idea whether she would be funny or not. But she said that she found that prejudice easier to overcome that the one that attractive female comics face - men are even less likely to have respect for a sexy female comedian. So audiences are judging female comedians on things completely unrelated to their ability to be funny.

Some people have theorised that a certain type of humour - where comedians try to compete with, insult and undermine each other, commonly seen in these comedy panel shows - is partly testosterone-linked and thus easier for men to do. But that's not necessarily any funnier than other types of humour and in my opinion TV that is heavily biased towards that particular brand of comedy could do more to include other types of humour that women (whether naturally or culturally) are more likely to succeed at.

We got this comedian who's most famous act was to make fun of his girlfriend and about women in general and he's superb at it, got even into the guiness book for having the biggest audience for a comedy show ever. And when watching the show I bet you'll crack up as well about the women joke because deep down they are true and there are women out there who are like that and you know it.

There are also comedians (male and female) who do superb routines making fun of men (e.g. Ben Elton used to do a hilarious routine about what would happen if men had periods - there would be macho competitive boasting about who had the heaviest flow and manufacturers would produce sanitary towels "for the man-sized period").

These can be very funny and very astute at picking up on behavioural quirks, although I think there is a danger that they make behaviour which is limited to a minority and socially constructed seem like it is universal, natural and inevitable.

[Pearl_Took]

Originally Posted by Tenshi

Truth to be told, personally I don't think that female comedians are as good as male ones.

Given the amount of male comedians out there who I find deeply unfunny, I don't agree with this at all.

I'm not into stand-up comedians and I find a lot of British comedy these days both lame and over-rated. Comedy was definitely funnier when I was growing up.

Some of my favourite British comedians are women: Victoria Wood (astute, witty and clever), French and Saunders (brilliant), Jo Brand (I love her deadpan style) and Sandi Toksvig (I am remembering her stints back in the early '90s). And let's not forget Joanna Lumley's master-class in comic acting in Absolutely Fabulous.

Also Julia Davis, who wrote and starred in the blacker-than-black Nighty Night. That was satire, people.

Of course there are funny men out there too.

My favourite UK male comedian in recent years is probably Steve Coogan. His Alan Partridge series just cracked me up.

[RavenStar83]

Originally Posted by Pearl_Took

Given the amount of male comedians out there who I find deeply unfunny, I don't agree with this at all.

I'm not into stand-up comedians and I find a lot of British comedy these days both lame and over-rated. Comedy was definitely funnier when I was growing up.

Really? I sorta feel the same about American comedies sometimes. (But it may be more of that I see/hear it all the time, so I've grow tired of it sometimes.) There are few British shows I really loved both running now and in the last 2 decades. The humor was something refreshing for me because I'm not exposed to it as much.

French and Saunders (brilliant),

And let's not forget Joanna Lumley's master-class in comic acting in Absolutely Fabulous.

Oh, how I miss my BBC America channel.