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Gender: Roles, Stereotypes, Discrimination Version 2



 
 
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  #41  
Old February 8th, 2010, 7:01 pm
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Re: Gender: Roles, Stereotypes, Discrimination Version 2

OMG. This guy sounds like he's pulled from the early 20th century: "Why do women need the vote? They can always tell their husbands who to vote for." *barf*

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Originally Posted by kittling View Post
Right! OK! and the science was where exactly??????
Precisely! Don't listen to ideologies, listen to science - and then he proceeds to present his "science": men want power. women want babies. evolution. end of story.


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  #42  
Old February 8th, 2010, 7:39 pm
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Re: Gender: Roles, Stereotypes, Discrimination Version 2

Speaking of sexism, my American Government Politics professor made a joke about how when a couple buys a house in New York State, to this day, the woman is still considered the man's possession on the contract...I'm really not sure if this is true since I'm not married and never bought a house of my own but if true, that is quite disturbing...


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  #43  
Old February 8th, 2010, 8:47 pm
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Re: Gender: Roles, Stereotypes, Discrimination Version 2

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The best thing to do is to kill all the feminists and hippies and liberals.
Um....

And then with the hypocritical

Quote:
Live as you feel like, not as you think you should live like.

I reminds me of this forum I stumbled upon a few months ago that was about "power to men", or something along those lines. Basically, it was an advice site to tell men how great they are and how they need to take control of women and retake their "rightful positions" in society as the dominant gender , Can't link though, there's way too much swearing to be allowed here.


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  #44  
Old February 9th, 2010, 8:43 am
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Re: Gender: Roles, Stereotypes, Discrimination Version 2

Look! Bulgarian gender profile in NYT!

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/02/08/wo...l?pagewanted=1

The interesting stuff as at the end, on the second page - I think that's the actual situation here, the one described by Mr. Daynov and Ms. Vladimirova. In the late 1970s Bulgaria had the highest percentage of working women in the world. And yet, while women's situation was radically changed by Socialism, men's remained as it had been. I think that's where the problem is - women were taken out of the home and introduced to public life and professional realisation, but no feminist awareness or actual equality happened - so it was basically just more fields to exploit women in - in addition to doing all the housework and the bulk of child-rearing, they were now in the national workforce, too, which is merely more work for the same level of appreciation.


  #45  
Old February 9th, 2010, 8:25 pm
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Re: Gender: Roles, Stereotypes, Discrimination Version 2

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Originally Posted by Trixa View Post
That's definitely one step forward. But is this: http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/...2/how-be-happy a step backwards? I sort of find this article insulting but maybe I'm oversensitive. What does everyone else think?
My immediate reaction to this article was ?????? plus some expletives. This guy cites absolutely no scientific or psychological research to back up his claims. I think it's taking a very limited view of human beings to say that women need children to be happy and men need a successful career, and the reverse, to say that a career won't make a woman happy and kids won't make a man happy.

Er, "kill all the feminists and hippies and liberals"???? Nice to see a balanced, rational, scientific proposal.

I also have quite a problem with the statement that "girls have been told for the last half century that they're an inferior version of boys". Anyone with any grasp on history would know that girls and women were treated as inferior for a long, long time. It is feminism that disputes this and sees both women and men as equal.

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Originally Posted by kittling View Post
I am appalled by his failure to even attempt to separate out social convention/ socialisation from actual biological/evolutionary based behaviour. He also shows a marked lack of knowledge about the animal kingdom & feminismís basic tenants to name but two.
That's another problem with this - human beings are more culturally diverse than, say, chimps.

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What makes this assumption rather amusing to me is that evolutionary psychologists have put forward the idea that conditions like S.A.D. may actually have evolutionary roots and be linked to a pseudo-hibernation and that depression may actually have an evolutionary purpose Ė but this evolutionary psychologist would rather blame feminism which he clearly has a negligible knowledge about
Well, it seems it's easier to blame a group in society for problems, rather than digging deeper for an explanation or understanding.


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  #46  
Old February 9th, 2010, 9:00 pm
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Re: Gender: Roles, Stereotypes, Discrimination Version 2

That writer claims that feminists are the ones who have taught girls that they're inferior to boys.

While I'm more than game for discussion about the roles women can play in perpetuating sexism, feminism was a direct response to years of being invalidated socially and politically.


  #47  
Old February 9th, 2010, 10:20 pm
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Re: Gender: Roles, Stereotypes, Discrimination Version 2

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Originally Posted by DancingMaenid View Post
That writer claims that feminists are the ones who have taught girls that they're inferior to boys.

While I'm more than game for discussion about the roles women can play in perpetuating sexism, feminism was a direct response to years of being invalidated socially and politically.
Exactly.

As far as I can make out, the author's main argument (insofar as he has one, underneath all the ranting, bad syntax and general incoherence) is that girls are no good at careers and stuff like that and only make themselves look stupid by trying to compete with boys in that field (owing to the boys' allegedly innate superiority), that we ought to stick to things like cake baking and cuddling small children and bunny rabbits, as that's our sphere of excellence, and our self-esteem would be so incredibly boosted, as we'd be so naturally good at it that everybody would look up to us and admire us.

(a) feminism doesn't teach that all women should be cutthroat ambitious careerists
(b) Yeah, right Society really values, and has always really valued, homemaking and childcare, hasn't it? That's why we get the big bucks.


  #48  
Old February 10th, 2010, 1:43 pm
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Re: Gender: Roles, Stereotypes, Discrimination Version 2

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Originally Posted by Melaszka View Post
As far as I can make out, the author's main argument (insofar as he has one, underneath all the ranting, bad syntax and general incoherence) is that girls are no good at careers and stuff like that and only make themselves look stupid by trying to compete with boys in that field (owing to the boys' allegedly innate superiority), that we ought to stick to things like cake baking and cuddling small children and bunny rabbits, as that's our sphere of excellence, and our self-esteem would be so incredibly boosted, as we'd be so naturally good at it that everybody would look up to us and admire us.

(a) feminism doesn't teach that all women should be cutthroat ambitious careerists
(b) Yeah, right Society really values, and has always really valued, homemaking and childcare, hasn't it? That's why we get the big bucks.
That is not what the article said. The author's actual argument was that people should simply do what feels right to them, not what someone with a political agenda tells them to. Sure, we can nitpick his erroneous comments about feminism, but he sort of has a point from the evolutionary point of view.


  #49  
Old February 10th, 2010, 1:54 pm
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Re: Gender: Roles, Stereotypes, Discrimination Version 2

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Originally Posted by canismajoris View Post
That is not what the article said. The author's actual argument was that people should simply do what feels right to them, not what someone with a political agenda tells them to.
No, he is dictating to women what should feel right. He assumes (on the basis of no cited evidence) that the vast majority of women "feel right" having children and not concentrating full-on on careers and outrageously suggests (again, on the basis of no cited evidence whatsoever) that women who claim they are happy being childless and having high-powered careers are just pretending. (And you can have no idea how hurtful and insulting that is to people like me who are childless women). It seems to me that he is making far more assumptions and has a far more biased, political agenda than any of the groups which he is attacking.

I know of no branch of feminism which argues that women ought to have careers.

And he uses the "inferior versions of boys" phrase to imply that women who take traditionally male paths will not do as well as men in them.

OK, hands up, I was being excessively simplistic and flippant in my previous post, but if he really thinks that people ought to do what they feel like, not what they're told they ought to like, (and I'd broadly agree with that) why not just leave it at that and leave women with a choice? Why insist that the choice not to have children is wrong for most women and can't possibly be what they really feel?

And I don't know where he gets the idea that there is overwhelming pressure on women today to take a traditionally male path. Sure, there are some pressures (e.g. childcare is poorly paid and low status, which will deter many women from taking it, and welfare benefit systems increasingly seem to be structured in such a way that single mothers are expected to find paid work outside the home the minute the placenta hits the pedal bin), but, as I think DancingMaenid indicated, these kinds of pressures predated feminism and feminists have been in the vanguard of fighting them.

While I agree that nobody (male or female) should be pressurised to put career before family, I still feel that there is huge social pressure on women to have children - it is constantly implied to me, in media articles and in comments from people in RL, that because I don't have children, I must be immature, unfulfilled, "not a real woman", selfish etc.

Quote:
Sure, we can nitpick his erroneous comments about feminism, but he sort of has a point from the evolutionary point of view.
Would you care to elucidate on that?

Anyway, which is it? We should do what we feel like, or we must do X, even if we don't feel like it, because that's what evolutionary science says what we ought to feel like?

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Originally Posted by Trixa View Post
Quote:
Another fallacy on which modern feminism is based is that men have more power than women. Among mammals, the female always has more power than the male, and humans are no exception. It is true that, in all human societies, men largely control all the money, politics, and prestige. They do, because they have to, in order to impress women. Women don’t control these resources, because they don’t have to. What do women control? Men. As I mention in an earlier post, any reasonably attractive young woman exercises as much power over men as the male ruler of the world does over women.
So it's OK to deny old, ugly women any power or influence society, then, no matter how intelligent and talented they are? And it's OK to force women to sleep with someone they personally may find repulsive if they want to gain any access to political influence?

Are these people for real?



Last edited by Melaszka; February 10th, 2010 at 3:01 pm.
  #50  
Old February 10th, 2010, 5:51 pm
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Re: Gender: Roles, Stereotypes, Discrimination Version 2

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Originally Posted by Melaszka View Post
ould you care to elucidate on that?

Anyway, which is it? We should do what we feel like, or we must do X, even if we don't feel like it, because that's what evolutionary science says what we ought to feel like?
I don't know anything about evolutionary science so I won't pretend that I do. However, it seems to me a bit naive to deny all socialization that we as humans go thorugh and claim that everything we do or the way we think is all natural and not influenced by our social environment at all. I do believe there are small differences between men and women and what most women and most men would desire. However, the key word being "most" since anyone can prove to be an exception to such a rule. Why should people who are an exception to the rule and who don't act like most people of the same gender would act feel bad or strange? Because this is what comes from stating that men are this way and women are that way. What I'm trying to say is that it is best to treat people as individuals and not try to make them fit into little boxes. Let them decide for themselves what makes and doesn't make them happy. Women who want children will have children while women who don't want children won't have them. What's the big deal? There is no harm done either way. Who is the person who gains anything from calling some people natural and others unnatural because of their choices?

Quote:
He assumes (on the basis of no cited evidence) that the vast majority of women "feel right" having children and not concentrating full-on on careers and outrageously suggests (again, on the basis of no cited evidence whatsoever) that women who claim they are happy being childless and having high-powered careers are just pretending. (And you can have no idea how hurtful and insulting that is to people like me who are childless women).
You're right. No one has any right to tell someone else what should or shouldn't make them happy. I don't care what PhD the person has. And since we're on the subject, it strikes as a bit ironic that most of these psychologists, evolutionsts and other scientists which claim to know what makes people happy, in this case what makes women happy, are men. Go figure!


  #51  
Old February 10th, 2010, 6:39 pm
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Re: Gender: Roles, Stereotypes, Discrimination Version 2

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Originally Posted by canismajoris View Post
Sure, we can nitpick his erroneous comments about feminism, but he sort of has a point from the evolutionary point of view.
Nitpick? He presents (and claims to deny) a completely false idea of feminism. He ascribes ideas and rules to feminism which are not only not held by contemporary feminist theories, but run counter to the basics of feminism. Pointing that out is not nitpicking, it's drawing attention to a pretty big and harmful lie about an ideology which hasn't got the best social image to start with.


  #52  
Old February 10th, 2010, 6:48 pm
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Re: Gender: Roles, Stereotypes, Discrimination Version 2

This guy seems to totally ignore the fact that science has not, to this date, been able to sort out what parts of our behaviour is due to nature and what to nurture.

While our evolutionary history probably plays some, but not all, role in how our gender roles developed, I 'm ready to put a knut or two on stereotypes and discrimination being of the 'nurture' kind.

I don't think I'm going to take his brand of 'science' very seriously in the foreseeable future.


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  #53  
Old February 10th, 2010, 10:27 pm
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Re: Gender: Roles, Stereotypes, Discrimination Version 2

Even if he wasn't trying to insult women and feminists and the intention of the article was simply to argue that women should do what they feel like, not what they think they need to, it's obvious that the writer himself was biased and uneducated.


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  #54  
Old February 10th, 2010, 11:09 pm
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Re: Gender: Roles, Stereotypes, Discrimination Version 2

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Originally Posted by Voldemorts8thHorcrux View Post
it's obvious that the writer himself was biased and uneducated.
Biased absolutely but he has, according to his bio, good qualifications as a scientist Ė shame this article doesnít show any indication of it that I can see


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  #55  
Old February 11th, 2010, 12:44 am
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Re: Gender: Roles, Stereotypes, Discrimination Version 2

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Originally Posted by kittling View Post
Biased absolutely but he has, according to his bio, good qualifications as a scientist Ė shame this article doesnít show any indication of it that I can see
I thought part of being a scientist was backing up his/her statements with facts...I wouldn't mind seeing the sources for his "evidence"


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  #56  
Old February 11th, 2010, 1:06 am
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Re: Gender: Roles, Stereotypes, Discrimination Version 2

Just because the guy is a scientist doesn't automatically mean that he's putting forth scientifically sound ideas, or that he doesn't have biases.

Not to mention, there are a lot of ideas in psychology and sociology that are difficult to accurately test in the first place, which is why they're often called "soft" sciences. Evolutionary psychology has some good points, but as far as I'm aware (and I could be off on this), it's mostly in the realm of speculation.


  #57  
Old February 11th, 2010, 3:56 am
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Re: Gender: Roles, Stereotypes, Discrimination Version 2

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Originally Posted by Melaszka View Post
No, he is dictating to women what should feel right. He assumes (on the basis of no cited evidence) that the vast majority of women "feel right" having children and not concentrating full-on on careers and outrageously suggests (again, on the basis of no cited evidence whatsoever) that women who claim they are happy being childless and having high-powered careers are just pretending. (And you can have no idea how hurtful and insulting that is to people like me who are childless women). It seems to me that he is making far more assumptions and has a far more biased, political agenda than any of the groups which he is attacking.
I just read the article again, and I can't find the passage you're referring to. The vast majority of women do feel right having children and not concentrating on full-on careers (my mother for example). I can't imagine how this is something you'd dispute given the billions of examples. You yourself and countless others in this thread have decried workplace inequality, and the facts that so many women stay at home to have and raise children and so many others lose ground to male colleagues because of maternity leave speak for themselves. I think he's essentially correct to assert that women feel biologically compelled to have children, which contributes to the evolutionary picture he was painting.

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Originally Posted by Melaszka View Post
I know of no branch of feminism which argues that women ought to have careers.
But let's be honest here. There is no organized, unified feminist monolith. I've heard a great many forms of nonsense described as feminism, and I'm sure you have too. What you as a reasonable and educated person consider feminism and what feminism is to most people may not be the same thing. What the author described is not at all how I would describe feminism, but lots of people do. Maybe even most people, so I would have to side with the majority where the connotation of "feminism" is concerned.

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Originally Posted by Melaszka View Post
And he uses the "inferior versions of boys" phrase to imply that women who take traditionally male paths will not do as well as men in them.
Not the way I read it. He used that phrase to imply that some feminists throughout the ages have had an evolutionarily destructive agenda. I believe you have ignored the context, whether you agree with it or not, and misrepresented the meaning. He dislikes the idea that equality implies similarity, and I don't understand what's controversial about that.

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Originally Posted by Melaszka View Post
OK, hands up, I was being excessively simplistic and flippant in my previous post, but if he really thinks that people ought to do what they feel like, not what they're told they ought to like, (and I'd broadly agree with that) why not just leave it at that and leave women with a choice? Why insist that the choice not to have children is wrong for most women and can't possibly be what they really feel?
But did he actually say that? He suggested that fighting historically successful instincts is a waste of effort if the only purpose is political correctness. I mean, seriously, he's overstating his case, but I can't find anything harmful about this statement that ten minutes of reading about feminism wouldn't remedy:

authorLive as you feel like, not as you think you should live like. Your feelings are seldom wrong, because you are designed to feel certain way by millions of years of evolution. Decades of feminism can’t stop that. You are seldom wrong if you follow your feelings; you are seldom right if you follow feminism or any other political ideology.


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Originally Posted by Melaszka View Post
And I don't know where he gets the idea that there is overwhelming pressure on women today to take a traditionally male path. Sure, there are some pressures (e.g. childcare is poorly paid and low status, which will deter many women from taking it, and welfare benefit systems increasingly seem to be structured in such a way that single mothers are expected to find paid work outside the home the minute the placenta hits the pedal bin), but, as I think DancingMaenid indicated, these kinds of pressures predated feminism and feminists have been in the vanguard of fighting them.
I understand Melanie, but to be honest I would have originated the very same idea, had I been asked. My estimation would be that just as many women are pressured to take a traditionally male path as are pressured to take a traditionally female ones.

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Originally Posted by Melaszka View Post
While I agree that nobody (male or female) should be pressurised to put career before family, I still feel that there is huge social pressure on women to have children - it is constantly implied to me, in media articles and in comments from people in RL, that because I don't have children, I must be immature, unfulfilled, "not a real woman", selfish etc.
Well, until we evolve into something else, it will always be true that men father children and women bear them. Whatever the social implications of this are, it is advantageous for women to have children, because that's how our species works--or at least how it has worked in the past.

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Originally Posted by Melaszka View Post
Would you care to elucidate on that?
I think I've said basically enough above, but my point is that I believe I'm an animal. I'm not a soul wrapped in flesh, or an organic machine, I'm a very smart animal. I think the author agrees with me, so while I think his opinions about feminism are nonsense, his underlying idea is not.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Melaszka View Post
Anyway, which is it? We should do what we feel like, or we must do X, even if we don't feel like it, because that's what evolutionary science says what we ought to feel like?
He's describing what evolutionary science has found people have always done (the successful among billions and billions of them for thousands and thousands of years) and suggesting that this is probably what people are the best adapted for doing. Can you really dispute that?

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Originally Posted by Yoana View Post
Nitpick? He presents (and claims to deny) a completely false idea of feminism. He ascribes ideas and rules to feminism which are not only not held by contemporary feminist theories, but run counter to the basics of feminism. Pointing that out is not nitpicking, it's drawing attention to a pretty big and harmful lie about an ideology which hasn't got the best social image to start with.
As I said, it's not a false idea of feminism, it's just a stupid one, one which is shared by millions of people around the world. Are you actually suggesting that by denouncing this concept of feminism he's somehow advocating its legitimacy? I think this guy probably hasn't ever met a feminist in his life, but this is hardly the first time I've seen feminism described this way.



So... I'm sorry everyone, I just think this article is simplistic and entirely forgettable and it probably wouldn't influence anyone who didn't already agree with it. Not something I am too concerned about.



Last edited by canismajoris; February 11th, 2010 at 3:58 am.
  #58  
Old February 11th, 2010, 8:11 am
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Re: Gender: Roles, Stereotypes, Discrimination Version 2

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Originally Posted by canismajoris View Post
But let's be honest here. There is no organized, unified feminist monolith. I've heard a great many forms of nonsense described as feminism, and I'm sure you have too. What you as a reasonable and educated person consider feminism and what feminism is to most people may not be the same thing. What the author described is not at all how I would describe feminism, but lots of people do. Maybe even most people, so I would have to side with the majority where the connotation of "feminism" is concerned.

[...]

As I said, it's not a false idea of feminism, it's just a stupid one, one which is shared by millions of people around the world. Are you actually suggesting that by denouncing this concept of feminism he's somehow advocating its legitimacy? I think this guy probably hasn't ever met a feminist in his life, but this is hardly the first time I've seen feminism described this way.
Connotations and widespread ideas of feminism don't really matter if we're talking facts - because the history and development of feminism first as a social and political movement and then as a branch of humanities are documented. If the vast majority of people don't have even the foggiest idea of what feminism has been and is about, and instead embrace the connotations you mention, well, I think that's sad. But it doesn't make their ideas of feminism in any way legitimate or correct. I can believe that classical liberalism and modern American liberalism are the same thing all I want, but that won't make it true or change what either philosophy actually is - because just like the feminist movement, its ideas are documented for anyone to educate themselves on them.


  #59  
Old February 11th, 2010, 1:25 pm
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Re: Gender: Roles, Stereotypes, Discrimination Version 2

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Originally Posted by Yoana View Post
Connotations and widespread ideas of feminism don't really matter if we're talking facts - because the history and development of feminism first as a social and political movement and then as a branch of humanities are documented. If the vast majority of people don't have even the foggiest idea of what feminism has been and is about, and instead embrace the connotations you mention, well, I think that's sad. But it doesn't make their ideas of feminism in any way legitimate or correct. I can believe that classical liberalism and modern American liberalism are the same thing all I want, but that won't make it true or change what either philosophy actually is - because just like the feminist movement, its ideas are documented for anyone to educate themselves on them.
You know very well that I agree with you about feminism itself. But I don't think that's how it really works semantically. Let me give you an example of what I mean. When I hear and use the word "meme", I am thinking of the concept of memetics put forth by Richard Dawkins et al. and the various related concepts. When most of the other people I know use or hear the word "meme", they're talking about an internet meme which has to do with some sort of ten-question survey or lolcat spamming or other viral bit of internet fluff. They are related in meaning, but are quite distinct. Would it really be reasonable for me to accuse the internet meme crowd of being malicious or to say they're incorrect when they use the word? After all as you said the concept of memetics is well documented from its inception and it's a fact that a meme is precisely what I think it is.

I just find it odd that this author is being crucified for antifeminist rhetoric when as you pointed out he never at any point described feminism as we here understand it. Therefore if anything the author is antiantifeminist, or at least we can acknowledge that his rhetoric is disingenuous. But that doesn't really matter. Within the context of his article, feminism is what he described, and he's strongly against it, so what exactly is the problem?


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Old February 12th, 2010, 7:38 am
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Re: Gender: Roles, Stereotypes, Discrimination Version 2

Quote:
Originally Posted by canismajoris
But did he actually say that? He suggested that fighting historically successful instincts is a waste of effort if the only purpose is political correctness. I mean, seriously, he's overstating his case, but I can't find anything harmful about this statement that ten minutes of reading about feminism wouldn't remedy:

author: Live as you feel like, not as you think you should live like. Your feelings are seldom wrong, because you are designed to feel certain way by millions of years of evolution. Decades of feminism canít stop that. You are seldom wrong if you follow your feelings; you are seldom right if you follow feminism or any other political ideology.
It certainly sounds like the author means that any women who don't have the biological urge to have children will not be happy. In the context of his whole article, that's exactly what he's saying in that statement.

Other statements in his article tell us what he means by the quote you posted:

authorSpending time with their children is what makes women happy. As Danielle Crittenden very eloquently argues in her book What Our Mothers Didnít Tell Us: Why Happiness Eludes the Modern Women, it is very unlikely that women will be truly happy without having children, but, as Crittenden points out, there are ways to combine careers with motherhood. Itís not the way that the feminists have told us.

Not only incorrect about what feminism supports, but in the statement that women without children won't be happy.

authorMen and women are very different, because they are designed by millions of years of evolution to be very different. Women cannot become happy by pretending to be men, and men cannot become happy by pretending to be women.


What he really means by this is that women should get out of jobs, politics, government, give up their independence, ability to support themselves, etc. -and leaving careers, government, money,etc. to men is implied by the absence of women - because women are pre-programmed by evolution to only want to have children and be mothers. Make no mistake, this is an old argument used for ages to keep women away from power, money, education and thinking for themselves.

and....

authorThe best thing to do is to kill all the feminists and hippies and liberals. Destroy political correctness completely once and for all. Teach boys and girls that they are different, not the same, and that itís okay (nay, wonderful) to be different. One is not right and the other is not wrong. Stop telling girls that they are inferior versions of boys, as feminists have done for the last half century, or, as has more recently been the case, stop telling boys that they are inferior versions of girls.


Sorry, but in my opinion, this "evolutionary psychologist" has some issues. Not only does he again misrepresent what feminism is all about, his view of of the world and purported source of happiness is so de-evolved that it's alarming. And his claim 2 days later that an extremely limited poll (about 28,000 worldwide -- really small sample for the entire global community) proves him right. Seriously?


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