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Gender: Roles, Stereotypes, Discrimination Version 2



 
 
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  #21  
Old January 24th, 2010, 4:36 am
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Re: Gender: Roles, Stereotypes, Discrimination Version 2

Quote:
Originally Posted by Voldemorts8thHorcrux View Post
I have a slightly different theory. I think that different boys and girls have different tendencies to want to fit into certain categories. I'm not quite sure "Likes playing with dolls" is somewhere in the DNA, but maybe "Wants to be seen as more feminine" is. (Not sure if that made sense)
That could be.

Also, I think there's a difference between gender and gender-typed behavior. A girl can play with dolls or be a tomboy, but be a girl nonetheless. Gender is not strictly linked with gender-typed behavior, though someone may be seen as fitting or not fitting their gender through their behavior.

There's some evidence to suggest that children are more likely to gravitate towards toys that "match" their gender, but I think that thinking of play and behavior as gendered can oversimplify it.

I enjoyed dolls a lot when I was young, but I never used them to play "nurturing" games. I was more likely to pretend they were robbing banks or were shipwrecked. Is this masculine or feminine play? And does liking dolls make me female?


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  #22  
Old January 24th, 2010, 8:13 am
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Re: Gender: Roles, Stereotypes, Discrimination Version 2

I loved playing ship when I was little; I also loved constructors (like Lego). I can't accept these are inherently masculine activities in which girls can't be interested. I tend to think that in most cases, a child will play with whataver you give him/her - until s/he is old enough to understand concepts like "odd", "inappropriate", "embarrassing" - that is, old enough to oick up societal cues.


  #23  
Old January 24th, 2010, 9:01 am
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Re: Gender: Roles, Stereotypes, Discrimination Version 2

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Originally Posted by DancingMaenid View Post
That could be.


I enjoyed dolls a lot when I was young, but I never used them to play "nurturing" games. I was more likely to pretend they were robbing banks or were shipwrecked. Is this masculine or feminine play? And does liking dolls make me female?
I was the same. I played with dolls because I liked to do their hair but I liked the technical aspect of it (trying to make odd shapes hold with only one bobbypin). And even now I'm obsessed with shoes (a female stereotype) but that's because I'm on a quest to find the perfect pair of boots for a very "masculine" steampunk outfit.


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  #24  
Old January 24th, 2010, 12:46 pm
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Re: Gender: Roles, Stereotypes, Discrimination Version 2

Quote:
Originally Posted by Voldemorts8thHorcrux View Post
I have a slightly different theory. I think that different boys and girls have different tendencies to want to fit into certain categories. I'm not quite sure "Likes playing with dolls" is somewhere in the DNA, but maybe "Wants to be seen as more feminine" is. (Not sure if that made sense)
That might be true at a certain age, but the average 2yr old isn't concerned with being a boy or a girl. He just wants to play. I have my nephew a an example. He can pley with his own toys and my nieces toys and still, there's nothing better than a toy car. Cars of any size for that matter...


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  #25  
Old January 24th, 2010, 2:53 pm
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Re: Gender: Roles, Stereotypes, Discrimination Version 2

I dot really think it would apply to young kids actually. They may want to try to act like kids around them or what their parents want, but when younger, the different gender tend to have less differences so that would apply to play as well.

Which reminds me of something, where did cooties come from anyways?


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  #26  
Old January 24th, 2010, 5:34 pm
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Re: Gender: Roles, Stereotypes, Discrimination Version 2

Girls who aren't exactly feminine think they have it tough, think of guys who aren't exactly masculine. They go through an incredibly hard time too. I see people in my life all the time who face discrimination because of that.


  #27  
Old January 24th, 2010, 6:47 pm
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Re: Gender: Roles, Stereotypes, Discrimination Version 2

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Originally Posted by ActingDude17 View Post
Girls who aren't exactly feminine think they have it tough, think of guys who aren't exactly masculine. They go through an incredibly hard time too. I see people in my life all the time who face discrimination because of that.
Yes, gender roles can be oppressive to both sexes.


  #28  
Old January 24th, 2010, 8:53 pm
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Re: Gender: Roles, Stereotypes, Discrimination Version 2

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Originally Posted by ActingDude17 View Post
Girls who aren't exactly feminine think they have it tough, think of guys who aren't exactly masculine. They go through an incredibly hard time too. I see people in my life all the time who face discrimination because of that.
When I think about this it makes me glad I'm a woman. I got made fun of and called a [insult for lesbian] many times, but nothing ever resorted to physical violence I hear of from my male friends.


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  #29  
Old January 24th, 2010, 10:50 pm
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Re: Gender: Roles, Stereotypes, Discrimination Version 2

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Originally Posted by MistressofRaven View Post
When I think about this it makes me glad I'm a woman. I got made fun of and called a [insult for lesbian] many times, but nothing ever resorted to physical violence I hear of from my male friends.
Yeah. I'm not trying to belittle female stereotypes or expectations at all. Yoana said it very well. What I was trying to do is point out that girls aren't the only ones. I don't really face male stereotypes myself, at least not as much as other people I know, and for that I am thankful. It seems like no other guys post in this thread.


  #30  
Old January 25th, 2010, 12:18 am
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Re: Gender: Roles, Stereotypes, Discrimination Version 2

I did last page. Though really just to emphasise the fact that since everybody is happily dismissing genetic differences they are basically just ignoring the science.

Obviously things like toy-preference has nothing to do with genetics but things like 'playing rough-house' does along with countless other forms of behaviour. Gender does imply certain characteristics since the female body, organs and by extension the brain are different. Moreover, characteristics and tendencies towards certain behaviours, gender-based or not are now known to be far more skewed towards genetics than previously thought. It doesn't make for great reading since it gets pretty close to eugenics and other less savoury topics but this is what is true.

This does not by the way excuse any sort of argument along the lines of 'women are predisposed to behave in this way, therefore attitude x is absolutely fine to apply to all women' etc


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  #31  
Old January 25th, 2010, 5:39 am
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Re: Gender: Roles, Stereotypes, Discrimination Version 2

Quote:
Originally Posted by Overdose View Post
Obviously things like toy-preference has nothing to do with genetics but things like 'playing rough-house' does along with countless other forms of behaviour. Gender does imply certain characteristics since the female body, organs and by extension the brain are different. Moreover, characteristics and tendencies towards certain behaviours, gender-based or not are now known to be far more skewed towards genetics than previously thought. It doesn't make for great reading since it gets pretty close to eugenics and other less savoury topics but this is what is true.
It's difficult to tell, though, how much some of this stuff is due to nature and how much is due to nurture. For instance, males may be more inclined to rough-housing, but they're also more likely to be encouraged in that behavior as children.

Gendered behavior, and the extent of it, can vary somewhat with culture. For example, while women are generally encouraged to be passive and gentle, this sort of socialization is much more prominent in some cultures than others.

There is evidence to suggest that young children are inclined to pick up on gender and even gravitate towards behaviors that match their gender. This, too, can be a little complicated, because once kids become aware of gender and start thinking of themselves and others as being gendered, there are several factors in the mix that can influence their decisions.

But are there gender differences? Certainly. I don't think someone can be completely socialized and raised to be a certain gender. If this were the case, there wouldn't be transgendered people, or people like me who don't really fit well in the gender binary.

I think, though, that a lot of people oversimplify gender typed behavior and its connection to someone's gender or gender identity. Like I said, there will always be girls who are tomboys but who still regard themselves as female and feel relatively comfortable in that label. Likewise, there will always be boys who prefer things like dance over sports, but see themselves as male. A lot of people operate under the assumption (or, sometimes, fear) that a child's behavior will influence their gender or sexuality -- that is, a little boy who plays with dolls will certainly be gay or a transgendered woman. If anything, it's the other way around -- and it's not a certainty that a child's behavior will match with their gender, anyway.

I grew up loving dolls, and went through a couple periods of liking jewelry and makeup. But I sure didn't grow up to be particularly female.


  #32  
Old January 25th, 2010, 10:40 am
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Re: Gender: Roles, Stereotypes, Discrimination Version 2

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Originally Posted by Overdose View Post
I did last page. Though really just to emphasise the fact that since everybody is happily dismissing genetic differences they are basically just ignoring the science.
In addition to what DancingMaenid said in her post (excellent post btw DM ) I think we also need to recognise that just because one piece of research says something does not make it either right or good science despite the fact that it can be treated as such. Scientific research into gender if affected by the gender socialisation that the researchers have undergone and this can skew results.

The example that springs t my mind is a piece of research that I read about a year ago (ish) that said that female preferred pink because of their role as gatherers in hunter-gather society. The scientists involved seem to have assumed that the societal ideas about gender are biological and thus have not changed throughout history. However the notion that pink is a girls colour and boys don't like it is a very modern idea - just over a century ago pink was regarded as the colour of male children not female.

Some times the research smacks of using science to try to justify particular aspects of gender roles rather that actually trying to get closer to understanding the reality of gender – and many people are therefore reluctant to place too much faith in ‘the science’. For myself I like good science but one can only ***** what to believe if one studies each research paper not just blindly believe what they are told in the reporting of science in the media.


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  #33  
Old January 25th, 2010, 11:05 am
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Re: Gender: Roles, Stereotypes, Discrimination Version 2

Quote:
Originally Posted by Overdose View Post
I did last page. Though really just to emphasise the fact that since everybody is happily dismissing genetic differences they are basically just ignoring the science.

Obviously things like toy-preference has nothing to do with genetics but things like 'playing rough-house' does along with countless other forms of behaviour. Gender does imply certain characteristics since the female body, organs and by extension the brain are different. Moreover, characteristics and tendencies towards certain behaviours, gender-based or not are now known to be far more skewed towards genetics than previously thought. It doesn't make for great reading since it gets pretty close to eugenics and other less savoury topics but this is what is true.
What Dancing Maenid said!

Kittling makes a very good point about some of the cod science that gets picked up by the media. I'm assuming that you're not referring to things like that, though, but to more credible things like Simon Baron-Cohen's work on the influence of foetal testosterone?

Although I would point out that it's by no means universally accepted (S B-C's conclusions about autism being the manifestation of an extreme masculine brain are particularly contentious and several people have pointed out that if his theory is correct, there ought to be a medical condition , the complete opposite of Asperger's, suffered by people with extreme feminine brains, who are exceptionally good at communication and touchy-feely stuff but whose analytical and systemisation skills are so poor they cannot adequately function in normal life. And there isn't.)

Also, Baron-Cohen himself (and, as far as I'm aware, all credible scientists working in this field) points out, it's a spectrum, not an absolute division, with most men more to one end and most women more to the other, but with plenty of exceptions and most people nearer to the middle than the extremes.

Apologies for the repetition to anyone who's heard me banging on about this before in previous versions of this thread.

Quote:
This does not by the way excuse any sort of argument along the lines of 'women are predisposed to behave in this way, therefore attitude x is absolutely fine to apply to all women' etc
I'm glad you recognise that. The problem is, that is exactly the kind of argument that the right-wing media does construct based on this research. There seems to be a lot of special interest groups out there who are sitting waiting for science to emerge that suggests that men and women are inherently different, so they can leap on it and use it to justify oppressing people. That's why the whole subject of gender differences makes me a little nervous.

Also, even if we accept that the sexes are inherently different psychologically and behaviourally, what do we do with that information? What annoys me is the way that some people want to use "inherent gender differences" as a way of making sure that society is arranged solely for men's benefit.

e.g. if girls do slightly better than boys in exams, there's a loud outcry that the education system is "too feminised", features too much coursework and teamwork, and that we ought to go back to competitive end-of-course exams and practical exercises, to appeal to boys' testosterone-driven sense of adventure and competition (in the UK, at least - as was mentioned on previous versions of this thread, funnily enough, in countries where they actually have that kind of education system and girls are still doing better than boys, people still claim the education system is "too feminised" and want to introduce coursework and teamwork to help boys )

Yet nobody ever seems to argue that we ought to reform our legal, economic and political systems, which are entirely built on conflict and competition and thus logically ought to favour the people with the most testosterone. It seems it only needs fixing if it's perceived as giving women an advantage.


  #34  
Old January 25th, 2010, 9:18 pm
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Re: Gender: Roles, Stereotypes, Discrimination Version 2

One step forward, at least!
The other day, as I was sitting in class, a professor of mine made a comment about how women have been "duping" men for years. "Women are big dupers," he said, and then he started laughing. Not one male student laughed. Not one. A lot of them raised their eyebrows, and one even said, "Ouch."
In an educational setting, it was nice to see a group of men take on the (perhaps unofficial) stance that jokes about women do not belong in the classroom. This was a refreshing experience for me as a woman, to see men of my generation not laugh at what was obviously discriminatory.
Just thought I'd share it with you.


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  #35  
Old February 8th, 2010, 4:52 pm
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Re: Gender: Roles, Stereotypes, Discrimination Version 2

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Originally Posted by Sheree View Post
One step forward, at least!
The other day, as I was sitting in class, a professor of mine made a comment about how women have been "duping" men for years. "Women are big dupers," he said, and then he started laughing. Not one male student laughed. Not one. A lot of them raised their eyebrows, and one even said, "Ouch."
In an educational setting, it was nice to see a group of men take on the (perhaps unofficial) stance that jokes about women do not belong in the classroom. This was a refreshing experience for me as a woman, to see men of my generation not laugh at what was obviously discriminatory.
Just thought I'd share it with you.
That's definitely one step forward. But is this: http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/...2/how-be-happy a step backwards? I sort of find this article insulting but maybe I'm oversensitive. What does everyone else think?


  #36  
Old February 8th, 2010, 5:00 pm
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Re: Gender: Roles, Stereotypes, Discrimination Version 2

From above-linked article:

"Forget what feminists, hippies, and liberals have told you in the last half century. They are all lies based on political ideology and conviction, not on science. "

All feminist ideas are lies? I can't treat an article which starts its thesis with such a generalization and such a dismissal with respect. It just can't be taken seriously, in my opinion. And he thinks that children only make women happy, not man? Really?? And... a woman cannot be happy if she is not a mother?! Not to mention he clearly has no idea what feminism is and what its ideas are. No, Trixa, you're not oversensitive - this is outright insulting, it's also ridiculously simplistic, sounds like it's taken out of a 4 grader's essay, and in short, it's ****.

But it does seem to me that lately, boldly denying all that is considered "PC indoctrination" provides the much needed "shock value" necessary to draw attention to oneself...



Last edited by Yoana; February 8th, 2010 at 5:05 pm.
  #37  
Old February 8th, 2010, 5:00 pm
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Re: Gender: Roles, Stereotypes, Discrimination Version 2

Oh. My. Word.

If I said what I thought of this, the autocensor would be very busy.

The sentence which made me most incandescent is "it is very unlikely that women will be truly happy without having children".


  #38  
Old February 8th, 2010, 5:09 pm
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Re: Gender: Roles, Stereotypes, Discrimination Version 2

"Swedes have already tried that, and they have failed massively and spectacularly."

What the hell is he talking about?!

The countries which have gone furthest away from the traditional gender model this blogger recommends as recipe for perfect happiness are the Scandinavian nations. Weirdly, they are among the most socially and economically advanced nations on earth. What a mystery!!

"The best thing to do is to kill all the feminists and hippies and liberals."

Okay, now I'm thinking he's not even serious. You can't really seriously be a scientist and believe that. Right? I mean, he's calling for killing people who disagree with them. Well, no wonder there's no comment option underneath this rubbish!

He's just a hater. Feminism obviously really really bugs him...


  #39  
Old February 8th, 2010, 5:28 pm
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Re: Gender: Roles, Stereotypes, Discrimination Version 2

Quote:
Originally Posted by Yoana View Post
"Swedes have already tried that, and they have failed massively and spectacularly."

What the hell is he talking about?!

The countries which have gone furthest away from the traditional gender model this blogger recommends as recipe for perfect happiness are the Scandinavian nations. Weirdly, they are among the most socially and economically advanced nations on earth. What a mystery!!
He must be referring to the fact that Swedes are considered to be rather unhappy people and have all sorts of depressions from very early ages. And a rather strange relationship with alcohol... Howevere, to blame all that on feminism is beyond idiotic. How can anyone who calls himself a psychologist assume something like that? Also, the idea of Swedish Feminism isn't to make women behave like men and men to behave like women but rather to blur the boundaries between what is "feminine" and "masculine" and make us question the things we take for granted as belonging to solely one gender. While some ideas are pretty out there they have however put the spotlight on a global issue and attempt to solve it.

Quote:
He's just a hater. Feminism obviously really really bugs him...
Oh yeah. Here some gems from another article:

Quote:
First, modern feminism is illogical because, as Pinker points out, it is based on the vanilla assumption that, but for lifelong gender socialization and pernicious patriarchy, men and women are on the whole identical. An insurmountable body of evidence by now conclusively demonstrates that the vanilla assumption is false; men and women are inherently, fundamentally, and irreconcilably different. Any political movement based on such a spectacularly incorrect assumption about human nature – that men and women are and should be identical – is doomed to failure.

Quote:
Further, modern feminism is unnecessary, because its entire raison d’ętre is the unquestioned assumption that women are and have historically always been worse off than men. The fact that men and women are fundamentally different and want different things makes it difficult to compare their welfare directly, to assess which sex is better off; for example, the fact that women make less money than men cannot by itself be evidence that women are worse off than men, any more than the fact that men own fewer pairs of shoes than women cannot be evidence that men are worse off than women. However, in the only two biologically meaningful measures of welfare – longevity and reproductive success – women are and have always been slightly better off than men. In every human society, women live longer than men, and more women attain some reproductive success; many more men end their lives as total reproductive losers, having left no genetic offspring.
Quote:
Another fallacy on which modern feminism is based is that men have more power than women. Among mammals, the female always has more power than the male, and humans are no exception. It is true that, in all human societies, men largely control all the money, politics, and prestige. They do, because they have to, in order to impress women. Women don’t control these resources, because they don’t have to. What do women control? Men. As I mention in an earlier post, any reasonably attractive young woman exercises as much power over men as the male ruler of the world does over women.
Quote:
Finally, modern feminism is evil because it ultimately makes women (and men) unhappy. In a forthcoming article in the American Economic Journal: Economic Policy, Betsey Stevenson and Justin Wolfers of the Wharton School of Business at the University of Pennsylvania show that American women over the last 35 years have steadily become less and less happy, as they have made more and more money relative to men. Women used to be a lot happier than men despite the fact that they made much less money than men.
Feminism is evil. Got it.


  #40  
Old February 8th, 2010, 5:48 pm
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Re: Gender: Roles, Stereotypes, Discrimination Version 2

Right! OK! and the science was where exactly??????

I think Yoana summed up most of my opinion fairly well - actually all of you so far now I think of it!

While I agree to some extent with the Kanazawa original premise that:

Quote:
We are all designed by evolution to be certain way, and no amount of denial or fighting will change our evolutionary legacy and its implications.
I am appalled by his failure to even attempt to separate out social convention/ socialisation from actual biological/evolutionary based behaviour. He also shows a marked lack of knowledge about the animal kingdom & feminism’s basic tenants to name but two.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Yoana View Post
"Swedes have already tried that, and they have failed massively and spectacularly."

What the hell is he talking about?!
I wondered that too.

Frankly the lack of rigour and the embracing of such massive generalisations and misinformation / misunderstanding make this fodder for the rubbish bin imo.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Trixa View Post
He must be referring to the fact that Swedes are considered to be rather unhappy people and have all sorts of depressions from very early ages. And a rather strange relationship with alcohol... Howevere, to blame all that on feminism is beyond idiotic. How can anyone who calls himself a psychologist assume something like that?
Thanks Trixa!

What makes this assumption rather amusing to me is that evolutionary psychologists have put forward the idea that conditions like S.A.D. may actually have evolutionary roots and be linked to a pseudo-hibernation and that depression may actually have an evolutionary purpose – but this evolutionary psychologist would rather blame feminism which he clearly has a negligible knowledge about


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