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Abortion V.5



 
 
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  #81  
Old June 24th, 2009, 12:57 am
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Re: Abortion V.5

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Originally Posted by DeliciousMoon View Post
I agree with this. (Thank you by making your thoughts clear to me by the way. ) I agree that everyone has the right to knowledge about safe sex practices, and what exactly the science behind a fetus and abortion is. However what I could not ever agree on, is people saying "this is the science behind the fetus, and therefore abortion is wrong because...". The answer to the question on whether or not abortion is wrong, or if the fetus is a life that's worthy of protecting should never be taught, imo. Rather it should be addressed as "this is the quesion, these are some opinions that exist, and these are reasons why so-and-so believes this". But never "you should believe this because...". At least in my humble opinion. Imo, people should get to chose whether or not they think abortion is wrong.

well, why shoudln't people learn about exactly what they are destroying? Whether or not they see a fetus as a human being, they should still be aware of exactly what the fetus is. It's like telling a student what a rat is and what it's like and how i'ts similar to a human, but also why it's bad, and how it transmits diseases. I would much rather have a person make an educated choice about what they're doing rather than an uneducated choice. Some people will take different views, and that's all right by me as long as they're doing it because they understand the situation and aren't doing it out of ignorance. the wonders of pro choice eh?

Anywyas, to further explain what i said above about making it more socially acceptable to adopt or easier for a woman to carry a child to term rather than abortion, its about making more options available. If a woman is just completely against having a child for whatever reason that is her own, and not someone pressuring her to make that decision, that's the best case scenario


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  #82  
Old June 24th, 2009, 2:23 am
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Re: Abortion V.5

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Originally Posted by Voldemorts8thHorcrux View Post
well, why shoudln't people learn about exactly what they are destroying?
But I did state that I thought people should learn what a fetus is. I disagreed with the fact that they should be taught it's "wrong" to abort one because I think for some woman it can be the right choice. I do not believe that every one of those woman who chose to abort because it was right for them had no idea what a fetus was.

Quote:
It's like telling a student what a rat is and what it's like and how i'ts similar to a human, but also why it's bad, and how it transmits diseases.
An abortion causes the fetus to die - I don't think anyone that goes into abortion does not know this. However many woman still chose to have one because it is the right choice for them, and many do not see it as "bad" as well, myself included. (I do know that the fetus cannot survive outside a woman's body thank you very much and I still think that it is not always a bad thing to do, depending on the situation. This is my opinion, and I have been educated on it.)


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Old June 24th, 2009, 2:59 am
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Re: Abortion V.5

well, i know that they know that a fetus is alive, but even some people in this thread don't know stuff like when a heart starts beating, when the neurons start firing, things that people consider human. Everyone draws a line at a different point (and mine personally is when the fetus can be taken out of the mother's womb without dying). And I definitely agree that the woman aborted because it was what they thought was best for themselves or for their family or even for the unborn babybut i bet if they were taught more, some would've decided that they didn't want to abort or maybe they should have and the fetus they decided to save wasn't worth it.

Quote:
An abortion causes the fetus to die - I don't think anyone that goes into abortion does not know this.
everyone has different ideas on what is human and what isn't


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  #84  
Old June 24th, 2009, 4:48 am
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Re: Abortion V.5

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Originally Posted by DeliciousMoon View Post
An abortion causes the fetus to die - I don't think anyone that goes into abortion does not know this.
Yes everyone knows that, however it is also important for women to be informed of all the risks that are associated with abortion. Whatever they decide is up to them, but women do need to be informed of possible health risks that can be associated with abortion. No one should go into an abortion without being fully informed and it is our job as a society to inform everyone as fully as possible.


  #85  
Old June 24th, 2009, 5:01 am
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Re: Abortion V.5

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Originally Posted by NickHeartsMat View Post
Yes everyone knows that, however it is also important for women to be informed of all the risks that are associated with abortion. Whatever they decide is up to them, but women do need to be informed of possible health risks that can be associated with abortion. No one should go into an abortion without being fully informed and it is our job as a society to inform everyone as fully as possible.
No arguments here. I'm only opposed to "abortion is bad only because all human life is sacred" teachings.


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Old June 24th, 2009, 11:04 am
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Re: Abortion V.5

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Originally Posted by NickHeartsMat View Post
Yes everyone knows that, however it is also important for women to be informed of all the risks that are associated with abortion. Whatever they decide is up to them, but women do need to be informed of possible health risks that can be associated with abortion. No one should go into an abortion without being fully informed and it is our job as a society to inform everyone as fully as possible.
That is very true. But they also need to be informed of the health risks of carrying a pregnancy to term, as well.


  #87  
Old June 24th, 2009, 1:35 pm
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Re: Abortion V.5

1. What term would you use to describe your abortion stance, and why?

Pro-choice, because I think the mother/parents are the ones who should decide to keep the baby. If for any reason they cannot, I believe they should have the choice to abort.

2. If you are pro-life, what is the single biggest thing you wished pro-choice people would understand about your position?

I am pro life too; I really don't care much for the term 'pro-life'; it sounds as if I don't care much for a baby's life; I would much prefer pro-choice and anti or no choice, to pro life, because I am sure every poster who is pro choice is also pro life.

3. If you are pro-choice, what is the single biggest thing that you wished pro-life people would understand about your position?

That I am pro life too. Just because I feel the mother should have a choice, it does not mean I am not pro life. Only I think seeing how badly an unwanted child can grow up, I feel that the mother has the right to abort, if she feels she has valid reason.

4. What are some ways in which both sides can work together to reduce the number of abortions? What compromises would have to be made to make this happen?

I really don't think there is a need to work to reduce abortions, but I think couples should take care to reduce pregnancies which they know they will not be able to carry full term. I think that's more productive than trying or campaigning to reduce abortions.

5. Do you think that it's realistic that both sides will be able to work together to reduce the number of abortions? Why or why not?

Same answer as above.

6. (Non-US posters): Any additional thoughts regarding the differences in climate and laws between your country and the United States?

In India, it's legal; though Hinduism states that unless the mother's life is in danger, abortion should be avoided IIRC.


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  #88  
Old June 24th, 2009, 2:35 pm
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Re: Abortion V.5

1. What term would you use to describe your abortion stance, and why?

Pro-choice however, I strongly oppose late-term abortion and really, abortion as a whole unless it takes place previous to the first trimester of pregnancy. Even then I am extremely reluctant to condone abortion, but I recognise that in the current climate women should and indeed must choose.

3. If you are pro-choice, what is the single biggest thing that you wished pro-life people would understand about your position?

That I in no way condone 'killing babies', 'destroying life' or really any of that. I simply think that legalised abortion under controlled conditions at early stages of pregnancy is better than the alternative.

4. What are some ways in which both sides can work together to reduce the number of abortions? What compromises would have to be made to make this happen?

It should be easy enough for couples to reduce pregnancy. Contraception is nearly 99% effective.

6. (Non-US posters): Any additional thoughts regarding the differences in climate and laws between your country and the United States?

It's legal in Britain but not Northern Ireland, something that I find extremely odd. We legislate that abortion is legal within I believe up to 23 weeks of pregnancy (though somebody correct me if I'm wrong) and then after that only in the case of a mother's life being in danger. That seems pretty much fine by me.


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  #89  
Old June 24th, 2009, 6:25 pm
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Re: Abortion V.5

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Originally Posted by DeliciousMoon View Post
No arguments here. I'm only opposed to "abortion is bad only because all human life is sacred" teachings.
Well, my stance is that all life is important in general but not something to be protected at all costs because there are also other important things as well. Always exceptions to the rule


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  #90  
Old August 17th, 2009, 7:35 pm
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Re: Abortion V.5

1. What term would you use to describe your abortion stance, and why?
Politically pro-choice, personally pro-life (I personally would not have an abortion, but I respect other women's choice)


3. If you are pro-choice, what is the single biggest thing that you wished pro-life people would understand about your position?
That one person's beliefs and reasoning isn't the same as everyone elses. And that pro-choice isn't pro-abortion

4. What are some ways in which both sides can work together to reduce the number of abortions? What compromises would have to be made to make this happen?
This mainly ties in with the next question in that there should be limits on abortion, but I don't think many pro-lifers would agree that that is a viable option for them.

5. Do you think that it's realistic that both sides will be able to work together to reduce the number of abortions? Why or why not?
I think pro-life groups could provide more support to those considering abortion, (financial support etc afterwards) but without the moral high-ground, unfortunately most of the vocal pro-lifers wouldn't give up and with the moral argument neither side will work together

6. (Non-US posters): Any additional thoughts regarding the differences in climate and laws between your country and the United States?
The fact that unless it is for gross abnormalities you cant have an abortion here (UK) after 24 weeks, in fact most you can't get over 16-18 weeks. If you are one of the few who terminates after 22 weeks (most usually for conditions not compatible with life) fetocide occurs first so no chance of a live birth and none of these partial birth abortions which pro-lifers go on about


  #91  
Old August 17th, 2009, 11:42 pm
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Re: Abortion V.5

1. What term would you use to describe your abortion stance, and why?

Pro-choice. A woman should have control of her body; that is not the responsibility of bureaucrats in the halls of power. Women from all walks of life should be properly educated about birth control and abortion as well, as unintended pregnancy can happen as a result of a lack of education, which tragically is a problem in less affluent communities. Education of the options available, and possible preventive measures, should be the first priority, before any wrangling over the morality of abortion takes place. Abortion's a nasty business; it's not something anyone takes lightly. But in my personal opinion, if the baby is not viable, whether due to lethal birth defects or it being early in the pregancy, abortion should remain an option. In my view, that's all that pro-choice advocates are saying. No one's forcing women to abort children. If the mother wishes, she could carry the baby to term regardless of abortion being legal.

2. If you are pro-life, what is the single biggest thing you wished pro-choice people would understand about your position?

I'm not sure how to respond to this, as I've never really saw this issue well enough from a pro-life viewpoint to comment. Sorry.

3. If you are pro-choice, what is the single biggest thing that you wished pro-life people would understand about your position?

That we aren't some sort of baby-killing death squad. There's a distinction between advocating for abortion, and advocating for the availability of abortion and education in pregnancy prevention. I strongly support the latter, but I would never say to a woman, "Get an abortion, now!" To do so is the mother's choice.

4. What are some ways in which both sides can work together to reduce the number of abortions? What compromises would have to be made to make this happen?

I think the best way to prevent abortion is to prevent unwanted pregnancy. And simply saying "Don't have sex!" without explaining the function of other measures, such as the usage of condoms, birth control, surgical procedures such as vasectomies, etc. won't help. Eventually, people will have sex, and in this day and age, before marriage. Better for sexually active people to know this information rather than being armed with "Abstinence is the only way!" Plus, it's just common sense to know these things, as safe sex prevents not only pregnancy, but dangerous sexually-transmitted diseases and infections.

For many, being pro-life and pro-abstinence seems to go hand in hand. Abstinence isn't invalid - if one were never to engage in intercourse, they would never initiate pregnancy. But morality shouldn't conflict with common sense. I'm not an advocate of promiscuity, and I don't think having people educated about birth control will make people more sexually-active than they already are. My point is, drilling abstinence values may do some good initially, but eventually, people will have sex. If they do all they can to prevent unwanted pregnancy, then abortions may become rarer.

5. Do you think that it's realistic that both sides will be able to work together to reduce the number of abortions? Why or why not?

I don't think it's possible if both sides continue to see each other as merciless enemies, rather than people with different viewpoints, ideas, and solutions.


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  #92  
Old August 18th, 2009, 5:14 pm
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Re: Abortion V.5

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Originally Posted by Melaszka View Post
That is very true. But they also need to be informed of the health risks of carrying a pregnancy to term, as well.
I believe that information should include the potential emotional effects as well. The decision being made is generally made in a time of anxiety and sometimes fear. The liklihood of regret is very real, especially among young and scared women. It is often easier to see a fetus as "not a life" at 16-20 than when a woman is older, especially once she has had a child. That change in perception has been a cruel punishment for many women, many of whom are fervent pro-life converts because of it.


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  #93  
Old August 18th, 2009, 6:28 pm
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Re: Abortion V.5

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Originally Posted by OldLupin View Post
I believe that information should include the potential emotional effects as well. The decision being made is generally made in a time of anxiety and sometimes fear. The liklihood of regret is very real, especially among young and scared women. It is often easier to see a fetus as "not a life" at 16-20 than when a woman is older, especially once she has had a child. That change in perception has been a cruel punishment for many women, many of whom are fervent pro-life converts because of it.
It can go the other way too. like when a couple just dont want anymore children or dont have the resources to take care of any more


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  #94  
Old August 26th, 2009, 8:05 am
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Re: Abortion V.5

Quote:
Originally Posted by OldLupin View Post
I believe that information should include the potential emotional effects as well. The decision being made is generally made in a time of anxiety and sometimes fear. The liklihood of regret is very real, especially among young and scared women. It is often easier to see a fetus as "not a life" at 16-20 than when a woman is older, especially once she has had a child. That change in perception has been a cruel punishment for many women, many of whom are fervent pro-life converts because of it.
Most research has shown that the majority of women do not regret having abortions. A study conducted in 2000 showed that 80% of women were not depressed after having an abortion, a number nearly equal with depression rates of the general population. And only 1% of women showed any signs of post traumatic stress, which is actually 10% lower than the general population of women at the same ages. The article goes on to mention:
Quote:
Originally Posted by WebMD
Nearly 70% of women reported being satisfied with the decision, and 72% reported more benefit than harm. Of those who reported depression or regret after the abortion, most were depressed or had emotional problems prior to becoming pregnant.
[source]

It seems more fiction than fact that most or even many women have emotional problems after having abortions.



Last edited by Lord Godric; August 26th, 2009 at 8:21 am.
  #95  
Old August 26th, 2009, 8:09 am
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Re: Abortion V.5

It was their decision, so it's hard to believe that there are many emotional problems after it. If it was carried out without their consent, then I would say that depressions are more likely to follow.


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Old August 26th, 2009, 7:34 pm
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Re: Abortion V.5

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Originally Posted by Lord Godric View Post
Most research has shown that the majority of women do not regret having abortions. A study conducted in 2000 showed that 80% of women were not depressed after having an abortion, a number nearly equal with depression rates of the general population. And only 1% of women showed any signs of post traumatic stress, which is actually 10% lower than the general population of women at the same ages. The article goes on to mention: [source]

It seems more fiction than fact that most or even many women have emotional problems after having abortions.
I didn't see, maybe I missed it, but after what duration is this survey asking the question? From some of the text, I get the impression it is a relatively short period of time from the procedure and I don't doubt relief would be the reaction in the short term.

I have met and spoken to too many women who have felt regret to be persuaded by a non-descript survey. Unless this survey is conducted with women who have had abortions at least 8-10 years before the survey and that they were given the specific option of answering the question of regret specifically, I don't know how much this proves. Of course my perspective is partially slanted by personal experiences, but I am not convinced that there isn't significant regrets from women who have later had children as I have had a lot of exposure to women in this situation. That they either don't really exist or are so nominal as to suggest that they are all people with previous emotional issues is pretty unlikely.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tenshi View Post
It was their decision, so it's hard to believe that there are many emotional problems after it. If it was carried out without their consent, then I would say that depressions are more likely to follow.
Voluntary decisions are the root of most regrets for people in general, aren't they? Why would a life and death decision be less likely than any other? People have emotional problems about ending relationships, changing jobs and choosing a school, but the decision of abortion would be unlikely to be regretted? How does that work?


An oposing opinion:

http://www.abortionfacts.com/reardon..._character.asp

Maybe a more current study with differing conclusions?:

http://bjp.rcpsych.org/cgi/content/abstract/193/6/444


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Last edited by OldLupin; August 26th, 2009 at 7:49 pm.
  #97  
Old August 26th, 2009, 9:17 pm
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Re: Abortion V.5

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Originally Posted by OldLupin View Post

Voluntary decisions are the root of most regrets for people in general, aren't they? Why would a life and death decision be less likely than any other? People have emotional problems about ending relationships, changing jobs and choosing a school, but the decision of abortion would be unlikely to be regretted? How does that work?
Of course there's going to be some regret and remorse and not being sure if they made the right decision but what matters is overall was it a good decision?


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  #98  
Old August 26th, 2009, 10:05 pm
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Re: Abortion V.5

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Originally Posted by OldLupin View Post
I didn't see, maybe I missed it, but after what duration is this survey asking the question? From some of the text, I get the impression it is a relatively short period of time from the procedure and I don't doubt relief would be the reaction in the short term.

I have met and spoken to too many women who have felt regret to be persuaded by a non-descript survey. Unless this survey is conducted with women who have had abortions at least 8-10 years before the survey and that they were given the specific option of answering the question of regret specifically, I don't know how much this proves. Of course my perspective is partially slanted by personal experiences, but I am not convinced that there isn't significant regrets from women who have later had children as I have had a lot of exposure to women in this situation. That they either don't really exist or are so nominal as to suggest that they are all people with previous emotional issues is pretty unlikely.



Voluntary decisions are the root of most regrets for people in general, aren't they? Why would a life and death decision be less likely than any other? People have emotional problems about ending relationships, changing jobs and choosing a school, but the decision of abortion would be unlikely to be regretted? How does that work?


An oposing opinion:

http://www.abortionfacts.com/reardon..._character.asp

Maybe a more current study with differing conclusions?:

http://bjp.rcpsych.org/cgi/content/abstract/193/6/444
I assume it is now my turn to question the validity of your sources. Looking at the abortionfacts website you linked, it seems to be a website for Pro-Life supporters. For instance when I clicked on one of the Pro-Choice links regarding rape this is a part of what it linked to:
AbortionFactsWe must approach this with great compassion. The woman has been subjected to an ugly trauma, and she needs love, support and help. But she has been the victim of one violent act. Should we now ask her to be a party to a second violent act -that of abortion? Unquestionably, many would return the violence of killing an innocent baby for the violence of rape. [source]
This is just a small piece of what the rest of the website has to offer to one looking for unbiased facts on abortion.

As for the other link, I can refute it by posting another article showing how regreting abortions aren't common, and everything comes down to the individual (and most likely where there political loyalties lie). Which you can then refute by posting something similar. Facts on abortion can be used for both sides, and when released in an environment as hostile as the abortion debate in the U.S. facts support both pro-life and pro-choice. My original point was that we can't support telling women the "emotional factors of abortion" when they can not be verified and many different viewpoints are out there.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Voldemorts8thHorcrux View Post
Of course there's going to be some regret and remorse and not being sure if they made the right decision but what matters is overall was it a good decision?
Fair point. Even if people regret the decision 30 years later, when they are more than likely in a much better situation than they were when they decided to get the abortion, it doesn't mean it was what shouldn't have happened. Most abortions happen simply because bringing a child into this world is not what is best for anyone -- the mother or the child. And looking back in 30 years, maybe you think you made a mistake, but that still doesn't change the fact that bringing a child into the world when you can not support the child is not always the right decision for everyone.


  #99  
Old August 27th, 2009, 12:07 am
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Re: Abortion V.5

Quote:
Fair point. Even if people regret the decision 30 years later, when they are more than likely in a much better situation than they were when they decided to get the abortion, it doesn't mean it was what shouldn't have happened. Most abortions happen simply because bringing a child into this world is not what is best for anyone -- the mother or the child. And looking back in 30 years, maybe you think you made a mistake, but that still doesn't change the fact that bringing a child into the world when you can not support the child is not always the right decision for everyone.
This is definitely something to bear in mind. For one thing, not everyone has a clear view of the past.

But more importantly, just because someone realizes something in retrospect or has grown doesn't mean that their growth and revelations actually apply to the past. A woman at 50 might have a different view of things than she did at 20, but if the 20 year old is the one who gets pregnant, it's the 20 year old who will have to deal with that. We don't have wisdom and experience that we haven't gotten yet, and if someone has matured over time, they might be able to deal with things differently at 50 than at 20.

That said, I think it's a good idea to have trained professionals on hand to talk to women who are thinking of an abortion, though I don't know that it should be compulsory. But I think that it's important to provide counselors who will listen to and support the woman rather than tell her what to do or skew her choice.


  #100  
Old August 27th, 2009, 2:44 pm
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Re: Abortion V.5

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Originally Posted by Lord Godric View Post
I assume it is now my turn to question the validity of your sources. Looking at the abortionfacts website you linked, it seems to be a website for Pro-Life supporters. For instance when I clicked on one of the Pro-Choice links regarding rape this is a part of what it linked to:
AbortionFactsWe must approach this with great compassion. The woman has been subjected to an ugly trauma, and she needs love, support and help. But she has been the victim of one violent act. Should we now ask her to be a party to a second violent act -that of abortion? Unquestionably, many would return the violence of killing an innocent baby for the violence of rape. [source]
This is just a small piece of what the rest of the website has to offer to one looking for unbiased facts on abortion.

As for the other link, I can refute it by posting another article showing how regreting abortions aren't common, and everything comes down to the individual (and most likely where there political loyalties lie). Which you can then refute by posting something similar. Facts on abortion can be used for both sides, and when released in an environment as hostile as the abortion debate in the U.S. facts support both pro-life and pro-choice. My original point was that we can't support telling women the "emotional factors of abortion" when they can not be verified and many different viewpoints are out there.

Fair point. Even if people regret the decision 30 years later, when they are more than likely in a much better situation than they were when they decided to get the abortion, it doesn't mean it was what shouldn't have happened. Most abortions happen simply because bringing a child into this world is not what is best for anyone -- the mother or the child. And looking back in 30 years, maybe you think you made a mistake, but that still doesn't change the fact that bringing a child into the world when you can not support the child is not always the right decision for everyone.
The study was done by a pro-choice advocate, probably to prove there was no difference in pregnancy outcomes and is worded to minimize, yet shows an effect. That is not boased toward pro-life. Further, I am not pro-life, just pro-common sense and realism and anti-snap decision for life changing choices. I am not advocating making abortion illegal, just making the choice less effected by group belief and more focused on predictable outcomes and problems.

The idea of "not being able to afford a child" is rarely the motivation for abortion as shown by the demographic profile posted a while back by Katsumi. The majority are in socio-economic areas where that isn't the chief concern. Similarly, the rape, incest and danger to mother's life is a small fraction of abortions. The majority were performed on women who had means and were pregnant through voluntary sex with a non-relative and could have carried a baby to term with minimal risk.

That being the case, it would seem a prevailing attitude of abortion being an acceptable means of birth control, despite the fact that it is rarely used multiple times, is the outcome of legality and it is, IMO, being treated very routine considering the actual procedure in question. The arguments based around it being a difficult choice based on dire circumstances are revealed as in reality a very minor portion of the actual justifications being used and I find it repugnant.

Here is an interesting breakdown by a fairly non-partican source with some findings that may add something to this discussion:http://www.thirdway.org/data/product...f_abortion.pdf

In effect this shows that both sides are using examples that don't match reality to make their points and I tend to agree. The breakdown is based on the numbers and may surprise some people. I was surprised at some of the findings and don't actually agree with all of them, but it does make a point I have tried to make several times about the rationales given in this debate.


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