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Abortion V.5



 
 
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  #41  
Old June 20th, 2009, 11:49 pm
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Re: Abortion V.5

I suppose because abortion is undesirable and as such would be better if there were fewer instnces of it.


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  #42  
Old June 20th, 2009, 11:58 pm
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Re: Abortion V.5

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Originally Posted by flimseycauldron View Post
Except for the baby? The baby is a life. I am agnostic so my reason for being pro-life are not based on any sort of religious belief. I believe that to be a misconception that only religious people have the right to be pro-life or have any voice in the debate. It's easy to dismiss religion--not so easy to dismiss morality.
If the child can not live in any other way besides being parasitic to the mother, then no, it's not a life. It will become one, but IMO, unless that child could survive on it's own outside of the womb, it doesn't really have a choice, nor does it have much of a conscious mind to make decisions.

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Originally Posted by leah49 View Post
That's the problem I have. You don't want to deny a woman the right to her body, but basically you're denying a baby to his/her body. I'm not saying a baby's rights should trump the mother's, but why does the mother's automatically get to trump the baby's?
Because without that mother as a carrier the baby would not survive anyway? Or without that mother's egg the baby would never have been conceived?

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Originally Posted by DeliciousMoon View Post
My reasoning is that for one thing, imo it's not a baby, it's just a bundle of cells. The woman also already has an established life that no one is going to argue. She's alive, she can tell people her thoughts and feelings, and if she is able to control where she wants her life to go, I think she should be able to. The embryo is just potential life imo. It is my opinion that a life should be given higher priority than a potential life. A potential life under no circumstances imo, should be given higher priority than an undebatable life.

Also, the only reason I would deny the "baby" a right to his/her body, is because he/she is implanted in someone else's body and is using their food and energy to survive. I think the person who has to make the choice to sacrifice her body to keep another alive should get priority in choosing what she wants to be happy.


  #43  
Old June 21st, 2009, 12:09 am
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Re: Abortion V.5

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Originally Posted by wickedwickedboy View Post
But again, you are arguing for something else using abortion as a proxy, no? I mean what is the purpose of making abortions unnecessary (except medical)? Are you really going after curing "unwanted pregnancies"? If so, why?
Before I respond I want to clarify that my references to abortions that follow will not include the usual exceptions including medical necessity.

Now to answer your question: Because unwanted pregnancies are the problem here. Unwanted abortions are the result of unwanted pregnancies, so going to the source seems like a pretty logical method to me. The purpose of making abortions unnecessary is pretty straightforward, so I don't entirely understand what you're asking. If only the women who want to have children get pregnant then there won't need to be an alternative to abortion--there won't be anything to abort.

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Originally Posted by Yoana View Post
Sorry I meant that with gender equality and all that one would expect women to enjoy some freedoms - including the freedom to not become mothers, and that should surprise or offend nobody. Biological function is all ery well, but we live in a culture-based, not nature-based society (or so I wish anyway).
Oh, no no, no apology necessary, I was just referring to my poor timing.

And well, I certainly can't disagree with you there. And if you read the above portion of my post you'll see (I hope) what I believe here: I think pregnancy is such a major choice and ongoing condition that I would never like to see a woman pregnant unless she wants to have children. Whether they're because of a mistake or because of social pressure to procreate, these pregnancies just aren't beneficial to society. That being said, I do admire women who want to have children too, because it does constitute a sacrifice and procreation is a rather important thing for civilization. I want to have kids some day, so that means at least one woman out there better want to as well. (Well, let's hope so.)

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Originally Posted by Yoana View Post
Oh, so have we. I think most European countries have a problem with a declining population. The thing is though that wherever you live, and whichever country's population you boost by having a child, you also add to the general world population as well.
I'm not sure if that's a useful way to look at the broader issue, though. While global overpopulation is a valid problem to be concerned about, the disparity between birth rates in developing and developed countries is somewhat more alarming than the rate of growth for the whole world. Remember that the freedom not to have children is something of a luxury if you consider how things work in some places. I'm not telling you not to be annoyed by the pressure, but no matter what anyone says to you, nobody will ever be able to force you to have a child.

On a somewhat related but not entirely indicative note, check out this map of birth rates (I think this is a UN map, I ripped it from wikipedia):



Now I'm not claiming that these high birth rates are the result of women being forced to have children, in case anyone construes it that way. But this also brings me back to my response to wickedwickedboy--doesn't it seem like extremely high birth rates in the red and orange countries might not really be a great thing? I wonder what the child mortality and overall death rates are in those countries as well?



Last edited by canismajoris; June 21st, 2009 at 12:18 am.
  #44  
Old June 21st, 2009, 12:17 am
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Re: Abortion V.5

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Originally Posted by canismajoris View Post
Now to answer your question: Because unwanted pregnancies are the problem here. Unwanted abortions are the result of unwanted pregnancies, so going to the source seems like a pretty logical method to me. The purpose of making abortions unnecessary is pretty straightforward, so I don't entirely understand what you're asking. If only the women who want to have children get pregnant then there won't need to be an alternative to abortion--there won't be anything to abort.
So if I understand correctly, you wish to find a cure for unwanted pregnancies - one of which is abortion, but you don't like that method. So you are looking for an alternate method, one of which I am guessing you prefer is prevention.

Assuming the foregoing is true, are there statistics relevant to the number of people who know about prevention but still end up with an unwanted pregnancy? It seems to me, everyone I knew that went through an unwanted pregnancy knew how to prevent it, but simply didn't for one reason or another.

I'm just wondering if education re: prevention would really help in the long run.


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  #45  
Old June 21st, 2009, 12:26 am
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Re: Abortion V.5

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Originally Posted by wickedwickedboy View Post
So if I understand correctly, you wish to find a cure for unwanted pregnancies - one of which is abortion, but you don't like that method. So you are looking for an alternate method, one of which I am guessing you prefer is prevention.
Is there someone who likes abortion? I will be explicit: Abortion is horrible and it would be hard for me to ever support it in an individual case. I also, however, fervently believe that women must be given the choice. But if they are overall better educated and prepared to make the choice before getting pregnant, then everybody wins.

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Originally Posted by wickedwickedboy View Post
Assuming the foregoing is true, are there statistics relevant to the number of people who know about prevention but still end up with an unwanted pregnancy? It seems to me, everyone I knew that went through an unwanted pregnancy knew how to prevent it, but simply didn't for one reason or another.
Well, I know people who have had rather unavoidable pregnancies without intending to. Relying on anecdotes to make decisions about social issues doesn't always work very well, you'll find.

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Originally Posted by wickedwickedboy View Post
I'm just wondering if education re: prevention would really help in the long run.
Compared to doing nothing, how could it not help? What is your suggestion, exactly?


  #46  
Old June 21st, 2009, 12:44 am
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Re: Abortion V.5

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Originally Posted by wickedwickedboy View Post

I'm just wondering if education re: prevention would really help in the long run.
It's hard to tell the future, but I certainly don't see it hurting any.


  #47  
Old June 21st, 2009, 12:48 am
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Re: Abortion V.5

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Originally Posted by canismajoris View Post
All other issues aside, women sort of are obligated to have children unless nobody's going to have children...
Woman's lib let the men get pregnant.

[/tongue-in-cheek]


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  #48  
Old June 21st, 2009, 1:09 am
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Re: Abortion V.5

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Originally Posted by canismajoris View Post
Is there someone who likes abortion? I will be explicit: Abortion is horrible and it would be hard for me to ever support it in an individual case. I also, however, fervently believe that women must be given the choice. But if they are overall better educated and prepared to make the choice before getting pregnant, then everybody wins.
I see, okay. I don't feel the same way you do about abortion in total, no. I would also give women (and men in on the decision) the freedom of choice, but I would not support calling abortion horrible, for many reasons. As to the question of whether or not there is someone who likes abortion; I don't know if you mean the procedure or the practice - and I think some people are split on those ideas (hate the procedure, but like the practice/idea, etc.) - while others are decided on both, in one direction or the other. I prefer to remain completely non-judgmental myself.*

*and I do realize you are not referring to medicinal need.

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Well, I know people who have had rather unavoidable pregnancies without intending to. Relying on anecdotes to make decisions about social issues doesn't always work very well, you'll find.
Actually I said that only to explain that my question arose from indirect experience rather than knowledge based on studies and data. I really don't know the answer - I don't even know if I got the honest truth from those discussing it . It is a pretty private matter for most people.

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Compared to doing nothing, how could it not help? What is your suggestion, exactly?
I don't know that it would hurt, I don't know how many uneducated people there are relative to staving off pregnancy. If there are uneducation people, I'm all for educating them though. I haven't a solution - as I said in the beginning, I don't feel any societal goal should be pursued in this regard - for or against. With the exception of course of passing on information of all types - which would include educational materials.


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Last edited by wickedwickedboy; June 21st, 2009 at 1:31 am.
  #49  
Old June 21st, 2009, 2:43 am
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Re: Abortion V.5

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Originally Posted by Yoana View Post
This is where the big problem with the middle ground people (in-between pro-choice and pro-life, where I believe most of us are) is though - how do we define when a woman really needs an abortion? There are too many opinions and viewpoints on this, almost all of them valid, I have found. Another problem is, if someone is partially pro-choice, like me, where do we draw the line? I personally draw it at the first trimester, but that is more out of a compromise than any substantial reason or any knowledge of foetal development. So, unfortunately, it isn't that simple.
You obviously can determine who needs one or not, as it's a written law. 218a Impunity of Abortion of the Criminal Code in Germany. (tried to find an English version, but failed so far).

According to the other paragraphs which cover the do's and don't of abortion, is an abortion carried out without the consent of a doctor punishable with prison.


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  #50  
Old June 21st, 2009, 3:06 am
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Re: Abortion V.5

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Originally Posted by flimseycauldron View Post
If that were my only issue you may be right. But in conjunction with the life above all arguement it makes perfect sense to me. I don't see how, if something is a life, that anything, including free choice, comes before that. When people make the decision to abort are they comfortable being selfish? Of putting their life first? I would think not. That's why all the hoopla about whether or not the fetus is a life. Once you hang the life tag on the fetus then all of a sudden it makes it much more difficult to give in to those selfish reasons.
I can honestly say I'm okay with making that "selfish" decision (same reason why I'm not giving any money to good causes right now - I want it for myself so that one day I am able to support myself and the life I want), whether it's a "life" or not. I do have different morals than you however.

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We save whole habitats for certain frogs, for instance, because they won't lay eggs anywhere else. If the eggs are just cells then what's the problem? The problem is that those eggs, those cells, are the beginnings of the frogs life. No eggs--no frogs. Extinction. Life is special. In all stages, for the most basic of reasons.
Those frogs are endangered - hence why we might worry about them becoming extinct. Humans are far from becoming extinct - the world is overpopulated with them and we damage it more and more as time goes by. No one wants a species to become extinct.

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As I believe the fetus is a life, and life trumps all, then the baby's rights are far more important. The mother's life was full of choices that she alone could make. The baby has had no choices.
Abortion is just one more choice I think a woman should have. Should we put restrictions on sex so that there are no more unwanted pregnancies?

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If sex is just meant to be with no restrictions then why do we bond with our young?
We can bond with people who we are not sexually attracted to. We can be sexually attracted to people we do not care about. I'm assuming I don't understand your point. Can you explain?

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If people want to argue lack of family support as a viable reason for abortion how can we, as a society, claim that the family unit is not important and deny the role that healthy sex plays in stable family? Why would there not be open marriages and have everyone raise their children together?
Sex can be healthy inside a marriage and family, and sex can be healthy outside of it. Again, I'm a bit confused about your point.

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I addressed this above. As far as compromise. I compromise on an elementary level, but as I said society needs to shift how they view things.
Does "shift on how they view things" not equal "change people's opinions on things"?

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It's like banning trans fats. More and more cities are banning it for the betterment of the population. You could make the arguement that people should be free to choose whether or not to consume trans fats.
But some people could make the argument that abortion is better for society. Some examples for this reasoning could be that more woman get educated and rise higher up in their wanted careers, it reduces the amount of woman being hurt due to illegal backalley abortions, woman can become more equal to men in terms of consequence free sex, and in a small way it helps overpopulation in the world. (That was all imo.)

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That, to me, is purely opinion. As I said above when is a baby magically "alive"? When it looks human? The facts indicated in any elementary school is the life cycle of a variety of animals. From conception forward it is labeled as life. There is not stop in the cycle when voila it is alive when it wasn't before.
Yes, I stated it as opinion.


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  #51  
Old June 21st, 2009, 3:37 am
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Re: Abortion V.5

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Originally Posted by Trixa View Post
I don't think it takes away the choice, it forces people to take responsibility for their own actions which is a good thing, IMO.
But what does that mean, exactly?

You point out yourself that contraception isn't 100% effective. So what happens when a couple honestly tries to be safe, but the condom breaks or the pill fails? What do they need to take responsibility for?

But the problem I have with the responsibility argument is that it uses the baby as a consequence. I'm bothered by the idea that a woman should go through a pregnancy, or, worse, raise a child, only because it's some sort of punishment for making a bad decision. Having a baby is a major responsibility in itself, and if a woman made an irresponsible decision in having unprotected sex, I'm not sure how forcing her to take on a larger responsibility is necessarily wise, especially when it will eventually affect the life of the baby.

And of course, from a pro-choice standpoint, having an abortion could be seen as a way of taking responsibility, in itself.

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Originally Posted by flimseycauldron View Post
When people make the decision to abort are they comfortable being selfish? Of putting their life first? I would think not. That's why all the hoopla about whether or not the fetus is a life. Once you hang the life tag on the fetus then all of a sudden it makes it much more difficult to give in to those selfish reasons.
I agree with you that many people are probably more comfortable believing that the embryo is not alive.

But people do take lives for selfish reasons. Most people eat meat, even if they could choose to get nutrients elsewhere. Most people would probably also be willing to hurt a person who was attacking them.

You mention how people are willing to work to preserve the lives of endangered species. But at the same time, how many people would hold the lives of frogs to be equally important to the lives of humans?

We do make judgments about the worth of life, and it's not an easy thing.

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Pro-choice says that it's okay to place value on human life, if you feel it's in your best interest to do so.
That's rather presumptuous.

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Originally Posted by Melaszka View Post
Unlike even many of the pro-choice posters on CoS, I don't think that having an abortion because a baby would get in the way of your career or lifestyle is "selfish", or at least no more so than a woman going to extraordinary lengths to get a baby (e.g. foreign adoption, IVF treatment). In both cases, they are taking steps to get the lifestyle they want - what's the difference (and has been pointed out on numerous occasions on previous versions of this thread, multiple embryos are often destroyed in the process of IVF. Some people, however, perceive this as being less "selfish", because the woman does it with the intention of having a child. I can't follow that reasoning at all, unless it's based on the assumption that all women should want children, and those who don't conform are somehow "unnatural" or "inferior")?
I'm glad you brought that up. It does feel hypocritical to me. There's more potential for the destruction of life through a single IVF procedure than through a single abortion, yet it seems that the motivations (wanting to have a child) make it acceptable. How is it not selfish to want to be a parent? There's nothing wrong with wanting to be a parent--indeed, it's important that there are people who want that. But it's selfish in that people want it for themselves (there's nothing wrong with that, necessarily--someone who has no personal desire to be a parent would probably not a be a very good one).

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I am so glad we have moved on from the days when all women were expected to marry and have children, regardless of their desire or aptitude for that type of lifestyle, and condemning women who end a pregnancy to have a career as "selfish" to me smacks of the oppressive "one size fits all" ideology (although I do take the point that most of you are quite happy for women to have a career not a family, as long as they don't destroy a foetus/embryo to attain that goal.)
I agree with you. I feel like a lot of the argument boils down to suggesting that a career is not a valid reason for a woman to be unhappy with a pregnancy.

I would not have an abortion lightly, and I would be hesitant to have one if it weren't a matter of health. If I felt I could have the baby and put it up for adoption, I would prefer to do that, if I were in that situation.

But I care greatly about my education and future career. I'm working hard in school so that I can do something with my life that I'll hopefully love. My education is a source of happiness for me--I'm more content with myself now that I'm in college than I've been in years. And one of my biggest goals for my life is to have a wonderful career.

I would be very unhappy to have that interrupted. I'm not sure that I'd have an abortion, but I don't think that my happiness means less because it stems from something other than marriage and children.

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I have ethical reservations about abortions at a relatively advanced stage of pregnancy (after about 4 or 5 months) because by that stage the foetus is developed enough for me to perceive it as a person with its own rights, but I do not believe that "personality" or "life" in any meaningful sense begins at conception and I do not see an embryo of less than 3 months as having the degree of sentience to count as a "person". Sorry to put it so bluntly. I know a lot of you disagree and I do respect that - but I was just trying to make it clear that I'm not inhuman - I wouldn't be advocating abortion on demand if I believed it involved killing conscious beings who could think and feel as a human baby can at birth.
That is pretty much how I view it. If I felt that there was a lot of reason to suggest that early-term abortions caused pain and distress for the embryo, or that the embryo was capable of realizing what was happening, then I would not support that except in cases of emergency. But as it is, I don't think it's nearly that clear-cut. It doesn't mean that an embryo isn't alive, because it is. But it is not the same as a baby or even a more highly-developed fetus.

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Originally Posted by canismajoris View Post
My point is, the expectation that women will have children is not exactly unreasonable. It's kind of hard to avoid, actually, if you've ever been born.
Well, you could say the same thing about men. After all, men are required to make babies, as well.

The difference is, a man's biological role takes less than an hour. A woman must carry the baby for nine months, and, biologically, her body is designed to provide sustenance for the baby for more than a year after birth.

But I think there's some unfair sociological inequality. Both men and women are necessary, on a basic level, to create a baby. But a man generally does not face as much judgment for choosing not to have children, or to focus more on his career or other pursuits than fatherhood, than a woman does for choosing not to be a mother.

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Originally Posted by Tenshi View Post
You obviously can determine who needs one or not, as it's a written law. 218a Impunity of Abortion of the Criminal Code in Germany. (tried to find an English version, but failed so far).
So the fact that it is a law means that we can't question it?


  #52  
Old June 21st, 2009, 6:09 am
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Re: Abortion V.5

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Originally Posted by DancingMaenid View Post
So the fact that it is a law means that we can't question it?
Of course can you question it, but I merely tried to point out that you in fact can draw a line and say if an abortion is necessary or not. People before said you can't say that this woman can have one and this one not and looks like you can.


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  #53  
Old June 21st, 2009, 6:13 am
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Re: Abortion V.5

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Originally Posted by DancingMaenid View Post
Well, you could say the same thing about men. After all, men are required to make babies, as well.
Men are required to fertilize an egg, not to carry a pregnancy to term and deliver a baby.


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Old June 21st, 2009, 6:41 am
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Re: Abortion V.5

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Originally Posted by Rell View Post
4. What are some ways in which both sides can work together to reduce the number of abortions? What compromises would have to be made to make this happen? Better education to teach teenagers how to prevent pregnancy, Assistance to poorer people (and to people in poorer countries) in obtaining birth control and education, better monetary and emotional support for parents who decide to keep their baby. 5. Do you think that it's realistic that both sides will be able to work together to reduce the number of abortions? Why or why not? I think that both sides need to realize that they have some common goals. I don't know very many people who like abortions even if they are pro-choice. If people realize that most of us have the goal of reducing abortions, then we can work towards that goal. My ultimate goal would be to stop abortions altogether except under the extreme circumstances that I described above. However, reducing abortions is a step in that direction.
See that's the problem I have. We rather should focus on improving the situations for mothers and children, on the reasons why there are abortions. Allowing abortion numbers to rise does not help at all, as the problems that cause them still exists.


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  #55  
Old June 21st, 2009, 8:11 am
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Re: Abortion V.5

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Originally Posted by Tenshi View Post
Of course can you question it, but I merely tried to point out that you in fact can draw a line and say if an abortion is necessary or not. People before said you can't say that this woman can have one and this one not and looks like you can.
But if I can question the law, then I can question whether or not the government has the right or the ability to decide whether or not a woman is justified in ending her pregnancy. Yes, you can draw a line and judge whether or not a woman is justified in having an abortion. It doesn't mean the line is necessarily correct, or that the judgment is correct.

Which is why I'm pro choice in a nutshell.

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Originally Posted by canismajoris View Post
Men are required to fertilize an egg, not to carry a pregnancy to term and deliver a baby.
And that's what I said. However, there's less sociological pressure these days, I believe, for men to fertilize eggs than there is for women to get pregnant. Shoot, it even seems more commonplace for men to get vasectomies than for women to get their tubes tied.


  #56  
Old June 21st, 2009, 10:58 am
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Re: Abortion V.5

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Originally Posted by Tenshi View Post
You obviously can determine who needs one or not, as it's a written law. 218a Impunity of Abortion of the Criminal Code in Germany. (tried to find an English version, but failed so far).

According to the other paragraphs which cover the do's and don't of abortion, is an abortion carried out without the consent of a doctor punishable with prison.
But that is, 1. not valid in other places, and 2. amendable. It is by no means final or perfect. I can't buy that a law can sweepingly determine for all women what constitutes real need for them and what doesn't. My law says that if a woman wants an abortion, she probably needs it, so abortions are legal up to the 3rd month. There are two different definitions of need, who is to say which one is better?


  #57  
Old June 21st, 2009, 11:57 am
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Re: Abortion V.5

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Originally Posted by Yoana View Post
But that is, 1. not valid in other places, and 2. amendable. It is by no means final or perfect. I can't buy that a law can sweepingly determine for all women what constitutes real need for them and what doesn't. My law says that if a woman wants an abortion, she probably needs it, so abortions are legal up to the 3rd month. There are two different definitions of need, who is to say which one is better?
Of course it's not the best solution for you, as our opinion in this matter are different. There can be hardly any solution where both parties are fully satisfied.

I see a great difference between "wanting" and "needing". Even if they want it, that doesn't necessarily mean that they need it at all. I'm not sure what you mean with two different definitions.


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  #58  
Old June 21st, 2009, 12:37 pm
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Re: Abortion V.5

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Originally Posted by Lord Godric View Post
If the child can not live in any other way besides being parasitic to the mother, then no, it's not a life. It will become one, but IMO, unless that child could survive on it's own outside of the womb, it doesn't really have a choice, nor does it have much of a conscious mind to make decisions.

Without a mother's care for about 18 years the "baby" wouldn't survive. For real though it's parasitic for at least the first year or so. It might be able to breath but wouldn't last long without external influence. At what point does it quit being a parasite? Mobility maybe at a year or so? Ability to survive doesn't seem a good line to make unless you're also willing to accept that line could go well into childhood.


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Jefferson in letter to William Ludlow

If the Government is big enough to give you everything you want, it is big enough to take away everything you have.
  #59  
Old June 21st, 2009, 2:24 pm
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Re: Abortion V.5

Quote:
Originally Posted by grams View Post
Without a mother's care for about 18 years the "baby" wouldn't survive. For real though it's parasitic for at least the first year or so. It might be able to breath but wouldn't last long without external influence. At what point does it quit being a parasite?
Once outside the womb, it doesn't fiit the definition of parasite. Once it can be transferred somewhere else (if that's possible), I no longer support abortion, because it becomes unnecessary.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tenshi View Post
Of course it's not the best solution for you, as our opinion in this matter are different. There can be hardly any solution where both parties are fully satisfied.

I see a great difference between "wanting" and "needing". Even if they want it, that doesn't necessarily mean that they need it at all. I'm not sure what you mean with two different definitions.
I mean that your law has certain crietria for when abortion is acceptable and mine has a different one. Since you pointed at law as defining when a woman needs an abortion, I'm just pointing out that las differ in different places and in different times. So while your law may stipulate certain conditions and you accept them as the right definition for needing abortion, mine says otherwise.


  #60  
Old June 21st, 2009, 5:01 pm
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Re: Abortion V.5

Quote:
Originally Posted by DancingMaenid View Post
And that's what I said. However, there's less sociological pressure these days, I believe, for men to fertilize eggs than there is for women to get pregnant. Shoot, it even seems more commonplace for men to get vasectomies than for women to get their tubes tied.
I think there is less pressure in the long term because men can actually wait so much longer than women to make the decision - unless they have a mate they wish to have children with, then they are subject to her timetable.

I think more emphasis should be placed on males relative to the abortion issue. The focus is largely placed on the women because it is her body and she must undergo the bulk of the hardship during pregnancy. However, traditional fertilization takes two, and if the child is aborted by the mother, the prospective father loses a child as well. If the child is carried to term, suddenly the focus is shined brightly on the male again regarding support.

To me the whole ideology underlying the current flow of thought, at least from a legal angle, is quite flippant and disregarding when it comes to the father of the unborn child. He doesn't have to be in on the abortion decision at all - or even informed. I think this actually hurts in the long run because males knowing that they have few if any rights relative to the abortion decision, the issue becomes "her problem" and frankly, I think it can lead to a neglect among some males when it comes to taking responsibility for preventative measures.

This is one of the reasons I don't support a societal goal with respect to the abortion issue. I don't feel the responsibility relative to the issue is equally distributed. While I do appreciate the woman requiring autonomy in certian situations, eliminating the males from the process completely places way too much onus on the females, imo, even if it is still suggested that abortion is an equal opportunity problem; to me that is not altogether true.


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Last edited by wickedwickedboy; June 21st, 2009 at 5:04 pm.
 
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