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Good and Evil: how do people become either way?



 
 
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  #61  
Old July 27th, 2010, 6:10 am
Midnightsfire  Undisclosed.gif Midnightsfire is offline
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Re: Good and Evil: how do people become either way?

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Originally Posted by Hysteria View Post
You can't just claim insanity and get away with something.
It says something about the nature of evil when you claim insanity when you aren't.


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  #62  
Old July 27th, 2010, 6:13 am
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Re: Good and Evil: how do people become either way?

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Originally Posted by Midnightsfire View Post
It says something about the nature of evil when you claim insanity when you aren't.
I agree, it's despicable.


  #63  
Old July 27th, 2010, 8:16 am
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Re: Good and Evil: how do people become either way?

Certainly not where I'm from. Diminished responsibility can be a mitigating fcator but not a get out of gaol free card. Genuine mental illness usually means involuntary commitment which can last longer than a prison sentence.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MuggleGirl09
I see your point of view, but having blue eyes and being born evil are two completely different things.
Not if it is inherent as you argue.


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  #64  
Old July 27th, 2010, 12:24 pm
MuggleGirl09  Female.gif MuggleGirl09 is offline
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Re: Good and Evil: how do people become either way?

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Originally Posted by Hysteria View Post
If someone has a mental or intellectual disability, shoudn't they get treatment rather than punished? I mean, if they're not able to control what they say/do because of this illness, how is punishment going to help?
Of course if someone has a mental illness, yes treat them and help them of course so that they can become better people in society and be a better person for themselves. I am all for helping people, it's what I plan to do with my life. However just like anyone, if they mentally of physically hurt another human being or beings they should be punished in some form, just like anyone else. That is not the way to treat your fellow man and they should be punished for it if they do those things.

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Originally Posted by Wab View Post
Certainly not where I'm from. Diminished responsibility can be a mitigating fcator but not a get out of gaol free card. Genuine mental illness usually means involuntary commitment which can last longer than a prison sentence.



Not if it is inherent as you argue.
I do see your side of this discussion. I view all ideas and thoughts different from mine and respect them however, I believe something different just as you do, and that is perfectly fine.


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  #65  
Old July 27th, 2010, 12:53 pm
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Re: Good and Evil: how do people become either way?

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Originally Posted by MuggleGirl09 View Post
Of course if someone has a mental illness, yes treat them and help them of course so that they can become better people in society and be a better person for themselves. I am all for helping people, it's what I plan to do with my life. However just like anyone, if they mentally of physically hurt another human being or beings they should be punished in some form, just like anyone else. That is not the way to treat your fellow man and they should be punished for it if they do those things
Even if it's not their fault?


  #66  
Old July 27th, 2010, 2:18 pm
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Re: Good and Evil: how do people become either way?

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Originally Posted by Hysteria View Post
Even if it's not their fault?
If they haven't hurt anyone no. I feel for those who are born with mental illness because they are trapped inside of themselves however like I said, they hurt others they deserve to be punished. It's a reason because they have an illness but not an excuse. If someone with a mental illness hurt one of my family members whether mentally or physically, it's not going to matter to me what is wrong with them, or if it's not their "fault." They still hurt them, and should be punished for it. Every bad action has it's consequences and that goes for everyone.


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  #67  
Old July 27th, 2010, 2:29 pm
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Re: Good and Evil: how do people become either way?

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Originally Posted by MuggleGirl09 View Post
If they haven't hurt anyone no. I feel for those who are born with mental illness because they are trapped inside of themselves however like I said, they hurt others they deserve to be punished. It's a reason because they have an illness but not an excuse. If someone with a mental illness hurt one of my family members whether mentally or physically, it's not going to matter to me what is wrong with them, or if it's not their "fault." They still hurt them, and should be punished for it. Every bad action has it's consequences and that goes for everyone.
Wow ok. But if someone (for example) kills a person, but they were mentally incapable of forming any kind of intent, that doesn't satisfy mens rea (I looked this up and looks like there isn't mens rea as such in the US, but something similar) so they couldn't be found guilty of murder. Then you'd probably go down to manslaughter, but still, it wasn't negligent, or even an accident. If someone cannot form the mental capacity to perform an action, I just don't understand how they can be held accountable for it, no matter how evil.

I believe in holding people responsible for their actions. If someone commits a terrible crime, by all means, lock them up. But only after going through the legal system fairly. IMO it is not at all fair to put a mentally differently-able person in gaol alongside those who kill with intent, knowing full well what they were doing. It's cruel and serves no purpose IMO. (I'm also not saying let them go, but give them treatment, even if it means under 24/7 surveillance at a facility).


  #68  
Old July 27th, 2010, 2:42 pm
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Re: Good and Evil: how do people become either way?

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Originally Posted by Hysteria View Post
Wow ok. But if someone (for example) kills a person, but they were mentally incapable of forming any kind of intent, that doesn't satisfy mens rea (I looked this up and looks like there isn't mens rea as such in the US, but something similar) so they couldn't be found guilty of murder. Then you'd probably go down to manslaughter, but still, it wasn't negligent, or even an accident. If someone cannot form the mental capacity to perform an action, I just don't understand how they can be held accountable for it, no matter how evil.

I believe in holding people responsible for their actions. If someone commits a terrible crime, by all means, lock them up. But only after going through the legal system fairly. IMO it is not at all fair to put a mentally differently-able person in gaol alongside those who kill with intent, knowing full well what they were doing. It's cruel and serves no purpose IMO. (I'm also not saying let them go, but give them treatment, even if it means under 24/7 surveillance at a facility).
There are those mentally ill people who DO know what they are doing though. I have encountered it in my life before. Not saying all have the intent to hurt people, but there ARE those who do have the intent to hurt someone, and have a plan is what i'm saying. Those who have intent to hurt someone should deserve more punishment than others.


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  #69  
Old July 27th, 2010, 2:49 pm
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Re: Good and Evil: how do people become either way?

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Originally Posted by MuggleGirl09 View Post
There are those mentally ill people who DO know what they are doing though. I have encountered it in my life before. Not saying all have the intent to hurt people, but there ARE those who do have the intent to hurt someone, and have a plan is what i'm saying. Those who have intent to hurt someone should deserve more punishment than others.
Yes but you said:
Quote:
Of course if someone has a mental illness, yes treat them and help them of course so that they can become better people in society and be a better person for themselves. I am all for helping people, it's what I plan to do with my life. However just like anyone, if they mentally of physically hurt another human being or beings they should be punished in some form, just like anyone else. That is not the way to treat your fellow man and they should be punished for it if they do those things.
Not all people with mental disabilities suffer with them on the same level. Some are well aware of their actions. I am talking about those who are not (I thought that was clear). Those who are not able to control their actions because of a mental illness. It's not a golden ticket or a free ride, but if someoen isn't capable of forming intent or isn't aware of their actions because of something out of their control (like mental illness) there is no point in putting them in gaol IMO. They may still be capable of evil acts, but that in itself does not make them evil IMO.

ETA: Anyway, that's my opinion. I don't think people are born evil (ever) except in cases of mental illness which could cause people to do evil things, but IMO that doesn't make the people themselves evil (if there's no intent).



Last edited by Hysteria; July 27th, 2010 at 3:07 pm.
  #70  
Old July 27th, 2010, 3:11 pm
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Re: Good and Evil: how do people become either way?

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Originally Posted by Hysteria View Post
They may still be capable of evil acts, but that in itself does not make them evil IMO.
And when do we stop overanalyzing and start judging by one's actions?

I have known of some cases where a mental problem was indeed the issue, but it seems that some seem to think that all evil is is nothing more (or less) that mental instability. And with that line of reasoning criminals would never be imprisoned, (or subject to harsher penalties).


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  #71  
Old July 27th, 2010, 3:44 pm
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Re: Good and Evil: how do people become either way?

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Originally Posted by Midnightsfire View Post
And when do we stop overanalyzing and start judging by one's actions?

I have known of some cases where a mental problem was indeed the issue, but it seems that some seem to think that all evil is is nothing more (or less) that mental instability. And with that line of reasoning criminals would never be imprisoned, (or subject to harsher penalties).
I really don't want to keep repeating myself so I'll sum up and jump ship.
In my opinion it is unethical and pointless to put someone who is not in control of their actions in gaol. It's cruel and unusual. To me there is a big difference between evil acts and evil people, not everyone sees it that way, fine.
If I'm driving along at night and a kangaroo hops infront of my car, I hit it and it dies, does that make me a kangaroo murderer? Does it mean I hate animals? No, of course not. It wasn't my fault. I didn't have any intent at all to harm it, it was out of my control. Now, before anyone says anything, I'm not equaiting the death of a kangaroo with one of a human, but in the cases I've been talking about, there was the same amount of intent and awareness, none. Should I get lumped in with those who willfully hunt down and kill kangaroos?

If someone is sane and not suffering from any kind of mental illness that impares their judgement or makes them incapable of forming the intent to commit an evil act they deserve prison. Most of the criminal population, do not seem to suffer from mental disabilities, and are in gaol where they belong (IMO).

I think it was you who mentioned Jeffrey Dahmer before? He was an evil person and deserved life in prison (I couldn't possibly say it was a good thing he died). He was, IMO, evil and did evil things and he knew what he was doing was wrong. That is not the same as the kinds of people I was talking about in my past posts (which all more or less say the same thing, this).



Last edited by Hysteria; July 27th, 2010 at 3:46 pm.
  #72  
Old July 27th, 2010, 6:42 pm
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Re: Good and Evil: how do people become either way?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Midnightsfire View Post
And when do we stop overanalyzing and start judging by one's actions?

I have known of some cases where a mental problem was indeed the issue, but it seems that some seem to think that all evil is is nothing more (or less) that mental instability. And with that line of reasoning criminals would never be imprisoned, (or subject to harsher penalties).
This sort of reminds me of an American article I read about children as young as 13 who will spend the rest of their life in prison without the possibility of parole. And not even for murder... It was more for armed burglary..

http://www.reuters.com/article/idUSN1045443520080321

I think if you want to judge people by their actions you need to first find out if people are capable of judging their own actions. What is the point of locking someone up for the rest of his life, when that person can't oversee his own actions. When that person may act in a rage but doesn't understand what the result is of what he does.

People who are perfectly sane... Fine, lock them up. But let's not loose our own humanity in our desire too punish all the "bad people".


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  #73  
Old July 27th, 2010, 9:40 pm
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Re: Good and Evil: how do people become either way?

I think there is a genetic basis for morality (perhaps through the medium of empathy, etc) which has been naturally selected over our history, so that the majority of people are inherently good, however society has such an influence as to make this inherent morality hidden in some people, or people can be brainwashed to desert their morality (usually on religious grounds - "There will always be good people doing good things and bad people doing bad things, but for good people to to bad things, that takes religion"). Some people whose emotional development has been stunted by neglect or abuse may never develop their natural morality, and these people are psychopaths (this is all my opinion - I don't have much knowledge of psychology, so please forgive any inaccuracies). There's probably a genetic basis for how easily led we are (the difference perhaps between Harry and Voldemort, who after all, had equally horrible upbringings? Harry's parents were strong-minded people, Voldemort's family was basically weak. Just using this as an illustration; Harry Potter obviously has no bearing on scientific truth ), the combination which could produce the worst people being: genetically very easily led, and surrounded by a desperate environment - bad upbringing, deprived, etc.


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  #74  
Old July 27th, 2010, 9:46 pm
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Re: Good and Evil: how do people become either way?

I definitely feel it has to do with both. But I think nurture has more to do with it.

Someone may be born with a tendency to be good. They may grow up with a nice nature. But, we adapt/ tend to act like and copy those around us, don't we?

But nurture.. If that child is good, but grows up surrounded by bad people, they are going to learn their ways, and therefore have more of a tendency to be bad.

Also, someone could be kind and good their whole life; but have something very traumatic happen that could render them completely . You never know.


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  #75  
Old July 30th, 2010, 3:24 am
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Re: Good and Evil: how do people become either way?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hysteria View Post
Yes but you said:


Not all people with mental disabilities suffer with them on the same level. Some are well aware of their actions. I am talking about those who are not (I thought that was clear). Those who are not able to control their actions because of a mental illness. It's not a golden ticket or a free ride, but if someoen isn't capable of forming intent or isn't aware of their actions because of something out of their control (like mental illness) there is no point in putting them in gaol IMO. They may still be capable of evil acts, but that in itself does not make them evil IMO.

ETA: Anyway, that's my opinion. I don't think people are born evil (ever) except in cases of mental illness which could cause people to do evil things, but IMO that doesn't make the people themselves evil (if there's no intent).
I know not all people suffer with mental illnesses are on the same level. I have studied this and have encountered people in my life like this. I am also not saying in anyway if you have a mental illness that automatically makes you an evil person. But, if a person with a mental illness does perform bad, evil acts, they should be punished like everyone else whether they intended to or not, there are consequences for actions. Just as children get grounded or privileges taken away. They might not mean to do something, but there are still consequences for one's actions. Mental illness does not equal an evil person, but I do believe that some people are just born evil...I'm done.


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  #76  
Old July 30th, 2010, 6:30 pm
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Re: Good and Evil: how do people become either way?

Quote:
Originally Posted by MuggleGirl09 View Post
I know not all people suffer with mental illnesses are on the same level. I have studied this and have encountered people in my life like this. I am also not saying in anyway if you have a mental illness that automatically makes you an evil person. But, if a person with a mental illness does perform bad, evil acts, they should be punished like everyone else whether they intended to or not, there are consequences for actions. Just as children get grounded or privileges taken away. They might not mean to do something, but there are still consequences for one's actions. Mental illness does not equal an evil person, but I do believe that some people are just born evil...I'm done.
IMO mentally ill people need to be corrected not punished. Simply putting them in the slammer won't work. They need treatment to get over their condition.



Last edited by wolfbrother; July 31st, 2010 at 4:04 pm.
  #77  
Old July 30th, 2010, 10:38 pm
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Re: Good and Evil: how do people become either way?

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Originally Posted by wolfbrother View Post
IMO mentally ill people need to be corrected not punished. Simple putting them in the slammer won't work. They need treatment to get over their condition.
I know this process. They need help as well. And never stated that mentally ill people should be put into the slammer at all.


I love to help people in need, so much. It is my calling in life and planning to do just that with my life and be a psychologist...I feel for people as well. And, I never said that if you are mentally ill, you are evil. All I stated in the beginning is that I do believe that some people are born evil, they don't have to have a mental illness. I believe they should be helped and treated and learn how to control their illness. But, just said if any person of any state of mind do something wrong, there is a consequence..Whether a "sane" person gets locked up, a mentally ill person has to go on trial and be in a hospital...If you do something wrong there are consequences for actions. I think I stated my opinion enough, so officially done. I respect all of your thoughts as well, so thanks for a good discussion.


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Last edited by MuggleGirl09; July 31st, 2010 at 1:01 pm.
 
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