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  #81  
Old July 31st, 2009, 8:10 am
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Re: U.S. Second Amendment: post-Heller

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Originally Posted by KDOG View Post
ALSO if you want to look at crime figures. The UK since implementing gun control has seen a quick rise in crime and violence whereas the US is quite good (compared to the big scare of rise in violence in the 90s). The deterrent factor is legit.
No it's not.

Following the world's worst mass shooting at Port Arthur in 1996 Australia's government (led by the most conservative leader we've ever had) imposed the strictest gun laws in the western world and initiated a buy-back which saw 700,000 weapons handed in.

In the years following the buy-back, the already low and declining rate of gun deaths accelerated and there have been no massacres.

Quote:
Originally Posted by CSIRO
In Australia, each of these firearm caused deaths has declined markedly since 1977, but the rate of decline has been most dramatic since 1996.

Firearm suicides have fallen by an average of 12.81 per year between 19791999, but by 20.33 per year in the three years since 1996. In the same period firearm homicides have fallen by 2.23 per year, but by 9.67 per
year in the years since the reforms.

CSIRO
Quote:
Originally Posted by Professor Simon Chapman
Not only were Australia's post-Port Arthur gun laws followed by a decade in which the crime they were designed to reduce hasn't happened again, but we also saw a life-saving bonus: the decline in overall gun deaths accelerated to twice the rate seen before the new gun laws.

University of Sydney


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  #82  
Old July 31st, 2009, 5:24 pm
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Re: U.S. Second Amendment: post-Heller

[quote=purplehawk;5378475
I despised Bush. No point denying it. I worked my behind off to send him home early in 2004, but violent revolution never once occurred to me. I just worked harder for a Democratic president four years later. That's the beauty of the United States of America: the peaceful transfer of power every few years. It's remarkable how our founding documents provided for that.
[/QUOTE]

But the Bill of Rights is just as important to what the founding fathers wanted for America as the Constitution. In fact, the Constitution would've never been adopted if Americans didn't have the knowledge that they would have those amendment protecting their basic rights as a citizen, one of those being the right to bear arms. Whether or not the government has way more powerful weaponry or not, guns are a force to be reckoned with. And besides, revolt against a corrupt government isn't the only thing that's possible in the future. There is also the government falling into shambles and Americans have to organize their own militias to protect themselves, domestic terrorism, terrorism in general, gang wars, individual criminals. Police dont come in the seconds after you call 911, they take at least a few minutes, depending on how far they are. And you only need one bullet to kill, a machine gun only ups your chances of it. And even a very weak gun can still shoot bullets that can paralyze people with pain, even if only temporarily.


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  #83  
Old July 31st, 2009, 5:57 pm
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Re: U.S. Second Amendment: post-Heller

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Americans have to organize their own militias to protect themselves, domestic terrorism, terrorism in general, gang wars, individual criminals. Police dont come in the seconds after you call 911, they take at least a few minutes, depending on how far they are. And you only need one bullet to kill, a machine gun only ups your chances of it. And even a very weak gun can still shoot bullets that can paralyze people with pain, even if only temporarily.
When is the last time you heard of a private militia or even a private citizen taking on an incident of domestic terrorism, terrorism in general or gang wars? Other than in a Charles Bronson or Clint Eastwood movie, I mean?


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  #84  
Old July 31st, 2009, 6:13 pm
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Re: U.S. Second Amendment: post-Heller

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When is the last time you heard of a private militia or even a private citizen taking on an incident of domestic terrorism, terrorism in general or gang wars? Other than in a Charles Bronson or Clint Eastwood movie, I mean?
i'm not saying that it has happened, i'm saying that anything and everything is possible in the future, even if it's unlikely


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  #85  
Old July 31st, 2009, 8:37 pm
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Re: U.S. Second Amendment: post-Heller

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i'm not saying that it has happened, i'm saying that anything and everything is possible in the future, even if it's unlikely
I don't think "unlikely" scenarios are good enough reasons to justify so many gunshot deaths as mere collateral damage.

I've been thinking about things that could be done to tighten-up gun control laws. The assault weapons ban should be reinstated, for starters. Another bit I'd like to see is the requirement that anyone applying for a gun permit has to undergo a full psychological screening at his or her own expense. The screening, however, should be 100% the same in all 50 states.

These are just my personal thoughts.


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  #86  
Old July 31st, 2009, 9:28 pm
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Re: U.S. Second Amendment: post-Heller

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Originally Posted by purplehawk View Post
I don't think "unlikely" scenarios are good enough reasons to justify so many gunshot deaths as mere collateral damage.
Well, the founding fathers clearly thought that guns still should be allowed, even if they were the ones writing the constitution that was supposed to make the government fair

And the fact that people get attacked is NOT unlikely, and i would like to see people having something to be able to protect themselves because the other side aren't going to be people who are going to care about laws


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  #87  
Old August 1st, 2009, 2:38 am
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Re: U.S. Second Amendment: post-Heller

I think quite a few people tend to ignore the most basic problem with gun control in the US: How do you enforce it? The oft-repeated line "They can have my gun when they pry it from my cold dead fingers" isn't always a bluff. Trying to outlaw firearms may work for some countries, but in the US it could very easily spark a civil war.


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Old August 1st, 2009, 2:41 am
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Re: U.S. Second Amendment: post-Heller

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Originally Posted by WitchHunter View Post
I think quite a few people tend to ignore the most basic problem with gun control in the US: How do you enforce it? The oft-repeated line "They can have my gun when they pry it from my cold dead fingers" isn't always a bluff. Trying to outlaw firearms may work for some countries, but in the US it could very easily spark a civil war.
I can't disagree with you there. I wish I could, though.


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  #89  
Old August 1st, 2009, 3:11 am
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Re: U.S. Second Amendment: post-Heller

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Originally Posted by Voldemorts8thHorcrux View Post
Well, the founding fathers clearly thought that guns still should be allowed, even if they were the ones writing the constitution that was supposed to make the government fair
They also thought that slavery was pretty nifty and that the vote should be limited to a select few -- rich white men.


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  #90  
Old August 1st, 2009, 6:49 am
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Re: U.S. Second Amendment: post-Heller

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Originally Posted by WitchHunter View Post
I think quite a few people tend to ignore the most basic problem with gun control in the US: How do you enforce it? The oft-repeated line "They can have my gun when they pry it from my cold dead fingers" isn't always a bluff. Trying to outlaw firearms may work for some countries, but in the US it could very easily spark a civil war.
Yes I too can see major problems if they tried to ban guns outright.

I am moderate on guns in general. I grew up around guns. My father hunted and he also had a handgun for protection. I see nothing wrong with owning either a rifle or a handgun. I do think that some form of gun control is good common sense though.

Obviously what use does the average citiizen need in owning a machine gun? Or any kind of explosives for that matter (grenades). I mean some kind of standard has to be applied or else you run real risks.


  #91  
Old August 1st, 2009, 7:20 am
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Re: U.S. Second Amendment: post-Heller

We're experiencing the reality of that risk right now!


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  #92  
Old August 1st, 2009, 4:32 pm
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Re: U.S. Second Amendment: post-Heller

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Yes I too can see major problems if they tried to ban guns outright.

I am moderate on guns in general. I grew up around guns. My father hunted and he also had a handgun for protection. I see nothing wrong with owning either a rifle or a handgun. I do think that some form of gun control is good common sense though.

Obviously what use does the average citiizen need in owning a machine gun? Or any kind of explosives for that matter (grenades). I mean some kind of standard has to be applied or else you run real risks.


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  #93  
Old August 1st, 2009, 7:58 pm
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Re: U.S. Second Amendment: post-Heller

We have some of the dopiest politicians on the planet. Senator John Thune (R-SD) said during a debate this week that if people from his state were able to go to New York and visit tourist attractions while carrying their concealed weapons, "Central Park would be a much safer place." Take it away, Gail Collins:

Gail Collins, The New York TimesThis suggests how much Americans have to learn about each other. Central Park is way safer than South Dakota. There were no murders and three serious assaults in Central Park in 2008, compared with five murders and 341 assaults in Sioux Falls alone. There was a horrible near-fatality in the park this week, but it involved a rotting tree limb that fell and hit a man on the head. If South Dakotans would like to come to visit carrying concealed chain saws, it is possible that we can do some business.


Have Gun, Will Travel

I don't think it would be too far out of line to require our senators and representatives to at least have a clue what they're talking about. Central Park doesn't need vigilantes with concealed weapons; however, South Dakota needs some kind of help by way of a senator who's knowledgeable about more than what's right under his nose.


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  #94  
Old August 1st, 2009, 8:17 pm
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Re: U.S. Second Amendment: post-Heller

I've lived both in metropolitan AND rural settings. One thing that has struck me (my experience) is the differences of both groups. The needs are different in the city and in a rural setting. I have some friends who've never lived in the "country" that do not get the rural mindset of guns there. I have friends in the country who do not get the mindset of those that live in the metropolitan areas (who have different concerns and needs).

I think, to be able to navigate some of the issues surrounding gun control, the needs of both need to be cross-understood and also accepted that they are different needs for each community! What works in the country, doesn't necessarily work in the city and vice-versa. Mutual respect for the needs of both, while still addressing issues of both, is going to have to be worked out.


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Old August 1st, 2009, 8:17 pm
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Re: U.S. Second Amendment: post-Heller

Take a look at the UK. I'm not saying they're a really dangerous place or anything, but from what I hear there has a been rise in knivings. You can take away the guns, but if people want to hurt each other they're going to find ways to do it. Kids in school use things like ruler edges and pencils.

And I agree with what Redhart said in the post above this.


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  #96  
Old August 1st, 2009, 8:20 pm
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Re: U.S. Second Amendment: post-Heller

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Originally Posted by purplehawk View Post
South Dakota needs some kind of help by way of a senator who's knowledgeable about more than what's right under his nose.
Good luck finding somebody like that in South Dakota.


  #97  
Old August 1st, 2009, 8:52 pm
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Re: U.S. Second Amendment: post-Heller

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Take a look at the UK. I'm not saying they're a really dangerous place or anything, but from what I hear there has a been rise in knivings. You can take away the guns, but if people want to hurt each other they're going to find ways to do it. Kids in school use things like ruler edges and pencils.

And I agree with what Redhart said in the post above this.
heh, it's possible to hurt someone with anything really. A well thrown baseball can break an arm, baseball bats, lacrosse sticks, golf clubs, and that's just in average sports. And in school, i have seen compasses required for math that have pointy ends like 3 inches long and made of metal that i have actually seen go through 2 inch plywood, binders can do pretty painful things, i could go on and on about everyday objects that can even kill people


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  #98  
Old August 1st, 2009, 11:22 pm
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Re: U.S. Second Amendment: post-Heller

Nothing does it more efficiently than guns, though. I'm of the opinion that's the reason the NRA became what it is, rather than the NKA.


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  #99  
Old August 2nd, 2009, 12:35 am
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Re: U.S. Second Amendment: post-Heller

Actually, i'm of the opinion that nothing does it as far range than a gun. A gun is more of hit and miss, you either have to puncture vital organs or arteries, in a relatively small area , but with knives you get longer wounds that are much worse when infected. but then again with guns you actually have to get the bullet out. What IS scary about guns is that basically anyone can use them and if they're bad at aiming, it's easier to hurt innocent bystanders at a distance


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  #100  
Old August 2nd, 2009, 12:56 am
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Re: U.S. Second Amendment: post-Heller

I still go back to the purpose for which a gun is intended: to kill.


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