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The Relationship Between Science and Religion



 
 
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  #61  
Old February 1st, 2008, 3:54 pm
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Re: The Relationship Between Science and Religion

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Originally Posted by Wab View Post
On the other hand Gregor Mendel was a monk when he was doing his work on genetics.
But one of the reasons why his work was forgotten for nearly 40 years was that his superiors asked him to either discontinue his research or leave the monastery. He discontinued and never published a second paper.

Anyway this thread was originally about here and now plus the future. Let's keep it that way. All those efforts by the Roman Catholic Church to intervene in science are history now.


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  #62  
Old February 1st, 2008, 3:55 pm
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Re: The Relationship Between Science and Religion

Eh...sorry.


  #63  
Old February 1st, 2008, 9:34 pm
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Re: The Relationship Between Science and Religion

I think the division between religion and science in history is important to this discussion, because it is based on that that the two are still divided today. Even in ChParadise's first post, the first two sentences discuss the history of the divide, and the second question asked is about the relationship between the two in the past.


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  #64  
Old February 1st, 2008, 11:28 pm
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Re: The Relationship Between Science and Religion

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Originally Posted by Tiberius View Post
I think the division between religion and science in history is important to this discussion, because it is based on that that the two are still divided today. Even in ChParadise's first post, the first two sentences discuss the history of the divide, and the second question asked is about the relationship between the two in the past.
I agree with Tiberius. After all, many aspects of modern religion are founded in tradition and history and influence it's relation with science.


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  #65  
Old February 1st, 2008, 11:31 pm
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Re: The Relationship Between Science and Religion

Let's keep the focus on the present and future, while still acknowledging that the past influences it .


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  #66  
Old February 2nd, 2008, 2:56 am
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Re: The Relationship Between Science and Religion

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But don't blastocysts develop into the embryo and placenta? Well, I just meant the destruction of something that could develop into a human baby, so I included blastocysts in that.
One thing to keep in mind is that a lot of the blastocysts in labs may not ever grow to become embryos, fetuses or children, regardless of whether they're used for stem cells. When women go through some fertility treatments, it's not unusual for them to either implant several eggs to increase the chances of fertilization (this is how some women who undergo egg implantation end up with multiple births), or create several blastocysts in case the one implanted is miscarried. In the latter case, if the first try results in a successful pregnancy and birth, there may be blastocysts left over that will never be implanted in the woman. If they've been created, it seems like it would be better, in my mind, to use them to help preserve lives.


  #67  
Old February 2nd, 2008, 8:02 am
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Re: The Relationship Between Science and Religion

As far as cloning is concerned, this is what I think:

1) Cloning as a scientific experiment/investigation is not irreligious, nor is it 'against God's established order'. As long as you have the brains, you have the independence to experiment.

2) However, cloning should be done only if the resultant clone has a 100% chance of a healthy life. Otherwise, it will be forcing some man or animal to a life of pain and misery, which is definitely against religion AND morality.

3) Cloning should be done for moral purposes only. IE, If you clone an animal, it should only be for the purpose of propagating endangered species. You should not clone an animal just to kill it for meat. And as far as human cloning is concerned, no issues on that one.

Besides, cloning isn't against religion as well, although the Church condemns it. Its there in our scripture, in this account in the Srimad Bhagavatam,

"Indra entered the womb of Diti to slay her unborn child. Upon attempting to cleave the child into two, he succeeded only in creating two duplicates of the original embryo. He continued trying to cut each new embryo in half, vainly trying to kill them, while all he accomplished was creating duplicate children of the original."

These children in the story were truly clones in the biological sense, because clones are obtained from mitosis of ancestor cells before they become differentiated. Hence, each new product of Indra's cutting became a separate child. Clearly, this shows that cloning is quite natural, allowed by God, and does not make Man 'God'.



Last edited by Necro; February 2nd, 2008 at 8:16 am.
  #68  
Old February 3rd, 2008, 3:17 pm
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Re: The Relationship Between Science and Religion

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Originally Posted by DancingMaenid View Post
One thing to keep in mind is that a lot of the blastocysts in labs may not ever grow to become embryos, fetuses or children, regardless of whether they're used for stem cells. When women go through some fertility treatments, it's not unusual for them to either implant several eggs to increase the chances of fertilization (this is how some women who undergo egg implantation end up with multiple births), or create several blastocysts in case the one implanted is miscarried. In the latter case, if the first try results in a successful pregnancy and birth, there may be blastocysts left over that will never be implanted in the woman. If they've been created, it seems like it would be better, in my mind, to use them to help preserve lives.
That's a good point. Since the blastocysts are already created and essentially unwanted, maybe it is better for them to be used in research. I guess it depends on your views on how special life is, but then those blastocysts are pretty much going to be destroyed whatever. So then the issue is more whether to create them in the first place. I can't make up my mind on this really.


  #69  
Old February 3rd, 2008, 5:19 pm
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Re: The Relationship Between Science and Religion

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So then the issue is more whether to create them in the first place.
Harvesting and fertilising eggs for IVF treatments are not the kind of procedures that you can efficiently do on egg at a time.


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  #70  
Old February 3rd, 2008, 5:47 pm
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Re: The Relationship Between Science and Religion

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So then the issue is more whether to create them in the first place. I can't make up my mind on this really.
Given the time, effort, money, and the deleterious physical impact on the prospective mother, they can't possibly do one egg at a time. Many of the eggs taken never even become or remain viable, so they do have to harvest and impregnate multiple eggs.

I think that people who have moral qualms about this procedure should not use it, but others should have the right. This kind of procedure should be applauded by religions, since it is usually undertaken by loving couples who want children. And most religions value this kind of family commitment.


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Last edited by ComicBookWorm; February 3rd, 2008 at 9:26 pm.
  #71  
Old February 3rd, 2008, 6:50 pm
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Re: The Relationship Between Science and Religion

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This kind of procedure should be applauded by religions, since it is usually undertaken by loving couples who want children. And most religions value this kind of family commitment.
Unfortunately it isn't. The Catholic Church brands IVF as a "gravely evil act". One of many reasons we've had a parting of the ways.

http://catholicinsight.com/online/ch...icle_475.shtml


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  #72  
Old February 4th, 2008, 12:58 pm
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Re: The Relationship Between Science and Religion

As a lot of people said, while using IVF, you have to try your luck as the eggs may not be fertilised. And the process repeats and repeats, resulting in more and more eggs being destroyed. Eggs are living things, and we have to bear it in mind that WE were from an egg once. If everybody destroy eggs, just think how many prospective babies have been murdered!


  #73  
Old February 4th, 2008, 1:38 pm
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Re: The Relationship Between Science and Religion

Eggs are not living as they have only half the number of chromosomes required.


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  #74  
Old February 4th, 2008, 2:58 pm
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Re: The Relationship Between Science and Religion

I also think that religion and science are better off kept separate.

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Originally Posted by MC2456 View Post
As a lot of people said, while using IVF, you have to try your luck as the eggs may not be fertilised. And the process repeats and repeats, resulting in more and more eggs being destroyed. Eggs are living things, and we have to bear it in mind that WE were from an egg once. If everybody destroy eggs, just think how many prospective babies have been murdered!
Eggs "die" all the time as a natural part of the menstrual cycle. Every month that a woman doesn't get pregnant.
I see no reason to be concerned about an egg "dying" in a lab.


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  #75  
Old February 5th, 2008, 2:27 pm
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Re: The Relationship Between Science and Religion

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Originally Posted by Pox Voldius View Post
I also think that religion and science are better off kept separate.


Eggs "die" all the time as a natural part of the menstrual cycle. Every month that a woman doesn't get pregnant.
I see no reason to be concerned about an egg "dying" in a lab.
Well, you hit the nail on the head. Eggs dying in menstrual cycle is NATURAL. And eggs dying in a lab are not. Get my point?


  #76  
Old February 5th, 2008, 4:22 pm
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Re: The Relationship Between Science and Religion

Kindly do refrain from rising the temperature of this thread.


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  #77  
Old February 5th, 2008, 7:18 pm
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Re: The Relationship Between Science and Religion

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Well, you hit the nail on the head. Eggs dying in menstrual cycle is NATURAL. And eggs dying in a lab are not. Get my point?
Eggs aren't really living though until they are fertilized. I think that couples who go through IVF are very brave. It is heartbreaking to watch a couple try and try to have babies and not be able to do it naturally. I see nothing wrong with using science to help out the situation.


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Last edited by LBuccalo; February 6th, 2008 at 9:54 pm.
  #78  
Old February 5th, 2008, 9:21 pm
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Re: The Relationship Between Science and Religion

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Eggs aren't really living though until they are fertilized. I think that couples who go through IVF are very brave. It is heartbreaking to watch a cople try and try to have babies and not be able to do it naturally. I see nothing wrong with using science to help out the situation.
Absolutely. It is the kind of dedication to having children that should be applauded.


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  #79  
Old February 28th, 2008, 4:22 am
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Re: The Relationship Between Science and Religion

As a biological science student born into Christian family, I've had a life-long struggle with juggling between my faith (or lack thereof) and my science.
I was heavily leaning towards science and abandoning whatever was left of my weak faith but.. was born again and now consider myself evangelical Christian.
Before this time, it was my goal to prove that God does not exist
After hat, my goal was changed to prove that God does exist (a major arrogance... I agre )
But now I know that... a God you can understand (and prove) is not even worth worshipping....

People on the religious side are continuously attacking science, previously evolution and now molecular biological engineering (including genetic engineering) and sciece uses its weapons, armed with equations, studies, hypothesis, etc. to claim that religion is false (in extreme cases, at least)

I just think... the two should leave each other alone.
As someone mentioned earlier in this thread,
religion is based on faith, science based on proof
the idea that one can be used to prove or disaprove the other seems paradoxical.

Science does certainly try to answer many questions as for how we came about to be as well as how we function down to the subatomic level. As a scientist (or someone aspiring to be) I cannot help but be swayed by the overwhelming proofs and studies from time to time. However, all those studies and proofs, and all that jazz, while I have huge respect and admiration for those scholars, it is very arrogant of humans to think that they can answer all the questions that there is to answer in this world. We do have the bigger brain, higher IQ, relatively better developed nervous system, etc. but I think humans as a whole occasionally get carried away and forget the fact tht perhaps our knowledge, or undestanding of the world is limited to within our universe (and such view is not just from a relgious point of view...). Science will provide the best, most fitting answers within the context we live in, but we have no way of knowing whether we are above such limits or we are just a tiny speck in infitesmally large universe of greater dimensions.

I do realize that there are certain groups of Christian scientist that try to prove God's existence and the bible scientifically.
Although I applaud them for their efforts, as I mentioned before, two things are of complete different dimensions and one cannot be used to understand another; also, as I mentioned above, God you can understand/prove is not worth worshipping.

It really depends on faith.
Before, when I studied biology and evolution, I saw the absence of God from the history of this universe
Now when I study the same material, I can sense and and feel God's presence and mysterious workings in different parts

Such change, even fom the exact same materials and theories, is made possible only by faith, which can neither be proved nor disapproved by science..

Quote:
Originally Posted by LBuccalo View Post
Eggs aren't really living though until they are fertilized. I think that couples who go through IVF are very brave. It is heartbreaking to watch a couple try and try to have babies and not be able to do it naturally. I see nothing wrong with using science to help out the situation.


If you think about it, the gametes (eggs and sperms) although haploid, are fully living individual cells that have the capacity to divide on their own (reproduce) with their own set of genetic information....
If we try to define the borderline between life and the inorganic,it is just mixing philosophy, science, religion, etc. and resulting in a huge headache... I really don't know if we can come up with an absolute answer to as for who/what qualifies as alive or dead



Last edited by Amadeus; February 28th, 2008 at 4:27 am.
  #80  
Old February 28th, 2008, 7:08 am
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Re: The Relationship Between Science and Religion

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I do realize that there are certain groups of Christian scientist that try to prove God's existence and the bible scientifically.
I see nothing wrong with science trying to prove the existence of a God or if religion would give logical explanations of scientific theories. I only feel that religion should not come in the way of science or indeed anything else. The role of religion is to make people aware of God and his greatness and all that. Not to dictate what science can do or cannot do.

If religion would object to anything that science would do, let it, but let it not allow its objections to take such steps that it may stop the reasearch itself. Unless that reasearch would mean more harm than good.

And I am not an atheist.


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