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  #41  
Old January 31st, 2008, 2:46 am
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Re: The Relationship Between Science and Religion

1. Based off of your religious beliefs, do you think that some forms of scientific research should be restricted?
... I'm not religious. but I think that any scientific research that can improve life should not be restricted.

2. What impact has religion had on scientific advances? Has organized religion held up the progress of scientific advancement?
I think religion has definitely slowed down scientific advancement.. Specifically in areas regarding stem cells.

3. What do you think the relationship between religion and science should be?
The same as the relationship should be between religion and politics; Non existent... I really don't mean to offend, but religious extremists tend to get in the way of just about everything.


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Last edited by kuroi_shi; October 25th, 2008 at 6:20 am.
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  #42  
Old February 1st, 2008, 2:23 am
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Re: The Relationship Between Science and Religion

Quote:
Originally Posted by kuroi_shi View Post
I really don't mean to offend, but religious extremists tend to get in the way of just about everything.
There's a fine line between standing up for your religious views and being an extremist.


1. Based off of your religious beliefs, do you think that some forms of scientific research should be restricted?
I wouldn't say my religious beliefs are the base of my views, but research that harms animals or people more than it helps them is wrong in my mind.


2. What impact has religion had on scientific advances? Has organized religion held up the progress of scientific advancement?
From my own experiences, parts of religion tends to dissuade curiosity, but I think it depends on what an individual does with their religion in relation to science that makes the difference.

3. What do you think the relationship between religion and science should be?
Minimal. Neither side seems to want to admit that the other has valid points.


  #43  
Old February 1st, 2008, 2:55 am
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Re: The Relationship Between Science and Religion

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Originally Posted by Mina_Harker View Post
Minimal. Neither side seems to want to admit that the other has valid points.
Well that's demonstrably untrue as most churches accept that the Earth orbits the sun.


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  #44  
Old February 1st, 2008, 9:56 am
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Re: The Relationship Between Science and Religion

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Originally Posted by Wab View Post
Well that's demonstrably untrue as most churches accept that the Earth orbits the sun.
But how long did it take them to admit it? Centuries.


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  #45  
Old February 1st, 2008, 10:45 am
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Re: The Relationship Between Science and Religion

Though I'm more inclined to the religion side, I'm going to take a very un-biased look on this whole issue. I believe that science and religion co-exists in harmony with each other. It's US who are the problem. It's we who set our beliefs in stone and argue and fight with whoever disagrees with us. Let's look at a very simple story I made up.

One day, a man found a golden coin. (this was set long ago, and these people were very poor, so they don't see much golden coins. : ) Anyway, on with the story!) His relatives and friends all gathered around it in awe, and they began arguing which side of the coin looked better: Head, or Tails. The 'Heads' people argued that the Head side was better because of the mark of the King's Head on it. The Tails people argued that the bottom looked better because it was shinier. Then, they asked the man which side was better. The man shrugs and says: "Both. Because with both sides, I can buy my breakfast."
OK, hope you know what I mean! GTG!


  #46  
Old February 1st, 2008, 11:12 am
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Re: The Relationship Between Science and Religion

I'm sorry. I don't really understand the relevance of your made-up (borrowed?) parable.

Religion can do and say what it wants when it comes to matters of faith. The problems come when religion tries to tell science what to do in matters of science. Science seldom, if ever, tells religion what to do, although sometimes religion doesn't like hearing what science has to say.

Science is just the structured accumulation of knowledge. There is no middle ground if a religion has decided it doesn't like something science has learned. Let's take Galileo, for instance. What would the middle ground have been? Either the earth revolved around the sun or not.


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  #47  
Old February 1st, 2008, 11:21 am
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Re: The Relationship Between Science and Religion

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Originally Posted by Tiberius View Post
But how long did it take them to admit it? Centuries.
Yet they admitted it.


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  #48  
Old February 1st, 2008, 11:31 am
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Re: The Relationship Between Science and Religion

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wab View Post
Well that's demonstrably untrue as most churches accept that the Earth orbits the sun.
Quote:
posted by Tiberius
But how long did it take them to admit it? Centuries.
Centuries I think. Was it Nicholas Copernicus who was put to death by the Church for saying that the sun was in the centre and the planets moved around the sun? My science is a bit hazy but I also kind of remember that Galileo had to backtrack and receive a Papal pardon for saying the earth was round; I think, so that he would not be punished.

Co-exist is fine; but what I think is religion should not interfere with science, unless the research itself is harmful and then if it is, then it can join hands with other organizations to stop a research that may potentially harm. Otherwise IMO it would be best if religion would give science the widest berth possible.


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  #49  
Old February 1st, 2008, 11:38 am
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Re: The Relationship Between Science and Religion

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Originally Posted by The_Green_Woods View Post
Centuries I think. Was it Nicholas Copernicus who was put to death by the Church for saying that the sun was in the centre and the planets moved around the sun? My science is a bit hazy but I also kind of remember that Galileo had to backtrack and receive a Papal pardon for saying the earth was round; I think, so that he would not be punished.
Copernicus died a natural death. Galileo was put under a rather comfortable house arrest and died of natural causes.


  #50  
Old February 1st, 2008, 12:07 pm
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Re: The Relationship Between Science and Religion

The problem is, when mordern religions clash with science, it is deemed man-made. But even when an ancient religion talks of science, it is called mythological. There is no pleasing atheists.

Science is the very foundation of Hinduism. The ancient Puranas, Vedas and Ithihasas are replete with scientific facts. It is a proof of the fact that these scriptures, whose antiquity is such that their origin is unknown, are actually divine revelations, both scientific and spiritual.

Long before people discovered the Earth was round, the Rig Veda and the Puranas were detailing information about different constellations and astronomical observations. Eclipses and polestar positions that were prevalent over a million years ago are recorded in the Rig Veda. Only someone who had watched the skies a million years ago could have written it down so accurately.

There are two types of sciences - Material Sciences and the Science of the Self and God.

Material Sciences enumerated include Atomic Science, Biology, Vehicle Design, Physics, Chemistry, Medicine, Astronomy, etc.

Here are some samples:

1) The Big Bang and Pulsating Theory, as well as the Expansion of the Universe, are explained in the Vedas (particularly the Rig Veda) and the Vishnu Sahasranama. According to our texts, 'God is the Expanse on which the Universe expands'.

2) The Vedas say that 'OM' is the cosmic vibration of the Universe. OM is the sound that Galaxies make when they move, which isn't detectable. OM is the primordial vibration. And the Puranas say that there are innumerable Universes. This fits in with String Theory, which says that all matter is composed of vibrating strings, and that there are multiple Universes.

3) The Ithihasas describe many types of mordern weapons. The most famous is the Brahmastra, which means 'Weapon made from creation'. This 'creation' signifies the atom. Hence, the Brahmastra is the atomic bomb. The effects of the Brahmastra, as described in our texts, clearly seem similar to radiation effects.

The Narayana Astra is another deadly weapon. It is a missile, which when launched, multiplies itself. There are also weapons that attack by sound, air and water. Impressive military formations are also detailed.

4) Speed of Light is known as follows:

O Surya (Sun) you who traverse 2,202 yojanas in half a nimesa.

~ Rig Veda.

Yojana is an ancient unit of length. Arthasastra defines it as being equal to 8,000 dhanus, which is equivalent to 9 miles. A nimesa is an ancient unit of time that is equal to 16/75 seconds. Thus 2,202 yojanas in half a nimesa is equal to 185,794 miles per second after conversion. The modern estimate of the speed of light is 186,281.7 miles per second.

5) The Puranas define each Universe as 'egg shaped' and say that there are 14 planets (with intelligent life) in each Universe (there are millions of such cosmic eggs). Furthermore, the concept of time dilation is given as under:

One day in Brahma Loka (Planet of Brahma) = 4.3 Billion Earth Years.

One Day in Earth = 1/17,350th of a second in Brahma Loka.

Such great insights into the unknown are given in the Puranas.

The Srimad Bhagavatam, a 5000 year old scripture, also details the exact process that a soul undergoes when it is in the womb of the mother. Here it is:

Quote:
SRIMAD BHAGAVATAM'S ACCOUNT OF EMBRYONIC SCIENCE

On the first night the sperm and ovum mix, at the fifth night there is a bubble and in about ten days it is thereafter like a plum, lump of flesh or an egg. (3) Within a month a head appears and after two months limbs like arms and feet do form; nails, [the beginnings of] hair, bones, skin, reproductive organs and the apertures have their appearance within three months. (4) In about four months do the seven ingredients separate [body-fluids and other elements], in five months do feelings like hunger and thirst take place and in six months does the fetus at the right start to move around in the amnion [males at the right, females at the left it is said]. (5) From the nutrition taken from the mother, the body of the fetus grows staying in that impossible hollow, whereabout stool and urine form a breedingplace for germs. (6) All the time aching for food, it is, being so tender, affected by infestations and so suffers with all its body a great deal residing there, moment after moment falling into unconsciousness. (7) Because of the excessive bitterness, heat, pungency, saltiness, dryness, the sour etc. of the food taken by the mother, it is in every limb affected feeling pain. (8) Enclosed by the amnion in that place surrounded by the intestines it lies with its head in its belly arched with a bent neck and back. (9) Like a bird in a cage with no freedom of movement, when it is lucky, remembers it [the soul] still what has happened in all its hundreds of births, of which, remembering such a long time, it may sigh, for what peace of mind can it then achieve? (10) From the seventh month on being endowed with consciousness it is pushed down though by the pressure of the womb not being able to keep that place, just like the worm coming from the same belly.

The frightened living entity bound to its seven constituents [nails, skin, fat, flesh, blood, bone, marrow], then faltering, with folded hands and words of prayer appeals to the Lord who placed him in the womb. Thus desiring from within the womb, does the ten months old living entity extol the Lord at the time of being pushed downwards by the pressure of labor to take birth. In the 7th month though, an air called 'Satam' passes over the baby, making it forget who it is and where it came from.(23) Because of that pressure its head is turned downwards and, suddenly with great difficulty suffering, it comes out breathless bereft of all memory. (24) Like a worm coming down on the earth, smeared with blood, it moves its limbs and cries loudly, having lost the wisdom in reaching the opposite state. (25) By others not understood in what he wants has he, being maintained by his folks and unable to refuse, fallen into circumstances he didn't wish for.



Last edited by Necro; February 1st, 2008 at 12:26 pm.
  #51  
Old February 1st, 2008, 12:18 pm
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Re: The Relationship Between Science and Religion

Quote:
Originally Posted by Necro View Post
The problem is, when mordern religions clash with science, it is deemed man-made. But even when an ancient religion talks of science, it is called mythological. There is no pleasing atheists.
Explain to me why you blaming atheists for this? The description of ancient beliefs isn't done solely by atheists.


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  #52  
Old February 1st, 2008, 12:23 pm
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Re: The Relationship Between Science and Religion

Do not take offense. I have no problem with atheism. It is indeed less troublesome and a safer route as compared to religious extremism.

No, I am referring to the general consensus. Basically, the ancient scriptures say something scientific. The atheist acknowledges it. Then the scripture will say, 'God is behind all science.' The athiest rejects that part. Then, some deeds of God is described. The atheist calls it 'mythological'.

Hence, I fail to see how can something that also details science be considered mythological. You accept the scientific part, then accept also the description of God.

With mordern religions, they will say, 'God is omnipotent.' Then they will say, 'The earth is flat'. So atheists disprove it as unscientific.

This is the way all analysis nowadays are carried out. There seems to be an eagerness to disprove God, rather than being open-minded.


  #53  
Old February 1st, 2008, 12:36 pm
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Re: The Relationship Between Science and Religion

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Originally Posted by Mundungus Fletc View Post
Copernicus died a natural death. Galileo was put under a rather comfortable house arrest and died of natural causes.
Oops! I remember reading about Copernicus saying the sun was in the centre and being punished for that. So I remembered wrong. (it was waaaay back in school)

I know Galileo was not punished by death; he was given an official pardon. Didn't he need to take back what he said or something?

Religion is by nature unyeliding IMO. It would be better if it keeps out of science on a general basis is what I feel. I would not like religious morality or immorality to be thrown in scientific research's face.


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  #54  
Old February 1st, 2008, 12:54 pm
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Re: The Relationship Between Science and Religion

Easy now folks. I think we've seen in these last few hours why I had the idea for this thread in the first place. There has been tension historically between science and religion, but let's try to discuss this topic in a civil manner without offending anyone. There are people of many faiths and backgrounds here, so it's not helpful to single out one religious point of view as being hypocritical, etc.


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  #55  
Old February 1st, 2008, 1:13 pm
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Re: The Relationship Between Science and Religion

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Originally Posted by Necro View Post
No, I am referring to the general consensus. Basically, the ancient scriptures say something scientific. The atheist acknowledges it. Then the scripture will say, 'God is behind all science.' The athiest rejects that part. Then, some deeds of God is described. The atheist calls it 'mythological'.
Many others besides atheists think that way about ancient scriptures and mythologies. I, personally, find it very offensive for you to single out atheists that way. And I don't even understand why you are doing so in a thread about science and religion. You don't have to be an atheist to believe in the value of science.


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  #56  
Old February 1st, 2008, 1:37 pm
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Re: The Relationship Between Science and Religion

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Originally Posted by ComicBookWorm View Post
I'm sorry. I don't really understand the relevance of your made-up (borrowed?) parable.

Religion can do and say what it wants when it comes to matters of faith. The problems come when religion tries to tell science what to do in matters of science. Science seldom, if ever, tells religion what to do, although sometimes religion doesn't like hearing what science has to say.

Science is just the structured accumulation of knowledge. There is no middle ground if a religion has decided it doesn't like something science has learned. Let's take Galileo, for instance. What would the middle ground have been? Either the earth revolved around the sun or not.
[staff edit] What I'm trying to say is, it is all the same. Science and religion is the same, they're just two sides of the same coin, two different perspectives of looking at the things around us.

I'm not trying to be rude or anything, but it's not religion who accuses science. It's the people who are religious who accuse the scientist, and vice versa. One should not confuse the two, the people and the subjects themselves. When you come to look at it, what's at fault is not science or religion, but us.



Last edited by Alastor; February 1st, 2008 at 3:38 pm.
  #57  
Old February 1st, 2008, 1:55 pm
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Re: The Relationship Between Science and Religion

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Originally Posted by MC2456 View Post
I'm not trying to be rude or anything, but it's not religion who accuses science. It's the people who are religious who accuse the scientist, and vice versa. One should not confuse the two, the people and the subjects themselves. When you come to look at it, what's at fault is not science or religion, but us.
I'm only referring in the general to religion since all faiths are made up by people. All religious decisions and actions are made by people in the name of religion.

Religion and science are not two different ways of looking at the same thing. They often look at very different things, and that's fine. There's a place for both.


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Last edited by ComicBookWorm; February 1st, 2008 at 11:02 pm.
  #58  
Old February 1st, 2008, 2:06 pm
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Re: The Relationship Between Science and Religion

Quote:
posted by MC2456
I'm not trying to be rude or anything, but it's not religion who accuses science. It's the people who are religious who accuse the scientist, and vice versa. One should not confuse the two, the people and the subjects themselves. When you come to look at it, what's at fault is not science or religion, but us.
But people who do accuse science, use scriptures and quotations from various religious books to prove their point.


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Spotlight on Snape and Molly

:indy:
  #59  
Old February 1st, 2008, 2:28 pm
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Re: The Relationship Between Science and Religion

It seems I wasn't clear enough at first. The tone of this thread shall improve - ie, people will stop assuming things about others and will play nice - or actions in the forms of post deletions / warnings / etc will be taken. This isn't a thread we should need to babysit.


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  #60  
Old February 1st, 2008, 3:18 pm
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Re: The Relationship Between Science and Religion

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mina_Harker
Minimal. Neither side seems to want to admit that the other has valid points.
From the historical Catholic Church perspective, it only got into a snit when science stomped on scriptural matters, such as the controversy over helio-centrism when geo-centrism and evolution by natural selection (two issues with which the Vatican is now comfortable).

On the other hand Gregor Mendel was a monk when he was doing his work on genetics.


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