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Should spanking be made illegal? V.2



 
 
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  #41  
Old December 4th, 2007, 5:31 pm
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Re: Should spanking be made illegal? V.2

I would point out that generations have been raised successfully with spanking as part of a general disciplinary plan. Much of the self-esteem issues and out-of-control behavior issues have actually expanded as the practice of reasonable spanking by concerned parents has diminished. Abuse has not tapered off, but discipline has become less and less well provided during this trend. The idea that a swat on the buttocks is abusive is erroneous IMO. In dealing with a child that has limited reasoning skills the possibility of physical consequences is a very effective deterrent and is completely reasonable. It isn’t solely the physical aspect that spanking is successful in using. The effective display of disapproval without the need for prolonged overtly angry behavior such as loud yelling or other extended angry displays is a huge positive in spanking. A brief and attention getting swat on the buttocks allows a parent an opportunity to ensure attention and retention in a young child that in many cases considers words alone avoidable and ignorable and will potentially fail to associate long duration punishments with offenses.
Assigning tangible and immediate consequences is very important in impressing points on young children. While denying material items or privileges is effective in older children, spanking and accompanying instruction is more valuable in younger children because it isn’t long-term and potentially unassociated. To a 6-7 year old child, many times they have forgotten why they were given a time-out or a restriction before the punishment is over. Spanking creates an immediate association with the behavior and often lingers in memory more clearly and precisely than duration punishments, as I have observed in my experiences as a father. Of course as a child gets older, the method can and IMO should shift away from corporal punishments, but this is all in correlation with the reaction of the child and the effectiveness of the methods. The most important rule is to never punish in anger. All correction, spanking, restrictions, time-outs, and so on should be done as corrections and should be understood as such by the child. The abuse is in the anger and intimidation that accompanies the anger. Children actually crave discipline and structure and find security and self-esteem in it because as much as hugs and kisses, taking the time and energy to teach and correct is a sign of love to a child. The lack of that security is far more abusive than a sting on the hind-end to correct inappropriate behavior, IMHO.


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  #42  
Old December 4th, 2007, 5:51 pm
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Re: Should spanking be made illegal? V.2

Quote:
I would point out that generations have been raised successfully with spanking as part of a general disciplinary plan. Much of the self-esteem issues and out-of-control behavior issues have actually expanded as the practice of reasonable spanking by concerned parents has diminished. Abuse has not tapered off, but discipline has become less and less well provided during this trend.
I was going to say something like this in one of my posts. It is really just recently that there is so much push to what is and isn't acceptable with kids. The older generation of people (born from the 1920's to the 40's) were nearly all disciplined physically. And as far as I know, none of them have come out against spanking, saying that it caused them to have psychological problems. And they became normal, healthy, well-behaved, successful individuals in society. I sometimes wonder, looking back at the way older generations were raised, if we are really doing our kids harm in coddling them so much in every way these days.

I heard a comedian who was basically talking about the changes from when he was a kid and the way it is now with his kids. He basically said that he would rather be a parent back then than now. When you wouldn't get arrested for letting your kid sit in the car with the windows down while you went shopping, got spanked when you did something wrong, etc.

He also said that if they had had timeouts when they were kids, no one's behavior would've been corrected. He said (about timeouts) "Where was that when we were kids? Do you know what a timeout is? That's when they punish a kid by making him think about what he did. You couldn't have done that, because we would've said 'Oh yeah, I'm thinking about it. I'll neeever do that again!' sarcastically."

In a way, I think he has a point. I don't think a kid should be spanked every time he does something wrong, or that we shouldn't use better discipline techniques, but all the people saying that spanking is detrimental seem to be forgetting all the generations of people before us who were spanked and turned out fine.


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  #43  
Old December 4th, 2007, 7:41 pm
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Re: Should spanking be made illegal? V.2

How can we know that people "turned out fine"? Unfortunately, that's very difficult to measure. It's impossible, though, to say that entire generations turned out fine with spankings.

To me, it's like saying that marriage was better off before no-fault divorce laws. True, you had fewer divorces, but more people, particularly women, were also trapped in unhappy marriages.

Not only can spanking be very harmful to some children, but it does not teach anything except to fear the parents and become conditioned against doing something the parent disapproves of. It teaches nothing useful in the real world. I would suggest that children were more disciplined in the past because they had higher expectations placed on them.


  #44  
Old December 4th, 2007, 9:21 pm
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Re: Should spanking be made illegal? V.2

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Originally Posted by mac_attack View Post
I was going to say something like this in one of my posts. It is really just recently that there is so much push to what is and isn't acceptable with kids. The older generation of people (born from the 1920's to the 40's) were nearly all disciplined physically. And as far as I know, none of them have come out against spanking, saying that it caused them to have psychological problems. And they became normal, healthy, well-behaved, successful individuals in society. I sometimes wonder, looking back at the way older generations were raised, if we are really doing our kids harm in coddling them so much in every way these days.
My mum is one of those people who was disciplined by spanking in the 40's/50's and I do believe that she has been affected somewhat by it. It was her father who used to spank her, she says that he hit her with a horse whip on a number of occasions, once because he called her & she didn't hear him and on several occasions because he was forcing her to ride a horse when she didn't want to. Now my mum has never slapped/spanked me and I feel that she has been affected by this, she never talks about my grandfather unless someone else brings him up and she has always had a lifelong fear of horses because of how her father treated her.


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  #45  
Old December 4th, 2007, 10:29 pm
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Re: Should spanking be made illegal? V.2

mariebeth, I don't think that anyone here is advocating that it's all right to hit children with a horse whip. To me that would definitely qualify as abuse, and I would not be at all surprised to find that a child who was whipped was affected by it. Spanking with an object or a whip is a lot different than just with a hand.


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  #46  
Old December 4th, 2007, 10:43 pm
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Re: Should spanking be made illegal? V.2

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Originally Posted by DancingMaenid View Post
Not only can spanking be very harmful to some children, but it does not teach anything except to fear the parents and become conditioned against doing something the parent disapproves of. It teaches nothing useful in the real world. I would suggest that children were more disciplined in the past because they had higher expectations placed on them.
The only harm I can imagine to occur from spanking would be the actual fear, but fear is a trait of dominance. The parents are the bosses of the household; letting the child have run of the home cannot be advisable. Fear is going to come from any form of punishment, and punishments mark boundaries. Having a relationship where the parent is in the dominant role does not exclude mutal respect in that relationship.

I see children being conditioned against doing things the parents disapprove of as being a positive effect - that's simply part of what parenting is.


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  #47  
Old December 4th, 2007, 11:00 pm
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Re: Should spanking be made illegal? V.2

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Originally Posted by rigdoctorbri View Post
No child has ever died, or even permanently injured from an on-the-butt spanking. Thousands have died from malicious abuse, beatings, or floggings.
While it's unlikely, there is some risk of damage being done to the spine or internal organs. Especially if a child is standing, the shock of the strike could potentially cause problems.

Quote:
Originally Posted by YellowPoofBall View Post
The only harm I can imagine to occur from spanking would be the actual fear, but fear is a trait of dominance. The parents are the bosses of the household; letting the child have run of the home cannot be advisable. Fear is going to come from any form of punishment, and punishments mark boundaries. Having a relationship where the parent is in the dominant role does not exclude mutal respect in that relationship.

I see children being conditioned against doing things the parents disapprove of as being a positive effect - that's simply part of what parenting is.
I grew up in a home where I knew my behavior could have consequences, but I was never afraid of my parents and never feared for my safety. I did, however, respect them. If I had been spanked, I can say confidently that I would have no respect for my parents.

The problem with conditioning is that it's not reliable or logical. For instance, say two people fall off a horse. One might be scared to ride after that, and another might not be. Furthermore, people can become conditioned to things illogically. Someone might realize that the horse that threw them was especially temperamental and that another horse might be very unlikely to throw them, but may still be afraid of riding any horse.

In cases of parental conditioning, well, parents aren't always right. If a parent punished their child for voicing an opinion that the parents did not like, and the child then grew up to be very reserved about expressing themselves and hesitant to be assertive, would this be a positive thing?

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Originally Posted by Rell View Post
mariebeth, I don't think that anyone here is advocating that it's all right to hit children with a horse whip. To me that would definitely qualify as abuse, and I would not be at all surprised to find that a child who was whipped was affected by it. Spanking with an object or a whip is a lot different than just with a hand.
But some parents see hitting their children with objects as "spanking". In fact, I have encountered parents who felt that it was better to spank with paddles and similar objects because they felt spanking with their hand was less humane and sent the wrong message. These parents saw their actions as spanking and non-abusive.


  #48  
Old December 4th, 2007, 11:08 pm
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Re: Should spanking be made illegal? V.2

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Originally Posted by DancingMaenid View Post
But some parents see hitting their children with objects as "spanking". In fact, I have encountered parents who felt that it was better to spank with paddles and similar objects because they felt spanking with their hand was less humane and sent the wrong message. These parents saw their actions as spanking and non-abusive. Reply With Quote
Paddling a child is something that I would definitely consider abuse. When I say that I don't think spanking should be illegal, I do not in any way mean that I think it should be legal to whip or paddle children.


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  #49  
Old December 4th, 2007, 11:32 pm
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Re: Should spanking be made illegal? V.2

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Originally Posted by DancingMaenid View Post
I grew up in a home where I knew my behavior could have consequences, but I was never afraid of my parents and never feared for my safety. I did, however, respect them. If I had been spanked, I can say confidently that I would have no respect for my parents.

The problem with conditioning is that it's not reliable or logical. For instance, say two people fall off a horse. One might be scared to ride after that, and another might not be. Furthermore, people can become conditioned to things illogically. Someone might realize that the horse that threw them was especially temperamental and that another horse might be very unlikely to throw them, but may still be afraid of riding any horse.

In cases of parental conditioning, well, parents aren't always right. If a parent punished their child for voicing an opinion that the parents did not like, and the child then grew up to be very reserved about expressing themselves and hesitant to be assertive, would this be a positive thing?
Well, obviously, if you're spanked now, you'd be irate. You're old enough to decide what is right or wrong for yourself by now. It's certainly not for me to say how you would or would not be in a different situation, but people who are not acclimated to certain things may take exception to them.

I grew up being spanked occasionally. I also have never feared for my safety, and my parents and I have always had a respectful and loving relationship. The only way I can see for spanking to have made a difference is if my parents spanked me because they were taking their emotions over something else out on me. That is something that never happened. I earned my own punishments.

Regardless of whether a parent's ideals are logical, it is the parent's right to raise his/her own children. Without delving too much into relativism, what gives anyone else the right to instill values into someone else's child?

If a parent punished their child for always voicing an opinion of any kind, then no, that would not be a positive thing. That, however, is more mental oppression than discipline. But I really doubt that a child will become completely reserved because a parent told that child not to say a curse word, and then spanked the child when the child still cursed. If the child stopped cursing after that, I'd call that successful.

Your example is much too general, whereas spanking is for specific actions. A parent who spanks a child for the very first offense needs to do some empathizing: did the child willingly do something wrong? Spanking does not replace explaining something the child does not already know. Most parents don't actively search for wrongdoings so they can spank their child.

Edit: Sorry, I forgot to add, I do agree with you about the possibility of lasting damage. Not only spines and organs, but I have heard stories of a child falling and being injured from a surprise spank. I definitely think that if spanking is implemented, it should be a careful affair, and not a knee-jerk reaction.


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Last edited by YellowPoofBall; December 4th, 2007 at 11:43 pm.
  #50  
Old December 5th, 2007, 12:38 am
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Re: Should spanking be made illegal? V.2

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Originally Posted by OldLupin View Post
The effective display of disapproval without the need for prolonged overtly angry behavior such as loud yelling or other extended angry displays is a huge positive in spanking. A brief and attention getting swat on the buttocks allows a parent an opportunity to ensure attention and retention in a young child that in many cases considers words alone avoidable and ignorable and will potentially fail to associate long duration punishments with offenses.
Very succinctly put. Bravo!

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Originally Posted by DancingMaenid View Post
While it's unlikely, there is some risk of damage being done to the spine or internal organs. Especially if a child is standing, the shock of the strike could potentially cause problems.
Only if the child has a predisposition to such trauma, such as a genetic bone disorder or syndromes such as Hairy-Hairy Disease, or blood disorders like hemophilia. Otherwise, if such trauma does occur, the impact must be beyond the realms of reasonable.


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  #51  
Old December 5th, 2007, 2:58 am
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Re: Should spanking be made illegal? V.2

I asked my mum that when she told me the stories about her dad and she insists it was spanking because it never actually left a mark or caused her great pain, it was more an emotional pain that she had done something so bad in her father's eyes that he felt the need to physically punish her. I think thats why Id never spank my kids if I have any.


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  #52  
Old December 5th, 2007, 3:13 am
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Re: Should spanking be made illegal? V.2

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While it's unlikely, there is some risk of damage being done to the spine or internal organs. Especially if a child is standing, the shock of the strike could potentially cause problems.
I'm sorry, where did you get this information from? It seems highly unlikely to me that damage could be done to the spine from a spank. Maybe a one in a million chance, and only if the circumstances were exact.

I don't say this to offend, it just doesn't seem plausible.

The only part of the spine near the buttocks is the Coccyx. Many a person have broken his/her coccyx, it's quite common actually, but not through a spank. I bruised mine once, falling down quite hard on a metal bar in my grandma's garage when I was about 7. Hurts like the dickens for quite a while, but no where near life threatening. The coccyx is located at the top of your buttocks, slightly below the small of your back. I've never heard of a kid getting spanked on the small of their back, and if they were, I would consider that to be dangerous because of how close it is to the kidneys. There are also, obviously, no major organs in the buttocks. They are just muscle...and depending on the person, differing levels of fat.


Quote:
I grew up in a home where I knew my behavior could have consequences, but I was never afraid of my parents and never feared for my safety. I did, however, respect them. If I had been spanked, I can say confidently that I would have no respect for my parents.
I never feared for my safety either. I had a loving, respectful relationship with my parents, and still do have that. I also have a great deal of respect for them, I admire them, and I think they are wonderful people. I value their opinion greatly.


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  #53  
Old December 5th, 2007, 7:10 am
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Re: Should spanking be made illegal? V.2

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Originally Posted by YellowPoofBall View Post
Well, obviously, if you're spanked now, you'd be irate. You're old enough to decide what is right or wrong for yourself by now. It's certainly not for me to say how you would or would not be in a different situation, but people who are not acclimated to certain things may take exception to them.
I have one memory of possibly being spanked as a child. I was probably three at the time. My parents swore it never happened, so it's possible it's a false memory. That possibility is the only reason why I do not hold it against them. If it's a true memory, then my love and respect for them is not diminished, but nonetheless, I would view it as a grave error and loss of temper on their part. If I had been spanked regularly as a child, I can tell you based on my psychology, I would not have respected them because of it. As a child, I purposely took measures to infect myself with a cold one time because I was upset about being grounded. When I was younger, I screamed hysterically when threatened with a time out. If I had been spanked, I don't think I could have handled it.

Quote:
If a parent punished their child for always voicing an opinion of any kind, then no, that would not be a positive thing. That, however, is more mental oppression than discipline. But I really doubt that a child will become completely reserved because a parent told that child not to say a curse word, and then spanked the child when the child still cursed. If the child stopped cursing after that, I'd call that successful.
I'm not talking about things like cursing, which is generally counterproductive to polite behavior. Some parents will punish their children based on things that most people would not consider bad behavior, like asking why a rule exists or questioning the parents' religious beliefs.

Most parents are fairly decent, and most parents in this thread are probably capable of disciplining their children without harming them. But that doesn't mean all parents are that way.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mac_attack View Post
[color="teal"]I'm sorry, where did you get this information from? It seems highly unlikely to me that damage could be done to the spine from a spank. Maybe a one in a million chance, and only if the circumstances were exact.
I've read about the safety and possible effects of different forms of spanking. If someone's body is supported, say, by leaning over something, the shock would have to be pretty bad, or a heavy object would have to be used, to cause damage. However, a hard spank in a standing position could cause someone to lose their balance or cause them harm from the shock of the blow hitting the body. The kidneys are a potential vulnerability. Again, unless an object is used, there isn't a huge risk, but it's possible, especially if the person had an unknown medical condition.

Plus, even if a parent is aiming for the buttocks, a misaim is possible and a more vulnerable part of the body could be struck.


  #54  
Old December 5th, 2007, 12:47 pm
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Re: Should spanking be made illegal? V.2

I only wish I had compiled this, but, alas, I cannot take credit.

The listing below basically underscores the source of many of the problems we have today...Enjoy!

Incidentally, although most of these are off the topic of Spanking, I feel they are connected by the same root cause...Modern Minority Thinking


Scenario: Jack goes quail hunting before school, pulls into school
parking lot with shotgun in gun rack.

1967 - Vice principal comes over, looks at Jack's shotgun, goes to his
car and gets his own shotgun to show Jack.


2007 - School goes into lockdown, the FBI is called, Jack is hauled off
to jail and never sees his truck or gun again. Counselors are called in
to assist traumatized students and teachers.



Scenario: Johnny and Mark get into a fistfight after school.

1967 - Crowd gathers. Mark wins. Johnny and Mark shake hands and end up
buddies.


2007 - Police are called, SWAT team arrives and arrests Johnny and
Mark. They are charged with assault and both are expelled even though Johnny started it.



Scenario: Jeffrey won't sit still in class, disrupts other students.

1967 - Jeffrey is sent to the principal's office and given a good
paddling. Returns to class, sits still and does not disrupt class again.


2007 - Jeffrey is given huge doses of Ritalin. Becomes a zombie. Tested
for ADD. School gets extra state funding because Jeffrey has a disability.


Scenario: Billy breaks a window in his neighbor's car and his Dad gives
him a whipping with his belt.

1967 - Billy is more careful next time, grows up normal, goes to
college, and becomes a successful businessman.


2007 - Billy's dad is arrested for child abuse. Billy is removed to
foster care and joins a gang. State psychologist tells Billy's sister that she
remembers being abused herself and their dad goes to prison. Billy's
mom has an affair with the psychologist.


Scenario: Mark gets a headache and takes some Aspirin to school.

1967 - Mark shares Aspirin with the school principal out on the smoking
dock.

2007 - Police are called and Mark is expelled from School for drug
violations. His car is searched for drugs and weapons.


Scenario: Pedro fails high-school English.

1967 - Pedro goes to summer school, passes English, goes to college.

2007 - Pedro's cause is taken up by local human rights group. Newspaper articles appear nationally explaining that making English a requirement for graduation is racist. US Civil Liberties Association files class action lawsuit against state school system and Pedro's English teacher. English is banned from core curriculum. Pedro is given his diploma anyway but ends up mowing lawns for a living because he cannot speak English.


Scenario: Amy takes a nail file to school to shape her nails on her lunch break.

1967 - Amy eats lunch, does her nails, all the while she is talking with her friend Jessica. Amy goes home and shows her mother her nice nail job.

2007 - Amy is expelled from school for bringing a weapon to school. Amy's parents are charged with child endangerment for allowing weapons in the household. Amy can't go to college because her college fund is used for court ordered counciling sessions.


Scenario: Johnny takes apart leftover Independence Day firecrackers,
puts them in a model airplane paint bottle and blows up an anthill.

1967 - Ants die.

2007 - Homeland Security and the FBI are called and Johnny is charged
with domestic terrorism. Teams investigate parents, siblings are removed
from the home, computers are confiscated, and Johnny's dad goes on a terror watch list and is never allowed to fly again.


Scenario: Johnny falls during recess and scrapes his knee. His teacher,
Mary, finds him crying, and gives him a hug to comfort him.

1967 - Johnny soon feels better and goes back to playing.

2007 - Mary is accused of being a sexual predator and loses her job.
She faces three years in federal prison. Johnny undergoes five years of
therapy


Does anyone else see a pattern here?

Though these are satirecal situations, they are essentially how things were and how they are today.

Growing up in the 1970's, as I did, I experienced a few of the things noted above. In 7th Grade I got into a fight with a guy named Wayne Price. A few years ago, he stood up at my wedding. (Wayne, if you are reading this, you haven't called in over a month! Pick up the phone!)

You'll note that a couple of them denoted paddling and a "whipping". Of course, I do not condone whipping, but I do not consider it abuse. And paddling I am not opposed to.


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  #55  
Old December 5th, 2007, 4:33 pm
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Re: Should spanking be made illegal? V.2

Quote:
Originally Posted by DancingMaenid View Post
How can we know that people "turned out fine"? Unfortunately, that's very difficult to measure. It's impossible, though, to say that entire generations turned out fine with spankings.

To me, it's like saying that marriage was better off before no-fault divorce laws. True, you had fewer divorces, but more people, particularly women, were also trapped in unhappy marriages.

Not only can spanking be very harmful to some children, but it does not teach anything except to fear the parents and become conditioned against doing something the parent disapproves of. It teaches nothing useful in the real world. I would suggest that children were more disciplined in the past because they had higher expectations placed on them.
I am of course referring to societal behaviors and respect for one another, which has dropped off precipitously during the move from corporal punishments to other methods to the exclusion of corporal punishments. (see rigdoctorbri post above, its only funny because it is so true). As to spanking teaching nothing but to fear parents that is inaccurate and downright misleading. Spanking, as with any punitive action as a parent, has to be accompanied with correction. This is a classic case of presumption. There is no evidence that parents that spank without abusive force or regularity are more “feared” or less respected than those who don’t. In fact when dealing with younger children who have less capacity for higher reasoning and interpretation it is significantly more effective than the “time-out” and privilege denial punishments and is much more healthy than denial of meals and/or other necessities.
I would request some explanation of the “harmful to some children” assertion as well. I will again remind everyone that spanking is not violent beatings or beatings with implements, and therefore acts of actual abuse are a specious argument in this debate.
As for nothing useful in the real world, immediate and easily interpreted negative consequences for bad conduct isn’t a lesson? How many adults get a “time out” when they misbehave? When adults misbehave we have serious consequences like loss of jobs, loss of property, and loss of freedom that can’t effectively be mimicked in parenting as children have no concept of earning and loss, just provision and lack thereof. Again, how many children at young age make complicated associations of that type? None. The associations are simpler and more basic and that requires corrections that work on that level of development, which includes corporal punishments, which are easily interpreted and understood.

Quote:
Originally Posted by DancingMaenid View Post
While it's unlikely, there is some risk of damage being done to the spine or internal organs. Especially if a child is standing, the shock of the strike could potentially cause problems.
I find that scenario very unlikely without some very serious mitigating circumstances. If any child is that frail, jumping from their bed to their floor would have brought this to fruision long before the child was spanked by the parents.


Quote:
Originally Posted by DancingMaenid View Post
I grew up in a home where I knew my behavior could have consequences, but I was never afraid of my parents and never feared for my safety. I did, however, respect them. If I had been spanked, I can say confidently that I would have no respect for my parents.
As you have no basis of experience to draw from and are currently an adult that was never spanked, who obviously has an opinion based on something other than experience, I can see where you might say that. I am respected and well loved by all 4 of my children and none of them fear me despite their having been spanked as a punishment. All 4 have very different personalities and are strong individuals, so while you may feel this way in your circumstances, it doesn't expand to any type of universal reality.

Quote:
Originally Posted by DancingMaenid View Post
The problem with conditioning is that it's not reliable or logical. For instance, say two people fall off a horse. One might be scared to ride after that, and another might not be. Furthermore, people can become conditioned to things illogically. Someone might realize that the horse that threw them was especially temperamental and that another horse might be very unlikely to throw them, but may still be afraid of riding any horse.
All correction of children is to one point or another conditioning them. The ability to misinterpret a spanking and correction is a lot less than the possibility of a child forgetting the reason for the punishment during a "time-out" or other lengthy punishments. Again, the old "abuse" and spanking are synonymous ideology rears its head again. A swat on the buttocks and a short correction is very effective at ensuring association and is not the equivalent of being thrown from a horse. It is a baser function of the human mind to associate physical stimulus, while it takes higher and more complex functions to assimilate information and draw associations in non-physical encounters.


Quote:
Originally Posted by DancingMaenid View Post
In cases of parental conditioning, well, parents aren't always right. If a parent punished their child for voicing an opinion that the parents did not like, and the child then grew up to be very reserved about expressing themselves and hesitant to be assertive, would this be a positive thing?
How is this a spanking concern? Any negative re-enforcement would be just as likely to have this effect if the theory that other forms of correction are as good or better than spanking is to be believed. My children have all been spanked at one point or the other, yet all have their own opinions and are very much assertive in their beliefs. Of course they have been encouraged to be at liberty to be this way their entire lives.

Quote:
Originally Posted by DancingMaenid View Post
But some parents see hitting their children with objects as "spanking". In fact, I have encountered parents who felt that it was better to spank with paddles and similar objects because they felt spanking with their hand was less humane and sent the wrong message. These parents saw their actions as spanking and non-abusive.

I tend to disagree, but that is a judgment call. Have any of the parents you are referring to caused grievous injury to their children, either physically or emotionally? If so I would say that they crossed the line to abuse. I personally think there is too much possibility to do harm with any object, even unintentionally, and that is a practice I don't engage in. I will reiterate that no punishment should be imposed in anger. If as a parent you are angry, you have an obligation to refrain from allowing that anger to dictate your actions toward your children. Just yelling in anger is far more destructive and harmful than a spanking.


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Last edited by OldLupin; December 5th, 2007 at 5:24 pm.
  #56  
Old December 5th, 2007, 6:19 pm
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Re: Should spanking be made illegal? V.2

Quote:
Originally Posted by rigdoctorbri View Post
Though these are satirecal situations, they are essentially how things were and how they are today.
They are satirical, but I do not feel that they are representative of how things are today at all. Some may be, but they came about as changes due to history. I completely condone the reaction in Scenario #1, short of a prison or jail sentence, because of all the school shootings that have occurred between 1967 and now. Jack should have dropped his gun off at home before going to school. Scenario #2 should not be allowed either; some may experience fights as just a schoolboy tussle, but the reality is that bullying is an issue that should not be taken lightly. The third is fine, unless he really does have ADD and is not being diagnosed and treated. The rest are completely over-the-top.

I understand what you're trying to say, but things change because we as a society are learning from our past. Some changes may be from pure political motives, but I think most really do take root in preventative measure.


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  #57  
Old December 5th, 2007, 6:48 pm
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Re: Should spanking be made illegal? V.2

Quote:
Originally Posted by YellowPoofBall View Post
They are satirical, but I do not feel that they are representative of how things are today at all. Some may be, but they came about as changes due to history. I completely condone the reaction in Scenario #1, short of a prison or jail sentence, because of all the school shootings that have occurred between 1967 and now. Jack should have dropped his gun off at home before going to school. Scenario #2 should not be allowed either; some may experience fights as just a schoolboy tussle, but the reality is that bullying is an issue that should not be taken lightly. The third is fine, unless he really does have ADD and is not being diagnosed and treated. The rest are completely over-the-top.

I understand what you're trying to say, but things change because we as a society are learning from our past. Some changes may be from pure political motives, but I think most really do take root in preventative measure.
Yet in many ways we must wonder if the "cure" isn't worse than the "disease". Not all change is progress.
Actually, bullying is a bad issue to use to support now over then. The reduction in willingness for young men to engage in physical confrontations has actually expanded bullying. Where in the past most would say that it existed, but wasn't a specific problem for them, now bullying seems to be far more widespread and effects a lot more people. Not to seem cliché, but in the "olden days" you stood up to the bully and he was not as big a threat. Now if you stand up to the bully, you are expelled and/or arrested. Young men having physical altercations and resolving it without the need for weapons or gang mentality is a good and natural thing and in many cases builds both respect for others as well as self-confidence. It isn’t criminal to defend yourself and especially in males the repression of both that instinct and the fruition of that instinct creates large anger issues and in some cases violent acts that do involve weapons and gang mentalities. Most young men who have brought weapons to school to kill their classmates have had their defense instinct repressed and withheld for years until desperation sets in. Had they defended themselves earlier on and at least felt like they could make a stand that reaction would not have been nearly as likely and devastating consequences could have been averted. While the number of violent acts like schoolyard fights may be less since the policy of feminizing males has gained prominence the scale of the violent acts has grown exponentially. In effect instead of a lot of small fights we get huge blow-ups. I’d rather the small fights. Men are by nature territorial and aggressive and by repressing those impulses we neither eliminate them or mitigate them, we simply represses them. Most find other outlets and relief, but some channel it into irrational rage against the whole world or specifically who they feel are responsible, yet they are unable to defend themselves from.
In short, schoolboy fights are the antidotes to bullies, not the cause of them. Bullies thrive on being unchallenged and we have created a bully nirvana in the schools by punishing the kids who stand up for themselves with a punishment severe enough to ensure acquiescence to the more aggressive kids will. As the more aggressive kids are the bullies, they go unchecked.


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  #58  
Old December 5th, 2007, 6:55 pm
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Re: Should spanking be made illegal? V.2

Quote:
Originally Posted by rigdoctorbri View Post
Though these are satirecal situations, they are essentially how things were and how they are today.
But most of them have nothing to do with spanking. Second, most of them seem rather exaggerated and unlikely, or ignore the reasonable base behind the change. For instance, the example of the student who fails English and starts a lawsuit seems to suggest that the student is a Spanish-speaking immigrant. In the past, there was more pressure on immigrants to learn English, but there was also a strong pressure to assimilate and give up their cultural heritage by anglicizing their name and giving up their traditions. Today, immigrants are more likely to want to be able to hold onto their language and culture. It has nothing to do with the discipline of students, and if one immigrant student were to complain, it would probably be more likely to effect the teaching of students who could not speak English, rather than all students.

And with school shootings, guns are a reasonable risk on school property, and students should be aware of their school's rules on it. Again, it has nothing to do with discipline or spanking.

Quote:
Originally Posted by OldLupin View Post
I would request some explanation of the “harmful to some children” assertion as well. I will again remind everyone that spanking is not violent beatings or beatings with implements, and therefore acts of actual abuse are a specious argument in this debate.
I already used myself as an example of someone who may well have been harmed by spanking. As a child, I think there was a good chance that I was suffering from undiagnosed childhood depression. My parents never knew this. My mom wasn't aware of the problem until I finally told her years later what I'd been going through at the time. This wasn't because they were neglectful parents--I was very good at hiding things and was determined that they not know because I thought I'd have to go to the hospital. During that time of my life, I took any parental discipline extremely hard, and had a strong fear of rejection. So thinking about this, I have to wonder if, had I been spanked, I might have killed myself or tried to run away (something I thought about doing every day, even without a reason). It's a definite possibility.

Not all children are the same. They will not react to punishments the same. Some even healthy children suffer from spankings. There have been studies suggesting that spanking can increase the risk of agressiveness and depression, especially if done frequently.

How many adults get a “time out” when they misbehave?[/quote]

Well, there's jail...

Quote:
As you have no basis of experience to draw from and are currently an adult that was never spanked, who obviously has an opinion based on something other than experience, I can see where you might say that.
I was not spanked as a child, and I was not spanked by my parents, but I would not say that I have no idea of what it can be like or what it feels like. I do personally know what spanking can feel like, which is all I'll say about my personal experience with it.

Quote:
All correction of children is to one point or another conditioning them. The ability to misinterpret a spanking and correction is a lot less than the possibility of a child forgetting the reason for the punishment during a "time-out" or other lengthy punishments.
Time out is rarely lengthy, since it's recommended to do according to the child's age. A toddler would not be in time out for more than a minute or two.

Quote:
How is this a spanking concern? Any negative re-enforcement would be just as likely to have this effect if the theory that other forms of correction are as good or better than spanking is to be believed. My children have all been spanked at one point or the other, yet all have their own opinions and are very much assertive in their beliefs. Of course they have been encouraged to be at liberty to be this way their entire lives.
My argument was on the notion that conditioning, in itself, is a positive thing. It can be, but conditioning in itself does not enable people to make good decisions or grow as a person. In the horse example, someone might learn from being thrown if they were thrown through some fault of their own and the experience taught them take greater safety measures in the future. But being scared of horses permanently would not be a good result, or would being scared help the person make better choices, unless the problem was that they didn't get along with horses, in general. With spanking, you can't guarentee what the result will be, even if you can help it somewhat.


  #59  
Old December 6th, 2007, 5:03 am
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Re: Should spanking be made illegal? V.2

I liked the satirical situations. I found a lot of them to be very true. I have a high school friend who used to play with fireworks behind his house as a kid...he burnt himself quite a few times and once melted off his eyebrows, but back then people weren't quite as uptight about things. He was playing with the same stuff about a year ago, and was arrested for "making chemical bombs". What he was doing wasn't safe I admit, but times have changed so much from just a few years ago. He's a good guy, just a little too much of a pyro for his own good. He doesn't deserve to be in jail, though.

I do agree with OldLupin's bullying statement partly. I think kids do need to be allowed to fight back to a bully...otherwise, what is there to stop the kid from being bullied? It's right that one day the kid could snap and cause a lot more damage than just a schoolyard tussle. (This is just from my point of view though. I went to school with kids who brought brass knuckles, knives, and even guns to the school, either to defend themselves or as bullies. We've had kids who just freaked out at their bullies and ended up getting tazered(sp?) by our school cops.) If a schoolyard tussle could nip things like that in the bud, shouldn't we let it? Isn't it putting the entire school at risk if we allow the bullying to continue until some kid snaps and pulls a columbine?


Quote:
How can we know that people "turned out fine"? Unfortunately, that's very difficult to measure. It's impossible, though, to say that entire generations turned out fine with spankings.
Did they live long, happy lives? Did they go into careers they liked, raise good families, and give them a good education? Did they basically go on to live good lives? I would say that the majority did so, and I would consider that to be "turned out fine". I personally have never heard one of those generations of people say anything negative about spanking. I would assume that the majority of them didn't become drug dealers, prostitutes, or depressed as a result of those spankings.
You'd think that the old, wise people would be speaking out strongly against spanking if they hadn't "turned out fine"...but they're not. I wonder why that is?


Quote:
Well, there's jail...
Yes, jail is a good timeout for adults. But one would assume that there would be other consequences before jail. Like losing a job, or house, or something. The majority of people don't randomly commit a crime so big as to warrant jail time, without first having committed smaller crimes/offenses that had different forms of punishment.


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Last edited by mac_attack; December 6th, 2007 at 5:08 am.
  #60  
Old December 6th, 2007, 6:43 pm
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Re: Should spanking be made illegal? V.2

Quote:
Originally Posted by DancingMaenid View Post
I already used myself as an example of someone who may well have been harmed by spanking. As a child, I think there was a good chance that I was suffering from undiagnosed childhood depression. My parents never knew this. My mom wasn't aware of the problem until I finally told her years later what I'd been going through at the time. This wasn't because they were neglectful parents--I was very good at hiding things and was determined that they not know because I thought I'd have to go to the hospital. During that time of my life, I took any parental discipline extremely hard, and had a strong fear of rejection. So thinking about this, I have to wonder if, had I been spanked, I might have killed myself or tried to run away (something I thought about doing every day, even without a reason). It's a definite possibility.
How is this an example of anything? This is a hypothetical based on a supposition, isn't it? I am not trying to say you are wrong or right, just that this isn't really an example of anything tangible. You might have reacted as you suppose, or you might have reacted differently and it could just as easily have developed more security earlier and made the depression issue less severe. I think the supposition is based largely in a preconceived notion of spanking being violent or cruel and that may be shading the hypothesis in this case.

Quote:
Originally Posted by DancingMaenid View Post
Not all children are the same. They will not react to punishments the same. Some even healthy children suffer from spankings. There have been studies suggesting that spanking can increase the risk of agressiveness and depression, especially if done frequently.
I would like to see these studies; specifically who conducted them and what control groups are used. While I have already mentioned that I am raising four very different individuals and do concede that everyone is different, I don't concede that appropriate spanking is a catalyst for aggressiveness and depression, on the contrary there is a very reasoned psychological basis for it likely having the opposite effect on children. The shear fact that it works on a lower level of acknowledgement makes it more understandable and associated in young children than punishments that require reason to decipher. As higher reasoning is not well developed until adolescence, corrective actions involving physical stimulus have a better chance of affecting behavior. It should be noted that at no time was spanking given as an exclusive means of punishment, just a reasonable and effective means in many cases.

Quote:
Originally Posted by DancingMaenid View Post
Well, there's jail...
Jail is not a "time out" for adults. It is an isolation from loved ones, security and freedom and insertion into a syatem where you are exposed to other criminals and forced to live with them. The analogy is flawed in a plethera of ways both short and long term.


Quote:
Originally Posted by DancingMaenid View Post
Time out is rarely lengthy, since it's recommended to do according to the child's age. A toddler would not be in time out for more than a minute or two.
For a toddler a minute or two is a lifetime. Lengthy is a subjective term. My point is that if you ask a toddler after a two-minute "time out" why they were put in time out, you only have about a 50-50 chance they will remember correctly. In terms of association of consequence with the action that isn't a very good means of correction. In some ways, if the time out is short enough for them to associate it isn't much of a deterrent and if it is long enough to be a deterrent it is more apt to be associated poorly or interpreted as a simple act of rejection or disapproval which is a pretty negative outcome for a child. I am not saying time outs are not useful, but it shouldn't be used to correct more serious and possibly dangerous behavior.


Quote:
Originally Posted by DancingMaenid View Post
My argument was on the notion that conditioning, in itself, is a positive thing. It can be, but conditioning in itself does not enable people to make good decisions or grow as a person. In the horse example, someone might learn from being thrown if they were thrown through some fault of their own and the experience taught them take greater safety measures in the future. But being scared of horses permanently would not be a good result, or would being scared help the person make better choices, unless the problem was that they didn't get along with horses, in general. With spanking, you can't guarentee what the result will be, even if you can help it somewhat.
There is no guarantee in parenting in any way. The whole point is that spanking is a reasonable means of disciplining. How would your horse example be any differently applied with countless other means of correcting your children?


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