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Old March 21st, 2010, 9:10 pm
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Re: Snape and Lily: Joint Character Analysis v.4

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Originally Posted by The_Green_Woods View Post
Obviously not agreeing with everything the person I love asks of me. I don't know if I can define love correctly, but I can say that disagreeing with one's lover/friend is certainly not an indication of lack of love or respect. IMO.
Under normal circumstances, yes, it's reasonable and natural for a person to expect that a friend would accept their decisions. However, when said friend is becoming involved in something dangerous, prejudicial and illegal, a good friend will advise them against it. Not say "Oooh you want to join a racist gang? Well, I'm a member of the group they target, but it's your decision, so I'll support you as a good friend".

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I think Snape loved Lily in spite of her faults and I think he respected her too, though he also disagreed with her on a few things. I don't think such disagreement takes away anything from Snape or the love he had for her.
I don't see that teenage Snape respected Lily -he used the word Mudblood against her - which says he considered her inferior. That's what the word means, we're told in canon and nothing in canon denies the meaning of that word. He goes on to join a group of people who want to eradicate people of her birth. I don't see the respect.

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For me understandable was the circumstance. I also understand that the word was unforgivable. I don't blame Lily was breaking with Snape because of this; I simply wonder what made her accept this racial insult before.
I'm sorry, I don't think a racial insult is ever understandable, under any circumstance.

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Then one wonders why Lily did not take it up when Snape was calling Muggleborns by that name.
Perhaps she didn't know, until her housemates told her after the Mudblood incident.

Or, if she did know, this incident brought her to her senses.
Just as it brought Snape to his senses to discover that his information had led to Voldemort hunting down Lily. There's a huge difference, I think, in the things it took to cause them to wake up and smell the coffee. That's assuming Lily did know about Snape insulting others with that word.

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Originally Posted by Pearl_Took View Post
And for a long time she cared for him as a friend very much, despite his.
Well said.

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Like that whole issue of other wizards despising people of her racial blood? Yup, that was certainly quite an area of disagreement between them.


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Originally Posted by bellatrix93 View Post
It didn't make his love less. Probably, his love wasn't enough, in the first place. . It was not enough to make him totally abandon his DE friends or forget his facinction with the Dark Arts
Good point

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Originally Posted by eliza101 View Post
Then he had the nerve to go to her and try to say that he was sorry he had called her by the name, not that he was sorry he thought the word was wrong, that being a racist was wrong, that he was wrong. That he was the worst possible friend to her and that he would change.
And by change I mean that he would change because being a racist is a terrible, horrible thing, not because he had called her by that terrible word. He didn't do this. He compounded his error. He said he was sorry for all the wrong things. He said he was sorry for what he did, not for what he thought. Lily did not owe him her understanding or forgiveness, he owed her much, much more.
I agree, Snape needed to change that mindset before Lily could forgive him.
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"I never meant to call you Mudblood. It just-"
DH, page 542, UK edition. He's apologising for the word, trying to make excuses, instead of apologising for that mindset, and saying that he will try to change that.

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Originally Posted by eliza101 View Post
Love for whom or should I ask for what? The Lily that existed, a person in her own right? Or the Lily of Snape's fancy? The Lily that did not mind being called a disgusting name or the very real young girl who minded it very much? Snape loves, yes. But what exactly does he love?
That's an interesting point - I find Snape's "I won't let you-" in TPT indicative. As well as ignoring what she has to say about his friends once she insults James Potter. I think Snape held an ideal of Lily, of who he wanted her to be -someone who returned his feelings, not someone who only saw him as a friend until SWM.

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Originally Posted by Muggle_Magic View Post
She still liked Severus, and tried to steer him away from his dangerous path, also took his defense until he said the unforgivable word, "Mudblood".
I think she realised then that Severus wouldn't be steered away from that path by her advice, it was something he needed to see for himself. Unfortunately, it took something very drastic for him to turn away.

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After that, and after she married James, Snape's love turned into obsession. It wasn't the kind of selfless love that makes one rejoice at the loved one's happiness, and his jealousy of James, transferred to Harry, was stronger than his love for Lily. Yes, he put himself in deadly danger, and ended up dying for his love's son. Yes, his Patronus was his love's Patronus. But imo, his kind of love was not a healthy kind of love, nor a "friendly" kind of love.
That's how I see it, especially as he asked Dumbledore to protect Lily - he didn't care about her husband and child. If it was truly a selfless love, he would have wanted the people most important to her to be safe, too.

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Sorry if I'm repeating things that have been said dozens of times before, I didn't read the whole of this thread, and none of the previous versions.
I reckon most things said here on this thread have been said before, I wouldn't worry about it.

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Originally Posted by The_Green_Woods View Post
@Snape loved Lily :: I think Snape loved Lily. I don't think she was a Lily who took a different shape in Snape's mind or someone who existed only in his dreams. I think Snape loved Lily despite her faults (the biggest one and one unforgivable IMO being the lack of concern when she meets Snape for the first time after he was nearly killed); loving her for what she was, rather than for what he wanted her to become IMO.

Snape shows himself quite happy once she calls James Potter a toerag. She agrees with his opinion on the Marauders, who are only housemates to Lily at this stage. He then goes on to ignore her concerns about his friends - brushing it off as a laugh, having no interest once she had criticised James Potter. As eliza says, Severus Snape was in good health, she had no reason to fuss over him. Plus, how do we know this is the first time they met after the werewolf incident?


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Originally Posted by The_Green_Woods View Post
Actually Snape could have seized his chance here to really show Lily the type of pranks the Marauders played for fun. He could have ignored Dumbledore and told Lily what happened IMO.
And it would also show him as quite obsessed -listening to Sirius' advice, of all people, to go somewhere forbidden and dangerous just out of determined curiosity?
All of that didn't excuse what his friends did to Mary MacDonald. It seems to me that Snape only cares about someone being hurt or offended when it affects him negatively. Lily didn't see why he was obsessed with the Marauders in this regard -both before and after the werewolf incident, it seems. She considered them gits and left it at that.


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And so she need not care, you're saying, if I understand what you wrote. I disagree. I expect more from people who say they are friends, best friends
I expect more from best friends too - such as not considering them inferior, such as listening to their advice, such as not despising their child.


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