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Old March 17th, 2010, 2:42 am
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Re: Snape and Lily: Joint Character Analysis v.4

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Originally Posted by mysterious View Post
Snape was merely a teenager when he made that mistake, and under a lot of stress too. Now that doesn't make him innocent or anything, but he had learned a lesson he wasn't going to forget immediately. Once that was seen through then we enter Snape as an adult, a mature person who I don't think would make such a mistake.
I'm not talking about adult Snape who had seen the error of his DE ways. I'm talking about teenage Snape - suppose Lily had just accepted his apology - what would there be to stop him from calling her a Mudblood next time he wasn't in control of himself? It has been pointed out before that Snape said that to her because he lost control under the circumstances. I don't see what would have prevented it from happening again.

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Originally Posted by The_Green_Woods View Post
Nothing really. Snape realised what he'd done was wrong, which was why he came to apologise for his comment. Lily could have accepted his apology because she knew how humiliating it was for Snape; under what circumstances he had shouted at her. Or she could have told him to get lost, which is what she did. She was at perfect liberty to do what she wanted to IMO.
What about Lily's humiliation in this situation? She was in no way obliged to accept the apology, what he had said was accurately described as "unforgivable" by Harry. Why would she want to be friends with someone who saw her in that way, and made an exception for her because she was Lily, because she was powerful, because he loved her?

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Harry is a lot more mature than James or Lily IMO, for he understood both Lily's anger and Snape's humiliation, which Lily failed to acknowledge. I do think it was because she had already chosen to break off with Snape and this IMO gave her the excuse to do it. Please note, I am not saying calling muggleborns names is justified; I am only saying best friends and loved ones make a lot of allowances for each other, going over the top, at times.
And more mature than Snape for that matter, as he didn't show any sign of understanding just how humiliating that must have been for Lily - the friend she'd stood by and stood up for turning the most vile word in the wizarding world on her? I think the meaning behind that word is often overlooked in analysis of SWM. It is the most foul, demeaning word in the wizarding world, according to several sources. It implies the person it's directed at is inferior because of their birth. I think Lily had every reason not to want to be friends with someone who embraced that ideology and I don't see any evidence that she was looking for an excuse to end the friendship.



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Originally Posted by OldMotherCrow View Post
I'd put it the other way around, that Lily would be hypocritical if she accepted Severus's apology and didn't break off the friendship when she knew he called other Muggleborns "Mudblood". My impression was that his calling her Mudblood confirmed what others had been telling her but she had not wanted to believe. I felt that her breaking off the friendship was her making a decision to not be hypocritical, and to do the right thing.
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Originally Posted by mysterious View Post
I think it is the exact opposite. Had Lily accepted the apology and continued being friends with Severus, that would have been hypocritical. Moreover she didn't break their friendship just because of that one incident. She didn't approve of the path Snape had chosen. They were standing at a crossroad and unless they broke the link joining them they would not end up going in the paths they both separately aspired for.

ETA-Totally agree with OldMotherCrow
I'll third that. It would have been hypocritical of Lily to continue a friendship with someone whose major choices were so at odds with her own. I'll also say I think she shows self-respect, by not accepting an apology and continuing a friendship with someone who has betrayed her in that way - and in my mind, calling her Mudblood was a betrayal.

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Originally Posted by MistressofRaven View Post
I don't think either decision can be considered hypocritical. If she had accepted Snape's apology, that would not have necessarily meant that she was okay with him calling people "mudblood." She could have accepted on the condition that he change. I think that would have been possible since he seemed to realize what a big mistake he'd made.
I don't think he recognised that using that word and holding that attitude was wrong, he only regretted that he upset Lily by using it. He didn't regret considering people Mudbloods, not as a teenager, at any rate. What motivation would Severus have to change if Lily just accepted his apology for something that serious? He could have just figured, well she doesn't really mean it, she'll accept me, prejudices and all and accept an apology again next time.

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Originally Posted by OldMotherCrow View Post
I think it needed to be the other way around for Lily, though-- instead of her accepting his apology on condition that he change, he needed to change before she could accept his apology. I think she was right to strike out on her own to do the right thing, and not hang around doing nothing so she could be the prize for some boy as a reward for his good behavior. I'm glad she didn't set herself up to be that. I think mysterious is right, and it was a crossroads-- perhaps even a more momentus one for Lily than Severus.
I agree - it's not a true apology without change.
Also, yes, Lily had every right to choose who she wanted to be with - nobody is obliged to return someone else's feelings, no matter how genuine or deep those feelings are. Lily isn't a bad person just because it wasn't Severus Snape's feelings that she returned.

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Originally Posted by OldMotherCrow View Post
I don't agree, and it is for a different thread. To remain friends with Snape I feel would have required Lily to compromise her fundemental ideals. It appears to me that she did not want to do that.
I think so, too - Lily seemed to already intend to join the fight against Voldemort while Severus was echoing DE sentiments about people of her birth. Was she supposed to just accept Snape's attitude that "well, intelligent, powerful mudbloods- especially if they're called Lily Evans- are okay?"


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