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Liselle November 28th, 2016 7:36 pm

Layers in fantastic beasts and where to find them
 
*Dusts things off*

So we used to have these exceptionally wonderful (magical) conversations about the Harry Potter universe - now we have a whole other bunch of magical characters to know, love and understand, what can we learn? Based on the ultimate outcome from Half Blood Prince/Deathly Hallows/Tales of Beedle the Bard, is there anything we can learn or speculate on?


:hmm:

whizbang121 November 28th, 2016 7:46 pm

Re: Layers in fantastic beasts and where to find them
 
YES!
Yesterday, I couldnt remember the new password to my email, but this one rolled off my fingers perfectly. Im not sure what that means.

So, Liselle, are we the only ones from Ye Olde Dayes who have seen the film? lol

So we have been speculating on mugglenet's fb fanpage that the Mary Lou might have been a squib and possibly related to Credence. She seems to know a great deal about witches.
My grandson, (Remember the karate kid? He's 20), suggested that perhaps Credence has survived and become so powerful because he didnt start to repress his magic until he was already in puberty, older than ten.
Any ideas?

Liselle November 28th, 2016 7:54 pm

Re: Layers in fantastic beasts and where to find them
 
Some folks do come in from time to time, we should definitely give them a reason to!

Ok so I'm going to operate under the assumption anyone posting here has either read the screenplay or seen the movie.

MaryLou was really disturbing in her approach to the Children and her absolute zeal against magic in all its forms. Being a squib would absolutely fit that perfectly. Credence was just so very sad, I viewed that scene where he's taking the wand out from under the bed as that was his wand; like he's of age + where hed have a wand so maybe he did actually get a wand or inherit a wand from his parents before being adopted by MaryLou.

I think you're right that maybe he went to repress his magic - we know Harry unconsciously was performing magic when he didn't know he was magical so clamping down deliberately on magic must take
1) Iron will
2) Amazing magical ability.

its going to literally leak out.

whizbang121 November 28th, 2016 8:10 pm

Re: Layers in fantastic beasts and where to find them
 
I have really been out of the loop since DH and the folks at the mugglenet fb group are much more on top of things. If I understand correctly, a child has to know that they are magical in order to become an obscurial, so Harry and Tom Riddle wouldnt have done it. But Ariana seems to have been the perfect example. Also the title page of the original 2002 Fantastic Beasts in the US shows the scholastic publisher and one called Obscurus in London.

So much to catch up on. Daunting.

Liselle November 28th, 2016 8:22 pm

Re: Layers in fantastic beasts and where to find them
 
:lol: tell me about it.

I hadn't come across an obscurus before (I am in the middle of some renovations in the house so my books are not to hand) or at least that I remember. But even aside from that the whole not allowing any magic out and being so super careful and tightly wound must take some amount of skill.

What about Modesty, I know that Credence had managed to throw everyone off the scent that it was him and not Modesty but do you think we've seen the last of her?

And have we seen the last of Credence? The final whisps of the obscurus were very slow to dissipate.

Quote:

A young witch or wizard, usually under the age of ten but sometimes older, who has kept their magical ability repressed until it becomes an Obscurus – a violent force of Dark Magic which may burst forth from them unexpectedly.
I don't know if there's a mention on having to know but maybe its implied?



oh and I think you're right on Ariana Dumbledore. 100%

whizbang121 November 28th, 2016 8:29 pm

Re: Layers in fantastic beasts and where to find them
 
Yes. Well renovating is serious fun. :) Enjoy! It's a very exciting time. Im on the other side of it, downsizing.
I dont know for sure where that info came from. They have kept up with interviews and such, although I have noticed that occasionally there is conflict between info from Heyman and Yates, so Im inclined to only accept JKR. Pottermore, which I never joined and Im scrambling about now, and movie books I havent seen. An avalanche of information! Also, someone kindly explained the term "headcanon" to me this morning. As near as I can tell, it amounts to educated guesses about characters.
I wish I had thought of Ariana, but I guess it's commonly accepted among true believers.

Liselle November 28th, 2016 8:37 pm

Re: Layers in fantastic beasts and where to find them
 
Wow, I've enough time just keeping up with what I see to be actual Canon (i.e. anything from the pen of Jo so that would be books, potter more and fantastic beasts!).

There has been a deluge of information recently alright and trying to decipher it all, sift through it and get it straight in your head. I just find it particularly interesting that we have one set of characters from the HP series and then people related to them a few generations earlier. Its fascinating.

And really, show me the person who wouldn't like some Giggle Water!

Interestingly - and I know I'm straying into something close to one of the magical creatures but the fact there were house elves and goblins and other magical beings all in that speakeasy is progressive. I think way more so than European countries of the time.

willfitz November 29th, 2016 2:06 am

Re: Layers in fantastic beasts and where to find them
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Liselle (Post 6107567)
Wow, I've enough time just keeping up with what I see to be actual Canon (i.e. anything from the pen of Jo so that would be books, potter more and fantastic beasts!).

Bingo. I'm more than happy to include this new series in canon, although so far it doesn't seem to me like it will hold up to the level of scrutiny that the books did, details-wise.

Thanks for opening up a thread to discuss this new addition!

Liselle November 29th, 2016 6:21 pm

Re: Layers in fantastic beasts and where to find them
 
With pleasure :) I'm always happy to indulge my love of Harry Potter -dom!

I'm really curious who Leta Estrange is and if we'll get to see her and everything.

MrSleepyHead November 29th, 2016 8:11 pm

Re: Layers in fantastic beasts and where to find them
 
It looks like we will:
SnitchseekerSnitchSeeker: So, we saw Dumbledore's name, we saw Grindelwald's name. There's a third familiar name that came up - Lestrange. Can you talk a bit about Zoe Kravitz's casting and how much bigger a role it will be going forward?
David Heyman: Leta Lestrange is a character we will see in the next film. She's probably misunderstood. Not altogether a happy person. We will see her in the films to come. Clearly, as you can tell from this, there was a relationship between her and Newt, and she still holds - no pun intended - a spell over him in some way. Not literally, a spell.

SnitchSeeker: Are we expecting to see a love triangle?
David Heyman: (shrugs)

And from David Yates:
CinemaBlendYes. Leta Lestrange comes into the second movie. She’s quite complicated and damaged and confused, and Newt is absolutely still in love with her. So, she has a kind of power over him, and she, yeah, she’s a kind of tragic figure, so we will see a bit more of her in the second movie.

willfitz November 29th, 2016 10:15 pm

Re: Layers in fantastic beasts and where to find them
 
It definitely seems like a natural and popular theory that Ariana Dumbledore was an Obscurial. It was my immediate reaction to the description of what an obscurus was, so I was not surprised to find people already discussing it on here.

I particularly am on-board with the theory suggesting that the culmination of this story will be Grindelwald and Dumbledore's clash leading to Ariana's death. Seems very likely. I wonder if Newt will still be involved in any way at that point of the story.

MrSleepyHead November 29th, 2016 10:30 pm

Re: Layers in fantastic beasts and where to find them
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by willfitz (Post 6107594)
I particularly am on-board with the theory suggesting that the culmination of this story will be Grindelwald and Dumbledore's clash leading to Ariana's death. Seems very likely. I wonder if Newt will still be involved in any way at that point of the story.

I think it would be Grindelwald and Dumbledore's final duel, no? At this point, Ariana is already dead and seems likely to have been the catalyst for Grindelwald to search out another Obscurial. JKR confirmed the series would cover 19 years, which would put the fifth film at 1945 - the year of the duel.

whizbang121 November 30th, 2016 10:10 pm

Re: Layers in fantastic beasts and where to find them
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by willfitz (Post 6107594)
It definitely seems like a natural and popular theory that Ariana Dumbledore was an Obscurial. It was my immediate reaction to the description of what an obscurus was, so I was not surprised to find people already discussing it on here.

https://twitter.com/TheRawHibachi/st...87884637302784

But it didnt kill her, at least not by the account we have. And do I remember that she was 14 when she died?

In other discussions, Im entertaining the possibility that Mary Lou was a squib. This could explain how she knew about witches in a community where No Majs get obliviated three time zones out if they have an inkling about the magical world.

My grandson suggested that Credence may have been older than ten, perhaps past puberty when he began to repress his magic. This could explain why he is still alive and also why it is so powerful. The question arises, why hasnt it killed him? I think that his anger is not self directed. He doesnt blame himself the way many younger children would. For example, young children tend to blame themselves when parents get divorced. But if Credence was old enough to be beyond this stage, his anger would be directed outward and with time, he may even have gained some control over it.

There is also the possibility that he is protecting Modesty. Modesty sings her songs in the first person. My momma, your momma.. (I havent got to the part about the toy wand in the book yet, but I wonder why she would have one at all under Mary Lou's supervision.) Is Modesty a witch or descended from one? Is Credence trying to protect her? If so, this is another example of JKR's favorite theme, self sacrifice.

Lots to think about, including why an American actress has been cast as Leta. Is she an American? Is her mother, witch or No-Maj, from the US and her father British? Maybe she was raised here and got an invitation to Hogwarts on what might be called dual citizenship? If so, being the sole American in the school could account for her being an outcast. If she is a half blood, it would account for Newt's antagonism to MACUSA's stringent rules about relations between Magical and non magical people. It would also explain her absence from family trees.

willfitz December 2nd, 2016 6:04 pm

Re: Layers in fantastic beasts and where to find them
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by whizbang121 (Post 6107612)
https://twitter.com/TheRawHibachi/st...87884637302784

But it didnt kill her, at least not by the account we have. And do I remember that she was 14 when she died?

No, but then it's still entirely possible. It's not as though Obscurus attacks kill the Obscurial 100% of the time. If it was, Credence would've been dead at the start of this movie. It seems highly likely that Ariana was doomed to eventually die from the condition, but was of course killed prior to that happening.

Quote:

Originally Posted by MrSleepyHead (Post 6107597)
I think it would be Grindelwald and Dumbledore's final duel, no? At this point, Ariana is already dead and seems likely to have been the catalyst for Grindelwald to search out another Obscurial. JKR confirmed the series would cover 19 years, which would put the fifth film at 1945 - the year of the duel.

Yes, that absolutely makes more sense.

Liselle December 5th, 2016 7:34 am

Re: Layers in fantastic beasts and where to find them
 
I really hate to think that Grindelwald could have been just using Dumbledore because of his sister - although blatantly he's not going to be a loveable character it just seems so callous.

Whiz, I'm with you on the Credence thing, its not a stretch at all. I'm wondering if he just started repressing his magic if maybe he saw something happen to his parents and he just wanted to be accepted - or whatever twisted version of that given Mary Lou might have wanted to "protect" him from magic. Its a rather twisted parallel and cautionary tale of what could have been for Harry if he'd been less strong himself.

HMN December 6th, 2016 2:53 am

Re: Layers in fantastic beasts and where to find them
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Liselle (Post 6107563)
MaryLou was really disturbing in her approach to the Children and her absolute zeal against magic in all its forms. Being a squib would absolutely fit that perfectly. Credence was just so very sad, I viewed that scene where he's taking the wand out from under the bed as that was his wand; like he's of age + where he'd have a wand so maybe he did actually get a wand or inherit a wand from his parents before being adopted by MaryLou.

From the HP Wikia
Mary Lou BareboneMary Lou Barebone at some point became the leader of the New Salem Philanthropic Society, an American No-Maj anti-witchcraft group located in New York. Her hatred towards wizardkind led her to adopt children with magical backgrounds in an attempt to suppress the magic within by raising them to despise witchcraft. By December of 1926, Mary Lou had three adopted children.

I agree that she must have been a squib in order to hate magic the way she does. Her whole story was such a parallel to the religious right, with things like conversion therapy for gays. She was seeking out kids who came from magical backgrounds and trying to convert them. Jo always has social commentary in her stories, and I appreciated it with this storyline. How there are some things you can't change about people no matter how much you break them down. That people are born with who they are.

I'd like to know the back story of the 3 kids, but especially Credence. I wonder if it was a parent's wand, like you said, or if it was a gift from Graves. It was surprising how not well hidden it was, just laying there under the bed. I'd like to think it was one of his parents but then how had he kept it hidden from Mary Lou all that time? Maybe it was out because he was wavering in trying to keep his magic inside of him and he was ready to rebel? I don't know.

I mentioned in another thread the parallel to Ariana. Her holding in her magic after she was traumatized. However she was holding it in because she had experienced pain because outsiders saw who she really was, and her loving family couldn't get her to come out and be herself again. Credence was holding it in because he was taken in by someone who was 'caring' for him and was against it. He'd be homeless otherwise, I am curious what happened to his parents.

witchsmart December 6th, 2016 2:56 am

Re: Layers in fantastic beasts and where to find them
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Liselle (Post 6107674)
I really hate to think that Grindelwald could have been just using Dumbledore because of his sister - although blatantly he's not going to be a loveable character it just seems so callous.

I agree, what I found most intriguing about their storyline is that both seemed to have started with (what was to them) noble intentions--the betterment of wizard kind. But when things became serious, it was Albus who stepped back and refused to go further with Grindelwald's plans. That a genuine friendship existed between them and was torn apart by different ideals and morals is much more interesting, to me at least, than Grindelwald having ulterior motives from the start, and it makes him a more complex character. But I can see his interest in Ariana fanning the flames that eventually drove them apart.

HMN December 6th, 2016 2:57 am

Re: Layers in fantastic beasts and where to find them
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Liselle (Post 6107674)
I really hate to think that Grindelwald could have been just using Dumbledore because of his sister - although blatantly he's not going to be a loveable character it just seems so callous.

I think Grindlewald saw what happened to Ariana and sought out another like her to try and harness the power. That Ariana was the catalyst for his research into how powerful he could become if he found another. He seemed to have a premonition of sorts that there was a child like this in NY which included Credence, but I'd like more explanation on how that happened. Was it a prophecy? I don't think Grindlewald was using Dumbledore for his sister, I think when she died, he went running - to America - and it caused him to seek out more power in the same form with another child.

witchsmart December 6th, 2016 3:01 am

Re: Layers in fantastic beasts and where to find them
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by HMN (Post 6107690)
He seemed to have a premonition of sorts that there was a child like this in NY which included Credence, but I'd like more explanation on how that happened. Was it a prophecy?

I did wonder about this when he mentioned "seeing" the child. If it was a vision, it didn't reveal the identity of the child. Maybe it was a "sense," like when he (incorrectly) said he didn't sense a drop of magic in Credence and told him he was a Squib? Or maybe he just said it for Credence's benefit.

HMN December 6th, 2016 3:02 am

Re: Layers in fantastic beasts and where to find them
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by MrSleepyHead (Post 6107597)
I think it would be Grindelwald and Dumbledore's final duel, no? At this point, Ariana is already dead and seems likely to have been the catalyst for Grindelwald to search out another Obscurial.

Exactly. I seemed to have missed a page of posts when I replied! I totally agree with this assessment.

Quote:

Originally Posted by witchsmart (Post 6107691)
I did wonder about this when he mentioned "seeing" the child. If it was a vision, it didn't reveal the identity of the child. Maybe it was a "sense," like when he (incorrectly) said he didn't sense a drop of magic in Credence and told him he was a Squib? Or maybe he just said it for Credence's benefit.

Maybe all he saw was the girl and knew it was someone connected to her, but he didn't know who. I felt that he singled Credence out because of his age. He seemed to court him almost as a lover. I could see Credence not necessarily being gay, but desiring real love from someone, and seeking that from Graves/Grindlewald. And because of the age, Graves/Grindy didn't suspect him at all. I think the didn't sense a drop of magic comment was just to screw with his mind. To express that he was being used the whole time and the connection wasn't real.


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