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Morgoth June 27th, 2011 9:46 pm

Severus Snape: Character Analysis Reboot v.5
 
Let's try and allow calmer heads to prevail in this debate. See, there's no beef between them at all.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v2...redofdrama.jpg

Welcome, everyone, to the fifth instalment of the reboot thread!


Introductory information: Snape is a very controversial character and a lot of fans have very passionate opinions about him, which they are ready to defend at all costs. Unfortunately, this often makes the discussion less than amiable and we had to close Snape threads in the past and turn Legilimency Studies into a HOT ZONE. So fair warning, post according to our guidelines and rules, or go on a very long holiday from the forum.

There is no doubt Snape is a very complex character. He's an awful figure to many, a cruel and vindictive individual without a shred of decency or humanity. To others he's a tragic hero, complicated by a love he couldn't openly express and mourning the loss of his opportunities.

The focus of the reboot threads is going to be on making sure the Snape thread can stay open, as we deal with individuals in the way our new Hot Zone policy dictates & outlined below.


A few study questions to get this thread started:

Questions
  1. Do you believe that Snape's soul was still intact after he had killed Dumbledore?
  2. To what extent, do you think, are Snape's parents to blame for his later choices and to what extent are they his own responsibility?
  3. Do you think Snape would have moved on if Lily had not died? Would he have turned to the good side in that case?
  4. Why do you think Snape was so reluctant to approach Lily? Would he have been interested in her if she had not been magical?
  5. How did Hogwarts effect the friendship between Snape and Lily? We see that up until fifth year they consider themselves to be "best friends", despite the house system. Do you think they both worked to maintain the friendship?
  6. How would Snape's life have been different if he had managed to save their friendship?
  7. Snape is revealed to have been acting throughout the series out of love for Lily, how does this effect your view of his actions in the series - his "murder" of Dumbledore, his treatment of Sirius?
  8. How do the revelations of DH impact your view of Snape's treatment of Harry and Neville throughout the series?
  9. Do you think he wanted or needed Harry's forgiveness on some level?
  10. What do you think about Snape's relationship with Dumbledore? Did they become friends or was Dumbledore a substitute father figure for him?
  11. Do you agree with the author's take on Snape's character as revealed in interviews?
  12. Which elements do you think make Snape the most controversial character of the series?
  13. What do you think are Snape's major strengths? What are his major flaws?
  14. If you had to summarize Snape's character to someone who had never read the books what would you tell them?



Everyone who chooses to post in this thread should read these guidelines beforehand and be aware of the Hot Zone Policy:

How to have a pleasant conversation on any topic.

REVISED: Character Bashing/Worship: aka Shades of Gray


From the Hot Zones Policy in The Notice BoardWarning System: HOT ZONES

The following forums & sub-forums are classed as hot zones. These areas will be subject to longer forum bans and one-strike rule:
  • Legilimency Studies
  • DoIMC

Typical length of ban:

Member with more than 30 days membership: 120 days
Member with under 30 days membership: 15 days
Member who duplicated account, thinking we wouldn’t know: FULL BAN (OF ALL ACCOUNTS)

Once you’ve served this ban, if it hasn’t been made apparent to you, then your next warning will be in the form of a strikethrough of your username. End of the line. Be aware, your reputation & popularity, length of membership to this site is irrelevant.

FutureAuthor13 June 27th, 2011 9:58 pm

Re: Severus Snape: Character Analysis Reboot v.5
 
Thanks for a new thread! :rotfl: at the tags.

Don't think I've answered this question before:
Quote:

Why do you think Snape was so reluctant to approach Lily? Would he have been interested in her if she had not been magical?
I think Snape was reluctant to approach Lily because he was an isolated, young boy; he didn't really know how to socialise and I think, even at that young age, a part of him knew it and that made him even more insecure/paranoid about talking to other people. I think the first thing that made Snape notice Lily in a positive light was her magical ability; if she was a Muggle, I think he would view her with the same contempt he did Petunia- partly because the rocky, unstable relationship he seemed to have with his father contributed to his prejudiced opinion of Muggles at that age. However, if he let himself meet Lily for long enough (if she was a Muggle) to know she wasn't at all like the portrayal of a Muggle he had encountered and created himself (embellishing negative traits his father possessed in his own mind), I think he may have grown to like her for the person she was. I believe Lily was the first way that Snape's unfair view on Muggles started to crumble; after the shock of meeting someone 'like him', he was simply drawn to her kind, spirited nature- that was such a contrast to what he usually experienced in his life.

Just my opinion. :)

snapespet June 27th, 2011 10:47 pm

Re: Severus Snape: Character Analysis Reboot v.5
 
I agree that he was too introverted to feel comfortable socializing and that he knew he wasn't good at it. It seemed it took time to get his nerve up to approach her and Snape felt frustrated when it didn't turn out like he had hoped.
If Lily was a muggle, I don't think he would have put the effort into trying. He would have assumed Lily was like other muggles he knew (like his dad) and Snape would have never let his guard down.

Quote:

How would Snape's life have been different if he had managed to save their friendship?
In order to salvage the relationship, Snape would have had to ditch his DE friends. If he had, at least they would have been friends and perhaps more (I think I remember reading a JKR quote from an interview stating that Lily may have grown to love him romantically if Snape hadn't been so blinded by the dark arts). He would have kept his head down in his house and he would have been alone (aside from Lily) but after graduation, his life would have been so much better. He could have reached his potential intellectually and socially.
Just my opinions of course
Morgoth - I love the picture :)

FutureAuthor13 June 27th, 2011 10:54 pm

Re: Severus Snape: Character Analysis Reboot v.5
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by snapespet (Post 5762527)
It seemed it took time to get his nerve up to approach her and Snape felt frustrated when it didn't turn out like he had hoped.

That's a good point, I agree. :agree: To add on, I think that was how one of his weaknesses as a character was born: Due to his upbringing, he wasn't adept at socialising. Consequently, he spent a long time (at least, that's how I intepret it) in planning his first meeting with Lily and soon realised that the expectation of the meeting was greater than the actual meeting itself; which is where his frustration came from. But, I think, over time, Snape relaxed a little in Lily's company and didn't obsess over every little detail in his manner etc as he did previously.

On the other hand, this 'planning' aspect could be viewed as a character strength later on in Snape's adult life which helped when being a spy/ when in combat and so on.

Just my opinion. :)

Dobson June 27th, 2011 11:48 pm

Re: Severus Snape: Character Analysis Reboot v.5
 
Quote:

Do you believe that Snape's soul was still intact after he had killed Dumbledore?
Yes, just because he killed DD because he was supposed to. He was "doing him a favor" and didn't do it out of hatred. I think it depends how bad he felt about it though, and we don't have much evidence of that as it's not his POV.

Quote:

To what extent, do you think, are Snape's parents to blame for his later choices and to what extent are they his own responsibility?
Well, every character has the ability to make his/her own decisions, but I always feel as though the parents heavily influence them. His home enviroment was not exactly a healthy one. Seeing his parents argue probably made him a bit hot-tempered and prone to becoming easily angry. I think it depends on what choices we're talking about here, but I'd like to say that they are a mixture of both his and his parent's responsibilities.

Quote:

Do you think Snape would have moved on if Lily had not died? Would he have turned to the good side in that case?
I think the only way he would have turned to the good side would have been if he had gotten his way. If he had ended up with Lily. I'm really not sure what he would have done. Maybe he would have gotten progressively more angry that she had married James rather than feeling remorse for her death later on.

Quote:

Why do you think Snape was so reluctant to approach Lily? Would he have been interested in her if she had not been magical?
Because he's quite introverted, maybe not shy, exactly, but definitely introverted. He just didn't know what he was going to say, I guess. No, I don't think he would have bothered if she hadn't shown magical ability. That was the whole reason he approached her in the first place: because he noticed her doing magic. They also wouldn't have seen each other at all because Snape would have been at Hogwarts while Lily would have been somewhere else.

Quote:

How did Hogwarts effect the friendship between Snape and Lily? We see that up until fifth year they consider themselves to be "best friends", despite the house system. Do you think they both worked to maintain the friendship?
It's nice to see that despite them being in rival houses, they held their friendship together for 5 years. I think for their first 4 years they did work to maintain it, then when they started their fifth year, things became tense. They were both trying to hold it together, but when Snape offended Lily she didn't want to be friends anymore. That was when Snape crossed the line for her, in my opinion.

Quote:

How would Snape's life have been different if he had managed to save their friendship?
I am inclined to think that they would have ended up married, because Lily wouldn't have given in to James as much. Besides, if Lily and James had gotten married while Lily and Snape were still friends, that friendship wouldn't have lasted much longer anyways.

Quote:

Which elements do you think make Snape the most controversial character of the series?
Well he's a very misunderstood character for most of the series. He has all sorts of problems. He's a DE who's actually working undercover for DD and the good side, and it's all for his lost love (who would even think Snape capable of such a strong emotion?!) who he actually broke up with as a teenager, and in this difficult and dangerous postion, he has to give a certain amount of information to the Dark side so as not to seem suspicious, while at the same time giving all the information he picks up back to DD. It's a complicated situation, but he's doing it why...again? For his teenage love who has been dead for quite some time. I don't blame him, it's just...odd. And then you have this whole issue with her son, who is the product of Snape's love and a man he despised. And he has to look into his eyes (Lily's eyes!) every day, and I'm sure he thought about what could have happened if he had ended up with her.

Quote:

What do you think are Snape's major strengths? What are his major flaws?
Snape is a very good spy, in my opinion. Except for all the prophecy issues, he did everything he was instructed to do. However, one of his main flaws his...hating Harry. I mean, I understand how he feels but he really, really made it obvious how much he "hated" him. Couldn't you just lighten up a bit, make his life a little easier?

Quote:

If you had to summarize Snape's character to someone who had never read the books what would you tell them?
Oh Gosh.
He's not what you think.

gertiekeddle June 28th, 2011 12:18 am

Re: Severus Snape: Character Analysis Reboot v.5
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by FutureAuthor13 (Post 5762501)
:rotfl: at the tags.

They are the bestest!


I do not want to interrupt the discussion, but since - judging by some feedback behind the scenes - my last post had the exact opposite effect than the one I intended, I'll spell out staff's point very directly and once more in public:
We're happy if you support us by using the report button - after all we can't spot all rule violations on our own. We really are. It's also no problem if you're unsure if a post should be reported at all; staff will check on every reported post very carefully.
If you, however, misuse the report button to gang-up against a single member as obviously as some members did recently (means: reporting every single post 3 or 4 times over quite some time), all you'll likely reach is that we rather give this member some more leeway than less.

Sorry for confusing the message in my last in-thread by creating this allegory to a HP character. Simply wanted to make sure that I'll reach a group of members who just seemed to not have realized what they do - apparently I didn't achieve this very well since it partly hit members not being involved. My fault entirely. :)



Please go on with the thread questions!

fluffyfan June 28th, 2011 2:55 am

Re: Severus Snape: Character Analysis Reboot v.5
 
Do you believe that Snape's soul was still intact after he had killed Dumbledore?
Yes it would still be intact, he was reluctant (which is similar to remorse imo), knowing that Albus would have been tortured before death he was in fact ensuring he died quickly with full knowledge that he was dieing anyway.

To what extent, do you think, are Snape's parents to blame for his later choices and to what extent are they his own responsibility?
to the extent that they caused him to be lonely, craving affection/inclusion and to a certain extent an angry young person, they must take full responsiblity. After a person gains the ability to forge their own way in the world they then must take full responsibility for their actions and cease to blame everyone else for the outcomes of said actions (again imho).

Do you think Snape would have moved on if Lily had not died? Would he have turned to the good side in that case?
No on both accounts, it was only the simple act that riddle decided to kill Lily that made him change sides, if riddle had gone after the Longbottom's I think he would have remained a de and thus wound up in Azkaban, due to the fact he had no interest in the Longbottom's, whereas he had an interest in Lily (note his patronus).

Why do you think Snape was so reluctant to approach Lily? Would he have been interested in her if she had not been magical?
He probably was hoping to get her on her own waiting for a chance to talk to her without petunia around. He would have shown little to no interest in Lily if she had not been magical from the way he treated Petunia and all other muggle born wizards and witches (princes tale where he called everyone of muggle blood "mudblood" as Lily pointed out after he called her that name).

How did Hogwarts effect the friendship between Snape and Lily? We see that up until fifth year they consider themselves to be "best friends", despite the house system. Do you think they both worked to maintain the friendship?
Lily was the main worker on the relationship, even though he was hanging out with future DE's and Lily knew it, she tried over and over to pull him away from the dark magic side of things, until he called her "mudblood" in a fit of anger, which made her decide to give him up as a bad idea, he had chosen his path and Lily had chosen hers. If Snape had been sinsere he would have seen the error of his way then and left those who were taking him down the wrong path and proven his remorse to Lily, yet he chose to become a DE knowing what they were and how much it would hurt Lily.

How would Snape's life have been different if he had managed to save their friendship?
He would not have become a DE, possibly been killed early on (you dont hand in your resegnation to voldy and get to live to tell the tale). He would not have been able to help Albus in the way he did and voldy may have actualy taken over in the first war (remember Severus did help stop Voldy by becoming a spy). But overall it is difficult to know exactly what he would have done if he had changed sides while still at school.

Snape is revealed to have been acting throughout the series out of love for Lily, how does this effect your view of his actions in the series - his "murder" of Dumbledore, his treatment of Sirius?
Wow, that is a toughy, did he actualy "murder" Albus? I personaly do not think so, due to the fact he knew he would be tortured when the DE's broke into Hogwarts, thus Severus was actualy ensuring Albus was killed quickly and taking the fun off the DE's. Some hatred/dislikes run deep and can never be overcome, but asa Sirius and CO were cruel to Severus for many years, I can somewhat understand why the hatred continued even once they were on the same side. you can't make people like each other. plus I think that Sirius never foregave Severus for Lily's and Jame's murders.

How do the revelations of DH impact your view of Snape's treatment of Harry and Neville throughout the series?
Still hate Severus for his treatment of Neville and Harry, it would have been better if he had shown little interest in them or ignored them completely (like he did after Harry saw his memories in OOTP). But he had to put on a good showing of still being a Voldies spy owing to the fact of the number of DE kids at Hogwarts, news travels fast in the facist world.

Do you think he wanted or needed Harry's forgiveness on some level?
No, he wanted, needed and was desperate for Lily's forgiveness, and the only way he could do that was through Albus and eventualy through Harry, so in a way it was a surrogate forgiveness.

What do you think about Snape's relationship with Dumbledore? Did they become friends or was Dumbledore a substitute father figure for him?
I think they became friends, and if you look at the books, Albus relied on Severus more than almost anyone for many years. the only people who knew the full extent of what was to happen was Albus, Severus and eventualy Harry. Seeing as Severus was playing spy and was in contact with an extremely powerful Legilimency expert, It showed how much Albus trusted him with such valueble information, and friendship.

Do you agree with the author's take on Snape's character as revealed in interviews?
Not read the interviews so have no idea.

Which elements do you think make Snape the most controversial character of the series?
The fact of him being a spy for many years would make most of his actions difficult to judge, needless to say, he played his part extremely well right up until he died and in the end I was sad that he actualy died, he like Serius died before they could be cleared of false charges. I hate when people die without being cleared of false claims, like Harry I like the truth no matter what it is.

What do you think are Snape's major strengths? What are his major flaws?
Loyalty, strength of charater, professionalism, are all good strengths of his. his inability to let go of his hatred for the marauders was I think his downfall (if in the lessons he had given Harry a break and treated him decently, Harry would have gone straight to Severus when he had the vision, thus saving him going to the ministry, thus saving Serius's life), this hatred caused in a way an unessessary death which Severus had to live with.

If you had to summarize Snape's character to someone who had never read the books what would you tell them?
A man who was put into an almost impossible situation of being a spy against very dark evil and nasty people. He did an extremely difficult job, was a good man who had serious flaws yet stayed true right until the end and aided in bringing down one of the most evil groups in history. basicaly he was a hero (an ordinary person who does extrodinary things, not without fear, but in spite of fear).

This is all simply my extremely humble opinion.

leah49 June 28th, 2011 3:34 am

Re: Severus Snape: Character Analysis Reboot v.5
 
I feel like I've answered this questions before, but what the hey. I'll answer them again.

Do you believe that Snape's soul was still intact after he had killed Dumbledore?
Yes. He wasn't murdering Dumbledore. It's like an assisted suicide. Dumbledore asked him to d oit.

To what extent, do you think, are Snape's parents to blame for his later choices and to what extent are they his own responsibility?
Snape's later choices are his responsibility. He needs to take responsibility for what he does. Parents can only do so much. It wasn't like he was following in their footsteps. What I mean is, it's not like he was raised in the Black house that pureblood is the only way to be. He may not have had a happy home, but they didn't instill in him to follow Voldemort's line of thinking. He did that on his own.

Do you think Snape would have moved on if Lily had not died? Would he have turned to the good side in that case?
I do not think he would have turned to the good side if Lily didn't die. If Voldemort had spared her he would have done what Snape asked him and that's what Snape wanted.
Would Snape have moved on? I don't know. The Snape we see is so consumed with his love for Lily that the answer could be no, but we don't know what Snape would be like if Lily hadn't died at the hands of Voldemort. There would be no psychological effect of Snape telling Voldemort enough of the prophecy to get him to kill Lily.

Why do you think Snape was so reluctant to approach Lily? Would he have been interested in her if she had not been magical?
I think he's afraid of what she'll think of him. No, I think if she wasn't magical he would not have been interested in her. I think that's the only thing that drew his interest. He wouldn't have paid her any attention if he didn't see her perform magic.

How did Hogwarts effect the friendship between Snape and Lily? We see that up until fifth year they consider themselves to be "best friends", despite the house system. Do you think they both worked to maintain the friendship?
They weren't in the same house. If they were they may have been closer and perhaps Snape wouldn't have turned to the Death Eaters. Hogwarts is where Snape meets the future Death Eaters. Without meeting them there's a good chance he wouldn't want to be a Death Eater. Part of the reason he becomes on or aims to become one is because he wants to fit in.

How would Snape's life have been different if he had managed to save their friendship?
Maybe he would have been able to move on after her death and/or marriage to James.

Snape is revealed to have been acting throughout the series out of love for Lily, how does this effect your view of his actions in the series - his "murder" of Dumbledore, his treatment of Sirius?
I don't see it like that. I see that he's "watching" Harry for Lily's sake, but he's not "acting out of his love for Lily."

How do the revelations of DH impact your view of Snape's treatment of Harry and Neville throughout the series?
Doesn't change my opinion. Loving Lily and all that doesn't make what he did to them better. He was a complete bully to Neville. What did Neville do to deserve that? He's just an innocent boy who could have been the boy who lived who had to witness in some fashion his parents getting tortured into insanity.
Harry. Snape's mean to him because he looks like his father and is the spawn of his "one true love" and worst enemy. It's not Harry's fault. Snape acts like it is, though. He acts like Harry is some great big brat. (no, that's Dudley. ;)). No amount of love for Lily changes his actions.

Do you think he wanted or needed Harry's forgiveness on some level?
He would never admit it.

What do you think about Snape's relationship with Dumbledore? Did they become friends or was Dumbledore a substitute father figure for him?
They were "friends" on some level, but Dumbledore doesn't let himself get that close to anyone and Snape is closed off himself so it makes it hard for a friendship to really form.

Do you agree with the author's take on Snape's character as revealed in interviews?
Yes. She's the author. If she said something negative about Ron I'd be unhappy, but it would be canon. Whatever she says about Snape is canon, as well.

Which elements do you think make Snape the most controversial character of the series?
What makes him controversial? He's a double-agent. We don't know everything that he does for either side. There are many ways to interpret his actions. Snape has his lovers and his haters.

What do you think are Snape's major strengths? What are his major flaws?
Strengths: smart, potions, keeping secrets
Weaknesses: doesn't let things go, keeps things bottled up, keeps to himself, doesn't bathe :p, releases anger on innocent people (like Neville)

If you had to summarize Snape's character to someone who had never read the books what would you tell them?
Complex character that can only truly be understood by reading the series.

This is my opinion.

FurryDice June 28th, 2011 6:52 pm

Re: Severus Snape: Character Analysis Reboot v.5
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Dobson (Post 5762550)
I think the only way he would have turned to the good side would have been if he had gotten his way. If he had ended up with Lily. I'm really not sure what he would have done. Maybe he would have gotten progressively more angry that she had married James rather than feeling remorse for her death later on.

Hmm - If the only reason not to become a member of the most feared group of criminals would be a romantic relationship with the woman he wanted, that wouldn't speak well of Snape at all. Where are the moral objections to "torture, murder and coercion"? If having Lily as his partner was the only reason not to become the most dangerous kind of criminal, I doubt any promise not to become a DE would last long, even if Lily had stayed in Snape's life.

MsJPotter June 28th, 2011 9:36 pm

Re: Severus Snape: Character Analysis Reboot v.5
 
[quote=Morgoth;5762494]
Let's try and allow calmer heads to prevail in this debate. See, there's no beef between them at all.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v2...redofdrama.jpg

Welcome, everyone, to the fifth instalment of the reboot thread!

A few study questions to get this thread started:
[*]Do you believe that Snape's soul was still intact after he had killed Dumbledore?
You know, I think this question can't be answered.

[*]To what extent, do you think, are Snape's parents to blame for his later choices and to what extent are they his own responsibility?

When you are past the age of consent your choices are your own. Time to step up to the mark and take responsibility.

[*]Do you think Snape would have moved on if Lily had not died? Would he have turned to the good side in that case?

Snape would have had no reason to move on if Lily had not died. I don't think he would have ever turned to the light if she had not been killed. Alive, she was always in his mind obtainable. Well that's what I think.

[*]Why do you think Snape was so reluctant to approach Lily? Would he have been interested in her if she had not been magical?

He was a kid, he wouldn't have had any idea of how to approach this little girl. The only reason I think he wanted to put himself through the trauma at such a young age was that she was magical.

[*]How did Hogwarts effect the friendship between Snape and Lily? We see that up until fifth year they consider themselves to be "best friends", despite the house system. Do you think they both worked to maintain the friendship?

I think in the beginning they both worked at it. Strange new surroundings make you cling to the familiar. They probably started drifting apart when Snape started hanging around with the kids in his house who were promoting the benefits of joining up with the Death Eaters. Lily would have known that the majority of kids in Slytherin were not wanna be Death Eaters and he had other choices. This probably drove her nuts, it would have driven me round the bend that my best friend was deliberately choosing to hang around with bigots, creepy bigots.

[*]How would Snape's life have been different if he had managed to save their friendship?

I'm sorry to say I think the friendship could not have been saved. I think Snape wanted the Death Eaters more than he wanted Lily. Actually I think he thought he could have them both.

[*]Snape is revealed to have been acting throughout the series out of love for Lily, how does this effect your view of his actions in the series - his "murder" of Dumbledore, his treatment of Sirius?

It doesn't. Being "in love" doesn't give anybody to be cruel and nasty. I don't think he 'murdered' Dumbledore.

[*]How do the revelations of DH impact your view of Snape's treatment of Harry and Neville throughout the series?

Oh I think he should have been disciplined at the least for that. I see it as child abuse and he should have been brought before a disciplinary board and fined.

[*]Do you think he wanted or needed Harry's forgiveness on some level?

I think he thought he didn't need forgiveness for anything.

[*]What do you think about Snape's relationship with Dumbledore? Did they become friends or was Dumbledore a substitute father figure for him?

I think Dumbledore was Snape's boss.

[*]Do you agree with the author's take on Snape's character as revealed in interviews?

I think if anybody know what was going trough his head it's Rowling.

[*]Which elements do you think make Snape the most controversial character of the series?

I don't think he is.
[*]What do you think are Snape's major strengths? What are his major flaws?

When the chips are down he's pretty tough. His biggest flaw is that the people around him pay for the fact he can't control his emotions when he is not practising Occulemncy. Also he's just plain nasty to ;put it mildly, IMO.

[*]If you had to summarize Snape's character to someone who had never read the books what would you tell them?

He's a strange one.

CathyWeasley June 28th, 2011 10:04 pm

Re: Severus Snape: Character Analysis Reboot v.5
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by The Mighty Morgoth
Do you think Snape would have moved on if Lily had not died? Would he have turned to the good side in that case?

Well I'm going to be pedantic here, but I do think it is an important point. :D

The 2 questions don't really make sense to me because they address 2 seperate points in the wrong order. Snape turned to the good side before Lily died - he came to Dumbledore when Lily was threatened. So asking the question:
Would Snape have turned to the good side if Lily had not been threatened?
My answer has to be no - but (there's always a but :p )I think given that Lily and James were prominent members of the order sooner or later they would have been targeted by Voldemort. I also think that given what Voldemort was like once James and Lily were targeted they were as good as dead. So the conclusion that I have to come to is that whatever the circumstances Lily would have died before Severus came to his senses.

Now to address the other issue:

Quote:

Do you think Snape would have moved on if Lily had not died?
For me this is a far more interesting question and any answer will naturally be pure speculation based on inferences drawn from the canon and in any case my humble opinion.

Assuming that Voldemort has targeted the Potters but fails to kill them because Dumbledore's protection works would Severus have ever moved on from his position of unrequited love for Lily? It seems unlikely, because until Voldemort's demise all people with the name Potter would be targets of Voldemort and his death Eaters. The job of protecting the Potters would be ongoing, and Severus would be an undercover agent working for the Order as their spy in the DE camp. To me this does not give him much scope to move on. He has to carry on pretending to be that which he once truly was, and which he must now abhor; there is no way out for Severus. As a Death Eater it is a lifetime of service to the Dark Lord or death. As someone pretending to be a Death Eater it is a lifetime of pretending to serve the Dark Lord, or getting found out and being killed. So whichever way you look at it Severus was giving the rest of his life to protecting the Potters.

So - no, I don't think he would have moved on, but I do like to speculate on what may have happened if he had *points to link to fanfiction*

horcrux4 June 29th, 2011 4:49 am

Re: Severus Snape: Character Analysis Reboot v.5
 
Questions
  1. Do you believe that Snape's soul was still intact after he had killed Dumbledore?

    Snape seemed concerned that it might not be ("And my soul, Dumbledore? Mine?") Dumbledore evidently didn't see it that way, but that Snape was helping an old man 'avoid pain and humiliation'. I'm inclined to agree with Dumbledore; after all Snape wasn't trying to murder him and would have preferred not to do it.
  2. To what extent, do you think, are Snape's parents to blame for his later choices and to what extent are they his own responsibility?

    We don't have enough information on his parents to really answer this one IMO. Even if his parents were abusive, which they may have been, that doesn't necessarily make one choose the DEs. Harry had an abusive upbringing and he was totally against the DEs.
  3. Do you think Snape would have moved on if Lily had not died? Would he have turned to the good side in that case?

    I can't see that if Lily hadn't been killed (or at least threatened) by Voldemort, there would have been any reason for Snape to turn to the good side.
  4. Why do you think Snape was so reluctant to approach Lily? Would he have been interested in her if she had not been magical?

    I shouldn't have thought so. My feeling was that in the rather run-down town they lived in he was excited to have found another wizard/witch. I think his reluctance to approach her was rather down to his social ineptitude and the fact that he didn't make friends easily, if at all.
  5. How did Hogwarts effect the friendship between Snape and Lily? We see that up until fifth year they consider themselves to be "best friends", despite the house system. Do you think they both worked to maintain the friendship?

    The chief effect Hogwarts had on their friendship was to separate them into two opposing houses. Had Snape been in Ravenclaw I think their friendship would have continued but in Slytherin he was brought under the influence of some unpleasant characters who he eventually chose over Lily. The house system made it difficult for him to do otherwise IMO.
  6. How would Snape's life have been different if he had managed to save their friendship?

    If the only way he could save their friendship was by giving up his connections with the DEs I think he'd have had a pretty miserable time at school. I'm not convinced she'd necessarily have married him rather than James, so he would still have been bitter.
  7. Snape is revealed to have been acting throughout the series out of love for Lily, how does this effect your view of his actions in the series - his "murder" of Dumbledore, his treatment of Sirius?

    I don't think his killing Dumbledore or his treatment of Sirius had much to do with love for Lily. I suppose since his love for Lily brought him to Dumbledore in the first place, then he was in a position to carry out the mercy killing. As for Sirius I think he just hated him on sight - nothing to do with Lily at all.
  8. How do the revelations of DH impact your view of Snape's treatment of Harry and Neville throughout the series?

    I continue to find those actions unacceptable. "I am making your life a misery because I loved your mother" is no excuse for a grown man. And he didn't even have that excuse for Neville.
  9. Do you think he wanted or needed Harry's forgiveness on some level?

    It's possible I suppose, but are we talking about forgiveness for being so vindictive to Harry in school or for telling Voldemort about the prophecy? I don't really think it was Harry's forgiveness he wanted on any level; it was Lily's.
  10. What do you think about Snape's relationship with Dumbledore? Did they become friends or was Dumbledore a substitute father figure for him?

    I think Dumbledore was more of a mentor figure to him. In as much as he has a friend then I suppose Dumbledore was the one.
  11. Do you agree with the author's take on Snape's character as revealed in interviews?

    I can't remember enough of them tonight to answer thisd!
  12. Which elements do you think make Snape the most controversial character of the series?

    I think it's the fact that he was an anti-hero. A bad guy who did good. His fans admire his courage, his detractors dislike his DE connections and his harshness with Harry. Both have a point.
  13. What do you think are Snape's major strengths? What are his major flaws?

    His major strengths: courage, intelligence, magical skill. Flaws: anger, vindictiveness, lack of social skills.
  14. If you had to summarize Snape's character to someone who had never read the books what would you tell them?

    A bad guy who came good in the end.

BubblyShell22 June 29th, 2011 4:05 pm

Re: Severus Snape: Character Analysis Reboot v.5
 
1. Yes because Dumbledore told him to kill him because of the curse. Snape didn't want to do it, but he did because he knew Dumbledore would die anyway. He was doing a favor to him.

2. I don't think Snape's choices later in his life have anything to do with his parents. From what we gather from OOTP, I think his parents had disagreements about certain things, but they aren't DEs. Tobias Snape is a Muggle, and Eileen Prince is a witch. If she were a DE, she wouldn't have married Tobias and thus produced Snape. His choices start when he befriends the DEs at school.

3. I don't know if Snape would've moved on. I think he would've still been bitter if Lily still married James instead of him. However, if she chose Snape over James, then things would've been different I'm sure.

4. I think he was reluctant because he was wary about making friends. I don't think he would've been interested in her if she hadn't been magical as he made it clear with Petunia that he didn't like Muggles that much.

5. I think Lily was the one who wanted to maintain the friendship the most. At first, Snape seemed to really like her until he joined up with the future DEs and then he forgot about her. She was against this and tried to get him to see sense, but he didn't listen.

6. If Snape had decided to save the friendship, I think his life would've been different. Maybe he would've married Lily instead and had the happy ending he wanted.

7. I don't know if his love for Lily was the reason for his hatred of Sirius. I think he hated Sirius because he was friends with James and made fun of him all the time. I think Snape hated James more out of love for Lily because he saw in later years how they grew close and it made him angry. His murder of Dumbledore is motivated by that love because Dumbledore tells him to help her son. I think Dumbledore knows that Snape loved Lily and felt that Snape should've sacrifced everything to help Harry win, which he did. It wasn't that he loved Harry or had any use for him, but his love for Harry's mother that spurned him to continue acting as a double agent.

8. Honestly, it doesn't change my view that Snape was horrible to them. He had no excuse for Neville, and I'm not sure if he even knew that Neville was connected to the Prophecy. He was just a bully. And as for Harry, I think he treated him unfairly all over a school grudge and the fact that Harry wasn't his son. Then again, I don't know if he'd have treated Harry any differently had he been Snape's son.

9. I don't know about this. I think he was doing the spy work and helped to save Harry's life at the end of SS to pretty much make sure he had forgiveness. I think eventually Harry did forgive him for his flaws and what was done. And maybe Snape figured he needed forgiveness after he was choked by Nagini, but he was too reluctant to really ask for it.

10. I think DD was a father figure to Snape as well as a friend. DD seemed to trust Snape immensely and was convinced he was on the good side rather than on the bad side.

11. I haven't really read any interviews, but I think that Rowling knows what she's talking about as she's the one who created Snape's character. So, yes, I agree with her.

12. His desire to hold grudges rather than to let them go and the fact that he seemed like such a complex character and we didn't know what his true motives were until the final book.

13. Strengths: Bravery, willingness to protect others, excellent Legilimens, really convincing spy. Weaknesses: Inability to let grudges go, follower of the DEs in his schooldays, and bitterness over certain things.

14. I would say that Snape is complex which makes him interesting. I'd say that Snape is not who he seems to be and that no one should judge him too harshly until the end.

zombi June 29th, 2011 5:29 pm

Re: Severus Snape: Character Analysis Reboot v.5
 
1. Do you believe that Snape's soul was still intact after he had killed Dumbledore?
Well, he did it when asked, so I'd say sure.

2. To what extent, do you think, are Snape's parents to blame for his later choices and to what extent are they his own responsibility?
I think all humans are products of their environment, but it is possible for people to overcome conditioning etc etc -- so, essentially, I think that while Snape's parents are to blame for their treatment of him, Snape himself must bear the responsibility for his own choices.

3. Do you think Snape would have moved on if Lily had not died? Would he have turned to the good side in that case?
I agree with someone else in-thread who said that the only way Snape would have turned to the good side, maybe, would be if Lily had never married James. He would have had to make sacrifices for her in order for such a relationship to work, and that is the only case I can see.

4. Why do you think Snape was so reluctant to approach Lily? Would he have been interested in her if she had not been magical?
I don't think they'd have known each other much if she wasn't magical. They obviously wouldn't have been at school together, and Snape showed interest in Lily because of her magic initially.
I think he was reluctant to approach her because he was an introverted child -- it looks like most of us agree about his being socially inept.

5. How did Hogwarts effect the friendship between Snape and Lily? We see that up until fifth year they consider themselves to be "best friends", despite the house system. Do you think they both worked to maintain the friendship?
I think the House system helped to separate them. If they'd been in the same house, I think things might have gone very differently... and if Snape had been in a house like Ravenclaw or Hufflepuff, perhaps he'd not have made such DE friends.

6. How would Snape's life have been different if he had managed to save their friendship?
Well, that depends on what he would have had to do to save their friendship, doesn't it? Maybe he would never have been a DE, maybe they'd've gotten married, who knows?

7. Snape is revealed to have been acting throughout the series out of love for Lily, how does this effect your view of his actions in the series - his "murder" of Dumbledore, his treatment of Sirius?
I don't think Snape's love for Lily excuses his actions, though it helps to make him a more ah, tragic character, perhaps? I think he hated Sirius because of the way he was treated by him & James.

8. How do the revelations of DH impact your view of Snape's treatment of Harry and Neville throughout the series?
Having to look at, essentially, Lily's eyes every day and deal with the fact that he had some hand in the death of the person he loved makes his treatment of Harry really, really interesting. Was he so hard on him because of emotional pain? Was it because he was truly a reminder of Lily's being with James? Was it because he wanted to make him stronger, for her? Who knows, but the questions are there!
His treatment of Neville, though, I think was just mean.

9. Do you think he wanted or needed Harry's forgiveness on some level?
Not really.

10. What do you think about Snape's relationship with Dumbledore? Did they become friends or was Dumbledore a substitute father figure for him?
This is tough! I think perhaps they were friends?

11. Do you agree with the author's take on Snape's character as revealed in interviews?
I've not read many interviews, period. But since Rowling created Snape, don't you think she'd know? So sure, I agree.

12. Which elements do you think make Snape the most controversial character of the series?
I think he is so controversial because he is both good and bad. He is quite awful to the main character, from whose viewpoint the story is told -- but he also is clearly portrayed as a human with feelings, and I think it's hard to write someone off totally when faced with their humanity.

13. What do you think are Snape's major strengths? What are his major flaws?
He is clearly intelligent, cunning, brave, and very skilled.
He is also clearly socially inept, vindictive, short-tempered, and prejudiced.

14. If you had to summarize Snape's character to someone who had never read the books what would you tell them?
Just read the books!

ignisia June 29th, 2011 10:53 pm

Re: Severus Snape: Character Analysis Reboot v.5
 
Revisiting a couple questions. :D

Quote:

How did Hogwarts effect the friendship between Snape and Lily? We see that up until fifth year they consider themselves to be "best friends", despite the house system. Do you think they both worked to maintain the friendship?
Interesting point about them keeping it up in spite of the House system. We know Lily's friends had complaints, and I can't see Severus' being very happy about him hanging out with a Mudblood. I tend to believe he played something of a juggling game between the two opposing friendships, wanting to remain with Lily for sentimental reasons and with Mulciber and co. for security/social reasons without entirely realizing how mutually exclusive the friendships really were.

Quote:

What do you think about Snape's relationship with Dumbledore? Did they become friends or was Dumbledore a substitute father figure for him?
I find it rather interesting how often Severus will emote in from of DD, whether it's his love for Lily, his ranting about Harry, his suspicion of Lupin, concern for DD, etc. It makes me believe that either Snape felt he had nothing more to lose after promising to do "Anything" on the hilltop, or he trusted DD.

TheChosenOne14 June 29th, 2011 11:41 pm

Re: Severus Snape: Character Analysis Reboot v.5
 
Quote:

Do you believe that Snape's soul was still intact after he had killed Dumbledore?
Yes, because he didn't truly [i]murder[i] Dumbledore. It was basically an order from Dumbledore that he had to do that. I don't think Snape didn't want to kill Dumbledore.
Quote:

Do you think Snape would have moved on if Lily had not died? Would he have turned to the good side in that case?
I don't think there would have been any way for Snape to move on if Lily hadn't died. I definately don't think he would have turned to the good side if Lily survived. I mean, the only reason he went to the good side was that Lily's life was threatened. He went to the good side only because his love was threatened and de he was with wanted her killed. If Lily had lived, why would he have ever even thought about going to the good side? If Lily was threatened by the de but still lived, I think he still would have gone to the good side because the people he had trusted had gone against what he thought.

Just my Thoughts :)

horcrux4 June 30th, 2011 3:22 pm

Re: Severus Snape: Character Analysis Reboot v.5
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by ignisia (Post 5763744)
Interesting point about them keeping it up in spite of the House system. We know Lily's friends had complaints, and I can't see Severus' being very happy about him hanging out with a Mudblood. I tend to believe he played something of a juggling game between the two opposing friendships, wanting to remain with Lily for sentimental reasons and with Mulciber and co. for security/social reasons without entirely realizing how mutually exclusive the friendships really were.

Yes, I think the house system had a lot to do with their friendship breaking down. Although friendships do occur between people of different houses (ref. Luna and the Trio) students spent so much time in their own houses, not only in lessons but socially in their common rooms, that they got little chance to get to know people from other houses well. Severus and Lily would have had to make time to meet around the school which wouldn't have been that often.

I wonder whether, if Slytherin and Gryffindor had Potions together in those days, Snape and Lily took the opportunity to sit together? Their friendship seemed well-known to the other Gryffindors but I can't recall anything that says the other Slytherins knew much about it. I think it must have taken a lot of effort on Snape's part to maintain the relationship, given what his Slytherin friends thought about Muggle-borns.

Quote:

I find it rather interesting how often Severus will emote in from of DD, whether it's his love for Lily, his ranting about Harry, his suspicion of Lupin, concern for DD, etc. It makes me believe that either Snape felt he had nothing more to lose after promising to do "Anything" on the hilltop, or he trusted DD.
I think both. My take on it was that he felt Dumbledore already knew everything there was to know about him, so there was nothing he needed to hide. It must have been some relief to him to have someone he could be open with and let his feelings out.

ignisia June 30th, 2011 3:35 pm

Re: Severus Snape: Character Analysis Reboot v.5
 
Quote:

I wonder whether, if Slytherin and Gryffindor had Potions together in those days, Snape and Lily took the opportunity to sit together? Their friendship seemed well-known to the other Gryffindors but I can't recall anything that says the other Slytherins knew much about it. I think it must have taken a lot of effort on Snape's part to maintain the relationship, given what his Slytherin friends thought about Muggle-borns.
In TPT, their argument over the Werewolf Incident takes place in the courtyard, most likely during the day. They would have been seen together there, as well as, I'm sure, in other places before they were able to realize just how divided the school could get over House loyalty. So I tend to think the friendship was known, but simply not memorable on the part of anyone who could have told Harry later on (convenient for Jo). :lol:

Not sure about potions. We know Slughorn goes on and on about Lily and also mentions Severus' skills in the subject during the Christmas party. This might be a deliberate connection made for us to delve into-- a hint, so to speak, toward the friendship that was revealed in the next book. Maybe there was possible collaboration between the two friends?

MsJPotter June 30th, 2011 3:58 pm

Re: Severus Snape: Character Analysis Reboot v.5
 
[quote]
Quote:

Originally Posted by horcrux4 (Post 5764046)
Yes, I think the house system had a lot to do with their friendship breaking down. Although friendships do occur between people of different houses (ref. Luna and the Trio) students spent so much time in their own houses, not only in lessons but socially in their common rooms, that they got little chance to get to know people from other houses well. Severus and Lily would have had to make time to meet around the school which wouldn't have been that often.

We can't say this was the scenario for Snape and Lily. Luna made friends outside of her house and Harry courted Cho, kind of. Percy had a girlfriend from Ravenclaw, so we see that friendships were made, kept and lasted. Students didn't get locked up in their Common Rooms any more than Muggle students are locked up in their homes

Quote:

I wonder whether, if Slytherin and Gryffindor had Potions together in those days, Snape and Lily took the opportunity to sit together? Their friendship seemed well-known to the other Gryffindors but I can't recall anything that says the other Slytherins knew much about it. I think it must have taken a lot of effort on Snape's part to maintain the relationship, given what his Slytherin friends thought about Muggle-borns
.

As Lily's friendship with SNape was known to her Gryffindor girlfriends I think it's kind of plain that it wasn't a secret. Maybe Snape didn't mention it to the other two kids in Slytherin who wanted to be Death Eaters, who knows what he mentiond to Slytherins who were not that bothered who he was friends with.

Quote:

I think both. My take on it was that he felt Dumbledore already knew everything there was to know about him, so there was nothing he needed to hide. It must have been some relief to him to have someone he could be open with and let his feelings out.
We all need someone that we can be ourselves with.

LilyDreamsOn June 30th, 2011 5:42 pm

Re: Severus Snape: Character Analysis Reboot v.5
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Morgoth (Post 5762494)
Do you believe that Snape's soul was still intact after he had killed Dumbledore?

Yes, as he was doing a humane act in ending his life in a painless way. I'm a big supporter of assisted suicide. I know it can be rough on those who help end a life but it's very... noble, and selfless. I've got to say that this is the act that I most respect Snape for.

Quote:

To what extent, do you think, are Snape's parents to blame for his later choices and to what extent are they his own responsibility?
I don't lay any blame on the parents for Snape's actions. They have their own blame for what they did to him. But Snape was responsible for his own choices, as is everyone else. There are a lot of parallels between Harry and Snape as children, but they turned out to be very different people because of the choices they made.

Quote:

Do you think Snape would have moved on if Lily had not died? Would he have turned to the good side in that case?
If she had not been targeted, I doubt he would have switched over. I'm a bit surprised he didn't switch over sooner though, considering Lily thrice defied Voldemort... which means she would have been in mortal danger at least three times, and I'm sure Snape would have heard about this?

Quote:

Why do you think Snape was so reluctant to approach Lily? Would he have been interested in her if she had not been magical?
I doubt he would have if she were a Muggle. He was noticeably prejudiced against Petunia.

Quote:

How did Hogwarts effect the friendship between Snape and Lily? We see that up until fifth year they consider themselves to be "best friends", despite the house system. Do you think they both worked to maintain the friendship?
I don't think they were actually best friends up to that point, I think it was a title they kept out of nostalgia. I think the friendship had been falling apart since their first year. I imagine they both tried, to some extent, to make it work, but there's only so much you can from such opposite camps.

Quote:

How do the revelations of DH impact your view of Snape's treatment of Harry and Neville throughout the series?
It didn't change anything. It certainly explained a few things, but it didn't excuse him. I don't think there's any defending the way he bullied his students.

Quote:

What do you think about Snape's relationship with Dumbledore? Did they become friends or was Dumbledore a substitute father figure for him?
I think they were close friends and allies. I'd wager Dumbledore is the only person apart from Lily that Snape ever really cared for. He seemed to be pretty good friends with Lucius Malfoy but I'm not sure how strong that bond was during the second war.

Quote:

Which elements do you think make Snape the most controversial character of the series?
He's a mixed bag. He did great deeds in the war but was bitter and he bullied his students. Some people forgive him, others don't. It's very divisive, and hard to balance out, to be honest.


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