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Hes October 5th, 2007 11:42 am

Re: Dolores Jane Umbridge: Character Analysis
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by purplehawk (Post 4783687)
Man, I wish Jo had told us what happened to her. I keep telling myself she died from hitting her head after Harry stunned her. That would have been really nice. I will be most displeased if she's still working at the Ministry when Jo writes that encyclopedia.

JKR has told us what happened to Umbridge in an online web chat. She was arrested, interrogated and imprisoned for crimes against Muggleborns.

purplehawk October 5th, 2007 3:53 pm

Re: Dolores Jane Umbridge: Character Analysis
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Hes (Post 4800695)
JKR has told us what happened to Umbridge in an online web chat. She was arrested, interrogated and imprisoned for crimes against Muggleborns.

Wow! :wow: That is spectacularly great news. Do you have a link to the interview or chat, or whatever it was?

Hes October 5th, 2007 3:57 pm

Re: Dolores Jane Umbridge: Character Analysis
 
Sure! Here it is: J.K. Rowling Web Chat Transcript

purplehawk October 6th, 2007 1:58 am

Re: Dolores Jane Umbridge: Character Analysis
 
Thanks, Hes!

thehollow October 6th, 2007 2:03 am

Re: Dolores Jane Umbridge: Character Analysis
 
I did not know that JK Rowling had talked about what happened to Umbridge.. I've been wondering about that. Wow, it's good to know justice was served for what she did.

IntricateLogic October 12th, 2007 3:09 am

Re: Dolores Jane Umbridge: Character Analysis
 
Wow, cool. I didn't know that anyone knew what happened to Umbridge.

Drusilla October 12th, 2007 3:01 pm

Re: Dolores Jane Umbridge: Character Analysis
 
Now that we know what happened to Umbridge, can we get back to analysing her character, please? Keeping the Character Bashing/Shades of Grey rules in mind, of course (just a reminder to everyone).

purplehawk October 12th, 2007 3:56 pm

Re: Dolores Jane Umbridge: Character Analysis
 
Okay, Dru. Here's a question for the ages:

How do you suppose Umbridge handled being tried and convicted of crimes against muggleborns?

Hes October 12th, 2007 4:00 pm

Re: Dolores Jane Umbridge: Character Analysis
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by purplehawk (Post 4809628)
How do you suppose Umbridge handled being tried and convicted of crimes against muggleborns?

I doubt she took it well, I don't think she would have recognized the court that tried her or accepted the sentence. She always appeared to me to be convinced of her own right. Her character doesn't allow for other people to tell her what to do, this was clearly shown in OotP in her relationship with Dumbledore and anyone who defied her.

Drusilla October 12th, 2007 4:07 pm

Re: Dolores Jane Umbridge: Character Analysis
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by purplehawk (Post 4809628)
Okay, Dru. Here's a question for the ages:

How do you suppose Umbridge handled being tried and convicted of crimes against muggleborns?

Good question...about as well as she handled being carried off by the centaurs, I should imagine. Now that's a classic scene.
I just completed a course that included information on international criminal tribunals, so I imagine that she at first attempted to deny that what she'd done was a crime, or to take the excuse that she was acting on superior orders- it wouldn't wash with Kingsley or whoever headed the Department of Magical Law Enforcement, of course, but I can see her attempting to talk her way out of it.

purplehawk October 12th, 2007 4:15 pm

Re: Dolores Jane Umbridge: Character Analysis
 
I don't think so, either, Hes. I just remembered her threatening a muggleborn with the dementor's kiss if he continued to resist his sentence. That's a new take on "my way or the highway," eh? More like "my way or oblivion."

The very idea of Umbridge being arrested and marched out of her pinky fluffy office - and then standing trial before the Wizengamot - well, it just brings a huge smile to my face. The old bat should have gone to jail after OotP!

I have a hunch Umbridge would recognize the things she was charged and convicted of doing, but also that she wouldn't have accepted them as wrong.

What kind of defense could she have possibly used?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Drusilla (Post 4809637)
Good question...about as well as she handled being carried off by the centaurs, I should imagine. Now that's a classic scene.
I just completed a course that included information on international criminal tribunals, so I imagine that she at first attempted to deny that what she'd done was a crime, or to take the excuse that she was acting on superior orders- it wouldn't wash with Kingsley or whoever headed the Department of Magical Law Enforcement, of course, but I can see her attempting to talk her way out of it.

I missed your post while posting myself. Kingsley did become Minister of Magic - the book said temporary, but Jo's interview indicates he got the job fulltime. I can't imagine any argument she could have used that would sway him.

purplehawk October 21st, 2007 4:15 am

Re: Dolores Jane Umbridge: Character Analysis
 
In re-reading DH, I noticed a "broad, hunched woman with pointed teeth" cackling at the Malfoy's dining table as Voldemort was explaining his fury with Charity Burbage.

Does anyone think this woman might be Umbridge?

Hes October 21st, 2007 11:31 am

Re: Dolores Jane Umbridge: Character Analysis
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by purplehawk (Post 4819058)
In re-reading DH, I noticed a "broad, hunched woman with pointed teeth" cackling at the Malfoy's dining table as Voldemort was explaining his fury with Charity Burbage.

Does anyone think this woman might be Umbridge?

Umbridge wasn't a death eater, thus there can be no way that she would be permitted to be at such a secret meeting, which is attended by Voldemort himself. Umbridge worked for the Ministry and when the Ministry was taken over, she supported the policy against muggleborns, but in my view she wasn't one of the incrowd.

FurryDice January 1st, 2008 8:31 pm

Re: Dolores Jane Umbridge: Character Analysis
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by hermy_weasley2 (Post 4629913)
Welcome to the post-DH discussion of Umbridge. Previous discussion without spoilers can be found here: Dolores Jane Umbridge: Character Analysis


1) Jo herself describes Umbridge as evil. How does Dolores rate against the series villain, Lord Voldemort? When Harry was told the world wasn't divided between good people and Death Eaters, did that rule her out as a DE? Do you think her actions support Voldemort even if she isn't a DE?

2) Umbridge did her share of driving the plot in OotP, the trio would never have formed Dumbledore's Army without her influence, for instance. Did her tenure at Hogwarts--as DADA professor, High Inquisitor and Headmistress--produce other effects favorable to Harry and company? How do you feel about the handling of her "duties"?

3) How is it that Dolores is still employed at the Ministry? Is she still 'loyal' to Fudge or has her loyalty shifted to Minister Scrimgeour? Is she Scrimgeour's Senior Undersecretary or does she now have another title/job?

4) How did Umbridge come across the horcrux locket? How come it didn't have the same impact on her when she was wearing it as it did on the trio? Did she realise what the locket really was?

1. Yes, that ruled her out for me as being an official Dark Mark wearing Death Eater, I think it was important to see that evil comes in different forms and that not all evil people are members of the same club, to put it bluntly. Her actions definitely still supported Voldemort though, unknowingly in Order when she suppressed claims of his return and tried to crush Order members at Hogwarts and Dumbledores' Army. She helped him knowingly though in Deathly Hallows when she cheerily sent Muggleborns to Azkaban, propping up his system and following his agenda.

2. I reckon the only positive effect of her tenure was that it stirred up the spirit of rebellion in the students and prepared them magically (Dumbledore's Army) and mentally to start and maintain a resistance at Hogwarts during the tenure of the Carrows and the presumed traitor Snape.

3. I cannot think why she is still at the Ministry after her behaviour in Order, unless of course, she downplayed it to Scrimgeour, who would have been disgruntled anyway with Dumbledore and Harry from an early stage and all too happy to maintain the status quo by keeping Umbridge in the employ of the Ministry and accept her word on things. Plus, as a bureaucracy, the ministry would want to protect its own Senior members. If Dolores was disappointed about Fudges' dismissal, she seems to have gotten over it quickly enough and seems happy enough to work for Scrimgeour as Minister.

4. I doubt she ever knew what it really was, she wouldn't have been so keen to flaunt it if she did, word could get back to Voldemort. Also, I get the impression that very few witches and wizards ever knew about Horcruxes, somehow doubt that Umbridge would be among them. She was probably so malevolent already that a malevolent object like that was well suited to her temperament and had no affect on her, she could still conjure a Patronus while wearing it.


In a way, with her fondness for cruelty, Umbridge reminds me of Bellatrix, with some differences, she is concerned with how she appears to others, (all the pink, the fake sweetness, girly voice) and this is probably one of the reasons she doesn't take her cruelty to others to the extremes Bellatrix does.

FleurduJardin January 3rd, 2008 7:49 pm

Re: Dolores Jane Umbridge: Character Analysis
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by hermy_weasley2 (Post 4629913)
1) Jo herself describes Umbridge as evil. How does Dolores rate against the series villain, Lord Voldemort? When Harry was told the world wasn't divided between good people and Death Eaters, did that rule her out as a DE? Do you think her actions support Voldemort even if she isn't a DE?

2) Umbridge did her share of driving the plot in OotP, the trio would never have formed Dumbledore's Army without her influence, for instance. Did her tenure at Hogwarts--as DADA professor, High Inquisitor and Headmistress--produce other effects favorable to Harry and company? How do you feel about the handling of her "duties"?

3) How is it that Dolores is still employed at the Ministry? Is she still 'loyal' to Fudge or has her loyalty shifted to Minister Scrimgeour? Is she Scrimgeour's Senior Undersecretary or does she now have another title/job?

4) How did Umbridge come across the horcrux locket? How come it didn't have the same impact on her when she was wearing it as it did on the trio? Did she realise what the locket really was?

I'm joining the discussion a bit late in the game here, so if I repeat some things said before, my apologies. I haven't read much past the starting post.

1) Yes, though she wasn't a DE (I wonder why? She was evil enough), her actions definitely helped Voldemort. She was following Fudge's head-in-the-sand and paranoid policy of denying Voldemort's return and thwarting Dumbledore's efforts to prepare the Wizarding community from the upcoming war.

There's no doubt in my mind that she was in Slytherin when she was a student. (I don't know whether it's been discussed before, what House she was in.)

2) The way she handled her duties can be summed up in one word: "incompetence". Oh, and let me add "abuse of power". :grumble:

3) There was no valid ground to fire her. My guess is that Scrimgeour was maybe hoping she'd resign but she wouldn't relinquish any power she had so easily. Though she did some illegal things when at Hogwarts (and before), there was no solid proof. There's only the students' word that she admitted to sending the Dementors, and that she tried to use the Cruciatus Curse on Harry. But the punishment with the magic quill was tantamount to torture. I wonder why that didn't come up (apparently neither McGonagall nor Dumbledore ever knew about it, they'd have gone ballistic if they had) but Scrimgeour knew (Harry showed him the scars on his hand, I think) yet did nothing, which is a bit strange. :hmm:

I don't think she stayed senior Under-Secretary, however. But then, Scrimgeour's tenure wasn't all that long, and once Thicknesse took over, she regained a lot of power as Head of the Registration of Muggleborns Dpt.

4) She "confiscated" the locket from Mundingus Fletcher. I'm sure she didn't know what it was. She may not even have known about Horcruxes in general (she doesn't strike me as having been a particularly bright student). I think it didn't seem to affect her because she was already so evil. It may have made her even crueller to Muggleborns but it'd be difficult to see the degree of difference between Umbridge-without-the-Horcrux and Umbridge-with-the-Horcrux.

All the above is of course my personal opinion only. :)

Quote:

Originally Posted by FurryDice
2. I reckon the only positive effect of her tenure was that it stirred up the spirit of rebellion in the students and prepared them magically (Dumbledore's Army) and mentally to start and maintain a resistance at Hogwarts during the tenure of the Carrows and the presumed traitor Snape.
[...]
4. I doubt she ever knew what it really was, she wouldn't have been so keen to flaunt it if she did, word could get back to Voldemort. Also, I get the impression that very few witches and wizards ever knew about Horcruxes, somehow doubt that Umbridge would be among them. She was probably so malevolent already that a malevolent object like that was well suited to her temperament and had no affect on her, she could still conjure a Patronus while wearing it.

I totally agree with #2 by FurryDice.

As to #4, we made the same point in different words.
Of course she didn't know what it was, she thought the "S" stood for Selwyn when it actually stood for Slytherin. :shrug:

5t0rm January 3rd, 2008 8:22 pm

Re: Dolores Jane Umbridge: Character Analysis
 
I think we all love to hate Dolores really. She's hateable in the sense that she's not on Harry's side; she's evil, but it turns into a kind of triangle, with her and Fudge on one point, Harry and his loyal gang of DA and Phoenix, and Lord Voldemort on the third.
She never supported Lord Voldemort, but she never really fought him either which makes her -definitely- evil.

The_Green_Woods January 11th, 2008 3:01 pm

Re: Dolores Jane Umbridge: Character Analysis
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by hermy_weasley2 (Post 4629913)
Welcome to the post-DH discussion of Umbridge. Previous discussion without spoilers can be found here: Dolores Jane Umbridge: Character Analysis


1) Jo herself describes Umbridge as evil. How does Dolores rate against the series villain, Lord Voldemort? When Harry was told the world wasn't divided between good people and Death Eaters, did that rule her out as a DE? Do you think her actions support Voldemort even if she isn't a DE?

2) Umbridge did her share of driving the plot in OotP, the trio would never have formed Dumbledore's Army without her influence, for instance. Did her tenure at Hogwarts--as DADA professor, High Inquisitor and Headmistress--produce other effects favorable to Harry and company? How do you feel about the handling of her "duties"?

3) How is it that Dolores is still employed at the Ministry? Is she still 'loyal' to Fudge or has her loyalty shifted to Minister Scrimgeour? Is she Scrimgeour's Senior Undersecretary or does she now have another title/job?

4) How did Umbridge come across the horcrux locket? How come it didn't have the same impact on her when she was wearing it as it did on the trio? Did she realise what the locket really was?

1. I think she's worse in a way than Voldemort. Voldemort was a known evil entity. He was openly killing, torturing and doing all kinds of evil things. Umbridge was not averse to killing; Harry would have been worse than dead had the dementors got to him and even afterwards, she tried to get him Azkaban and put an end to him; an almost crucio, blood quills, the works actually.

I feel a known evil like Voldemort is so much better than an unknown evil that disguises itself as a part of the Light and against the dark forces, but in reality could and did harm more.

2. Poorly and I don't think the DA was only because of her. If it had not been her, then it would have been another nut, and I'm sure Hermione would have suggested the DA, to prepare for their owls and also for the war after the DE were broken out of Azkaban.

3. That shows the level of corruption in the Ministry.

4. She was in all probability nastier than the locket IMO.

Uzuri February 29th, 2008 6:11 pm

Re: Dolores Jane Umbridge: Character Analysis
 
Chugging through book 5 again and I just had to visit this thread.

I noticed a lot of people who say she feels more evil that Voldemort but that can't really say why.

I <em>know</em> why.

Umbridge seems far more evil because she's far more real. You're never going to run into a Voldemort in real life, but chances are you'll run into an Umbridge. My sister had an Umbridge for a teacher. I've seen them in office environments (though thankfully have never worked with one). And the government is full of them.

So while it's unlikely that you'll ever cross paths with someone who methodically attempts to murder infants, the trouble that a living Umbridge can get you in is far more tangeable -- hence the inclination to call her more evil.

Hes March 4th, 2008 1:35 pm

Re: Dolores Jane Umbridge: Character Analysis
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Uzuri (Post 4942870)
Umbridge seems far more evil because she's far more real. You're never going to run into a Voldemort in real life, but chances are you'll run into an Umbridge. My sister had an Umbridge for a teacher. I've seen them in office environments (though thankfully have never worked with one). And the government is full of them.

So while it's unlikely that you'll ever cross paths with someone who methodically attempts to murder infants, the trouble that a living Umbridge can get you in is far more tangeable -- hence the inclination to call her more evil.

Good point!

Umbridge is more human than Voldemort could ever have been. I don't know if JKR has based her on someone (even just slightly) or that she is a total made up character but I agree that she could very well be (like) someone who you can meet in the street.

leah49 March 22nd, 2008 2:27 am

Re: Dolores Jane Umbridge: Character Analysis
 
Umbridge is bad. All she cares about really is her position in the Ministry. She’ll blindly follow the current Minister. He says Voldemort’s not back then she believes Voldemort’s not back. He says the sky is orange the sky’s orange. He says Muggle-borns are bad, Muggle-borns are bad. She’s not a Death Eater because the Minister of Magic is not a Death Eater. If the Minister of Magic was I’m sure she’d try her best to become one.
I think what’s worse for Umbridge is not being able to work at the Ministry anymore rather than being in Azkaban. That right there will make her go insane.


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