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-   -   Gender: Roles, Stereotypes, Discrimination Version 2 (http://www.cosforums.com/showthread.php?t=123695)

Morgoth January 19th, 2010 7:17 pm

Gender: Roles, Stereotypes, Discrimination Version 2
 
Version 2. Version 1 can be found here.

The usual rules apply to this thread. As the behaviour has been generally quite good in this thread lately, we're not going to drift away from the pattern you're into discussing. However, the original questions are there if you wish to revise/expand upon and as always, new participants may wish to discuss.

1) Do you believe that men and women are inherently "different" on more than a biological level?

2) Do you believe that gendering is a matter of nature or nurture? A combination of both?

3) Have you ever felt discriminated against or judged based on your gender?

4) Do you feel that your gender is misunderstood by the opposite gender? Have you experienced an "Us/Them" scenario with regard to gender in your relationships with other people?

5) Are there any fundamental questions you would like to ask of members of the opposite sex? (For obvious reasons, questions must be PG-13). Any misconceptions you would like to clear up that you feel are generally accepted about your gender?

6) Have you ever felt limited by gender roles or ostricized by other members of your own gender for failing to live up to stereotypes and expectations surrounding your gender?



Last few posts from old version:

#1505
Siriusandme's post:    


  
I've met plenty of women who think that if a woman doesn't leave an abusive relationship it's her own fault if she gets beaten. Silly people....
  



#1506
ActingDude17's post:    


  
Quote:

Originally Posted by Siriusandme (Post 5483806)
I've met plenty of women who think that if a woman doesn't leave an abusive relationship it's her own fault if she gets beaten. :no: Silly people....

It's not 100% her fault but she can definitely be held accountable for not getting the heck out of there.
  



#1507
Siriusandme's post:    


  
Quote:

Originally Posted by ActingDude17 (Post 5483992)
It's not 100% her fault but she can definitely be held accountable for not getting the heck out of there.

Yes and no... Relationships like that don't start out by beating someone half to death. They start by, psychologicaly, breaking someone down. By making them feel like they are less than nothing, so I can imagine it's extremely hard to leave to pack your bags and leave. Especially when there are children involved. Besides I can't imagine there even a single woman who askes to be beaten.
  



#1508
DancingMaenid's post:    


  
Quote:

Originally Posted by Siriusandme (Post 5483997)
Yes and no... Relationships like that don't start out by beating someone half to death. They start by, psychologicaly, breaking someone down. By making them feel like they are less than nothing, so I can imagine it's extremely hard to leave to pack your bags and leave. Especially when there are children involved. Besides I can't imagine there even a single woman who askes to be beaten.

Exactly. Not only that, but the early signs of abuse can be hard to interpret. For example, if your boyfriend likes to call you all the time, it can be hard to know if that's a sign of possessive behavior or not. If he seems like a great guy in other respects, you may not pay much heed to the warning signs until they're a major problem.

And I don't think anyone can ever be blamed for abuse they receive. If you stick your hand in a beehive and get stung, then yeah, you hold some of the responsibility because bees will sting. When it comes to humans, we expect people to be responsible for their own actions. A woman has a responsibility to herself to take care of herself and make good decisions, but she can't be responsible for someone else's choice to hurt her.
  



#1509
Yoana's post:    


  
Moreover, dependency on the abuser often accompanies abuse - whether financial or emotional. Some women can't get away because there's no-one to turn to for help, precisely because in many societies, most people will blame them.
  



#1510
Voldemorts8thHorcrux's post:    


  
I definitely see that a lot (people finding other people's "home selves" unbelievable). My friends find it hard to believe stuff like how my mom can even yell at me or something simple like that because she appears harmless and nice. My parents friends dont seem to believe that I'm a teenager that argues with my parents and I know that my grandparents think that my dad is the most amazing husband/father ever and ignore all of his faults which in a way can be considered overly possessive. Besides, I doubt many people can honestly say that they're really being themselves in all situations in front of all people
  


CowsRSkary January 19th, 2010 7:30 pm

Re: Gender: Roles, Stereotypes, Discrimination Version 2
 
V8 has a good point. I never act "girly" but I am always much more "feminine" when I'm around people I don't know.

FurryDice January 20th, 2010 2:09 am

Re: Gender: Roles, Stereotypes, Discrimination Version 2
 
Quote:

And I don't think anyone can ever be blamed for abuse they receive. If you stick your hand in a beehive and get stung, then yeah, you hold some of the responsibility because bees will sting. When it comes to humans, we expect people to be responsible for their own actions. A woman has a responsibility to herself to take care of herself and make good decisions, but she can't be responsible for someone else's choice to hurt her.

Quote:

Moreover, dependency on the abuser often accompanies abuse - whether financial or emotional. Some women can't get away because there's no-one to turn to for help, precisely because in many societies, most people will blame them.
I agree, people are responsible for their own choices, yet many people seem unable or unwilling to accept that. A few pages back on the previous version, someone commented that with rape cases, maybe people, especially women blame the victim because they want to reassure themselves with the thinking "if she was at least partially at fault, it can't happen to me if I don't do what she did". I think maybe the same thinking is sometimes applied to domestic violence.

Also, V8 makes a good point - people's home personas and outside personas can be totally different. This difference can mean that people don't want to believe that a popular guy, (or woman, as females can be perpetrators also) who gets involved in the community, has lots of friends and has no criminal record can possibly be capable of domestic violence. Or, if they do believe it, they think the victim "had to have done something wrong to provoke such a lovely person."

Siriusandme January 20th, 2010 7:38 pm

Re: Gender: Roles, Stereotypes, Discrimination Version 2
 
1) Do you believe that men and women are inherently "different" on more than a biological level?

Yes, I also believe men and women are different on a psychological level.

2) Do you believe that gendering is a matter of nature or nurture? A combination of both?

I believe it's a combination of both. There are plenty of girls who don't like playing with dolls or playing dress-up and there are plenty of boys who do. And if a child doesn't like playing with dolls or cars you can buy as many as you want, they won't play with them. About a year ago a saw an episode of The View where Sherry Shepherd (???) said that her then 2yr old son decided to play dress-up at his nursery school and put on a princess dress. She then got angry with the teachers there for her son wearing a dress. Dresses are for girls, period!!!

3) Have you ever felt discriminated against or judged based on your gender?

No, but I'm not sure if I've ever been in a situation where I could have been discriminated against. And maybe it did happen and I just never noticed, I'm not the most observant person...:p

4) Do you feel that your gender is misunderstood by the opposite gender? Have you experienced an "Us/Them" scenario with regard to gender in your relationships with other people?

Yes, but more in a, what seemed like a typical male reaction, to an event. About a year ago there was an artical in the newspaper about a woman who had inherited her mothers wedding ring and because she couldn't wear it (wrong size) she went to a jeweller to have it turned into a necklace. A few weeks after she received the necklace, she passed the jeweller and saw her mothers wedding ring. It turned out the man had used different gold for the necklace and decided to sell the ring. My father thought this was perfectly logical and when I said the ring held an emotional value he said that if that were the case the woman never should have taken the ring to the jewellers in the first place. He didn't get my view that the emotional value was in the fact that this ring belonged to the mother and that it had nothing to do with it's shape.

5) Are there any fundamental questions you would like to ask of members of the opposite sex? (For obvious reasons, questions must be PG-13). Any misconceptions you would like to clear up that you feel are generally accepted about your gender?

Not really no, at least, I can't think of any....

6) Have you ever felt limited by gender roles or ostricized by other members of your own gender for failing to live up to stereotypes and expectations surrounding your gender?

Yes, but I'm not sure if they are linked to my gender or more general expectations of how people of a certain age should behave.

Pox Voldius January 21st, 2010 12:27 am

Re: Gender: Roles, Stereotypes, Discrimination Version 2
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Siriusandme (Post 5485487)
Yes, but more in a, what seemed like a typical male reaction, to an event. About a year ago there was an artical in the newspaper about a woman who had inherited her mothers wedding ring and because she couldn't wear it (wrong size) she went to a jeweller to have it turned into a necklace. A few weeks after she received the necklace, she passed the jeweller and saw her mothers wedding ring. It turned out the man had used different gold for the necklace and decided to sell the ring. My father thought this was perfectly logical and when I said the ring held an emotional value he said that if that were the case the woman never should have taken the ring to the jewellers in the first place. He didn't get my view that the emotional value was in the fact that this ring belonged to the mother and that it had nothing to do with it's shape.

Did she sue the jeweller? or at least make him return the ring?

MC2456 January 21st, 2010 5:11 am

Re: Gender: Roles, Stereotypes, Discrimination Version 2
 
1) Do you believe that men and women are inherently "different" on more than a biological level?

Men and women are from different planets, as it seem. They're not only different on biological levels, but most of the time, emotional and mental levels as well.

2) Do you believe that gendering is a matter of nature or nurture? A combination of both?

Both. Traditionally, girls play with dolls, while guys rough-house, and play things like Poke'mon and cars and such. However, there are exceptions to the rules. (I.E me.) I think I had more fun rough-housing with my guy friends (I was seven, okay!), playing Poke'mon cards and setting up cars and trains than playing with dolls.

3) Have you ever felt discriminated against or judged based on your gender?

Not yet, no.

4) Do you feel that your gender is misunderstood by the opposite gender? Have you experienced an "Us/Them" scenario with regard to gender in your relationships with other people?

I'm not particularly sure.

5) Are there any fundamental questions you would like to ask of members of the opposite sex? (For obvious reasons, questions must be PG-13). Any misconceptions you would like to clear up that you feel are generally accepted about your gender?

Can't think of any.

6) Have you ever felt limited by gender roles or ostricized by other members of your own gender for failing to live up to stereotypes and expectations surrounding your gender?

I'm a total tomboy, and I'm 16! (Well, 17 this year.) But no, I have not been ostricised because I'm a tomboy.

Siriusandme January 21st, 2010 5:43 am

Re: Gender: Roles, Stereotypes, Discrimination Version 2
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Pox Voldius (Post 5485596)
Did she sue the jeweller? or at least make him return the ring?

As far as I know she went inside to get the ring back wich he refused so she sued him. That is also why it ended up in the newspaper.

canismajoris January 21st, 2010 12:42 pm

Re: Gender: Roles, Stereotypes, Discrimination Version 2
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Siriusandme (Post 5485715)
As far as I know she went inside to get the ring back wich he refused so she sued him. That is also why it ended up in the newspaper.

I don't understand yet how this is a matter of gender discrimination.

Siriusandme January 21st, 2010 3:46 pm

Re: Gender: Roles, Stereotypes, Discrimination Version 2
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by canismajoris (Post 5485816)
I don't understand yet how this is a matter of gender discrimination.

apparently you didn't read my earlier post. This
Quote:

Do you feel that your gender is misunderstood by the opposite gender? Have you experienced an "Us/Them" scenario with regard to gender in your relationships with other people?
was the question and my answer was more about the discussion between my father, my mother and myself and how I perceived his reaction as typically male and he saw my reaction as typically female. It had nothing to do with gender discrimination.

NightWhisper7 January 21st, 2010 7:55 pm

Re: Gender: Roles, Stereotypes, Discrimination Version 2
 
1) Do you believe that men and women are inherently "different" on more than a biological level?

Not really. I think humans are more alike than we are different. I believe that hormones probably do have somewhat of an effect on some things, such as how strongly men and women feel emotion, but the ways in which we express emotion are probably socialized in us from birth. I mean, think about how gendered toys are for children. Gendering is a deeply-ingrained process unique to different human cultures, and not even parents can control how much of these gendered messages kids get from the rest of the world. I don't believe that all people are exactly the same, nor do I believe men and women are truly "opposite."

2) Do you believe that gendering is a matter of nature or nurture? A combination of both?

Like I said in the previous answer, I think hormones and biology accounts for a small amount of differences, but socialization is probably much more of a contributing factor. Socialization is an extremely potent subconscious force, and in our individualistic society, it can be difficult to understand just how much of what we do and feel is not entirely up to our conscious control.

3) Have you ever felt discriminated against or judged based on your gender?

Not yet, personally. I am lucky to have a family that does not have different expectations of me for being a girl. But I plan on going into a scientific career field, and I am hoping I don't face any discrimination for my gender.

4) Do you feel that your gender is misunderstood by the opposite gender? Have you experienced an "Us/Them" scenario with regard to gender in your relationships with other people?

I think both men and women can get into the habit of stereotyping people of other genders. I believe the structure of this comment is somewhat misleading. Sex and gender are both more of a spectrum than "opposite." Some people are born intersexed, which means they have ambiguous genitalia. The less accurate term is hermaphrodite. Also, some people identify as genderqueer/third gender as opposed to man or woman. Gender is a social construction, as other societies have different gender categories.

5) Are there any fundamental questions you would like to ask of members of the opposite sex?. Any misconceptions you would like to clear up that you feel are generally accepted about your gender?

My only advice is not to stereotype anyone. It's really problematic to treat all men or all women as exactly the same. We don't act or feel or think a certain way just because of our gender.

6) Have you ever felt limited by gender roles or ostricized by other members of your own gender for failing to live up to stereotypes and expectations surrounding your gender?

I feel most comfortable as a bit of a tomboy, and I've felt pressure to look more feminine. I think gender policing is really common. Girls are allowed to be a little more masculine, though being heterosexual and feminine is still the expected norm. But guys get almost no flexibility. There are really strong gender rules for men, from what activities they enjoy to what they wear to who they spend time with and express emotion. I wish that all people could be free to express themselves without having to worry about backlash from others for not fitting into their gender roles.

Overdose January 21st, 2010 10:02 pm

Re: Gender: Roles, Stereotypes, Discrimination Version 2
 
1) Do you believe that men and women are inherently "different" on more than a biological level?

Absolutely. Though what I think you mean is psychological and in terms of actions and reactions etc. Most research prompts the conclusion that yes we are. Indeed, not necessarily to do with gender, but a far more personality traits are inherited than commonly thought and gender does have a basis in this.

2) Do you believe that gendering is a matter of nature or nurture? A combination of both?

Obviously it's both. Genders are fundamentally different in most animals and we are no exception. However, different social groups will of course heavily influence a learning child.

3) Have you ever felt discriminated against or judged based on your gender?

No, though, as a man I have rather less trouble with this sort of thing.

4) Do you feel that your gender is misunderstood by the opposite gender? Have you experienced an "Us/Them" scenario with regard to gender in your relationships with other people?

There are plenty of women who understand the way that men work, and plenty who do not. The same is true vice versa.

5) Are there any fundamental questions you would like to ask of members of the opposite sex? (For obvious reasons, questions must be PG-13). Any misconceptions you would like to clear up that you feel are generally accepted about your gender?

Nope.

6) Have you ever felt limited by gender roles or ostricized by other members of your own gender for failing to live up to stereotypes and expectations surrounding your gender?

Guys used to think I was effeminate at school? But then most of the neanderthals in those bygone days never quite clocked onto the fact that you could present yourself well and play music whilst still netting a fairly high girlfriend total.
No but seriously, apart from silly youth kids stuff years ago not at all. It is hardly going to happen now.

MistressofRaven January 22nd, 2010 1:07 am

Re: Gender: Roles, Stereotypes, Discrimination Version 2
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by MC2456 (Post 5485697)
Both. Traditionally, girls play with dolls, while guys rough-house, and play things like Poke'mon and cars and such. However, there are exceptions to the rules. (I.E me.) I think I had more fun rough-housing with my guy friends (I was seven, okay!), playing Poke'mon cards and setting up cars and trains than playing with dolls.

But it seems that everything you've said is a matter of nurture. Would girls play with dolls if we didn't put dolls in front of their faces? Would boys rough house if we didn't encourage them to be active?

CowsRSkary January 22nd, 2010 1:13 am

Re: Gender: Roles, Stereotypes, Discrimination Version 2
 
Quote:

But it seems that everything you've said is a matter of nurture. Would girls play with dolls if we didn't put dolls in front of their faces? Would boys rough house if we didn't encourage them to be active?
I think that, especially at young ages, they are essentially the same. I think it is more a difference in a child's preference than a gender one.

MistressofRaven January 22nd, 2010 1:32 am

Re: Gender: Roles, Stereotypes, Discrimination Version 2
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by NightWhisper7 (Post 5485953)

Girls are allowed to be a little more masculine, though being heterosexual and feminine is still the expected norm. But guys get almost no flexibility. There are really strong gender rules for men, from what activities they enjoy to what they wear to who they spend time with and express emotion. I wish that all people could be free to express themselves without having to worry about backlash from others for not fitting into their gender roles.

I agree. I think the fact that men are not allowed as much flexibility as women points to the underlying belief that being a man is better than being a woman. Therefore, women wear pants but men don't wear skirts, women cut their hair short but men don't curl their hair, girls are encouraged to play sports but boys are not encouraged to play with dolls or other docile activities.

Quote:

Originally Posted by CowsRSkary (Post 5486120)
I think that, especially at young ages, they are essentially the same. I think it is more a difference in a child's preference than a gender one.

I get what you're saying

Voldemorts8thHorcrux January 22nd, 2010 8:44 pm

Re: Gender: Roles, Stereotypes, Discrimination Version 2
 
Hmm, I wonder what all the more "tomboy" girls have in common if it really is nurture.

MistressofRaven January 22nd, 2010 11:32 pm

Re: Gender: Roles, Stereotypes, Discrimination Version 2
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Voldemorts8thHorcrux (Post 5486456)
Hmm, I wonder what all the more "tomboy" girls have in common if it really is nurture.

Nothing more than what boys who are not effeminate have in common.

Pox Voldius January 22nd, 2010 11:55 pm

Re: Gender: Roles, Stereotypes, Discrimination Version 2
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Voldemorts8thHorcrux (Post 5486456)
Hmm, I wonder what all the more "tomboy" girls have in common if it really is nurture.

I'm not sure that it is nurture. I was a "tomboy" girl despite my mom wanting & trying to influence me to be a girly girl.

Voldemorts8thHorcrux January 23rd, 2010 1:46 am

Re: Gender: Roles, Stereotypes, Discrimination Version 2
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Pox Voldius (Post 5486508)
I'm not sure that it is nurture. I was a "tomboy" girl despite my mom wanting & trying to influence me to be a girly girl.

And that's exactly what my mom did to me :lol:, except i was too stubborn so part of me was ungirly just to spite her.

Siriusandme January 23rd, 2010 10:07 am

Re: Gender: Roles, Stereotypes, Discrimination Version 2
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Pox Voldius (Post 5486508)
I'm not sure that it is nurture. I was a "tomboy" girl despite my mom wanting & trying to influence me to be a girly girl.

It's not, people (and therefor children) are what they are. Wich is why I stated in my earlier post that you can give them all the toys i the world, but they will only play with what they like. I believe a lot of this is in people's character and as parents you can only "work" within those limits. As in, you can't turn a girlie girl into a tomboy.

Voldemorts8thHorcrux January 23rd, 2010 9:23 pm

Re: Gender: Roles, Stereotypes, Discrimination Version 2
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Siriusandme (Post 5486656)
It's not, people (and therefor children) are what they are. Wich is why I stated in my earlier post that you can give them all the toys i the world, but they will only play with what they like. I believe a lot of this is in people's character and as parents you can only "work" within those limits. As in, you can't turn a girlie girl into a tomboy.

I have a slightly different theory. I think that different boys and girls have different tendencies to want to fit into certain categories. I'm not quite sure "Likes playing with dolls" is somewhere in the DNA, but maybe "Wants to be seen as more feminine" is. (Not sure if that made sense)


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