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-   -   Snape and Lily: Joint Character Analysis v.3 (http://www.cosforums.com/showthread.php?t=117144)

eliza101 January 27th, 2010 6:42 pm

Re: Snape and Lily: Joint Character Analysis v.3
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by UselessCharmMaster (Post 5488891)
Absolutely great post! :clap::clap::clap:

Just a little funny thing... I'm reading a book where I've just seen a legend about the foundation of Frankfurt, in Germany. Well, it was founded by the emepror Carolus Magnus (Charlemagne), who crossed the river following a white doe... and then the city name means a "ford of Franks".

And of course The White Stag and Doe were the Patronuses of James and Lily, who could easily be seen as the sacrificed innocents. Didn't the Celts use to sacrifice at river crossings?

UselessCharmMaster January 27th, 2010 6:49 pm

Re: Snape and Lily: Joint Character Analysis v.3
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by eliza101 (Post 5488897)
And of course The White Stag and Doe were the Patronuses of James and Lily, who could easily be seen as the sacrificed innocents.

That makes Snape a sacrificed inocent, too...

eliza101 January 27th, 2010 6:59 pm

Re: Snape and Lily: Joint Character Analysis v.3
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by UselessCharmMaster (Post 5488900)
That makes Snape a sacrificed inocent, too...

Could well be.

hwyla January 27th, 2010 11:23 pm

Re: Snape and Lily: Joint Character Analysis v.3
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by eliza101 (Post 5488897)
And of course The White Stag and Doe were the Patronuses of James and Lily, who could easily be seen as the sacrificed innocents. Didn't the Celts use to sacrifice at river crossings?

Actually - we have no idea what JAMES' patronus was - JKR has never said. And in the books, we are not positive that Lily's was a doe, we only have Harry's word for that and we don't have any hint as to where he got the information. It is possibly intuition on Harry's part - which may or may not be correct.

We DO however, have Harry's patronus of the Stag, which as I said represented Christ to medieval christian Britain (not celtic). I personally do not see Harry as a 'christ figure', however, with his return to life I believe JKR was probably hinting at a connection. I will say that HARRY certainly sacrificed himself, since he went knowingly to die KNOWING he could not fight back.

James and Lily ARE however STILL connected to the symbolism of the deer - neither fits a 'christ-like' situation, since they were not knowingly dying to protect on purpose. Lily's sacrifice is a little bit closer to it that James' because he didn't even get the chance to offer himself up in that way - however he DID sacrifice himself as well - he knew he could not win that fight but sacrificed himself to give Lily more time - not exactly for her protection, but certainly to aid her. Hence we get the statue in the graveyard (at least I 'think' we do - or am I picking up a white marble statue idea from some fanfic???) of the family - almost a Mary/Joseph/babyJesus allusion

And of course there are those who see Snape's death (since he is also connected to the doe) as sacrifical. Again - he is not related to the STAG like Harry, so obviously not a christ-like sacrifice. But he certainly went into danger repeatedly, every time he faced Voldy, knowing that he could not fight back, he must keep his cover.

And many see his death as sacrificing since he knew darn well that HE was NOT the master of the Elder wand. He COULD have told Voldy it was Draco (IF he knew - apparently Draco never bragged about being the one to disarm Albus - otherwise Voldy would have known to go after Draco, not Snape) As far as Snape knew however any of the DEs (or even Harry) could have been the master of the wand - it was gone before HE got there.

For me, I see Snape's death as sacrificing because he spends his last energy ensuring Harry gets the info he needs in the form of his memories. That's basically wandless magic, that COULD have probably been used to heal himself - may not have been enough to do so, but he stops trying as soon as he realized Harry was there and he no longer had to go find him.

RavenStar83 January 28th, 2010 12:02 am

Re: Snape and Lily: Joint Character Analysis v.3
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by hwyla (Post 5489027)
Actually - we have no idea what JAMES' patronus was - JKR has never said.

Yes we do. Dumbledore tells Harry in Book 3 that his patronus is the same as his father's.

Quote:

And in the books, we are not positive that Lily's was a doe, we only have Harry's word for that and we don't have any hint as to where he got the information. It is possibly intuition on Harry's part - which may or may not be correct.
Given that James' patronus and animagus form was a stag, it's safe to say that Lily would be his counterpart since she loved James. Plus, there's no reason to not believe a character and the information they give if there's nothing to disprove it later.

Quote:

Hence we get the statue in the graveyard (at least I 'think' we do - or am I picking up a white marble statue idea from some fanfic???) of the family - almost a Mary/Joseph/babyJesus allusion.
I don't know exactly what JKR's intention was for this image, but I think it's more simple than that. This was the place where Voldemort was supposed to be defeated. From the perspective the Wizarding World, this was the family who made it happen and they died for it. Voldemort's defeat was a huge deal, as we're told of the celebrations that occurred in book 1. I think it was simply a statue to honor these people and to remember such a historical event.

I think great sacrifices were made by Snape, Lily, and many others in this story. Whatever their intentions were before or right at the moment of their death, as far as I'm concerned, everyone on the side of the good was fighting for what they thought was right. Their lives were lost because of it, and they all deserve recognition for what they've done.

And this may belong more to the Snape thread, I think?

TreacleTartlet January 28th, 2010 12:33 am

Re: Snape and Lily: Joint Character Analysis v.3
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by RavenStar83 (Post 5489043)
Yes we do. Dumbledore tells Harry in Book 3 that his patronus is the same as his father's.

Actually, Dumbledore refers only to James' Animagus form, he doesn't mention James' Patronus.

PoA, Owl Post Again.
'Your father is alive in you Harry, and shows himself most plainly when you have need of him. How else could you produce that particular Patronus? Prongs rode again last night.'
It took a moment for Harry to realise what Dumbledore had said.
'Sirius told me all about how they became Animagi last night,' said Dumbledore, smiling. 'An extraordinary achievement - not least, keeping it quiet from me. And then I remembered the unusual form your Patronus took, when it charged Mr Malfoy down at the Quidditch match against Ravenclaw. So you did see your father last night, Harry - you found him inside yourself.'


Lupin also only mentions James' Animagus form.

Harry told Lupin what happened. When he had finished, Lupin was smiling again.
'Yes, your father was always a stag when he transformed,' he said. 'You guessed right...that's why we called him Prongs.

RavenStar83 January 28th, 2010 1:40 am

Re: Snape and Lily: Joint Character Analysis v.3
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by TreacleTartlet (Post 5489058)
Actually, Dumbledore refers only to James' Animagus form, he doesn't mention James' Patronus.

PoA, Owl Post Again.
'Your father is alive in you Harry, and shows himself most plainly when you have need of him. How else could you produce that particular Patronus? Prongs rode again last night.'
It took a moment for Harry to realise what Dumbledore had said.
'Sirius told me all about how they became Animagi last night,' said Dumbledore, smiling. 'An extraordinary achievement - not least, keeping it quiet from me. And then I remembered the unusual form your Patronus took, when it charged Mr Malfoy down at the Quidditch match against Ravenclaw. So you did see your father last night, Harry - you found him inside yourself.'


Lupin also only mentions James' Animagus form.

Harry told Lupin what happened. When he had finished, Lupin was smiling again.
'Yes, your father was always a stag when he transformed,' he said. 'You guessed right...that's why we called him Prongs.

My mistake. And thanks.

As for Lily's patronus though, I think its established in canon that it is in fact a doe from what I stated above.

hwyla January 28th, 2010 1:42 am

Re: Snape and Lily: Joint Character Analysis v.3
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by RavenStar83 (Post 5489043)
Given that James' patronus and animagus form was a stag, it's safe to say that Lily would be his counterpart since she loved James. Plus, there's no reason to not believe a character and the information they give if there's nothing to disprove it later.

Except for there being absolutely no way Harry could actually KNOW Lily's patronus, unless Sirius or Remus had once told it to him - something that needed to be said in the book IF it was going to come up like this.

Personally, I think it makes MUCH more sense for Lily's patronus to be a Stag, indicating her love for James. However, IF it was a doe (which as I said we have no indication of except for a guess by Harry) then it merely shows that she felt that she herself was her strongest protector. Probably a pretty good bet for a spunky gal.

It doesn't really fit however with the idea of Lily just 'going along' with whatever James and Sirius decided re: the SK, which seems to be what Sirius implied in PoA.

Anyways - I only brought this up because someone posted about James and Lily's patroni as deer/sacrifice symbols. It's kind of beginning to get away from Snape/Lily.

RavenStar83 January 28th, 2010 1:52 am

Re: Snape and Lily: Joint Character Analysis v.3
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by hwyla (Post 5489102)
Except for there being absolutely no way Harry could actually KNOW Lily's patronus, unless Sirius or Remus had once told it to him - something that needed to be said in the book IF it was going to come up like this.

Addressed in the Lily: Character Analysis thread.

Moriath January 28th, 2010 8:41 am

Re: Snape and Lily: Joint Character Analysis v.3
 
New and shiny thread is up!


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