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sweetsev August 7th, 2009 3:01 pm

Re: Snape and Lily: Joint Character Analysis v.3
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by hwyla (Post 5385786)
Yes, IF Snape had actually been 'obsessive' why in the world didn't he slip her a love potion, like Merope? Why not Imperio her?

Why in the world would he just leave her alone? That does NOT fit an obsessive pattern. An obsessive pattern would be someone who just wouldn't stop bothering her, continually asking her out even after she repeated told him no.

Hmm, I'm getting confused with the way the word "obsessive" is being used. I completely agree that Snape was in no way "stalkerish" toward Lily and I most certainly characterize his feelings toward her as love. I would not use a weaker word, like infatuation or obsession; it was an imperfect love, for sure, but it was love....there's no need for me to qualify Snape's emotions just because he isn't a perfect person. I can't think of any love that is perfect (unless we start talking about spiritual matters, which are not relevant).

All that said, it is my belief that Snape was an obsessive person; I saw that as a dominant part of his personality. I would say that played out in his inability to move on from Lily and his grudge holding with James. But it was also in his dedication to atonement for his guilt, his perfectionism in school, his relentless pursuit of the DADA position: he was an all or nothing kind of person. I think it was both a strength and a weakness for him, so it's not a particular judgment that I am putting on him or the nature of his love: it's just an observation and I wanted to explain what I meant by the word "obsessive". Hopefully that makes some sort of sense...

Pearl_Took August 7th, 2009 4:35 pm

Re: Snape and Lily: Joint Character Analysis v.3
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by sweetsev (Post 5385822)
Hmm, I'm getting confused with the way the word "obsessive" is being used. I completely agree that Snape was in no way "stalkerish" toward Lily and I most certainly characterize his feelings toward her as love. I would not use a weaker word, like infatuation or obsession; it was an imperfect love, for sure, but it was love....there's no need for me to qualify Snape's emotions just because he isn't a perfect person. I can't think of any love that is perfect (unless we start talking about spiritual matters, which are not relevant).

All that said, it is my belief that Snape was an obsessive person; I saw that as a dominant part of his personality. I would say that played out in his inability to move on from Lily and his grudge holding with James. But it was also in his dedication to atonement for his guilt, his perfectionism in school, his relentless pursuit of the DADA position: he was an all or nothing kind of person. I think it was both a strength and a weakness for him, so it's not a particular judgment that I am putting on him or the nature of his love: it's just an observation and I wanted to explain what I meant by the word "obsessive". Hopefully that makes some sort of sense...

I agree with this. This is how I see Snape -- my favourite character, bar Harry. 'All or nothing' describes him very well, and it was certainly both a strength and a weakness.

I believe JKR paints him as a very wounded child, and an emotionally damaged adult who was often harsh with others. :shrug:

I see him as a very insecure and socially awkward boy: he is often tongue-tied with Lily, and can act in a very insecure manner regarding their friendship, almost wanting Lily for himself at times, it seems ... she was something good in his life, so he wanted to hang onto her. I don't see that as creepy or 'stalker-ish': I see it as poignant, and sad, because I see Lily as a bright beacon in his dark, troubled and sometimes lonely world.

I mean, really, if Severus was that creepy and that unpleasant a character, why on earth would a girl like Lily ever have bothered with him? :yuhup: She was clearly very fond of him and he must have had qualities she liked, in addition to being the first magical friend she ever made.

The_Green_Woods August 7th, 2009 4:35 pm

Re: Snape and Lily: Joint Character Analysis v.3
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by sweetsev (Post 5385822)
All that said, it is my belief that Snape was an obsessive person; I saw that as a dominant part of his personality. I would say that played out in his inability to move on from Lily and his grudge holding with James. But it was also in his dedication to atonement for his guilt, his perfectionism in school, his relentless pursuit of the DADA position: he was an all or nothing kind of person. I think it was both a strength and a weakness for him, so it's not a particular judgment that I am putting on him or the nature of his love: it's just an observation and I wanted to explain what I meant by the word "obsessive". Hopefully that makes some sort of sense...

I googled and found Obsessive in wiki is given as a disorder.

Quote:

posted by Wikipedia
Obsessive–compulsive disorder (OCD) is a mental disorder characterized by intrusive thoughts that produce anxiety, by repetitive behaviors aimed at reducing anxiety, or by combinations of such thoughts (obsessions) and behaviors (compulsions). The symptoms of this anxiety disorder range from repetitive hand-washing and extensive hoarding to preoccupation with sexual, religious, or aggressive impulses. These symptoms can be alienating and time-consuming, and often cause severe emotional and economic loss. Although the acts of those who have OCD may appear paranoid and come across to others as psychotic, OCD sufferers often recognize their thoughts and subsequent actions as irrational, and they may become further distressed by this realization.
Snape IMO was not suffering from obsessiveness IMO; I don't see the type of love he had as an obsessive feeling, mainly because he did not act on it; I felt he could not help loving her and once she died in a way that his actions linked him to her death, I think it became important for Snape's soul to atone for that, not because he was obsessive, but because his love would not let him rest until he had atoned for it.

He thought it was over when Voldemort fell for the first time, but when Dumbledore told him that Voldemort would return and that he needed Snape for Harry, I think Snape felt he needed to hold on to what he saw as his duty to help Lily Potter's son in the war, since Lily was not there anymore and neither was James IMO. There was a need to accept what Dumbledore was asking of him, because I think Snape once again linked this to his actions, which made him accept it as part of the duty he had assumed for himself and then sincerely work for it.

His love I feel was quite different to this duty if I can call it that; a duty he created for himself because of his own mistakes and he did what he needed to do in that role. In the role of spy for Voldemort and as a DE in hiding, Snape had to behave in a certain manner, which I think he did.

But his love I feel ran parallel to this and was in a way quite separate from this.

The love he had was a intense feeling along with a regret that it could never be fulfilled, but I don't think this love pulled him down him in any way from doing his duties as teacher, spy or false DE; it was simply there inside him, a part of him which was very private IMO. It did not consume him in a way which affected him and it did not eat him up in such a way he could not do his work properly IMO.

As far as James was concerned, I think Snape simply hated him as some people hate other people, some for a very good reason; others for no reason at all IMO.

sweetsev August 7th, 2009 4:48 pm

Re: Snape and Lily: Joint Character Analysis v.3
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by The_Green_Woods (Post 5385875)
I googled and found Obsessive in wiki is given as a disorder.

TGW, you are talking about a very specific psychiatric diagnosis....an anxiety disorder, that I agree does not fit Snape at all.

I'm not inclined to hand out official diagnoses for literary characters, but I would put Snape closer to "Obsessive-Compulsive Personality Disorder" which is COMPLETELY different.

a quick description:

"Obsessive-Compulsive Personality Disorder is a condition characterized by a chronic preoccupation with rules, orderliness, and control. This disorder is only diagnosed when these behaviors become persistent and disabling. The individual with this disorder often becomes upset when control is lost. The individual then either emotionally withdraws from these situations, or becomes very angry. The individual usually expresses affection in a highly controlled or stilted fashion and may be very uncomfortable in the presence of others who are emotionally expressive. The person often has difficulty expressing tender feelings, and rarely pays compliments."

That's more in line with what i meant....along with the "all or nothing" part.

wickedwickedboy August 7th, 2009 5:12 pm

Re: Snape and Lily: Joint Character Analysis v.3
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Yoana (Post 5385782)
I don't get the "desire for Lily" bit. If he'd desired her, it's very odd that he didn' pursue her past his attempt at an apology after their fall-out. :shrug:

Not the sexual nonsense Voldy was talking about - I meant normal desire.

However I interpret Snape's acts and behavior from the time he found out Lily was targeted through his meeting with Dumbledore upon discovering Lily had died, as his pursuit of her (imo). I feel that was the basis for Dumbledore's disgust in their conversation on the hill. I've always seen it that way, however, I realize others may interpret it distinctly.

Quote:

Originally Posted by The_Green_Woods (Post 5385791)
When Dumbledore after working with Snape closely for years was unable to discern Snape's love for Lily, which lay buried deep into his heart, I would like to know from where in the Books you understand that Snape's feelings for Lily were not beneficial to others around him. I don't think others knew even that Snape had feelings for Lily at all.

Well the negative things I listed I feel were not beneficial to others, but harmful. I feel those things were motivated by Snape's feelings for Lily. If he didn't have any feelings for her, he would have no cause to be jealous on her behalf, imo, and he would not have mistreated her son particularly for that reason, imo. I also feel his emotions fueled his grudge holding.

Quote:

I disagree and I think there is no canon for this, seeing that Snape spoke negatively only of James to Harry, for which I believe Snape had a reason; I don't see any mention about Lily at all. There is no canon for this either. It isn't even implied in the Books IMO.
Well this was just my opinion, based on my interpretation of the canon. :)

Quote:

Originally Posted by sweetsev (Post 5385822)
Hmm, I'm getting confused with the way the word "obsessive" is being used. I completely agree that Snape was in no way "stalkerish" toward Lily and I most certainly characterize his feelings toward her as love. I would not use a weaker word, like infatuation or obsession; it was an imperfect love, for sure, but it was love....there's no need for me to qualify Snape's emotions just because he isn't a perfect person. I can't think of any love that is perfect (unless we start talking about spiritual matters, which are not relevant).

All that said, it is my belief that Snape was an obsessive person; I saw that as a dominant part of his personality. I would say that played out in his inability to move on from Lily and his grudge holding with James. But it was also in his dedication to atonement for his guilt, his perfectionism in school, his relentless pursuit of the DADA position: he was an all or nothing kind of person. I think it was both a strength and a weakness for him, so it's not a particular judgment that I am putting on him or the nature of his love: it's just an observation and I wanted to explain what I meant by the word "obsessive". Hopefully that makes some sort of sense...

I agree. But I think that there was some evidence that Snape's character involved following Lily about and spying on her - that is what appeared was happening before he actually met her, imo (DH-TPT). He later spied on his enemies, following them around in a similar manner for another purpose (POA/DH TPT). So I don't think it is beyond reason to feel that he would exhibit that behavior with Lily in a go forward manner (his later career as an adult both under Voldemort and Dumbledore included spying - GoF/OOTP/DH-TPT). But I don't think there is evidence in the canon that he was directly harrassing her with his behavior after the end of their friendship. However, I do feel his hexing of her boyfriend in 7th when they started dating is strong evidence that he had not stopped all negative action relative to his emotions for Lily after the friendship ended, imo.

To me, Snape's ongoing emotions for Lily did include obession - but obviously not in a stalker sense (she was dead). I meant more in terms of his over-focus upon his imo, romantic emotions for her, in light of the fact that they had never had a romantic relationship; and my interpretation of the canon indicated to me that he retained strong feelings of jealousy based on his emotions for her, which played out in his mistreatment of her son and also I feel fueled his dislike of her son, husband and their adult friends, imo. Further, I feel this played out in his personality as a character, as I indicated in my previous post. I also think that canon such as his sneaking into Sirius' room, ransacking it to some degree and finding a picture and letter, destroying the photo and taking those parts he wanted was evidence of obsessive behavior on his part with respect to the issue. His patronus was also indicative of this to me. That was my overall conclusion from the canon.

I think the above was Snape's idea of love and possibly because it was the only way he ever experienced it - or because of other unknown factors, imo. I wouldn't call it love except from Snape's point of view, but I do think that it motivated both in the negative sense I pointed out above and also in the positive sense of being the catalyst for his ultimate rejection of Voldemort and loyalty to Dumbledore, imo.

Grymmditch August 7th, 2009 6:05 pm

Re: Snape and Lily: Joint Character Analysis v.3
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Yoana (Post 5385098)
I don't get what Bella's doing in this discussion and on this thread. :hmm:

He used her for an analogy, obviously, used in making meaningful comparisons.
It helped Wickedwickedboy state his point, with which I happen to fully agree.
Discussion of any other character shouldn't be banned from the thread just because it's primarily about Snape and Lily. What about the mentions of Dumbledore? or James?

alwaysme August 7th, 2009 6:09 pm

Re: Snape and Lily: Joint Character Analysis v.3
 
If you wish to make the comparisons it's fine. As long as the main focus is kept on Snape and Lily.

sweetsev August 7th, 2009 6:27 pm

Re: Snape and Lily: Joint Character Analysis v.3
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by wickedwickedboy (Post 5385909)
I agree. But I think that there was some evidence that Snape's character involved following Lily about and spying on her - that is what appeared was happening before he actually met her, imo (DH-TPT). He later spied on his enemies, following them around in a similar manner for another purpose (POA/DH TPT). So I don't think it is beyond reason to feel that he would exhibit that behavior with Lily in a go forward manner (his later career as an adult both under Voldemort and Dumbledore included spying - GoF/OOTP/DH-TPT). But I don't think there is evidence in the canon that he was directly harrassing her with his behavior after the end of their friendship. However, I do feel his hexing of her boyfriend in 7th when they started dating is strong evidence that he had not stopped all negative action relative to his emotions for Lily after the friendship ended, imo.

To me, Snape's ongoing emotions for Lily did include obession - but obviously not in a stalker sense (she was dead). I meant more in terms of his over-focus upon his imo, romantic emotions for her, in light of the fact that they had never had a romantic relationship; and my interpretation of the canon indicated to me that he retained strong feelings of jealousy based on his emotions for her, which played out in his mistreatment of her son and also I feel fueled his dislike of her son, husband and their adult friends, imo. Further, I feel this played out in his personality as a character, as I indicated in my previous post. I also think that canon such as his sneaking into Sirius' room, ransacking it to some degree and finding a picture and letter, destroying the photo and taking those parts he wanted was evidence of obsessive behavior on his part with respect to the issue. His patronus was also indicative of this to me. That was my overall conclusion from the canon.

I think the above was Snape's idea of love and possibly because it was the only way he ever experienced it - or because of other unknown factors, imo. I wouldn't call it love except from Snape's point of view, but I do think that it motivated both in the negative sense I pointed out above and also in the positive sense of being the catalyst for his ultimate rejection of Voldemort and loyalty to Dumbledore, imo.

I think you are adding an element of "creepy love" onto your use of obsession, then? I may not be understanding you correctly. I respect your opinion, of course, that is just not at all what I meant by obsessive: I just meant overcontrolled, rigid, not letting go as a general temperament; not in any pathological or lecherous sense (or OCD-sense, for that matter).

I guess I also felt that Snape's feelings about James originated separately from his feelings about Lily...and then they later got mixed up and were embodied in Harry. I felt that JKR was trying to show us that Snape had reasons to hate James that did not have to do with Lily (i.e. beyond jealousy). Therefore his behavior toward Harry was a combination of conflicting emotions. That is:

a. He was cruel to Harry in spite of his love for Lily.
b. He protected Harry in spite of his hatred for James.

I think you are saying something somewhat different: that Snape was jealous of James and so he was mean to Harry. Again, I respect your opinion, but that is not my own personal interpretation of Snape's actions.

wickedwickedboy August 7th, 2009 7:20 pm

Re: Snape and Lily: Joint Character Analysis v.3
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by sweetsev (Post 5385959)
I think you are adding an element of "creepy love" onto your use of obsession, then? I may not be understanding you correctly. I respect your opinion, of course, that is just not at all what I meant by obsessive: I just meant overcontrolled, rigid, not letting go as a general temperament; not in any pathological or lecherous sense (or OCD-sense, for that matter).

No, I haven't used the word creepy because I don't feel is applicable to my opinion. I found Snape overly-focused and that is what I meant by obsessive in terms of his emotions for Lily.

Quote:

I guess I also felt that Snape's feelings about James originated separately from his feelings about Lily...and then they later got mixed up and were embodied in Harry. I felt that JKR was trying to show us that Snape had reasons to hate James that did not have to do with Lily (i.e. beyond jealousy). Therefore his behavior toward Harry was a combination of conflicting emotions. That is:

a. He was cruel to Harry in spite of his love for Lily.
b. He protected Harry in spite of his hatred for James.

I think you are saying something somewhat different: that Snape was jealous of James and so he was mean to Harry. Again, I respect your opinion, but that is not my own personal interpretation of Snape's actions.
Oh no, I didn't mean that entirely. I think there was jealousy from when they were young, prior to James and Lily getting together on the part of both young boys (JKR confirmed this, but I saw it in SWM for myself anyway). But I don't think that is all their feelings were based on - they didn't like one another back then, I agree with that also - like Harry didn't like Draco and visa versa. However, I think that Snape's jealousy only grew when James and Lily got together and that fueled his dislike and later, James was completely out of sight for Snape - but still with Lily, who Snape still had emotions for (after Hogwarts). I feel that Snape's jealousy continued to spur on his dislike based on that factor too, imo.

JKR said that Snape saw Harry as a representation of Lily's love for another man and I think that jealousy became his primary motivator in his treatment of Harry (imo). But I don't discount the dislike Snape had as well, I just think it was heightened by his jealous feelings and the latter was the over-riding emotion by then.

So while I don't disagree with you that there were separate issues involved initially, I think they were so intermixed by the time Harry came along, they could be construed as one, imo. And I felt that stemmed from his continued over-focus on his emotions for Lily and the resultant jealousy - which in turn, fueled the dislike beyond what it had been, imo. In evidence, I can tell you lots about what Snape thinks of James - but very little about what Snape thinks of Sirius beyond the fact that he dislikes him as well (based on my reading of the canon). So there is a distinction there, imo, and I feel that protrayal was indicative of jealousy being at play relative to Snape's emotions for Lily (imo).

sweetsev August 7th, 2009 8:31 pm

Re: Snape and Lily: Joint Character Analysis v.3
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by wickedwickedboy (Post 5386034)
Oh no, I didn't mean that entirely. I think there was jealousy from when they were young, prior to James and Lily getting together on the part of both young boys (JKR confirmed this, but I saw it in SWM for myself anyway). But I don't think that is all their feelings were based on - they didn't like one another back then, I agree with that also - like Harry didn't like Draco and visa versa. However, I think that Snape's jealousy only grew when James and Lily got together and that fueled his dislike and later, James was completely out of sight for Snape - but still with Lily, who Snape still had emotions for (after Hogwarts). I feel that Snape's jealousy continued to spur on his dislike based on that factor too, imo.

JKR said that Snape saw Harry as a representation of Lily's love for another man and I think that jealousy became his primary motivator in his treatment of Harry (imo). But I don't discount the dislike Snape had as well, I just think it was heightened by his jealous feelings and the latter was the over-riding emotion by then.

So while I don't disagree with you that there were separate issues involved initially, I think they were so intermixed by the time Harry came along, they could be construed as one, imo. And I felt that stemmed from his continued over-focus on his emotions for Lily and the resultant jealousy - which in turn, fueled the dislike beyond what it had been, imo. In evidence, I can tell you lots about what Snape thinks of James - but very little about what Snape thinks of Sirius beyond the fact that he dislikes him as well (based on my reading of the canon). So there is a distinction there, imo, and I feel that protrayal was indicative of jealousy being at play relative to Snape's emotions for Lily (imo).

I get what you're saying...I agree that Snape was certainly jealous and that all of his feelings about Lily and James were all mixed together (love, hate, jealousy, ack she made a baby with someone else, etc) and it all came out at Harry. However, I think that if Lily had gone on to marry some random Ravenclaw that Snape would have been jealous, but not as ferociously spiteful to Harry. I do think Snape had a lot of anger toward James prior to Lily's feelings that did not stem from jealousy (starting from on the train). Therefore, it was not just losing Lily that was so awful, it was losing Lily to James Potter, specifically, that was unthinkable. I always felt that Snape's ranting about James' "arrogance" and rule-breaking was just a replacement of what he really wanted to say: "he humiliated me and made me lose Lily."

wickedwickedboy August 7th, 2009 9:49 pm

Re: Snape and Lily: Joint Character Analysis v.3
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by sweetsev (Post 5386120)
Therefore, it was not just losing Lily that was so awful, it was losing Lily to James Potter, specifically, that was unthinkable. I always felt that Snape's ranting about James' "arrogance" and rule-breaking was just a replacement of what he really wanted to say: "he humiliated me and made me lose Lily."

Well yeah - the enemy angle didn't help either. But while I agree Snape might have wanted to instead say "he humiliated me and made me lose Lily" - that would be a completely mischaracterization of the facts, imo. Snape lost Lily's friendship because of who he was - being humiliated would earn her sympathy, imo, not make her end the friendship. Perhaps you mean to add, provoking him to call her a Mudblood; but if that is what you mean, I can't really address what provoked Snape to make that comment about Lily under the circumstances in terms of humiliation. I don't see how that could work - I think it was jealousy and anger, because it would seem such a derogatory comment would be directed at the person who provoked it and Lily hadn't humiliated him, but I think she may have made him feel jealous and angry. Although, the comment was made to James, so it is possible that Snape, knowing James was crushing on Lily, wished to hurt him with the comment as well, based on his earlier humiliating comment to Snape, that should be greatful Lily was present. So in that light, I could agree with humiliation being a motivating factor. Still, I can't relate to his thinking in that part of that scene too well, because it is so outside of my own realm of thinking - I could never be provoked into saying something like that, so I have a hard time trying to put it into perspective, but I try.

In any case, because I feel that way, I don't really think that is what Snape wanted to 'really' say (in lieu of what he did say in the Harry years). I think he wanted to really say he was jealous because Lily had fallen in love with another man - that particular man made it worse yet, but was secondary to the fact that he wanted to win her love himself, imo. However, Snape's concentration on that factor was a means of taking the focus off of himself, imo, because the real reason he didn't keep Lily's friendship and was unable to further pursue any romantic interest was because of his dark interests, imo, which is what Lily said when she ended the friendship - and what she'd been complaining about prior to that based on the scene we saw in DH-TPT.

I feel Snape's friendship with Lily would have come to a crashing end whether he had called her a Mudblood or not that day, because his interests were separating them as friends in any case, imo. To me, if he came to agree with that assessment by Lily - (together with some of the other important points I feel she brought up and showed via her behavior) - in his later years, he could have concentrated his efforts on improving himself according to his own evaluation, imo. That to me would have been a legacy of his love for Lily perhaps, but more importantly, a legacy he could earn for himself based on his own introspective conclusions and decisions in that regard (imo). It has been suggested that Snape was too damaged to do so, but I don't feel that way. I don't feel he was damaged; I feel that he was simply too focused on feeling good about himself the way he was, excusing his behavior, words and actions to himself and focusing on those things he wanted to, including and perhaps predominantly his emotions for Lily, to consider doing anything else (imo).

sweetsev August 8th, 2009 12:19 am

Re: Snape and Lily: Joint Character Analysis v.3
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by wickedwickedboy (Post 5386172)

I feel Snape's friendship with Lily would have come to a crashing end whether he had called her a Mudblood or not that day, because his interests were separating them as friends in any case, imo. To me, if he came to agree with that assessment by Lily - (together with some of the other important points I feel she brought up and showed via her behavior) - in his later years, he could have concentrated his efforts on improving himself according to his own evaluation, imo. That to me would have been a legacy of his love for Lily perhaps, but more importantly, a legacy he could earn for himself based on his own introspective conclusions and decisions in that regard (imo). It has been suggested that Snape was too damaged to do so, but I don't feel that way. I don't feel he was damaged; I feel that he was simply too focused on feeling good about himself the way he was, excusing his behavior, words and actions to himself and focusing on those things he wanted to, including and perhaps predominantly his emotions for Lily, to consider doing anything else (imo).

Oh sorry, I think I wasn't clear. I meant that the statement "he humiliated me and made me lose Lily" was Snape's perspective (and yes, a misrepresentation of the facts). I felt that he saw that incident as the end of their friendship and felt anger toward James for provoking him (in addition to truly hating James for humiliating him). I don't think it's until later, near his death, when he fully accepts that Lily left him because of the dark path he chose to go down, and that using that word was just the last straw: I think this is the point where he does come to the self assessment you are talking about, but it's not until the very end. Up until then I see him as holding onto and acting out his misplaced rage at James Potter. I'm not sure I would say he was "too damaged" to change earlier...."invested" may be a better word, for me. It's easier for Snape to blame James (and Harry) than it is to blame himself, although he's torn because he loves Lily too and carries a great deal of guilt about her death.

I think we disagree as to which emotion was primary: misplaced blame/real hatred or male jealousy, but I do agree that both were in play for Snape. I know you don't see him as redeemed at the end of the story, but I do...And I think he does make the profound personal change, based on his love, when he is able to let go of his anger, take full ownership of his failures and confess them to Harry. (However, isn't he only 38 when he dies?...that's not really his "later years." He's still fairly young, maybe he would have changed even more.)

wickedwickedboy August 8th, 2009 1:20 am

Re: Snape and Lily: Joint Character Analysis v.3
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by sweetsev (Post 5386269)
Oh sorry, I think I wasn't clear. I meant that the statement "he humiliated me and made me lose Lily" was Snape's perspective (and yes, a misrepresentation of the facts). I felt that he saw that incident as the end of their friendship and felt anger toward James for provoking him (in addition to truly hating James for humiliating him). I don't think it's until later, near his death, when he fully accepts that Lily left him because of the dark path he chose to go down, and that using that word was just the last straw: I think this is the point where he does come to the self assessment you are talking about, but it's not until the very end. Up until then I see him as holding onto and acting out his misplaced rage at James Potter. I'm not sure I would say he was "too damaged" to change earlier...."invested" may be a better word, for me. It's easier for Snape to blame James (and Harry) than it is to blame himself, although he's torn because he loves Lily too and carries a great deal of guilt about her death.

Well I understand invested as the same thing I was saying, if I understand you correctly.

Quote:

I think we disagree as to which emotion was primary: misplaced blame/real hatred or male jealousy, but I do agree that both were in play for Snape. I know you don't see him as redeemed at the end of the story, but I do...And I think he does make the profound personal change, based on his love, when he is able to let go of his anger, take full ownership of his failures and confess them to Harry. (However, isn't he only 38 when he dies?...that's not really his "later years." He's still fairly young, maybe he would have changed even more.)
I agree we have the order of emotions at distinct levels. What do you mean by "take full ownership of his failures precisely and confess them to Harry"? Which failures and how did you see them as confessed? If that is a question requiring a long answer you don't wish to write, I understand, but I am curious. :)

sweetsev August 8th, 2009 2:23 am

Re: Snape and Lily: Joint Character Analysis v.3
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by wickedwickedboy (Post 5386307)
I agree we have the order of emotions at distinct levels. What do you mean by "take full ownership of his failures precisely and confess them to Harry"? Which failures and how did you see them as confessed? If that is a question requiring a long answer you don't wish to write, I understand, but I am curious. :)

My short answer would be that Snape, at the end of his life, is able to face the fact that he lost Lily because he bought into the DE ideology and went down a dark path. He shows Harry memories where she expresses her concern about this and he doesn't listen (yes, I think there were other factors at play, but I think he was showing Harry his failure--and the primary reason for the ending of the friendship.) I also think he is trying to tell Harry that his other failure was, that after Lily died, he chose to work for DD and against Voldemort only to keep her son alive; not because being a DE was wrong. Both of these failures allowed him to treat Harry poorly because he wrongly blamed/rightly hated/was jealous of James and because he wasn't motivated by a sense of justice and morality; only begrudging single-focused duty. His narrow focus allowed him to hold onto his hatred (although it also pushed him to undertake some dangerous tasks). But, by the end, I think he has transcended these issues and in showing all of it to Harry, he is asking for forgiveness and acknowledging these failures.

That wasn't short at all. Sorry!

wickedwickedboy August 8th, 2009 3:11 am

Re: Snape and Lily: Joint Character Analysis v.3
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by sweetsev (Post 5386355)
My short answer would be that Snape, at the end of his life, is able to face the fact that he lost Lily because he bought into the DE ideology and went down a dark path. He shows Harry memories where she expresses her concern about this and he doesn't listen (yes, I think there were other factors at play, but I think he was showing Harry his failure--and the primary reason for the ending of the friendship.) I also think he is trying to tell Harry that his other failure was, that after Lily died, he chose to work for DD and against Voldemort only to keep her son alive; not because being a DE was wrong. Both of these failures allowed him to treat Harry poorly because he wrongly blamed/rightly hated/was jealous of James and because he wasn't motivated by a sense of justice and morality; only begrudging single-focused duty. His narrow focus allowed him to hold onto his hatred (although it also pushed him to undertake some dangerous tasks). But, by the end, I think he has transcended these issues and in showing all of it to Harry, he is asking for forgiveness and acknowledging these failures.

That wasn't short at all. Sorry!

Thanks for the explanation. So we do disagree - although I respect your take on it. Some of what you said I agreed with, in line with Snape's emotions for Lily. But I am in the camp that believes Snape loathed Harry to the end, unfairly, so I wouldn't be able to say that his feelings for Lily helped him overcome that or admit that he was wrong to have mistreated Harry or miscontrue his father to him, imo, which bears on the whole repentance/remorse issue for me. So in the end I guess we'd have to agree to disagree on this point.

GriseldatheGood August 14th, 2009 4:20 am

Re: Snape and Lily: Joint Character Analysis v.3
 
Snape's hatred of muggles didn't start at Hogwarts, though; the seeds were planted with his father, and possibly Petunia. So even if he hadn't been in Slytherin I think that would have become an issue. I wonder, did Lily ever bring him round her house to meet her parents? Would it have softened his views toward muggles?

Chris August 14th, 2009 4:40 am

Re: Snape and Lily: Joint Character Analysis v.3
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by GriseldatheGood (Post 5391670)
Snape's hatred of muggles didn't start at Hogwarts, though; the seeds were planted with his father, and possibly Petunia. So even if he hadn't been in Slytherin I think that would have become an issue. I wonder, did Lily ever bring him round her house to meet her parents? Would it have softened his views toward muggles?

Might have made it worse, especially if Petunia and Lily had a fight over something Snape-related. It may not have mattered that Lily's parents were evidently pretty cool with the magical world.

arithmancer August 14th, 2009 5:02 am

Re: Snape and Lily: Joint Character Analysis v.3
 
Lily did bring Snape to her house on at least one occasion, this can be deduced from "The Prince's Tale", the scene with the Hogwarts Express. Snape saw a letter Petunia had gotten from Hogwarts and told Lily what it was - they then read it together. They would have to have been at the Evans' house when this occured.

Sister_Grimm August 16th, 2009 6:29 am

Re: Snape and Lily: Joint Character Analysis v.3
 
1. Why do you think Snape was so reluctant to approach Lily? Would he have been interested in her if she had not been magical?

I think he was shy, and yes, I think he would have been interested in a non-magical Lily... he might convince himself otherwise, but deep down, I think he would be.

2. Why did Lily accept Snape's friendship? Would she have been as friendly to him if he had not told her about the magical world?

She accepted Snape's friendship because that's just who Lily is. Of course she would've accepted it with or without magic -- Lily's the type of person who'll give anybody a try.

3. What role did each of them play in the friendship? Do you think it was a friendship of equals?

I think that Lily played the role of the more responsible/loving half, and Snape the more informative half. Really, Lily gave more to the relationship in my own opinion, though I'm sure Snape tried to.

4. How did Hogwarts effect the friendship? We see that up until fifth year they consider themselves to be "best friends", despite the house system. Do you think they both worked to maintain the friendship?

I think they did both work to maintain the friendship, though it was inevitable that they'd be split apart.

5. How did Gryffindor change Lily? How did Slytherin change Snape? Would each have changed in the same way if they had been sorted into another house? Would the friendship have changed as drastically if they were in the same house?

I don't that either was changed by their houses, but rather by the people in them. Lily started to fall for James, and Snape started to fall in with the Death Eaters. Had Snape not been in Slytherin, their frienship might've been spared.

6. What was the death knoll for the friendship? Was it Snape's budding interest in the Dark Arts, the mudblood insult or something else?

A mixture. Snape's interest in the Dark Arts played a big role, and I doubt that the mudblood insult alone would've set Lily off like that.

7. Was there a different choice Snape could have made to save the friendship? Was there a different choice Lily could have made?

Snape apologized scincerely. Lily could've been a bit easier on him.

8. How would their lives have been different if they had managed to save their friendship? Do you think they might have had a romantic future? A lifelong friendship?

I think they would have a romantic future, actually. There's no way Snape would be satisfied with staying "just friends", and I think that Lily would really start to fall for him.

halfbloodsnape August 24th, 2009 9:30 am

Re: Snape and Lily: Joint Character Analysis v.3
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by zgirnius (Post 5391713)
Lily did bring Snape to her house on at least one occasion, this can be deduced from "The Prince's Tale", the scene with the Hogwarts Express. Snape saw a letter Petunia had gotten from Hogwarts and told Lily what it was - they then read it together. They would have to have been at the Evans' house when this occured.

It is sure they were inside since Petunia accuses them of going through her private stuff, and Lily says they didn't go through it, they just 'saw' it, so they must have been in their house.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chris (Post 5391691)
Might have made it worse, especially if Petunia and Lily had a fight over something Snape-related. It may not have mattered that Lily's parents were evidently pretty cool with the magical world.

I think Snape's prejudice at that time had its roots deeper than that. When Lily asks wether being a muggle-born makes a difference he hesitates before saying that it doesn't, and I am pretty sure his mother has something to do with this hesitation. Although it might also be true, that he simply had knowledge about Slytherin house and it's credo about pure bloods, and he knew that sometimes it does make a difference so he simply witheld that and thus the hesitation. (I doubt that Snape ever really believed in this pure-blood thing...)


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