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-   -   Snape and Lily: Joint Character Analysis v.3 (http://www.cosforums.com/showthread.php?t=117144)

wickedwickedboy September 22nd, 2008 4:20 am

Re: Snape and Lily: Joint Character Analysis v.3
 
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Originally Posted by zgirnius (Post 5143425)
blackmail: 2. a: extortion or coercion by threats especially of public exposure or criminal prosecution b: the payment that is extorted (Merriam Webster Online).

That was a reasonable use of the term, in other words. :)

How do you figure? There was no extortion and no "coercion by threat" - nor were public exposure or criminal prosecution threatened. There was bribery plain and simple. If you do this for me, I will do this for you and the terms were unequal. Charging the character with blackmail is a false accusation, imo. It would be akin to charging Snape with attempted murder for using his Sectumsempra light - a mischaracterization, imo.

The real coercion by threat was made by Snape (although it was not blackmail). But just to clarify; in memory #5 he attempted to coerce Lily via a threat "I won't let you..." That is what is meant.

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Originally Posted by Raelis (Post 5143412)
Why am I not surprised? :lol:

:rotfl:

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And? Sirius loved Harry, yet it didn’t occur to him that Harry might want to have a look at his mother’s picture and letter.
I don't understand; could you explain what you mean. I mean Sirius loved James, Lily and Harry too - he surely wished to look upon his personal pictures of his loved ones until he died and then he'd leave them to Harry. He didn't plan on dying you know...he gave some pics to Harry and kept some to look at himself.

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I don’t get why such a big deal is made about Snape “stealing” the the items. I find it much more surprising that Sirius didn't give them to Harry, although it would not have presented any problems for him.
I explained that above. You don't see why a big deal is being made of stealing the valuable private property of another? It is morally wrong in real life, in every society - so I don't understand why you are confused about that.

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Hey, don’t put words into my mouth. :lol: I certainly didn’t characterize Snape as an irredeemable idiot. I said he’d have to be an irredeemable idiot to believe such and such, but I immediately added that I don’t see him as an idiot and provided explanation for my believing so. I prefer to interpret JKR’s statement in the only way I think it makes sense.
Oh I didn't mean for you to infer I thought you believed it. I just meant that you made a very good point and I accept your characterization as correct: Snape was reaching conclusions in an idiotic manner if he believed Lily would be impressed by his becoming a Death Eater. I do feel though that JKR may have simply meant that he was socially inept - unable to grasp the idiocy of that particular idea as well as a few others associated with his dark interests.


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*Shrug* Looks like we're gonna have to agree to disagree once more. By this line of reasoning James was bullying Sirius because even after finding out that Sirius’s whole family was in Slytherin, he continued expressing distaste and disdain for members of this House, thus placing all Sirius’s family members, including the ones Sirius liked, beneath himself.
They were all Death Eaters - they were all beneath James and Sirius in that light. Meaning of course all humans are equal, but the Death Eater mentality and actions place them in a position that is below normative social behavior (killing, etc.). It is not bullying a criminal to call them out on their bad deeds and condemn them for them, imo, and in light of social norms (speaking of Sirius' relatives who were Death Eaters)

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Hagrid was also a bully, he used the word “squib” as an insult when he was referring to Filch – he was mocking the circumstances over which Filch had no control and ended up humiliating all squibs altogether. Practically every character in HP is a bully if name calling and generalization are considered bullying. :rolleyes:
Snape was calling people Mudblood as he did to Lily - that, imo is bullying behavior. Hagrid behaving in a bullying manner doesn't having anything to do with Snape, imo.

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And I think it’s not – he just didn’t need James and Harry on the picture because they had never been close to him. And yes, he didn't want to stare at the legs of his enemy. I certainly don't blame him for that. :)
But that misses my point; Snape had no right to the picture at all. He should not have touched it. He had no right to destroy it or take it - and he had no right to make a decision about who he wanted in it. It did not belong to him.

vivekgk September 23rd, 2008 5:05 pm

Re: Snape and Lily: Joint Character Analysis v.3
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Raelis (Post 5143412)
And? Sirius loved Harry, yet it didn’t occur to him that Harry might want to have a look at his mother’s picture and letter. I don’t get why such a big deal is made about Snape “stealing” the the items. I find it much more surprising that Sirius didn't give them to Harry, although it would not have presented any problems for him.

I don't think that Sirius was counting on dying when he did, so I figure he'd have given it to Harry in time. :lol:

Anyway, Snape had no business rummaging through Sirius's room in the first place. IMO, what he did was one step next to grave-robbery, same as Mundungus, with a bit of vandalism thrown in.

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Originally Posted by Raelis (Post 5143412)
I don’t say I believe differently, although I still think it is a bit of a stretch to assume that Snape regularly attacked James with none other than Sectumsempra. And if Snape did do it, that raises a whole lot of questions – for instance, could Dumbledore have been even more apathetic and uninterested in his students than I thought he was? I mean, Dark Magic used at school on a regular basis… This is something I just cannot wrap my mind around. :shrug:

There's the fact that Snape knows that Lupin is a werewolf. That might be why Dumbledore was not informed of any of it.

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Originally Posted by Raelis (Post 5143412)
*Shrug* Looks like we're gonna have to agree to disagree once more. By this line of reasoning James was bullying Sirius because even after finding out that Sirius’s whole family was in Slytherin, he continued expressing distaste and disdain for members of this House, thus placing all Sirius’s family members, including the ones Sirius liked, beneath himself. Hagrid was also a bully, he used the word “squib” as an insult when he was referring to Filch – he was mocking the circumstances over which Filch had no control and ended up humiliating all squibs altogether. Practically every character in HP is a bully if name calling and generalization are considered bullying. :rolleyes:

Again, "[Insert name here] did it too!!" is not really a reason, excuse or an explanation for Snape's behaviour. In James' case, he didn't say a word against Slytherins after he knew that Sirius's family went there. So, I don't see where you get that James continued to express disdain for Slytherin. In Hagrid's case, well, he's certainly not the model teacher, but his heart's in the right place. That sort of compensates for what he says to Filch, IMO. There are levels to everything, and it's pretty clear that Snape calling Lily's friends mudbloods was not just a one-time slip of the tongue or a provoked response. Neither Hagrid nor James joined a cult to eradicate mudbloods.

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Originally Posted by Raelis (Post 5143412)
If Remus immediately believed that Sirius was to blame for the Potters’ deaths and apparently never tried to get in contact with him to find out the truth, that means their relationship had already been peculiar, so to me it makes sense.

It does not seem that Remus got the opportunity to do so. Sirius was quickly sent to Azkaban without a trial, and Dumbledore testified that he was the secret keeper. Lupin trusted Dumbledore.

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Originally Posted by Raelis (Post 5143412)
Why wouldn’t they? If Snape used such spells often on the Marauders, he was extremely dangerous.

Um, they used to hang out with a werewolf at full moon. Next to that, Snape doesn't seem that dangerous, I guess.

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Originally Posted by Raelis (Post 5143412)
We don’t know enough about young Snape to make assumptions about his morals or lack thereof. Everything that can be said on this subject can only be speculation. You can believe that Snape joined the DE because he was innately evil and rotten at his core from his very birth, I choose to believe differently – nothing is said in the books about his real reasons, and even JKR herself is inconsistent when it comes to explaining Snape’s motives. First she says he was blinded by his attraction to the Dark Side, then she says he was extremely vulnerable and insecure and wanted to belong.

I don't see how the two have to be mutually exclusive. There's no reason why he should not have been blinded by the dark side, and wanted to belong, after all. He was interested in the Dark Arts, and the DEs welcomed him with open arms for his talents. IMO, He felt that he belonged there because he was appreciated for what he liked to do - mess around with the Dark Arts. This was a cult that would really appreciate a horribly mutilating curse without condemning him for creating it, after all.

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Originally Posted by Raelis (Post 5143412)
Gee, if this is so, than James’s arrogance was even worse than I thought.

Yeah, it is, isn't it? I never said that it was a good thing, or a clever thing. :lol: But I think that it was more due to Lily's presence preventing him from thinking straight, rather than outright arrogance. I'll explain this in more detail later.

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Originally Posted by Raelis (Post 5143412)
I already explained it in my previous post – I don’t like when Snape is singled out as the only one who didn’t understand Lily completely and was unconcerned when it came to her feelings and thoughts, and this is why I mentioned James.

But why? Did anyone say that James understood Lily completely? I do think that he understood Lily a little bit better than Snape, because James and Lily were alike in many ways.

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Originally Posted by Raelis (Post 5143412)
Canon evidence for this, please. :)

I need canon evidence to think? :err: That is just my opinion of Snape's character. I don't think that he'd have simply given up after Lily said that the friendship was over. They've quarelled before, and it's likely that Snape thought that he could convince Lily this time too.

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Originally Posted by Raelis (Post 5143412)
Still no canon that he actually participated in the bullying. His pals did, he didn’t. In this respect he wasn’t any different from Remus Lupin who also supported the bullying of his mates. As for students “enjoying” Snape being tormented, that does no necessarily mean that there were reasons for them doing so. Children/teenagers often like watching underdogs being picked on by the popular crowd. It’s a fact. It can be observed at any school in any part of the world. And Snape was a “loser” material from birth – poor, unattractive, extremely introverted. I think he was bound to be the victim of bullying, no matter what school he attended.

I think that it would depend on the nature of the victim as well. It's said that Snape was unpopular, that he liked the Dark Arts, that he used to hang out with bullies, and that he openly supported Voldemort. With the war on full-swing outside, it's evident that Hogwarts students would be affected too. So, it wouldn't surprise me at all, that Snape, a known DE sympathiser, being humiliated was entertaining to a lot of people. For many, it would be poetic justice.

Besides, Snape thought that what happened to Mary Macdonald was a bit of fun. If he thought that it was so much fun, why is it a stretch to say that he took part in it? He's shown to be a bully later in life, when he's supposedly grown up.

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Originally Posted by Raelis (Post 5143412)
Exactly the opposite – he cared about what Lily wanted. The fact that he he agreed to protect her son and did so for the rest of his life (although he could have easily just sent Dumbledore to hell and fled whenever he felt like it) is cast-iron evidence.

He didn't come to that conclusion by himself, so I can't agree with you on that. He said what Dumbledore told him Lily would have wanted, after Dumbledore poured salt on his wounds.

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Originally Posted by Raelis (Post 5143412)
If he merely wanted to absolve himself from his guilt, he could have just left at the end of book 1, after saving Harry's life and paying his debt. Yet he continued looking after the boy and exposing his own life to incredible danger.

What? Snape leave when he's just found out that the one who killed Lily is still alive? What about revenge?

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Originally Posted by Raelis (Post 5143412)
Well, we’re all entitled to seeing what we want to see in the books. I don’t see a single hint of mockery. I think he was too shocked to mock somebody.

I think that it depends on how he said Lily Potter, IMO. I felt that he said it with a lot of emphasis on Potter, sort of spitting out the word.

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Originally Posted by Raelis (Post 5143412)
We all know to what extent can Sectumsempra be used and kind of injuries it can inflict. There’s nothing in the books suggesting that James’s life was ever endangered by Snape’s hexing. I still can't remember where it is mentioned in the books that Snape attacked James with lethal force.

Just because James was not hurt does not mean that he was never in danger. By that reckoning, Snape must not have been in any danger at all until just before his death, because he was never discovered as a spy by Voldemort. :lol:

We're shown that Snape's hex misses James and cuts a gash on his cheek in SWM. What if Sirius hadn't shouted out?

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Originally Posted by Raelis (Post 5143412)
How does that excuse him? What business was it of his?

Perhaps, James thought that someone like Snape wanting to join the Dark Lord was something he should be concerned about, even without adding in his concern for Lily's safety. You're right that it was not his business at all. But then, that was who James was, IMO. He had no business taking sides against Voldemort, when Voldemort had done nothing to him. Yet, he dedicated his life to fighting for the Order, not even pursuing a career. If that makes him arrogant, so be it.

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Originally Posted by Raelis (Post 5143412)
Again, if James really thought so, his arrogance was astounding. Who gave him the right to show Lily what was right and what was wrong? Not to mention that Lily repeatedly expressed her displeasure with James’s ways of “having fun”.

I'm not saying that James could do no wrong, or agreeing with his methods. Just trying to put myself in his shoes to figure out what he was thinking. And I concluded that he wasn't really. Thinking, that is. :p

I'm just saying, it's possible that James was just looking out for someone he really cared about. And, that his reasons were understandable. I mean, the Snape he knows is an oddball who'e up to his eyes in the Dark Arts, hanging out with people like Avery and Mulciber, calling muggleborns mudblood, and aspiring to join Voldemort and cleanse the world of people like Lily. James has no reason to believe that Snape has a good side, or that there must be something good in him. For all he knows, Snape is keeping Lily trapped with Dark Magic. To him, it might seem like an act of kindness to expose to Lily the kind of person that Snape really is.

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Originally Posted by Raelis (Post 5143412)
My English is far from perfect. What verb should be used to describe the situation “I’ll stop doing this only if you give me something in return”?

Not Blackmail! :lol: Bribery, maybe. Or, more accurately, asking for a bribe.

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Originally Posted by Raelis (Post 5143412)
That's what was implied. "If you go out with me, I won't touch him. If you don't go out with me..." I think James's meaning was pretty clear.

I don't recall that being said or implied. To me, it seemed like James said it half-joking, half-flirting, and not as a serious offer. I don't think that he expected Lily to take him up on that, really. I think that Lily saw it that way too, because of her reply. It didn't seem that she was scared for Snape's life or anything. Lily didn't think that James had to be bribed into letting go of Snape, she seemed confident enough that he'd listen to her.

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Originally Posted by Raelis (Post 5143412)
I didn’t get the impression that he was informing her of James’s intentions, I felt he was simply pointing out the fact and in a way admitting that it was bothering him. I saw it more as Snape reluctantly confessing his own feelings for Lily.

I don't think so. Snape felt that it was something that needed to be pointed out. That wouldn't be the case if James was actively pursuing Lily. But it is sort of ironic that Snape might have made Lily realize why James was being a toerag around her.

Serpentine September 24th, 2008 10:39 pm

Re: Snape and Lily: Joint Character Analysis v.3
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by vivekgk
I'm just saying, it's possible that James was just looking out for someone he really cared about. And, that his reasons were understandable. I mean, the Snape he knows is an oddball who'e up to his eyes in the Dark Arts, hanging out with people like Avery and Mulciber, calling muggleborns mudblood, and aspiring to join Voldemort and cleanse the world of people like Lily. James has no reason to believe that Snape has a good side, or that there must be something good in him. For all he knows, Snape is keeping Lily trapped with Dark Magic. To him, it might seem like an act of kindness to expose to Lily the kind of person that Snape really is.

Just to point out one detail: in the SWM scene itīs never mentioned by either James or Sirius that Snapeīs supposed fascination with Dark Arts (or even "open support" of Voldemort, or plans to become a DE) were a reason for their behaviour. Lily explicitly asks James why heīs doing that, and all he comes up with is the infamous "because he exists" line.

The explanation that a) James hated the Dark Arts and b) Snape was the "oddball up to his eyeballs into them" is volunteered by Sirius and Lupin way after the fact - mainly in OotP, but in part also in GoF. (Though personally I do find it interesting that in the latter, when asked by Harry, Sirius apparently didnīt think that Snape had actually become a DE... in spite of his opinion that young Snape was "up to his eyeballs into the Dark Arts".)

wickedwickedboy September 24th, 2008 10:59 pm

Re: Snape and Lily: Joint Character Analysis v.3
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Serpentine (Post 5145007)
The explanation that a) James hated the Dark Arts and b) Snape was the "oddball up to his eyeballs into them" is volunteered by Sirius and Lupin way after the fact - mainly in OotP, but in part also in GoF. (Though personally I do find it interesting that in the latter, when asked by Harry, Sirius apparently didnīt think that Snape had actually become a DE... in spite of his opinion that young Snape was "up to his eyeballs into the Dark Arts".)

I respect your view, but this information was not offered "way after the fact", but in the very next chapter of the same book (OOTP). Sirius indicated that was why James disliked Snape and it was understandable to Harry because it was the same fundamental reason he disliked Draco. Harry just didn't like the idea of his father having picked on people in general, as it moved against his preconcieved notions about him.

To be accurate, in GoF, Sirius stated that he'd been pretty certain Snape had become a Death Eater, based on how he was in his youth and who he hung around. But he was doubtful because he didn't believe that Dumbledore would have hired Snape if that had been the case. Later in OOTP, Sirius declared that he believed Snape was a loyal Death Eater, despite what Dumbledore thought - although he still had some doubt, imo. So once the truth that Snape had been a Death Eater was confirmed for him, it appears as though he returned to his original belief because he had no reason to know why Snape would have changed sides, imo. What is interesting is that, if Sirius had found out that Snape's change of loyalties was based on Snape's emotions for Lily, I am not sure he would have believed it.

Serpentine September 24th, 2008 11:45 pm

Re: Snape and Lily: Joint Character Analysis v.3
 
Quote:

I respect your view, but this information was not offered "way after the fact", but in the very next chapter of the same book (OOTP). Sirius indicated that was why James disliked Snape and it was understandable to Harry because it was the same fundamental reason he disliked Draco. Harry just didn't like the idea of his father having picked on people in general, as it moved against his preconcieved notions about him.
I should have been more precise, sorry. :) Yes, for us as readers itīs soon after in the very next chapter - however for the characters it is more than 15 years after SWM.

Also, I donīt recall Harryīs "fundamental reason" for disliking Draco had anything to do with Dark Arts (but I do agree with your point that Harry was unhappy with the impact of James in SWM on his preconceived notions of his father). The dislike between Hary and Draco sparked in book 1 - pre-Hogwarts, at Madam Malkins - seemed to me to be sparked by Dracoīs arrogance more than anything, though it did develop into more later on. Though there does seem to be a parallel to James, insofar as by the time young Snape and James first met on the train, the Dark Arts never seemed to be an issue either. :)

Drusilla September 25th, 2008 7:09 pm

Re: Snape and Lily: Joint Character Analysis v.3
 
Guys, please stick to discussing Snape and Lily, please? If we want to discuss James, Sirius, or Harry, we can do that in their respective character analysis threads, but try to stay on topic here.

Nympfadora13 October 4th, 2008 12:53 am

Re: Snape and Lily: Joint Character Analysis v.3
 
I think that Lily loved Severus, just like Severus loved her, but when he called her a mudblood, she did not still love him. I think that she should have forgiven him. She broke poor Severus's heart.

Nympfadora13 October 5th, 2008 5:15 am

Re: Snape and Lily: Joint Character Analysis v.3
 
How would their lives have been different if they had managed to save their friendship? Do you think they might have had a romantic future? A lifelong friendship?

If they had been able to save there friendship, I think that there future would be very romantic, because Severus loved her. They might have even got married, but if not there friendship would probably have lasted forever, if they had been able to keep it.

eliza101 October 5th, 2008 10:43 am

Re: Snape and Lily: Joint Character Analysis v.3
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Nympfadora13 (Post 5151583)
I think that Lily loved Severus, just like Severus loved her, but when he called her a mudblood, she did not still love him. I think that she should have forgiven him. She broke poor Severus's heart.

Poor Severus should not have called his friend a racist insult. If you truly love someone you do not call them by the worst insult around. You do not join the organisation that is aspousing their death, and you do not then insult their intelligence by saying that you are only sorry that you called them the name. Severus made many mistakes in his life and those mistakes led to his heart being broken.

The_Green_Woods October 5th, 2008 2:59 pm

Re: Snape and Lily: Joint Character Analysis v.3
 
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Originally Posted by Nympfadora13 (Post 5152200)
How would their lives have been different if they had managed to save their friendship?

I would like to think so. But I also think that the friendship could not be saved, because Lily had already chosen to end the friendship. It was not the friendship falling gradually apart, but a deliberate choice of Lily to end it. And Snape's choices of his future career and his Slytherin friends gave her a reason to do it sooner rather than later IMO.

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Do you think they might have had a romantic future? A lifelong friendship?
For them to have a romantic relationship, Lily needed not to fall in love with James. I think Lily's realtionship friendly or romantic or even a casually friendly lifelong relationship was sealed when she fell for James.

Nympfadora13 October 5th, 2008 6:26 pm

Re: Snape and Lily: Joint Character Analysis v.3
 
I think that if Lily never fell in love with James, he would not have fallen apart like Severus did. James's love for her started with a little crush, Severus's love for her started with friendship, but not a verry strong friendship, because of how fast Lily ended it.

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Poor Severus should not have called his friend a racist insult. If you truly love someone you do not call them by the worst insult around. You do not join the organisation that is aspousing their death, and you do not then insult their intelligence by saying that you are only sorry that you called them the name. Severus made many mistakes in his life and those mistakes led to his heart being broken.
Sev loved Lily, and he loved her a lot, he just acted without thinking because he was embarressed. I think that Lily shoud have forgiven him. But I do agree that there friendship would nat have been able to last after Lily fell in love with James.

PerfectDystopia October 5th, 2008 6:38 pm

Re: Snape and Lily: Joint Character Analysis v.3
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Nympfadora13 (Post 5152469)
I think that if Lily never fell in love with James, he would not have fallen apart like Severus did. I think that Severus loved Lily more than James could ever love her. James's love for her started with a little crush, Severus's love for her started with friendship, but not a verry strong friendship, because of how fast Lily ended it.

I am pretty sure that Snape had a crush on Lily while they were friends. And there's nothing to say while James did have a crush on Lily, he didn't also have a friendship with her latter on. I don't see how Snape's love is stronger than James' because Snape was friends with her first and crushed on her longer.

And that's where I think their problems began. Assuming Lily did love Snape romantically, she didn't love him to the extent that he loved her (or else she would have never broken up with him). It was a relationship of unequals, which only leads to a fallout.

Nympfadora13 October 5th, 2008 6:48 pm

Re: Snape and Lily: Joint Character Analysis v.3
 
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I am pretty sure that Snape had a crush on Lily while they were friends. And there's nothing to say while James did have a crush on Lily, he didn't also have a friendship with her latter on. I don't see how Snape's love is stronger than James' because Snape was friends with her first and crushed on her longer.
True, I just think that Lily and Sev are such a cute couple, but your right, even if Sev never called Lily a mudblood, they would not have got married, or even gotten very romantic togather, Lily probably never had a crush on Sev....

Poor Sev :sigh:

Beatifically October 5th, 2008 7:09 pm

Re: Snape and Lily: Joint Character Analysis v.3
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Nympfadora13 (Post 5151583)
I think that Lily loved Severus, just like Severus loved her, but when he called her a mudblood, she did not still love him. I think that she should have forgiven him. She broke poor Severus's heart.

I disagree. I don't think that she ever had romantic feelings like his for her.

Bloomsbury Web ChatJaclyn: Did lily ever have feelings back for snape
J.K. Rowling: Yes. She might even have grown to love him romantically (she certainly loved him as a friend) if he had not loved Dark Magic so much, and been drawn to such loathesome people and acts.


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Originally Posted by Nympfadora13 (Post 5152469)
I think that if Lily never fell in love with James, he would not have fallen apart like Severus did. I think that Severus loved Lily more than James could ever love her. James's love for her started with a little crush, Severus's love for her started with friendship, but not a verry strong friendship, because of how fast Lily ended it.

I disagree. The breach in their friendship was never based on James; it was based on Snape's fondness of the Dark Arts and his aspirations to become a Death Eater. They only would have become friends if Snape had not gone down the wrong path.

I don't understand what you mean that James loved Lily less. :huh: JKR has told us that their Patronuses match because they are the love of each other's lives. James also put down his life to save Lily and Harry - that's definite proof he loved her. Plenty of relationships start out as a crush, but that does not mean that their love is any less than relationships that start out as friendship. (And, as PerfectDystopia pointed out, they could have become friends before dating.)

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Sev loved Lily, and he loved her a lot, he just acted without thinking because he was embarressed. Lily shoud have forgiven him. But I do agree that there friendship would nat have been able to last after Lily fell in love with James.
I don't think the word "Mudblood" itself caused the friendship to end. That word was just a slap in Lily's face for it made her realize who Snape was becoming. It didn't matter that he didn't mean it because he was willing to call everyone else who was a Muggleborn that word.

Harry852 October 5th, 2008 7:34 pm

Re: Snape and Lily: Joint Character Analysis v.3
 
I think that, Lily and James have stronger love for each other than Lily and Severus will ever!

Nympfadora13 October 5th, 2008 8:51 pm

Re: Snape and Lily: Joint Character Analysis v.3
 
Quote:

I don't understand what you mean that James loved Lily less. JKR has told us that their Patronuses match because they are the love of each other's lives. James also put down his life to save Lily and Harry - that's definite proof he loved her. Plenty of relationships start out as a crush, but that does not mean that their love is any less than relationships that start out as friendship. (And, as PerfectDystopia pointed out, they could have become friends before dating.)
Listen, I know that James loved Lily, too, when I said I just ment, Seveus loved her longer, they met each other before hogwarts thats all. I guess that Lily and James could have been friends before they started dating.

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I don't think the word "Mudblood" itself caused the friendship to end. That word was just a slap in Lily's face for it made her realize who Snape was becoming. It didn't matter that he didn't mean it because he was willing to call everyone else who was a Muggleborn that word
Well, it dose make perfect sense that that made her end the friendship.

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I think that, Lily and James have stronger love for each other than Lily and Severus will ever!
Thats what everyone is saying, and I guess thats true, but Severus did love Lily a lot, even though she did not love him back.

arithmancer October 5th, 2008 9:03 pm

Re: Snape and Lily: Joint Character Analysis v.3
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Nympfadora13 (Post 5152538)
Thats what everyone is saying, and I guess thats true, but Severus did love Lily a lot, even though she did not love him back.

I agree with you, about Severus's love for Lily being something special. :D I just don't post on this thread too often. So no, not "everyone" is saying it. :tu:

PerfectDystopia October 5th, 2008 9:22 pm

Re: Snape and Lily: Joint Character Analysis v.3
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Nympfadora13 (Post 5152538)
Listen, I know that James loved Lily, too, when I said I just ment, Seveus loved her longer, they met each other before hogwarts thats all. I guess that Lily and James could have been friends before they started dating.

Why is it so special that Snape and Lily were friends before Hogwarts? All it seems to me is that was the only way a friendship could have happened between them, because I find it unlikely that they would become friends at Hogwarts if they didn't know each other previously.

wickedwickedboy October 5th, 2008 10:16 pm

Re: Snape and Lily: Joint Character Analysis v.3
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by zgirnius (Post 5152552)
I agree with you, about Severus's love for Lily being something special. :D I just don't post on this thread too often. So no, not "everyone" is saying it. :tu:

To me, Snape's love for Lily was very, very similar to Bella's love for Voldemort - in that regard I would agree they were singular - although I wouldn't call it special per se. I noticed this recently as I was reading through DH a bit for the election stuff. I saw the same type of blind fixation Bella had for Voldy in Snape for one who could and would never love him back - enduring throughout his life. Like Bella did for Voldy, Snape based his war efforts on his emotions for Lily for the most part, imo, claiming he'd do anything as Bella had. But neither were able to really keep that promise in a way that would have made the one they were pining for happy (Snape's mistreatment of Harry and Bella's failures for Voldemort). A distinction was that Voldemort was alive, but that was immaterial as he had no capacity to return Bella's love. I would opine Lily was a better point of focus because she was a good sider; but that too isn't a huge distinction because theoretically, if Lily had been a bad sider, Snape would have remained on that side to honor her death, imo. Bella was married, but that didn't stop her obsession with the dark lord and Lily was married, but that didn't stop Snape's either. The other thing I noticed was that both appeared to be very jealous of those who had managed to form closer relationships with the one they were emoting for (Bella angrily vying with Snape at Spinner's End; and Snape loathing James and Harry). I thought it was a pretty interesting consideration all in all.

RemusLupinFan October 5th, 2008 10:30 pm

Re: Snape and Lily: Joint Character Analysis v.3
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Nympfadora13 (Post 5152538)
Quote:

Originally Posted by Beatifically (Post 5152486)
I don't think the word "Mudblood" itself caused the friendship to end. That word was just a slap in Lily's face for it made her realize who Snape was becoming. It didn't matter that he didn't mean it because he was willing to call everyone else who was a Muggleborn that word.

Well, it dose make perfect sense that that made her end the friendship.

I think this was the final straw for Lily which might have catalyzed her decision to end the friendship, and I agree that it was the point where Lily couldn't deny any longer that Snape really was turning to the "dark side", if you will. Before this point, I don't think she was ready to admit it.
Quote:

Originally Posted by wickedwickedboy (Post 5152609)
I saw the same type of blind fixation Bella had for Voldy in Snape for one who could and would never love him back - enduring throughout his life.

That's an interesting comparison. I've always seen a bit of obsessiveness to Snape's love for Lily, though certainly not to the degree to which Bellatrix displays an obsession for Voldemort! She's way off the deep end in that department. ;)


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