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Moriath July 1st, 2008 8:52 pm

Snape and Lily: Joint Character Analysis v.3
 
Welcome to the third version of this thread! :wave:

For reference: the previous instalment.

Please remember to focus on how Snape's and Lily's relationship evolved and the impact that it had on both characters.

Study questions:

1. Why do you think Snape was so reluctant to approach Lily? Would he have been interested in her if she had not been magical?

2. Why did Lily accept Snape's friendship? Would she have been as friendly to him if he had not told her about the magical world?

3. What role did each of them play in the friendship? Do you think it was a friendship of equals?

4. How did Hogwarts effect the friendship? We see that up until fifth year they consider themselves to be "best friends", despite the house system. Do you think they both worked to maintain the friendship?

5. How did Gryffindor change Lily? How did Slytherin change Snape? Would each have changed in the same way if they had been sorted into another house? Would the friendship have changed as drastically if they were in the same house?

6. What was the death knoll for the friendship? Was it Snape's budding interest in the Dark Arts, the mudblood insult or something else?

7. Was there a different choice Snape could have made to save the friendship? Was there a different choice Lily could have made?

8. How would their lives have been different if they had managed to save their friendship? Do you think they might have had a romantic future? A lifelong friendship?

As you can see from the questions we want to focus this thread on the relationship as revealed by canon and how the characters were effected by it. Your personal reaction to the relationship is not on topic here, nor is a literary analysis of the relationship or a discussion of why JKR wrote things the way she did. Our hope is that re-focusing this on canon and on BOTH characters including Lily will allow a more pleasant discussion with fewer mod notes and thread closures.

Please read REVISED: Character Bashing/Worship: aka Shades of Gray , In-Thread Moderator Warnings , and How to have a pleasant conversation on any topic. before posting in this thread.

ignisia July 1st, 2008 11:00 pm

Re: Snape and Lily: Joint Character Analysis v.3
 
Grr, stupid radio buttons! :grumble: I agree with parts of a few of the options.

Yes, he just covered it up because he had no choice. I blame the sorting.

Perhaps "No choice" is a bit of an extreme way of putting it, since another choice did exist, but Severus would have been exercising far more trust in others than his upbringing and experiences would have realistically allowed.

Partly. He seemed to have been convinced that he was right and Lily wasn't.

I think he considered Lily's arguments unreasonable at times, and that allowed him his attempts to defend his own opinions. IMO, it would make him feel better to defend the views he was slowly adopting.

No, his (re)actions show that he did not listen to her. He was too busy being jealous of James.

James was definitely a factor. After Lily calls James "arrogant", Severus is a bit too happy to want to listen to the rest of what she had to say. I think that throughout that particular conversation, Lily's attraction to James was a major worry for Severus...perhaps far more than her dislike of Mulciber/Avery.


I think he did value her opinion, but their arguments about his Slytherin friends were not as big a deal to him as they were to Lily.
Lily was far more heated and on the offensive there, whereas Severus was more defensive. Even his accusations about the Marauders smacks of someone trying to defend his opinion. IMO, Lily was the one to approach him about Mulciber/Avery first in that scene.

The_Green_Woods July 2nd, 2008 7:50 am

Re: Snape and Lily: Joint Character Analysis v.3
 
I voted "I disagree with all options and will explain my opinion in a post"

My theory is Lily knew everything about Snape; (I think *made excuses for years* was just a figure of speech) and I also think she gave him no reason to think that she would go to the extent of breaking off their relationship. We argue with our friends; we have many points on which we differ and many points that we don;t like about them. But we don't break off our friendship for that IMO.

Snape was not a DE and so while he listened to Lily's strictures, I also think he never gave it much thought, because she knew what he was doing; even with Avery and Mulciber IMO.

So from his side, I think he was probably thinking of ways to convince Lily that joining Voldemort was not so bad IMO.

And I still think Lily broke off with him, because she fell in love with James, I feel that Snape knew that Lily was thinking of James differently; their arguments seem to concentrate as much on James as they did on Avery and Mulciber IMO.

Yoana July 2nd, 2008 8:18 am

Re: Snape and Lily: Joint Character Analysis v.3
 
I think Lily and Severus reached a point where they were drawn, by circumstances mainly, in my opinion, in opposite directions. Severus was fascinated by the possibility of finally finding own ground, and society to fit into and be somebody. I don't think that he could see, from that position, the things as Lily saw them from her viewpoint – which was practically opposite. They couldn't reach a point of communication at all, as I saw it. I dare believe that if war hadn't broken out and made what happened happen, Severus would've grown out of it, and Lily would've understood why he was fascinated by it in the first place. But when something as serious as Voldemort was involved, it’s hard not to see things in absolutives.

ComicBookWorm July 2nd, 2008 9:39 am

Re: Snape and Lily: Joint Character Analysis v.3
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by The_Green_Woods (Post 5074144)
My theory is Lily knew everything about Snape; (I think *made excuses for years* was just a figure of speech) and I also think she gave him no reason to think that she would go to the extent of breaking off their relationship. We argue with our friends; we have many points on which we differ and many points that we don;t like about them. But we don't break off our friendship for that IMO.

I think that "...made excuses for you for years" was a flat statement of what had been happening. That was the only canon we have about the problems in their relationship, and it seems to me that we were given that statement to show how long running and how deep the problems in their friendship were.
Quote:

Originally Posted by The_Green_Woods (Post 5074144)
I also think she gave him no reason to think that she would go to the extent of breaking off their relationship. We argue with our friends; we have many points on which we differ and many points that we don;t like about them. But we don't break off our friendship for that IMO.

We really don't know what she did or didn't tell him in that regard because we weren't shown every conversation they had over a five-year period. But if he valued her friendship, he should have wanted to please her. And certainly by the time they did have the SWM blowup, he had to have realized what bothered her.
Quote:

Originally Posted by The_Green_Woods (Post 5074144)
And I still think Lily broke off with him, because she fell in love with James, I feel that Snape knew that Lily was thinking of James differently; their arguments seem to concentrate as much on James as they did on Avery and Mulciber IMO.

IMO Lily broke it off with Snape because of the reasons she gave him, since that is the only canon we have, and it is rather definite. JKR also told us as much, and she never mentioned that Lily broke it off with Snape because Lily was in love in James. We saw two discussions/arguments over the same subject. Obviously it bothered her. Lily was angry with two boys that day: James and Snape. She told both of them what she expected of them. She didn't exactly flee Snape's arms for James's, since she was furious with both of them. However, James was clued in enough to reason what was needed to win Lily, and Snape wasn't (or he wasn't willing). I feel certain that had Snape heeded Lily's complaints, she would have resumed the friendship. Friends can have serious fights and make up. That doesn't mean that she would have started dating Snape, since she didn't view him as a love interest, but she would have resumed the friendship. James was still around and he finally matured enough for Lily to want to date him, but over a year passed before that was the case.

I feel that by claiming it was Lily's feelings for James that ended the friendship, it shifts the blame away from the serious mistakes that Snape did make. The tragedy of their friendship loses its resonance if Snape's mistakes are ignored. He made his own life a living hell due to his own mistakes and choices, that's what makes it a compelling storyline.

kittling July 2nd, 2008 11:14 am

Re: Snape and Lily: Joint Character Analysis v.3
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by ComicBookWorm (Post 5074172)
"I've made excuses for you for years" was a flat statement of what had been happening. That was the only canon we have about the problems in their relationship,

I would disagree that this is the only cannon we have about what was going wrong between Lily & Severus. TPT contains many scenes and as many of them focus on that particular relationship I feel we do other evidence about their relationship and the problems it faced. :)

Quote:

But if he valued her friendship, he should have wanted to please her.
:) I'm sorry but I have to say that I fell awkward about that statement to be honest. Surely one could make the same statement about Lily – had she valued their friendship she should have wanted to please him?

I guess that to some extent I agree that both statements contain truth but at the same time I also think that both are wrong. Yes when we value our friends we want them to be happy and we should consider their feelings. However at the same time we need to be true to ourselves and we should not rewrite ourselves simply to please another person. Imo it would have been wrong for either Lily or Severus to do so.

Quote:

Lily broke it off with Snape because of the reasons she gave him, since that is the only canon we have, and it is rather definite. JKR also told us as much, and she never mentioned that Lily broke it off with Snape because Lily was in love in James. We saw two discussions/arguments over the same subject. Obviously it bothered her. Lily was angry with two boys that day: James and Snape.
But she only flirted with one of them, which would seem to indicate that, for James at least, there was some hope. This to me makes a big difference in how she treated the two boys. While I want to be very clear that I am not making any comment on the behaviour of either Snape or James, nor am I condemning nor complementing Lily. I do think however that she did not treat both boys in the same manner. While it is true that she criticised and was angry with them both – she only flirted with one of them (and I believe JKR has confirmed that Lily’s behaviour was influenced by her attraction to James in that encounter). Thus I think that it is possible that both boys walked away with very different impressions of the state of play with Lily, although I’m sure the both knew she was angry with them. :)

Quote:

I feel certain that had Snape heeded Lily's complaints, she would have resumed the friendship. Friends can have serious fights and make up.
I thing you are right had Snape listened to Lily and acted on it the friendship probably would have been salvaged. I do however wonder if Severus understood that, his social skills as a child / teenager are not particularly good, so I do think he may have missed that point. :)

All in all when I read the first part of TPT I got the impression that Sev & Lily’s friendship worked much better when no one else is around! It seemed to me that they would be getting on ok until someone else turned up, or that things would be a bit rocky because someone else was abut but they picked up when that influence dissipated.

I also think it was made very clear tat they came from very different backgrounds. This imo really affects the way they act and perceive others reactions. I also have to say that when I read one line in James’s description I thought it was the foreshadowing of the death knell of any hope for Sev’s romantic aspirations.

Quote:

sight, black haired like Snape, but with that indefinable air of having been well cared for, even adored, that Snape so conspicuously lacked.
It just seemed to me that in that one line JKR draws out that Lily & James have something very important in common, that Lily & Sev don’t. it is these kinds of similarities that impact very strongly on the relationships we form and hold on to.

I thing in the most part Yoana’s post is closest to my way of viewing the situation and I like the way she has approached both characters with empathy and understanding and yet not judged either one. And I certainly would agree the outside circumstances had a massive impact and propelled the characters involved to look at the situation in terms of absolutes. It seems like an extension, in some ways, of the strained dynamic brought into their friendship from the start of a third party.

wickedwickedboy July 2nd, 2008 3:26 pm

Re: Snape and Lily: Joint Character Analysis v.3
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by ComicBookWorm : "I've made excuses for you for years" was a flat statement of what had been happening. That was the only canon we have about the problems in their relationship,
Quote:

Originally Posted by kittling (Post 5074194)
I would disagree that this is the only cannon we have about what was going wrong between Lily & Severus. TPT contains many scenes and as many of them focus on that particular relationship I feel we do other evidence about their relationship and the problems it faced. :)

I agree with both of these statements. I feel that there was canon that enlightened us about the some of the problems Lily and Snape faced in their friendship and the manner they addressed them; and also that the 'I've made excuses for years' is the only canon we have that shows these problems had been occurring for quite some time. :)

Quote:

:) I'm sorry but I have to say that I fell awkward about that statement to be honest. Surely one could make the same statement about Lily – had she valued their friendship she should have wanted to please him?
I would have to agree. I don't feel that either Snape or Lily should have set out to please the other. Lily was friendly with her housemates (the Marauders) and Snape was friendly with his (Mulciber and Avery). However, the distinction I feel was that Lily was merely generally friendly with them in the sense that she was friendly with all of her housemates and her tight circle of friends seemed to consist of girlfriends (if we assume that she was with them after OWLS). Whereas Snape's tight circle of friends included Mulciber and Avery, so their influence on Snape (from Lily's view) would be great. I think canon showed that Lily was not influenced by the Marauders into becoming a prankster or sneaking out for midnight outings; yet Snape's behavior did match that of his friends in some negative respects that Lily did not like and in my judgment, she blamed them for Snape's negative behavior.

This is why I feel when Lily discussed Mulciber and Avery, then Snape brought up James and his friends, Lily asked what they had to do with it. Because, they were not influencing her as Snape's friends were influencing him (from her view) and the analogy he was trying to draw was not the same.

But look how Lily handled that conversation. Instead of saying 'they are not my close circle of friends', she attempted to show that merely being friendly with them did not influence others to use dark magic which differed from the influence his friends were having on him. I feel that Lily did not wish to come right out and say that she felt Snape was being led around by the nose because I think she thought he would have become angry and hurt at her expressing that idea (he had no mind of his own).

From Snape's point of view, I feel he believed that Lily merely being friendly with the Marauders was the same as his being friendly with his friends. He did not take into consideration that the Marauders were not her close circle of friends because he felt she had a crush on James and that made the connection between Lily and that group just as prominent. But in reality, it didn't because Lily even with her crush, was unwilling to give the Marauders any quarter for their pranking (hexing for fun) or breaking the rules (sneaking out, etc.). So Lily's point that being friendly with them did not influence her to behave in a negative manner was missed by Snape whose focus remained on a different aspect in my opinion.

I feel that by the end of the conversation in memory number 5, Snape's focus had turned from comparisons to Lily's feelings for James and the entire "influence" point Lily was making was totally shoved by the wayside for him. Lily may have realized this and that caused her to put that idea to rest (you don't have to tell me, I know he's an arrogant toerag). Then Lily continued to try to press her point about influences, but to no avail, because once Snape was satisfied that she still thought little of James, the text said he stopped listening to the point she was trying to make altogether (the bit about his walking on air and not listening).

Quote:

But she only flirted with one of them, which would seem to indicate that, for James at least, there was some hope. This to me makes a big difference in how she treated the two boys. While I want to be very clear that I am not making any comment on the behaviour of either Snape or James, nor am I condemning nor complementing Lily. I do think however that she did not treat both boys in the same manner. While it is true that she criticised and was angry with them both – she only flirted with one of them (and I believe JKR has confirmed that Lily’s behaviour was influenced by her attraction to James in that encounter). Thus I think that it is possible that both boys walked away with very different impressions of the state of play with Lily, although I’m sure the both knew she was angry with them. :)
I agree, however, Lily only had a romantic interest in one of them, so that would be the one she filrted with. However, that is not to say she didn't have an interest in being friends with Snape as well. So while I agree she treated them distinctly, I feel she was treating them according to the feelings she had for each. Each boy had the opportunity to react to her in a way that would forward their particular relationship with her (James as a friend and romantically and Snape as a friend).

Another distinction I feel was that James was not behaving in a manner in which Lily felt she had to end her friendship with him (which was just norml friendliness at that point, imo). James behavior was such that Lily did not want to pursue her romantic feelings for him, but they could remain friends. Whereas Snape was behaving in a manner that made Lily wish to end her friendship with him. The difference here, I feel, was the dark interests of Snape and the fact that James had no dark interests.

I am talking about flat out dark curses/Voldemort/blood prejudice versus hexes-jinxes/anti-Voldemort/anti blood prejudice. Regardless if one considers hexes to have dark connotations (which is where this point usually goes), the fact remains that Lily would not have ended her friendship with Snape merely for his using his Jelly leg Jinx or the headgrowing hex. I feel It was the dark curses and the predilection to follow Voldemort that the group Snape was hanging around advocated in addition to their blood prejudice views which bothered her. This distinction is the one she was attempting to point out to Snape because this is the distinction that an entire friendship would turn on, dark v. light (from Lily's point of view).

Quote:

All in all when I read the first part of TPT I got the impression that Sev & Lily’s friendship worked much better when no one else is around! It seemed to me that they would be getting on ok until someone else turned up, or that things would be a bit rocky because someone else was abut but they picked up when that influence dissipated.
I agree. I feel that Snape acted distinct around Lily, not calling people Mudblood, discussing the good points of Voldemort, or the coolness of a new dark curse with her as he knew she would not advocate these things. I believe that Lily hoped that this was how Snape really was and not the person he appeared to be when he was with Mulciber and Avery. However, due to the circumstances they were in at Hogwarts, Snape would have a lot of opportunity to be around his friends, imo. For example, while eating, during classes, simple hanging out time, during Quidditch games, and other house related functions, etc. Lily was with her friends doing the same, imo, so I feel she would see the distinctions in Snape's character and hear of them from others if she did not see them, imo.

Quote:

I also think it was made very clear tat they came from very different backgrounds. This imo really affects the way they act and perceive others reactions. I also have to say that when I read one line in James’s description I thought it was the foreshadowing of the death knell of any hope for Sev’s romantic aspirations.

It just seemed to me that in that one line JKR draws out that Lily & James have something very important in common, that Lily & Sev don’t. it is these kinds of similarities that impact very strongly on the relationships we form and hold on to.
That is an interesting point. :) I am not certain that it holds true in all cases, but I would agree that it would be easier for two people from similar backgrounds to be friendly with one another in the end. But too, JKR was writing in light of her literary soulmate idea and she elected James and Lily to be soulmates, so their basic ideologies, viewpoints and outlook (as evolved overtime) would be similar from that point of view within the scope of this particular story, imo. I am not sure if that is what you were referring to when you said "JKR draws out..." but if so, I agree that was what she was attempting to show.

A contrast here is shown with Harry and Ron. Harry got to look "well cared for" because his parents had left him tons of gold. So he was able to buy nice new robes and supplies, but he had not been 'well cared for' by the Dursleys. On the other hand, Ron had been well cared for by his parents, but would not particularly look as if he had due to his shabby robes, and dirt on his face, etc., but that was merely because his family was poor and his parents had a ton of kids to look after and missed the dirt. :lol:.

So while appearances can be deceiving, in the case of James and Lily, I feel that the point is well taken, not just due to their background, but because of what JKR had in store for them as a couple. Whereas the same would be true for Lily and Snape due to what JKR had planned with respect to their friendship.

kittling July 2nd, 2008 5:12 pm

Re: Snape and Lily: Joint Character Analysis v.3
 
I take the phrase ‘with that indefinable air of having been well cared for, even adored,’ to be about something other that nice, good quality well kept clothes, to me that would be definable! :) To me it is about something else and its hard to explain with out just reiterating JKR’s line – which probably would not be very helpful of me :lol:

I believe, and there is both anecdotal & scientific grounding to the idea, that people are able to spot others with similar background; by this I am not simply referring to class, or financial status, or geographic links or religion – it also works for family experiences, such as divorced parents, bereavement from parents or siblings, neglectful childhoods, experiences of abuse, the sort of thing you just wouldn’t expect someone to be able to tell about you.

There is actually an experiment you can do that shows this in action, I‘ve been part of it and the results really surprised me. Simply get a room full of an even number of strangers (it mean otherwise cos someone will get left out :() and ask them to get into pairs without talking. Once everyone is in a pair they should see what they have in common. Then you repeat the exercise only this time you ask the pairs to join with another pair. Again once all the pairs have joined with another pair they should see what they have in common.

This is an experiment that is often run by lecturers in psychology, sociology & other allied disciplines with new classes, and repeatedly comes up with the same result. Al the pairs & then all the groups find they have a great deal in common and normally things something of the ‘surely someone can’t tell by looking at me’ variety.

This is what I meant; Lily & James both came from loving caring background, and I think this is also reflected in how they both seem to have an easy knack of making friends. Something Severus did not have (although your point about their basic ideologies, viewpoints and outlook also holds true and would be impacted by the things I am refering to!)

Quote:

Originally Posted by wickedwickedboy (Post 5074321)
Lily was friendly with her housemates (the Marauders) and Snape was friendly with his (Mulciber and Avery).

Ok I agree with much of your post but I feel compelled to say that Lily & the marauders weren’t friends until the 6th year the earliest. I in no way disagree that Lily had lots of friends in her house and I’m sure that she was at least civil to James & Sirius most of the time but I don’t think canon supports much more than that. It is possible that she got on with Remus – but this is the wrong thread for that :)
Obviously by sometime in the 7th year they were friends – she wouldn’t be going out with James otherwise. :lol:


Quote:

I agree, however, Lily only had a romantic interest in one of them, so that would be the one she filrted with. However, that is not to say she didn't have an interest in being friends with Snape as well.
I agree – I just think that anger + flirting is more encouraging that plain anger; also I’m really not sure Snape would see that there was hope of saving the friendship once apologising failed. I very much doubt he’s seen examples of friendships/ any relationships where able to contain such upheaval and survive (which I think is sad :upset:)

[quote] Another distinction I feel was that James was not behaving in a manner in which Lily felt she had to end her friendship with him (which was just normal friendliness at that point, imo). [quote]

Ok other than my previous comment about Lily & James not being friends at this point, I would also say that imo she found his behaviour in that scene despicable and she was very clear about it, she didn’t end the friendship (because there wasn’t one to end imo) but James changed & Snape didn’t.

Quote:

the fact remains that Lily would not have ended her friendship with Snape merely for his using his Jelly leg Jinx or the headgrowing hex. I feel It was the dark curses and the predilection to follow Voldemort that the group Snape was hanging around advocated in addition to their blood prejudice views which bothered her.
Well I think that his ‘predilection to follow Voldemort that the group Snape was hanging around advocated in addition to their blood prejudice views’ as you put it, was the problem. From my readings of the book I don’t remember Lily commenting on his use of curses (& I am sticking to your definition at this point – promise :)) as TGW has said before (at least I think it was her :hmm:) I am sure that if Lily had been aware of Snape using them surely she would have mentioned that as opposed to just mentioning what Mulciber & Avery were doing? I would have expected something along the lines of ‘Look at the influence their having on you! your using dark magic too Sev’ or at lest some mention of it but I can nothing of any mention by Lily of him using dark magic.

Mrs_D_Malfoy July 2nd, 2008 5:31 pm

Re: Snape and Lily: Joint Character Analysis v.3
 
i think he did take her seriously, but thought she was saying those things for a different reason. he might have thought she was just being over-protective or that she just didn't want him to have any fun. whatever it was he was stupid to not listen.

on a different subject, it kinda bugs me, (well, really i'm annoyed because i should have felt the same throughout the whole series, not go different directions) that after you go hating snape, then liking him in the end of PS/SS, then hating him, then about to kill him in HBP, you do a complete 180 and feel so bad for him in DH. i mean i was convinced (stupidly) that he was evil, then i felt awful in the end of DH when i learned that all he ever wanted was lily's love. and i know this sounds awful but i kinda wish she had gone with him. yea i know he decided to become a death eater, but he never forgot about her did he? he even turned against voldy to protect her. that shows he cared so deeply about her that he would risk his life protecting her, and her son. because of those acts he seems like he could actually be capable of loving very deeply. just some thought. i now love severus, even though he was really mean to harry, but then again i've always been on the "other side" in the books :evil::whistle::p

Nadia July 2nd, 2008 5:40 pm

Re: Snape and Lily: Joint Character Analysis v.3
 
Can we please focus on Snape - Lily, and leave James out of the thread? Thanks!

wickedwickedboy July 2nd, 2008 6:03 pm

Re: Snape and Lily: Joint Character Analysis v.3
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by kittling (Post 5074403)
I take the phrase ‘with that indefinable air of having been well cared for, even adored,’ to be about something other that nice, good quality well kept clothes, to me that would be definable! :) To me it is about something else and its hard to explain with out just reiterating JKR’s line – which probably would not be very helpful of me :lol:

I believe, and there is both anecdotal & scientific grounding to the idea, that people are able to spot others with similar background; by this I am not simply referring to class, or financial status, or geographic links or religion – it also works for family experiences, such as divorced parents, bereavement from parents or siblings, neglectful childhoods, experiences of abuse, the sort of thing you just wouldn’t expect someone to be able to tell about you.

There is actually an experiment you can do that shows this in action, I‘ve been part of it and the results really surprised me. Simply get a room full of an even number of strangers (it mean otherwise cos someone will get left out :() and ask them to get into pairs without talking. Once everyone is in a pair they should see what they have in common. Then you repeat the exercise only this time you ask the pairs to join with another pair. Again once all the pairs have joined with another pair they should see what they have in common.

This is an experiment that is often run by lecturers in psychology, sociology & other allied disciplines with new classes, and repeatedly comes up with the same result. Al the pairs & then all the groups find they have a great deal in common and normally things something of the ‘surely someone can’t tell by looking at me’ variety.

This is what I meant; Lily & James both came from loving caring background, and I think this is also reflected in how they both seem to have an easy knack of making friends. Something Severus did not have (although your point about their basic ideologies, viewpoints and outlook also holds true and would be impacted by the things I am refering to!)

I agree with this, there is one point I would question, but I will owl you about it since it includes James. :)

Quote:

Ok I agree with much of your post but I feel compelled to say that Lily & the marauders weren’t friends until the 6th year the earliest. I in no way disagree that Lily had lots of friends in her house and I’m sure that she was at least civil to James & Sirius most of the time but I don’t think canon supports much more than that. It is possible that she got on with Remus – but this is the wrong thread for that :) Obviously by sometime in the 7th year they were friends – she wouldn’t be going out with James otherwise. :lol:
I'll include my response to this in the owl as well. :)

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I agree – I just think that anger + flirting is more encouraging that plain anger; also I’m really not sure Snape would see that there was hope of saving the friendship once apologising failed. I very much doubt he’s seen examples of friendships/ any relationships where able to contain such upheaval and survive (which I think is sad :upset:)
But that was the point I was trying to make. I believe there was no hope of salvaging the friendship at that point because there was only anger as you pointed out. I agree with you that there would have been anger + some kind of friendly gesture if Lily had been thinking of Snape in terms of continuing their friendship. I believe there was not because the issues Lily had with Snape were so fundamentally important to Lily, the entire friendship turned on those issues. In my judgment, that was not the case with her anger + flirting response. (I'll go into this more in my owl. :)).

Quote:

Ok other than my previous comment about Lily & James not being friends at this point, I would also say that imo she found his behaviour in that scene despicable and she was very clear about it, she didn’t end the friendship (because there wasn’t one to end imo) but James changed & Snape didn’t.
My response will have to go in the owl here too. :lol:.

Quote:

Well I think that his ‘predilection to follow Voldemort that the group Snape was hanging around advocated in addition to their blood prejudice views’ as you put it, was the problem. From my readings of the book I don’t remember Lily commenting on his use of curses (& I am sticking to your definition at this point – promise :)) as TGW has said before (at least I think it was her :hmm:) I am sure that if Lily had been aware of Snape using them surely she would have mentioned that as opposed to just mentioning what Mulciber & Avery were doing? I would have expected something along the lines of ‘Look at the influence their having on you! your using dark magic too Sev’ or at lest some mention of it but I can nothing of any mention by Lily of him using dark magic.
I respect your view, but Lily didn't bring up anything directly that Snape had done, imo. I feel she spoke only in terms of Snape's friends having a bad influence on him. The only reason I feel that she openly spoke about his calling other people Mudblood was because he had done it to her and she was pointing out that she saw herself the same as others, not distinctive in the way Snape appeared to be looking at it. Lily also said, 'you've chosen your path and I've chosen mine'. I feel that is in essence indicating that his view on things is totally different than hers and she was basing that on the things she knew he was doing and saying when he was not around her. I believe that in their previous conversations she had stuck to speaking in terms of the influence of his friends because she was trying to convince herself that he behaved and spoke as he did when he was not around her do to their influence. That is why I feel she said "I can't pretend any more", meaning it was not just the influence of Snape's friends that was making him do and say things, but now she understood that he was behaving and speaking as he did when he was not with her because that was also a part of his true persona (his beliefs, viewpoint and outlook.) That is why I feel she concluded with accusing him of planning to join Voldemort like all of his friends, not under their influence, but of his own accord (although I feel she realized they would all influence one another to some degree).

ComicBookWorm July 2nd, 2008 7:34 pm

Re: Snape and Lily: Joint Character Analysis v.3
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by kittling (Post 5074194)
TPT contains many scenes and as many of them focus on that particular relationship I feel we do other evidence about their relationship and the problems it faced.

Well, there are certainly several other scenes that hint at problems. In fact all of their interactions, even from the first, seemed strained. But those two scenes expressed it directly.
Quote:

Originally Posted by kittling (Post 5074194)
I'm sorry but I have to say that I fell awkward about that statement to be honest. Surely one could make the same statement about Lily – had she valued their friendship she should have wanted to please him?

But she wasn't the one drifting down a dark road. For Lily to please Snape she would have had to approve of the Dark Arts, his bigoted outlook, DE friends, and aspirations to join Voldemort, all of which ran counter to her core values. I had a boyfriend (that I was in love with) who became more and more involved with drugs and the drug culture. I had a choice to follow him down the drain or move on when I couldn't keep him from going down his dark path. I had been trying for several years to keep him from his self-destructive trajectory, but as it started to pull me in after him, I had to save myself.

At some point, there is no pleasing or stopping someone bent on a destructive course. That's what Lily faced.

Quote:

Originally Posted by kittling (Post 5074194)
I do think however that she did not treat both boys in the same manner. While it is true that she criticised and was angry with them both – she only flirted with one of them (and I believe JKR has confirmed that Lily’s behaviour was influenced by her attraction to James in that encounter). Thus I think that it is possible that both boys walked away with very different impressions of the state of play with Lily, although I’m sure the both knew she was angry with them.

She definitely wasn't going to be flirting with Snape since she never viewed him as a love interest. But she didn't date James for over a year after SWM, so she hardly gave him much encouragement. She told him she'd rather date the giant squid.

DeathlyH July 2nd, 2008 9:03 pm

Re: Snape and Lily: Joint Character Analysis v.3
 
I voted that Snape's (re)actions show that he did not listen to her. He was too busy being jealous of James. There's just no way that he could have thought she liked it, unless he mysteriously went deaf whenever she talked to him. How could he still think she liked the people he was hanging out with when she told him flat-out she didn't? IMO it was entirely Snape's fault for bringing around the end of their friendship. It was Lily's fault for actually ending it, but she had no choice. Snape made her end it.

RemusLupinFan July 3rd, 2008 12:07 am

Re: Snape and Lily: Joint Character Analysis v.3
 
Overall I think Snape didn't heed Lily's concerns about his friends and about his involvement with the Dark Arts. In light of the fact that Snape desired to become a Death Eater to impress Lily, I tend to believe this was because Snape was in denial and managed to convince himself subconsciously that Lily would be ok with him becoming a Death Eater. I'm not sure he misjudged Lily's character so much as made himself believe that she wouldn't cut ties with him for continuing to pursue the Dark Arts.

AliceLongbottom July 3rd, 2008 3:08 am

Re: Snape and Lily: Joint Character Analysis v.3
 
I agree with all of these partially...

Yes, he just covered it up because he had no choice. I blame the sorting.
I think that he covered it up because he didn't want to not have any friends besides Lily. He was already lonely, and I think being a part of a group made him feel better about himself.
Partly. He seemed to have been convinced that he was right and Lily wasn't.
Okay....well...I don't agree with that one.....
No, his (re)actions show that he did not listen to her. He was too busy being jealous of James.
I think he was concerned about James, and that was one of his main reasons, but I still think that he took her concerns somewhat seriously...I mean...it was obvious he cared about her opinion just a little bit.....
He became a Death Eater to impress Lily, which shows that he misjudged her character severely.
I don't think he became a Death Eater to impress Lily. I think that he wanted to show her that he was important in some way, and that being a part of that group would impress her, which shows that he did misjudge her character, but I think he was just really worried about trying to impress and didn't realize until after he joined that she wouldn't approve of it, and by then I don't think he could really get out of it.

Beatifically July 3rd, 2008 3:11 am

Re: Snape and Lily: Joint Character Analysis v.3
 
I couldn't really decide which to pick. I think that "No, his (re)actions show that he did not listen to her. He was too busy being jealous of James" and "He became a Death Eater to impress Lily, which shows that he misjudged her character severely" are both accurate. I ended up choosing the latter, though. Often boys tend to try to impress someone they have romantic feelings for (from what I've observed, anyway). It is normal in that sense, but it is strange that someone would think that way if this person was his "best friend." How well could he have understood her if he thought that being a Death Eater would impress her? :shrug:

Yoana July 3rd, 2008 10:27 am

Re: Snape and Lily: Joint Character Analysis v.3
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Beatifically (Post 5074889)
I couldn't really decide which to pick. I think that "No, his (re)actions show that he did not listen to her. He was too busy being jealous of James" and "He became a Death Eater to impress Lily, which shows that he misjudged her character severely" are both accurate. I ended up choosing the latter, though. Often boys tend to try to impress someone they have romantic feelings for (from what I've observed, anyway). It is normal in that sense, but it is strange that someone would think that way if this person was his "best friend." How well could he have understood her if he thought that being a Death Eater would impress her? :shrug:

I'm rather cautious with this, because the books say nothing about his motivation for becoming a Death Eater. Gaining standing and respect; and a society where he can feel important and needed does sound like a believable motive to me, given the description of his childhood and home, and the scene where he gets bullied in OotP. So if he really thought that Lily would be impressed, perhaps this was what he thought would impress her - or advance his chances - him finally being somebody. I think he needed that primarily for himself, so he could feel worthy of her and of her attention. Someone prominent and impressive, not the greasy oddball who gets humiliated in front of the whole school by the popular kids.

From this point of view, which I personally find believable, realistic, and consistent with young Snape as he is described in DH and OotP, it makes sense that he would have hoped joining the group of the day would make improve his chances with Lily.

wickedwickedboy July 3rd, 2008 3:34 pm

Re: Snape and Lily: Joint Character Analysis v.3
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Yoana (Post 5075150)
I'm rather cautious with this, because the books say nothing about his motivation for becoming a Death Eater. Gaining standing and respect; and a society where he can feel important and needed does sound like a believable motive to me, given the description of his childhood and home, and the scene where he gets bullied in OotP. So if he really thought that Lily would be impressed, perhaps this was what he thought would impress her - or advance his chances - him finally being somebody. I think he needed that primarily for himself, so he could feel worthy of her and of her attention. Someone prominent and impressive, not the greasy oddball who gets humiliated in front of the whole school by the popular kids.

From this point of view, which I personally find believable, realistic, and consistent with young Snape as he is described in DH and OotP, it makes sense that he would have hoped joining the group of the day would make improve his chances with Lily.

JKR said that as well, so I would agree that Snape was thinking of becoming someone powerful and impressive. However, I don't feel that alone addresses how or why Snape felt becoming a Death Eater would be worthy of Lily's attention when she was not an advocate of Voldemort, Death Eaters, Dark Magic or blood prejudice based on the canon (DH/TPT). In line with this thought is that Lily may have been dating in 4th and 5th year; wouldn't Snape have seen the type of guys that Lily was dating as a sign of the type of people she might find impressive? Based on canon, she would not have dated any of those showing propensities for the dark arts (i.e., she said she detested Mulciber). It would seem that could have been another clue for Snape as to the type of guys Lily liked. I even find it difficult to understand in light of JKR's statement that Snape didn't understand Lily's aversion for his friends serving as a reason in this regard.

In an analogy, Fred and George were aware that Hermione didn't like their hexing and jinxing, pills and powders used for fun on the students; and they may not have understood why Hermione could not see the funny side of it and enjoy it as they did. However, it would be difficult to imagine either one would feel that if they went on to prank the wizard world at large outside of the scope of Hogwarts that she would be impressed with them - even if they became famous for publicly pranking the Minister of Magic.

potter_maniac July 3rd, 2008 8:44 pm

Re: Snape and Lily: Joint Character Analysis v.3
 
BY THE WAY THIS IS ALL IMO WHETHER STATED OR NOT

2. Why did Lily accept Snape's friendship? Would she have been as friendly to him if he had not told her about the magical world?Lily was open to new people and was acceptive of everyone. It's how she was raised and it's how she intended to raise Harry IMO. She saw Snape as a potential friend, and as most kids would do she tried to get to know him and have a good relationship with him IMO. The fact that Snape told her about the magical world was an added bonus to her. For him it was a way of ensuring a friendship (IMO) but I think she would've tried to be friends with him even if he had neglected to tell her about the wizarding world.


4. How did Hogwarts effect the friendship? We see that up until fifth year they consider themselves to be "best friends", despite the house system. Do you think they both worked to maintain the friendship?
IMO, Hogwarts drove them apart. Lily embraced who she was and expressed her opinions freely. Snape tried to make friends with his Slytherin house, and in doing so became superficial. This difference made it hard to remain friends. Lily in essence provided an ultimatum. Either Snape change his ways or there was no friendship. Snape was the one trying to hold the relationship together. But because of his failure to abandon his cruel, prejudice ways (and his friends influencing him to do so), the relationship was, in the end, a failure.


5. How did Gryffindor change Lily? How did Slytherin change Snape? Would each have changed in the same way if they had been sorted into another house? Would the friendship have changed as drastically if they were in the same house?
Gryffindor influenced Lily to become a person of character. Snape wanted friends. In Slytherin, the population was prejudiced and cruel, so he was too in order to fit in. I think Lily would've been close to the person she was in Gryffindor if she was in Hufflepuff or Ravenclaw, but not Slytherin. Snape would've conformed no matter what house he was in, but, depending on what the people in that house were like, he would've been a better/worse person than he was in Slytherin. Being in the same house wouldn't have made a difference.


6. What was the death knoll for the friendship? Was it Snape's budding interest in the Dark Arts, the mudblood insult or something else?
The "death knoll" was really a long chain of events. As their personalities changed, they grew farther apart. Lily realized that Snape was turning into a bad person. She tried to change him, but after the mudblood comment she knew it was too late.

7. Was there a different choice Snape could have made to save the friendship? Was there a different choice Lily could have made?
I think in the end things happened the way the needed to happen. After the split in the relationship Snape tried to win Lily back, and that continued on with Harry and Snape's loyalties with Dumbledore. All in all things played out so that the story could continue on and thats what mattered in the end.

RebeccaMatthews July 3rd, 2008 9:42 pm

Re: Snape and Lily: Joint Character Analysis v.3
 
1. Why do you think Snape was so reluctant to approach Lily? Would he have been interested in her if she had not been magical?

I think he was reluctant to approach Lily because though they lived in the same area, were brought up differently. Lily came from a loving family with a sister and two parents that cared for her. Snape came from a family where his parents constantly fought.

As for him being interested in her - I think her being magical had a lot to do with it. IMO, she was a pretty girl who showed magical abilities, and it wasn't until after Snape knew she had them was it shown that he liked her.

2. Why did Lily accept Snape's friendship? Would she have been as friendly to him if he had not told her about the magical world?

Lily, IMO, would have been friends with Snape even if she hadn't told her about the magical world. I was always under the impression that she didn't know until she had gotten her letter, but The Prince's Tale said otherwise. She just knew a little sooner in TPT.

Lily, IMO, seems like a caring, friendly person. Unlike her sister, Lily wasn't turned off by how Snape first looked. She got to know him before she judged him. She was his friend, IMO, because she saw a nice guy, pre Hogwarts of course.

4. How did Hogwarts effect the friendship? We see that up until fifth year they consider themselves to be "best friends", despite the house system. Do you think they both worked to maintain the friendship?

Hogwarts did take its toll on their friendship, IMO. Both were in houses that had a long standing rivarly. Up to a point I think both worked on the friendship until Snape was really getting into the Dark Arts, and was really friendly with Avery and co. and Lily was friendly with James and co. Both started drifting apart.

5. How did Gryffindor change Lily? How did Slytherin change Snape? Would each have changed in the same way if they had been sorted into another house? Would the friendship have changed as drastically if they were in the same house?

I don't think Gryffidor changed Lily. She lived with people who thought along the same lines as she did, for the most part. She thought that going around calling people rude names and hexing people was wrong. Snape was greatly influenced by those he lived with. Snape was friends with future DE's, and didn't deny he wanted to be one. Both were on different sides when it came to LV. Had Snape been placed in a different house, their friendship might have lasted. Snape wouldn't have been hanging around people like Avery and Mulciber, he would have been around people that thought differently. IMO, had both been sorted into the same house, they would have stayed friends.

6. What was the death knoll for the friendship? Was it Snape's budding interest in the Dark Arts, the mudblood insult or something else?

IMO, it was the mudblood insult, him wanting to be a DE, his interest in the Dark Arts, and the people he was hanging out with.

8. How would their lives have been different if they had managed to save their friendship? Do you think they might have had a romantic future? A lifelong friendship?

If their friendship had been saved, LV would not have gotten wind of the prophecy
from Snape that lead the way to Lily's death. Snape wouldn't have felt guilty for her death, and had she lived, wouldn't have been so cruel to Harry.

Them having a romantic future is not something I see/saw possible. They were too very different people.

As for a lifelong friendship, it might have happened if James and Snape didn't hate each other with a passion.

random_musing July 8th, 2008 11:41 am

Re: Snape and Lily: Joint Character Analysis v.3
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by The_Green_Woods (Post 5074144)
And I still think Lily broke off with him, because she fell in love with James, I feel that Snape knew that Lily was thinking of James differently; their arguments seem to concentrate as much on James as they did on Avery and Mulciber IMO.

I don't think Lily knew she was in love with James yet but it is clear that Severus was weary of James' ongoing attempts to date Lily. I think Snape knew James as a threat to their friendship which was already slowly deteriorating. And just as Sev saw James as a bigger threat, Lily saw Avery and Mulciber as a bigger threat and frankly it seems clear to me that she was right.

kittling July 8th, 2008 12:30 pm

Re: Snape and Lily: Joint Character Analysis v.3
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by random_musing (Post 5079498)
I don't think Lily knew she was in love with James yet but it is clear that Severus was weary of James' ongoing attempts to date Lily. I think Snape knew James as a threat to their friendship which was already slowly deteriorating. And just as Sev saw James as a bigger threat, Lily saw Avery and Mulciber as a bigger threat and frankly it seems clear to me that she was right.

Quote:

Originally Posted by random_musing (Post 5079498)
I don't think Lily knew she was in love with James yet but it is clear that Severus was weary of James' ongoing attempts to date Lily. I think Snape knew James as a threat to their friendship which was already slowly deteriorating. And just as Sev saw James as a bigger threat, Lily saw Avery and Mulciber as a bigger threat and frankly it seems clear to me that she was right.

:) I like what you said about Snape knew James as the threat to their friendship, & that Lily saw Avery and Mulciber as the threat and I think your right about that.

But I don’t think it is possible to say that either one was right in thinking their point was the right one. If Sev had given up his friendship with Avery and Mulciber but Lily had continued along the path she was on with James – I think it very likely that the friendship would not have survived. I also think the reverse is true had Lily changes things with James and Sev continued with his friendships with Avery and Mulciber I doubt the friendship would have survived.

Both were threats to the friendship and imo equally so, and both would have to have been addressed if the friendship was to flourish.

Pearl_Took July 8th, 2008 12:32 pm

Re: Snape and Lily: Joint Character Analysis v.3
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by random_musing (Post 5079498)
I don't think Lily knew she was in love with James yet but it is clear that Severus was weary of James' ongoing attempts to date Lily. I think Snape knew James as a threat to their friendship which was already slowly deteriorating. And just as Sev saw James as a bigger threat, Lily saw Avery and Mulciber as a bigger threat and frankly it seems clear to me that she was right.

Excellently put. :tu:

I do not think we can discount Lily's very real, and very serious, concerns about Sev's involvement with people who later would become Death Eaters and who had a vested interest in persecuting people like her. I think it is very clear, from the way Rowling writes it, that this was a big factor in Lily ending her friendship with Severus, irrespective of her feelings about James, and that it had been a problem for some time ... as her final speech to Sev shows.

1. Why do you think Snape was so reluctant to approach Lily? Would he have been interested in her if she had not been magical?

- I doubt it. JKR seems to present him as a lonely and possibly neglected child. :( He was fascinated by Lily because she was another magical child and that was why he was desperate to make friends with her.

2. Why did Lily accept Snape's friendship? Would she have been as friendly to him if he had not told her about the magical world?

- Possibly not, although she seems to be a kind little girl. She was deeply intrigued by what he told her about her own magic.

3. What role did each of them play in the friendship? Do you think it was a friendship of equals?

- I would like to think so, but Rowling doesn't really write it that way: the friendship seems to have a lot of strain in it, even from the get-go. It's touching to see their innocent interaction as children but even at that age little Sev has clearly imbibed some anti-Muggle prejudice from ... somewhere. He tries to hide it from Lily because he likes her so much but it's the constant dark undercurrent in their relationship. :sigh:

4. How did Hogwarts effect the friendship? We see that up until fifth year they consider themselves to be "best friends", despite the house system. Do you think they both worked to maintain the friendship?

- They must have done. Lily seems to have had great affection for Severus, otherwise why would she have remained friends with him for so long? For his part, he seems to be quite in love with her, despite the anti-Muggle prejudices of his own pals in Slytherin.

5. How did Gryffindor change Lily? How did Slytherin change Snape? Would each have changed in the same way if they had been sorted into another house? Would the friendship have changed as drastically if they were in the same house?

- Intriguing to ponder. Sev is such a natural Slytherin it's impossible to imagine him Sorted anywhere else. :p Whereas Lily has her supportive friends in Gryffindor, he only has his dodgy friends in Slytherin and the dubious patronage of Lucius Malfoy, and is being sucked into a terrible movement.

6. What was the death knoll for the friendship? Was it Snape's budding interest in the Dark Arts, the mudblood insult or something else?

- The anti-Muggle prejudice was a problem even before his DE ambitions, IMO.

7. Was there a different choice Snape could have made to save the friendship? Was there a different choice Lily could have made?

- Severus should have listened to Lily earlier and also given up on his obsession with the Marauders (which so annoyed her).
- As for Lily, her final break up with him is pretty brutal, but she seems completely at the end of her tether. The Mudblood insult was the last straw.

8. How would their lives have been different if they had managed to save their friendship? Do you think they might have had a romantic future? A lifelong friendship?

- Rowling doesn't give us enough to go on here, IMO. Severus seems tongue-tied and nervous around Lily very often, revealing that he is the one who is in love and in a way has more to lose than she has.

The_Green_Woods July 8th, 2008 1:06 pm

Re: Snape and Lily: Joint Character Analysis v.3
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by random_musing (Post 5079498)
I don't think Lily knew she was in love with James yet but it is clear that Severus was weary of James' ongoing attempts to date Lily. I think Snape knew James as a threat to their friendship which was already slowly deteriorating. And just as Sev saw James as a bigger threat, Lily saw Avery and Mulciber as a bigger threat and frankly it seems clear to me that she was right.

I think Lily did have a deep attraction which I do think was love; but I also think she fought it hard (that's why IMO she did not go out with James as soon as she broke off with Snape; it took her more than a year and a half or so).

I think kittling made an excellent point about threats on both sides and I agree with her. Because I think Lily would not have been able to give up James and I don't think Snape would have agreed to that and they would have split anyway (assuming Snape turned away from Avery and Co). If Snape was with Avery and Co then Lily would have broken off with him IMO.

I think Lily was in love with James and she used the SWM and her possibly growing concerns to break off with Snape telling him that she knew he would surely become a DE (not the exact words) IMO.

Lily was correct IMO because Snape had no one to guide him, and having lost one thing very near to him, he probably did not want to loose the other too. I am not blaming Lily for breaking off with Snape, I am only trying say why he proved Lily's words right.

Pearl_Took July 8th, 2008 2:04 pm

Re: Snape and Lily: Joint Character Analysis v.3
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by The_Green_Woods (Post 5079524)
I think Lily did have a deep attraction which I do think was love;

I would query it was love at the age of 15. :) She seems to have fancied James, but that's not love. Later on, of course, it did become love.

Quote:

I think kittling made an excellent point about threats on both sides and I agree with her. Because I think Lily would not have been able to give up James and I don't think Snape would have agreed to that and they would have split anyway (assuming Snape turned away from Avery and Co). If Snape was with Avery and Co then Lily would have broken off with him IMO.
Yes, the James factor would have split the Lily/Sev friendship up eventually. That's undeniable. But I cannot agree that Lily broke off with Severus primarily because she fancied James. That is not what canon shows us, IMO. :) If that were true, Lily would be a very shallow person indeed :( and I don't think she is written that way. :cool:

Quote:

I think Lily was in love with James and she used the SWM and her possibly growing concerns to break off with Snape telling him that she knew he would surely become a DE (not the exact words) IMO.
Her concerns about Sev's DE interests and anti-Muggle feelings were not possibly growing concerns: they were real and genuine concerns, in my opinion, and I think that's how Rowling writes them. :cool:

ComicBookWorm July 8th, 2008 2:17 pm

Re: Snape and Lily: Joint Character Analysis v.3
 
Yeah, but the threat that Avery and Mulciber represented was very grave. They were Jr. DEs and they all became DEs, including Snape. James was only a potential love interest, not a potential member of a group of bloodthirsty killers.

Avery and Mulciber were only a threat to the friendship because of what they represented. And it wasn't just Avery and Mulciber that were the problem. Snape aspired to join Voldemort. Snape was espousing bigoted ideas. Snape was involved in the Dark Arts. There was a lot more wrong going on than a simple dislike of his friends.

wickedwickedboy July 8th, 2008 2:23 pm

Re: Snape and Lily: Joint Character Analysis v.3
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Pearl_Took (Post 5079554)
I would query it was love at the age of 15. :) She seems to have fancied James, but that's not love. Later on, of course, it did become love.

I agree, and I feel that applied to both James and Lily; however I could imagine that Snape felt that was more than enough. From the other side it was the same according to JKR. James knew Lily didn't fancy Snape, but he was molested by the belief that Snape fancied Lily (Bloomsbury Chat). Arguably it was worse for Snape in that regard because he (correctly) felt that Lily fancied James as well (DH TPT).

Quote:

Yes, the James factor would have split the Lily/Sev friendship up eventually. That's undeniable. But I cannot agree that Lily broke off with Severus primarily because she fancied James. That is not what canon shows us, IMO. :) If that were true, Lily would be a very shallow person indeed :( and I don't think she is written that way. :cool:
I am not positive about that outcome. I feel it may have caused dissention in both of Lily's friendships, but these things have a crazy way of working out at times in the most miraculous of ways. However, Snape would have had to of let go of his dark interests. I agree with you however that canon shows that James had nothing to do with Lily's primary reason for ending her friendship with Snape.

Quote:

Her concerns about Sev's DE interests and anti-Muggle feelings were not possibly growing concerns: they were real and genuine concerns, in my opinion, and I think that's how Rowling writes them. :cool:
I agree. :tu:

The_Green_Woods July 8th, 2008 2:33 pm

Re: Snape and Lily: Joint Character Analysis v.3
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Pearl_Took (Post 5079554)
I would query it was love at the age of 15. :) She seems to have fancied James, but that's not love. Later on, of course, it did become love.

I don't think it's impossible. Hermione loved Ron when she was about that age IMO (in my eyes at least); and in my country, people do fall in love at ages 15 and 16 (severely opposed by their parents though) and do make very successful marriages. :)

Pearl_Took July 8th, 2008 2:43 pm

Re: Snape and Lily: Joint Character Analysis v.3
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by The_Green_Woods (Post 5079573)
I don't think it's impossible. Hermione loved Ron when she was about that age IMO (in my eyes at least); and in my country, people do fall in love at ages 15 and 16 (severely opposed by their parents though) and do make very successful marriages. :)

Oh, I don't think it's impossible ... especially as JKR tends to marry off her principal characters at very young ages. :whistle:

But I don't get the impression from canon that 15 year old Lily Evans looked at 15 year old James Potter and said, 'a-ha! There's my soulmate for life!'

As I've said, I think the main reason for Lily breaking off with Snape was because of the direction his life was going in ... hooking in with a genocidal cult.

Vig July 8th, 2008 3:05 pm

Re: Snape and Lily: Joint Character Analysis v.3
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Pearl_Took (Post 5079580)
Oh, I don't think it's impossible ... especially as JKR tends to marry off her principal characters at very young ages. :whistle:

But I don't get the impression from canon that 15 year old Lily Evans looked at 15 year old James Potter and said, 'a-ha! There's my soulmate for life!'

As I've said, I think the main reason for Lily breaking off with Snape was because of the direction his life was going in ... hooking in with a genocidal cult.

My impression from the books and fanfictions (Which can be sometimes accurate in their presumptions) is that Lily didn't like James till she was in the sixth year (My guess is she started liking him after James saves Severus)..I agree with you when you say that Lily broke connection with Severus because he became a Death-Eater (Or hung out with guys/girls practising dark magic) and her friend Mary suffered because of it (That was the final straw, I think) :)

_LoonyLovegood_ July 8th, 2008 3:28 pm

Re: Snape and Lily: Joint Character Analysis v.3
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by vigneshnimbus (Post 5079595)
My impression from the books and fanfictions (Which can be sometimes accurate in their presumptions) is that Lily didn't like James till she was in the sixth year (My guess is she started liking him after James saves Severus)..I agree with you when you say that Lily broke connection with Severus because he became a Death-Eater (Or hung out with guys/girls practising dark magic) and her friend Mary suffered because of it (That was the final straw, I think) :)

Obviously we all have our own way of interpreting the scene, but I believe Lily had already begun to like James during Snape's Worst Memory. In my opinion, she was trying not to like him, because he was still an 'arrogant, bullying toerag,' but she couldn't help having feelings for him. You can tell that Lily had been watching James, the way she talks about him messing up his air and showing off with the snitch. Also, she only reprimands James, when Sirius had been bullying Snape as well. I think once James changed during sixth year, she then stopped trying to repress her feelings for him.

I agree with what you said were the reasons for ending the friendship. I think she friendship had been deteriorating for a long time, and SWM was the final straw; Lily could not make excuses for Severus any longer.

I voted for "No, his (re)actions show that he did not listen to her. He was too busy being jealous of James." In my opinion, it is evident in that scene in TPT that Severus' jealousy of James was more important to him than the feelings of someone who was supposed to be his best friend.

ignisia July 8th, 2008 3:57 pm

Re: Snape and Lily: Joint Character Analysis v.3
 
IMO, Lily's attraction to James began even earlier than SWM. In the scene where she and Severus are arguing about the Werewolf Incident, she seems to take James' side on that issue despite evidence to the contrary and implies that the Marauders are somehow better than Mulciber/Avery, despite the fact that their actions are very similar.

IMO, Lily wasn't the only one out of line there. Severus was being foolish and allowing his jealousy of James to distract him, as that is easier than noticing what is wrong with his friends' actions.
However his fear that James might come between them does, IMO, hold a lot of water. He is, on some level, one of the reasons for their argument. Lily wants him to own up to his mistakes, but Severus cannot do so when he sees Lily making similar ones.

(And note that I said "he sees Lily making mistakes". IMO, Severus thinks this. I'm not touching on my own opinion, because I know that will cause WW3...)

Pearl_Took July 8th, 2008 4:18 pm

Re: Snape and Lily: Joint Character Analysis v.3
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by ignisia (Post 5079620)
IMO, Lily's attraction to James began even earlier than SWM. In the scene where she and Severus are arguing about the Werewolf Incident, she seems to take James' side on that issue despite evidence to the contrary and implies that the Marauders are somehow better than Mulciber/Avery, despite the fact that their actions are very similar.

IMO, Lily wasn't the only one out of line there. Severus was being foolish and allowing his jealousy of James to distract him, as that is easier than noticing what is wrong with his friends' actions.
However his fear that James might come between them does, IMO, hold a lot of water. He is, on some level, one of the reasons for their argument. Lily wants him to own up to his mistakes, but Severus cannot do so when he sees Lily making similar ones.

You make some very good points there, Iggy, and I am sympathetic to a lot of them.

But while I don't condone the Marauders' stupidity in the werewolf incident, I still don't think we should lose sight of the fact of the seriousness of Lily's concerns about Mulciber/Avery's influence on Severus and the whole anti-Muggle thing. I do think that the worrisome anti-Muggle thing gets lost sometimes in this debate, i.e. how it impinged on Snape and Lily's friendship. It's a really important point that JKR tends to hammer home. :p

wickedwickedboy July 8th, 2008 5:33 pm

Re: Snape and Lily: Joint Character Analysis v.3
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Pearl_Took (Post 5079635)
But while I don't condone the Marauders' stupidity in the werewolf incident, I still don't think we should lose sight of the fact of the seriousness of Lily's concerns about Mulciber/Avery's influence on Severus and the whole anti-Muggle thing. I do think that the worrisome anti-Muggle thing gets lost sometimes in this debate, i.e. how it impinged on Snape and Lily's friendship. It's a really important point that JKR tends to hammer home. :p

I agree; however, I feel it was more than just the sentiment that had Lily concerned; it was the whole Death Eater ideology that went with the idea of blood superiority - supression and even death to Muggles and Muggleborns arising out of the disrespect shown by Mulcider in this instance. The use of dark magic (from Lily's perspective, harmful curses) against others went beyond mere anti-muggle sentiments to the idea of not doing that type of thing to anyone, imo.

Quote:

Originally Posted by ignisia (Post 5079620)
IMO, Lily's attraction to James began even earlier than SWM. In the scene where she and Severus are arguing about the Werewolf Incident, she seems to take James' side on that issue despite evidence to the contrary and implies that the Marauders are somehow better than Mulciber/Avery, despite the fact that their actions are very similar.

IMO, Lily wasn't the only one out of line there.

I respect your view, but I would disagree with the assertion that Lily was out of line. Her point was not that the Marauders were somehow better individuals for pranking people using light magic or delinquent magic - she was against that also as she pointed out to James in SWM. In my opinion, her point was that Dark Magic (harmful curses in her view) were wrong and in that light - and only that light - the activities of the Marauders were better and not comparable to the lengths that Snape's friends were going to in their antics against others. The action being similar (issuing a spell at someone) was completely beside the point, yet Snape was trying to make it the point - he was the one that brought the Marauders into the conversation (DH TPT). Lily was not thinking about James or the Marauders at all, but about Snape, but he appeared to be anxious to bring up the Marauders, specifically James and when you consider that the Marauders were not particular friends of Lily's at that time, it makes little sense for him to have done so, imo. Lily was likely friendly with them as she was all of her housemates, but she was not so friendly as to be influenced by them, imo, as she had not taken up pranking or hex wars to our knowledge as provided in canon.

eliza101 July 9th, 2008 8:05 am

Re: Snape and Lily: Joint Character Analysis v.3
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by ignisia (Post 5079620)
IMO, Lily's attraction to James began even earlier than SWM. In the scene where she and Severus are arguing about the Werewolf Incident, she seems to take James' side on that issue despite evidence to the contrary and implies that the Marauders are somehow better than Mulciber/Avery, despite the fact that their actions are very similar.

IMO, Lily wasn't the only one out of line there. Severus was being foolish and allowing his jealousy of James to distract him, as that is easier than noticing what is wrong with his friends' actions.
However his fear that James might come between them does, IMO, hold a lot of water. He is, on some level, one of the reasons for their argument. Lily wants him to own up to his mistakes, but Severus cannot do so when he sees Lily making similar ones.

(And note that I said "he sees Lily making mistakes". IMO, Severus thinks this. I'm not touching on my own opinion, because I know that will cause WW3...)


I thought as WWB says that they were talking about Avery and Mulciber and that Snape dragged the Maurauders into the conversation himself. IMO I thought he did it to deflect the conversation away from his friends and housemates to Lily's housemate and boys she was at the very least friendly with. As Lily said, what did they have to do with what she was talking about? She was talking to Snape about people she knew had done wrong and he started talking about a situation she could only surmise about. The werewolf incident had nothing to do with Avery and Mulciber and what they did to Mary.

Pearl_Took July 9th, 2008 9:17 am

Re: Snape and Lily: Joint Character Analysis v.3
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by wickedwickedboy (Post 5079711)
I agree; however, I feel it was more than just the sentiment that had Lily concerned; it was the whole Death Eater ideology that went with the idea of blood superiority - supression and even death to Muggles and Muggleborns arising out of the disrespect shown by Mulcider in this instance. The use of dark magic (from Lily's perspective, harmful curses) against others went beyond mere anti-muggle sentiments to the idea of not doing that type of thing to anyone, imo.

Sure, but I thought that was precisely the point I was making. :)

ignisia July 9th, 2008 3:06 pm

Re: Snape and Lily: Joint Character Analysis v.3
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Pearl_Took (Post 5079635)
But while I don't condone the Marauders' stupidity in the werewolf incident, I still don't think we should lose sight of the fact of the seriousness of Lily's concerns about Mulciber/Avery's influence on Severus and the whole anti-Muggle thing. I do think that the worrisome anti-Muggle thing gets lost sometimes in this debate, i.e. how it impinged on Snape and Lily's friendship. It's a really important point that JKR tends to hammer home. :p

Very true...
I don't, however, think it would have become too much of an issue if the war hadn't been brewing. Maybe a few arguments with Petunia here and there, but on the whole, the ideological difference we saw between the two as small children wasn't that profound, IMO, and Severus' ideas about Muggles could easily have been rectified over the subsequent years if he was frequently exposed to decent ones.

Unfortunately, a war was on, and the beliefs Snape developed as a child made him all the more susceptible to joining a group of kids who would later become DEs. I think those kids only made his prejudice worse. His uses of the word "Mudblood" would be far easier for Lily to spot than if Severus had just continued hating Muggles (since Muggle don't walk into Hogwarts that much...:whistle:). I can see how that would disturb her...although judging by their argument, I think she was more angry at him and wanted him to see reason rather than worrying about her own safety at that point.

And, as I said earlier, it was easier for Sev to mention where the Marauders were going wrong than to realize where he himself was going wrong. However, the fact is that wrongs were being committed by everyone, and the fact that Lily and Severus both chose only to see one type of wrong and ignore the other was both a huge threat to their friendship and......wrong.

Pearl_Took July 9th, 2008 3:22 pm

Re: Snape and Lily: Joint Character Analysis v.3
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by ignisia (Post 5080533)
Very true...
I don't, however, think it would have become too much of an issue if the war hadn't been brewing. Maybe a few arguments with Petunia here and there, but on the whole, the ideological difference we saw between the two as small children wasn't that profound, IMO, and Severus' ideas about Muggles could easily have been rectified over the subsequent years if he was frequently exposed to decent ones.

I think that is very true, Iggy, and I don't think I've seen this point raised before. Sometimes in these discussions I think it is assumed that Severus was prejudiced, end of story. Yes, as a child, he was. He had clearly inherited the anti-Muggle thing from ... somewhere (Rowling never specifies where, but children generally inherit prejudice from their parents and other parental figures). But people can overcome their prejudices. They can change. It is my opinion that in many ways he did, after Lily's death.

Quote:

Unfortunately, a war was on, and the beliefs Snape developed as a child made him all the more susceptible to joining a group of kids who would later become DEs. I think those kids only made his prejudice worse. His uses of the word "Mudblood" would be far easier for Lily to spot than if Severus had just continued hating Muggles (since Muggle don't walk into Hogwarts that much...:whistle:). I can see how that would disturb her...although judging by their argument, I think she was more angry at him and wanted him to see reason rather than worrying about her own safety at that point.
Again, I agree.

Quote:

And, as I said earlier, it was easier for Sev to mention where the Marauders were going wrong than to realize where he himself was going wrong. However, the fact is that wrongs were being committed by everyone, and the fact that Lily and Severus both chose only to see one type of wrong and ignore the other was both a huge threat to their friendship and......wrong.
It makes for a tragic ending to their friendship. :(

wickedwickedboy July 9th, 2008 4:15 pm

Re: Snape and Lily: Joint Character Analysis v.3
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by ignisia (Post 5080533)
Very true...
And, as I said earlier, it was easier for Sev to mention where the Marauders were going wrong than to realize where he himself was going wrong. However, the fact is that wrongs were being committed by everyone, and the fact that Lily and Severus both chose only to see one type of wrong and ignore the other was both a huge threat to their friendship and......wrong.

I would respectfully disagree. In my view, Lily didn't wish to share in Snape's prejudice against werewolves and his suspicions about Remus (which he wasn't supposed to be talking about at all, but brought up - POA). I do not feel that Lily was wrong to become aggravated and miffed at him over that topic. Nor, in my judgment, was Lily willing to share in Snape's wrongful view that there was no difference between dark and light magic. I fail to see where Lily was wrong in that conversation. I believe she had a right to express her view when Snape changed the topic to those points. Those were the only points Snape brought up in that regard.

eliza101 July 9th, 2008 7:28 pm

Re: Snape and Lily: Joint Character Analysis v.3
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by ignisia (Post 5080533)
And, as I said earlier, it was easier for Sev to mention where the Marauders were going wrong than to realize where he himself was going wrong. However, the fact is that wrongs were being committed by everyone, and the fact that Lily and Severus both chose only to see one type of wrong and ignore the other was both a huge threat to their friendship and......wrong.

I could concede your point except for one thing, their conversation was not about the Maurauders. Snape brought them up IMO to deflect the conversation away from what his friends were doing. I didn't read anything in what Lily was saying to relate to the werewolf episode. Lily didn't want to talk about them, that's true. And she did not want to talk about them because she was trying to talk to Snape about something else. Then Snape dropped the clanger to end all clangers and told her he wouldn't let her...do what? Whatever he was about to say, you could surmise it was going over like a lead balloon. Lily is a strong minded girl, I think she saw through what Snape was doing and his whole attitude was irritating her, but he did not really pay attention to that because by that time he was happy by what she said about James. IMO Lily did not do anything wrong, except she lost her temper when he tried to, well bully is a little strong but it fits the bill in a mild sort of way. IMO the entire scene is a great example of two people having a conversation and hearing entirly different things. Snape did not hear what Lily was saying and Lily did not notice he was not listening.

ignisia July 9th, 2008 7:51 pm

Re: Snape and Lily: Joint Character Analysis v.3
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by eliza101 (Post 5080727)
I could concede your point except for one thing, their conversation was not about the Maurauders. Snape brought them up IMO to deflect the conversation away from what his friends were doing.

Yes.
But that has nothing to do with the Marauders' behavior, and everything to do with Severus' own fears. And yes, Lily does not bring them up, but I was speaking of what she says when they are brought up.


And I wouldn't exactly call what Snape was doing there when he said "I won't let you--" bullying (or even a less harsh synonym) for a couple of reasons.

First of all, he seems to make an exception of Lily. He (at first) doesn't call her Mudblood the way he would to someone else and when they are children, he makes a point of mentioning how special she is when he says she has "loads of magic". I don't think he truly would ever want to hurt her. Even when he does hurt her as a DE, he tries everything he can to rectify the damage he did.

Second, his overall tone throughout that part of the conversation doesn't speak of someone threatening. He goes from defensive to desperate, becoming especially desperate when he discovers what Lily thinks of the Werewolf Incident. I think that on some level, he saw what was going on between James and Lily and did not trust James. Hence the "I just don't want to see you made a fool of". Something along those lines, I think, was what he originally wanted to end the sentence with before she interrupted him.

wickedwickedboy July 9th, 2008 8:25 pm

Re: Snape and Lily: Joint Character Analysis v.3
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by ignisia (Post 5080745)
Yes.
But that has nothing to do with the Marauders' behavior, and everything to do with Severus' own fears. And yes, Lily does not bring them up, but I was speaking of what she says when they are brought up.

What she said showed her anger at Snape's prejudicial attitude toward Remus and his desire to act upon it, in my judgment. Evidently, she did not want him to press the matter. How exactly was Lily in the wrong by what she said? You've made the accusation in three posts, but never provided text so I am not sure what you are referring to. :)

Quote:

And I wouldn't exactly call what Snape was doing there when he said "I won't let you--" bullying (or even a less harsh synonym) for a couple of reasons.

First of all, he seems to make an exception of Lily. He (at first) doesn't call her Mudblood the way he would to someone else and when they are children, he makes a point of mentioning how special she is when he says she has "loads of magic". I don't think he truly would ever want to hurt her. Even when he does hurt her as a DE, he tries everything he can to rectify the damage he did.

Second, his overall tone throughout that part of the conversation doesn't speak of someone threatening. He goes from defensive to desperate, becoming especially desperate when he discovers what Lily thinks of the Werewolf Incident. I think that on some level, he saw what was going on between James and Lily and did not trust James. Hence the "I just don't want to see you made a fool of". Something along those lines, I think, was what he originally wanted to end the sentence with before she interrupted him.
I would disagree. I feel it was bullying behavior - not in the sense of a threat, but in term of Snape attempting to control Lily. I feel that was Snape's nature and when she was younger, I feel that she went along with his whims because everything was new to her. However, as they began along diverging paths, I feel Lily became less and less accepting and Snape more diplomatic. However, the issue here was her falling for James and that, I believe caused him to react in a stronger fashion, more like when they were young - but Lily was not at all willing to even compromise on being controled - especially by Snape because I feel she did not approve of his behavior, attitude and viewpoint.

eliza101 July 9th, 2008 9:42 pm

Re: Snape and Lily: Joint Character Analysis v.3
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by ignisia (Post 5080745)
Yes.
But that has nothing to do with the Marauders' behavior, and everything to do with Severus' own fears. And yes, Lily does not bring them up, but I was speaking of what she says when they are brought up.


And I wouldn't exactly call what Snape was doing there when he said "I won't let you--" bullying (or even a less harsh synonym) for a couple of reasons.

First of all, he seems to make an exception of Lily. He (at first) doesn't call her Mudblood the way he would to someone else and when they are children, he makes a point of mentioning how special she is when he says she has "loads of magic". I don't think he truly would ever want to hurt her. Even when he does hurt her as a DE, he tries everything he can to rectify the damage he did.

Second, his overall tone throughout that part of the conversation doesn't speak of someone threatening. He goes from defensive to desperate, becoming especially desperate when he discovers what Lily thinks of the Werewolf Incident. I think that on some level, he saw what was going on between James and Lily and did not trust James. Hence the "I just don't want to see you made a fool of". Something along those lines, I think, was what he originally wanted to end the sentence with before she interrupted him.

I respect your opinion but my point is Snape was trying to deflect the conversation. I agree Lily may have had an unconsious attraction to James at that point, but if she had one it was nothing to do with what she was trying to tell Snape. He did not want to talk about what the boys he was hanging around with were doing, so he dragged the Maurauders into the conversation. As Lily said, "What's Potter got to do with anything?". Snape in my opinion knew he could not defend Avery and Mulciber so he deflected the conversation. His own jealousy led him to mention James which led Lily down the path of defending the Maurauders. she may not have known much but she did know they were not practicing Dark Magic.
Snape in this particular scene, to me at least just keeps digging a deeper hole for himself. I just feel sorry for him. Here he is trying to impress the girl of his dreams and all he's doing is bringing her attention to his chief rival. He couldn't have made more mistakes if he'd tried.
As for trying to making amends for hurting her, I do think causing the destruction of a family calls for another way of expressing the circumstances. He caused her to be brutally murdered along with her husband. Her child was left an orphan.
When I read about Snape I see a wasted life that could have been so rich even if he didn't get Lily. He was intelligent, brave and loyal and a darn good double agent.

ignisia July 9th, 2008 9:55 pm

Re: Snape and Lily: Joint Character Analysis v.3
 
Quote:

I respect your opinion but my point is Snape was trying to deflect the conversation.
I'm confused. Where do we disagree? :lol: I also think that he is trying to deflect the conversation-- perhaps not out of jealousy, but out of defensiveness and fear.

Quote:

As for trying to making amends for hurting her, I do think causing the destruction of a family calls for another way of expressing the circumstances. He caused her to be brutally murdered along with her husband. Her child was left an orphan.
But obviously he can be forgiven for that, especially since he attempted to prevent it from happening and eventually realized his mistakes. :huh:

wickedwickedboy July 9th, 2008 10:10 pm

Re: Snape and Lily: Joint Character Analysis v.3
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by eliza101 (Post 5080823)
I respect your opinion but my point is Snape was trying to deflect the conversation. I agree Lily may have had an unconsious attraction to James at that point, but if she had one it was nothing to do with what she was trying to tell Snape. He did not want to talk about what the boys he was hanging around with were doing, so he dragged the Maurauders into the conversation. As Lily said, "What's Potter got to do with anything?". Snape in my opinion knew he could not defend Avery and Mulciber so he deflected the conversation. His own jealousy led him to mention James which led Lily down the path of defending the Maurauders. she may not have known much but she did know they were not practicing Dark Magic.

I agree, which is why I feel Lily was completely in the right throughout that conversation.

Quote:

Snape in this particular scene, to me at least just keeps digging a deeper hole for himself. I just feel sorry for him. Here he is trying to impress the girl of his dreams and all he's doing is bringing her attention to his chief rival. He couldn't have made more mistakes if he'd tried.

As for trying to making amends for hurting her, I do think causing the destruction of a family calls for another way of expressing the circumstances. He caused her to be brutally murdered along with her husband. Her child was left an orphan.

When I read about Snape I see a wasted life that could have been so rich even if he didn't get Lily. He was intelligent, brave and loyal and a darn good double agent.
I think that is a very good point. I too feel that the euphemism 'hurt' does not include the idea that Snape's deed was intentionally more deadly in nature. Snape was aware that some baby and likely its family would be targeted by Voldemort and suffer death and perhaps torture as well (considering the dark lord's methods as seen in Dark Lord Ascending). I feel Snape's attempt to undo what he did was not thorough, but safe in that he went to Dumbledore, who could protect him and warn the Potters, but had proved inefficient over the proceeding years at bringing the dark lord down. I believe Snape then worked 17 years in an attempt to make up for what he'd done to Lily, but not what he'd done to James or Harry, imo.

Thus, I would agree Snape's life proved to be wasted in personal terms because he could have gone on to do great things and had a full life based on the character as written. I think that forgiveness in terms of what Snape did and his attempt to atone is something that will vary from reader to reader. In my view, his act of delivery of the prophecy was unforgivable because he had no regret or remose for what he did to Harry and James. I feel that Harry his mother and father were written as big and compassionate people, who could forgive where it is not merited in a messiah like gesture and they did. However, as a reader without messiah like qualities, I am unable to do so. :lol:. But in terms of this thread, that would mean that ultimately Lily (and her family) would have forgiven Snape for all that he'd done, despite the fact that I feel he'd of only wanted forgiveness from her.

eliza101 July 9th, 2008 10:12 pm

Re: Snape and Lily: Joint Character Analysis v.3
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by ignisia (Post 5080831)
I'm confused. Where do we disagree? :lol: I also think that he is trying to deflect the conversation-- perhaps not out of jealousy, but out of defensiveness and fear.

But obviously he can be forgiven for that, especially since he attempted to prevent it from happening and eventually realized his mistakes. :huh:

I seem to have misunderstood you. If I gave the impression that I thought he was not worthy of forgiveness then I am in the wrong. Snape repented. If he could have forgiven himself it would have been better, I'm sure Lily forgave him in the end. Repentance can be a bitter thing and Snape certainly learned that the hard way. He is like the Prodigal Son in many ways.

ignisia July 10th, 2008 1:35 am

Re: Snape and Lily: Joint Character Analysis v.3
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by eliza101 (Post 5080846)
He is like the Prodigal Son in many ways.

:agree: I've expanded on this idea in the Snape thread. Thanks for bringing it up. :tu:

meesha1971 July 10th, 2008 5:22 am

Re: Snape and Lily: Joint Character Analysis v.3
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by wickedwickedboy (Post 5080844)
I agree, which is why I feel Lily was completely in the right throughout that conversation.

Completely agree. :agree:

Quote:

I think that is a very good point. I too feel that the euphemism 'hurt' does not include the idea that Snape's deed was intentionally more deadly in nature. Snape was aware that some baby and likely its family would be targeted by Voldemort and suffer death and perhaps torture as well (considering the dark lord's methods as seen in Dark Lord Ascending). I feel Snape's attempt to undo what he did was not thorough, but safe in that he went to Dumbledore, who could protect him and warn the Potters, but had proved inefficient over the proceeding years at bringing the dark lord down. I believe Snape then worked 17 years in an attempt to make up for what he'd done to Lily, but not what he'd done to James or Harry, imo.

Thus, I would agree Snape's life proved to be wasted in personal terms because he could have gone on to do great things and had a full life based on the character as written. I think that forgiveness in terms of what Snape did and his attempt to atone is something that will vary from reader to reader. In my view, his act of delivery of the prophecy was unforgivable because he had no regret or remose for what he did to Harry and James. I feel that Harry his mother and father were written as big and compassionate people, who could forgive where it is not merited in a messiah like gesture and they did. However, as a reader without messiah like qualities, I am unable to do so. :lol:. But in terms of this thread, that would mean that ultimately Lily (and her family) would have forgiven Snape for all that he'd done, despite the fact that I feel he'd of only wanted forgiveness from her.
I agree with you to some extent. I agree that Snape's act of delivering the prophecy to Voldemort is unforgivable - there was nothing he could do to atone for that, IMO because - as you said - he did not have any regrets for what he did to James and Harry. However, I believe that Snape's primary motive in helping Dumbledore was to get revenge against Voldemort because he broke his word and killed Lily. As Jo said, if it had been anyone but Lily, Snape would never have gotten involved. He would have remained a loyal Death Eater to the end in that event. According to Jo, Snape turned on Voldemort because he felt that Voldemort had betrayed him when he killed Lily - and I feel that is demonstrated in the text as well.

I have to disagree about Lily though. I don't think Lily would have been happy with either Snape or Dumbledore for what they did to Harry. I think it is important to remember what Dumbledore's plan actually was - he kept Harry safe so he could be killed at the right time. It wasn't until after Voldemort returned that Dumbledore even had a glimmer of hope that Harry might be able to survive. And, even then, he wasn't completely sure that Harry would survive. And he never told Snape about that possibility at all. He lets Snape believe that Harry is the only one who can kill Voldemort until some time near the end of Harry's sixth year. And then he tells Snape that Harry's death is actually the key to defeating Voldemort - Voldemort must kill Harry himself and then he can be defeated. And Snape willingly goes along with Dumbledore's plan - following every order - believing that the end result will be permanent death for Harry.

So I think Lily would have been furious with both of them. She gave up her life so Harry could live - not so Snape and Dumbledore could use him as a pawn in their game against Voldemort and lead him to his death. I do think she could eventually forgive Dumbledore because he didn't actually want Harry to die and he was happy when he found out there might be a way for Harry to survive - the gleam of triumph. And I think - since she was watching over Harry - she probably knew that Dumbledore's suspicions were right and Harry would survive. However, Snape never knew about any of that. As far as Snape knew, he was sending Harry off to permanent death. And this is after Snape had spent years bullying and tormenting Harry - generally making Harry's life even more miserable.

I don't believe Lily would have felt that was justified either. I think she would have been horrified at the way Snape treated Harry - her only child - as well as the fact that he helped Dumbledore believing that he was sending Harry to a permanent death - particularly after she had given up her life so Harry could live. I think she would have been grateful that it worked out that Harry was able to survive, but the fact remains that Harry's survival didn't have anything to do with Snape. Harry was able to survive because Voldemort used his blood - not because of anything Snape did. Snape believed he was sending Harry off to die - permanently. So I honestly don't believe that Lily would have been very forgiving towards Snape. I know I would be furious at anyone who did things like that to any of my kids.

wickedwickedboy July 10th, 2008 1:10 pm

Re: Snape and Lily: Joint Character Analysis v.3
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by meesha1971 (Post 5081168)
I agree with you to some extent. I agree that Snape's act of delivering the prophecy to Voldemort is unforgivable - there was nothing he could do to atone for that, IMO because - as you said - he did not have any regrets for what he did to James and Harry. However, I believe that Snape's primary motive in helping Dumbledore was to get revenge against Voldemort because he broke his word and killed Lily. As Jo said, if it had been anyone but Lily, Snape would never have gotten involved. He would have remained a loyal Death Eater to the end in that event. According to Jo, Snape turned on Voldemort because he felt that Voldemort had betrayed him when he killed Lily - and I feel that is demonstrated in the text as well.

Actually I believe we agree to a full extent on this. I agree that revenge became Snape's primary goal with respect to Voldemort due to his having killed Lily.

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have to disagree about Lily though. I don't think Lily would have been happy with either Snape or Dumbledore for what they did to Harry. I think it is important to remember what Dumbledore's plan actually was - he kept Harry safe so he could be killed at the right time. It wasn't until after Voldemort returned that Dumbledore even had a glimmer of hope that Harry might be able to survive. And, even then, he wasn't completely sure that Harry would survive. And he never told Snape about that possibility at all. He lets Snape believe that Harry is the only one who can kill Voldemort until some time near the end of Harry's sixth year. And then he tells Snape that Harry's death is actually the key to defeating Voldemort - Voldemort must kill Harry himself and then he can be defeated. And Snape willingly goes along with Dumbledore's plan - following every order - believing that the end result will be permanent death for Harry.

So I think Lily would have been furious with both of them.
Disagree? We couldn't be more in agreement. :lol:. I have always felt that Lily (and James) would be furious - absoluely livid at Snape (and Dumbledore) both for the plan devised/adopted concerning Harry. Lily, I believe would be especially so because she'd attempted so hard as a teenager to pass her values onto her friend, Snape and he Voldemort's plan of becoming a DE to gain stature and importance anyway. I feel Snape's decision threatened her as an Order member and within the course and scope of his work, resulted in her and her husbands deaths. However, I feel Lily would consider Snape's adoption of Dumbledore's plan, his version of the greater good, in an even worse light. That is because in my judgment, she would feel that Snape intentionally chose to adopt the plan this time around, knowing this time around that it would result in the death of her son.

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She gave up her life so Harry could live - not so Snape and Dumbledore could use him as a pawn in their game against Voldemort and lead him to his death. I do think she could eventually forgive Dumbledore because he didn't actually want Harry to die and he was happy when he found out there might be a way for Harry to survive - the gleam of triumph. And I think - since she was watching over Harry - she probably knew that Dumbledore's suspicions were right and Harry would survive. However, Snape never knew about any of that. As far as Snape knew, he was sending Harry off to permanent death. And this is after Snape had spent years bullying and tormenting Harry - generally making Harry's life even more miserable.
I feel that Lily (and James) knew for certain that Harry would live; however, I don't feel that would have any bearing on how she saw the actions of Snape in this regard because Snape didn't know that Harry might live.

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I don't believe Lily would have felt that was justified either. I think she would have been horrified at the way Snape treated Harry - her only child - as well as the fact that he helped Dumbledore believing that he was sending Harry to a permanent death - particularly after she had given up her life so Harry could live. I think she would have been grateful that it worked out that Harry was able to survive, but the fact remains that Harry's survival didn't have anything to do with Snape. Harry was able to survive because Voldemort used his blood - not because of anything Snape did. Snape believed he was sending Harry off to die - permanently.
I agree; I don't feel that Lily would see it as justified either on Dumbledore's part (and to be fair, at Kings Cross he didn't feel it was justifiable either). I agree that Harry's survival had nothing to do with Snape - he thought Harry would die. I feel Lily would definitely note that and she would be furious at Snape for adopting the plan for that reason.

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So I honestly don't believe that Lily would have been very forgiving towards Snape. I know I would be furious at anyone who did things like that to any of my kids.
This is where I think you read something distinct in my idea. I feel that for Harry to have forgiven (which he was shown to have done in the Epilogue), he would have to know that his father and mother too would forgive. And the thing is, we know James would have forgiven Peter along these same lines (POA) as Harry did - and since Lily and James were soulmates, Lily would also likely forgive. Harry, even if he forgave, would not dishonor his mum and dad if he felt they would not have forgiven Snape, in my judgment.

I believe here that JKR was attempting to show the large amount of compassion, capacity for forgiveness, messiah like qualities of Lily (Harry and James) in their ability to overlook all that Snape had done and honor him where many others would not - even though I feel he did not merit it due to the things we spoke of above (and I feel Lily (and her family) also recognized Snape did not merit it). But this is not to be confused with Lily regarding Snape positively, in my view. JKR also said Harry would never go and speak to Snape's portrait if one was made which is how Lily (and James) would react toward Snape as well, in my view. This is because it would be important for Snape to understand that Lily was not a grudge-holding person (like her son and husband) and like them, had a huge capacity to forgive and all of that, but also that she recognized his actions and behavior had been highly negative and inappropriate and more importantly, Snape would have to recognize that.

So rather than holding on to fury, I feel Lily (and James) would show forgiveness in the same way as Harry, and not be opposed to her son honoring the good Snape did (bravely spying, etc.). However, like her son, Lily would not whitewash Snape's past to the extent where Snape felt she had no self-respect in accepting his past behavior with a shrug. That is the point I feel JKR wanted to make and it gave me a new understanding of the Epilogue. I feel Snape's version of honoring Lily's death was disrepectful and deeply flawed and that is something that would be important for Lily (and James) to ensure Snape understood she felt (Harry couldn't do this because he was still in the wizard world - he could only act from his side of the equation - thus not speaking to the portrait).

This is kind of difficult to explain, so I hope I was clear. :lol:. In my judgment, JKR went over the top in the naming to make this point, showing the deeply understanding and compassionate nature of the Potter's, including Lily, again, almost god like in their capacity in this regard - it makes them outstanding in this light, imo. But I feel Lily's abilities in this regard (and James) also include rejection of Snape on an interpersonal level (akin to Harry not speaking to the portrait). To do otherwise would be to show disrespect to one's self, imo, which is why JKR wanted to clarify that aspect.

Personally, not having the huge capacity I feel JKR portrayed in Lily, I cannot be as forgiving, etc., however, that is how she wished to paint Lily (and her family) in my opinion in her final attitude toward Snape.

Pearl_Took July 10th, 2008 2:13 pm

Re: Snape and Lily: Joint Character Analysis v.3
 
Wicked, I have made a response to your post but since my reply had far more to do with Snape in general, rather than Snape and Lily, I've placed it in the Snape character thread instead. :)

Raelis July 18th, 2008 9:15 am

Re: Snape and Lily: Joint Character Analysis v.3
 
1. Why do you think Snape was so reluctant to approach Lily? Would he have been interested in her if she had not been magical?
Because he was shy, insecure and probably didn’t have any other friends, so he had no idea what he was supposed to behave like. Besides, he came from a poor family (I think it’s quite obvious in canon), and I have no doubt that the way he was dressed certainly brought a lot of ridicule and humiliation upon him from other kids, so he expectd something of the sort from the Evans sisters (and he was right to expect it).

2. Why did Lily accept Snape's friendship? Would she have been as friendly to him if he had not told her about the magical world?
She accepted the friendship because Snape intrigued her. He was the only one to provide her with an explanation of her strange abilities, and she had no reasons to disbelieve him. If Snape hadn’t told her about the Wizarding world, she would have probably not given him the time of day, seeing as he was so poor and weird.

3. What role did each of them play in the friendship? Do you think it was a friendship of equals?
No, I certainly don’t think so. At least from what I see in canon, they don’t really seem equal to me. Lily obviously has the upper hand – Snape’s the one who needs the friendship, not her. She’s popular, pretty and outgoing (from what I can see), unlike him. She doesn’t depend on the relationship with Sev as much as he does on the relationship with her.

I think, though, that they were quite equal when it came to intelligence. They were both good, extremely gifted and creative students. Apparently they shared the same interests (potions), so they probably always had interesting topics to discuss.

However, judging by the way Lily talks to Snape in almost every single scene, it seems like he constantly has to defend himself as she berates and criticizes him. The scene where Snape brings up the subject of the Marauders and Lily immediately cuts him off is very telling, in my opinion. It’s like Lily wasn’t used to hearing any objections and wouldn’t tolerate if Snape ever tried arguing with her. All of this makes me come to a conclusion that Lily had a rather bossy and domineering character. Whether the friendship lasted or not was entirely up to her.

4. How did Hogwarts effect the friendship? We see that up until fifth year they consider themselves to be "best friends", despite the house system. Do you think they both worked to maintain the friendship?
I think the unhealthy rivalry between Slytherin and Gryffindor had a lot to do with Snape and Lily’s friendship falling apart. Lily was prepared to defend the Marauders even though Snape considered their pranks to be no better than those of his Slytherin friends. Also, Lily’s Gryffindor friends seemed to dislike Snape, which could also have influenced Lily’s thoughts on her “best friend”.

The Slytherins’ treatment of “Mudbloods” and interest in Dark magic obviously didn’t help.

I think they worked hard to maintain their friendship. In other case, they would just have split up in their first or second year. But Sev and Lily remained friends for 5 years after they had come to Hogwarts, in spite of all the pressure. That’s saying something.

5. How did Gryffindor change Lily? How did Slytherin change Snape? Would each have changed in the same way if they had been sorted into another house? Would the friendship have changed as drastically if they were in the same house?
Lily ended up in the House the members of which despised Slytherin on principle. Snape ended up in the House almost all members of which were Death-Eater wannabes. It’s a wonder they managed to cling to their friendship as long as they did.

I think their relationship would certainly have been different if both got sorted into Gryffindor or Ravenclaw. They wouldn’t have to overcome prejudices on a daily basis. But things would have still been difficult for them. The problem of the social status wouldn’t have disappeared magically. Snape would have remained poor, unattractive and unsociable, so Lily would have fallen for someone else, and the friendship would have probably been broken anyway.

6. What was the death knoll for the friendship? Was it Snape's budding interest in the Dark Arts, the mudblood insult or something else?
Snape’s hanging out with the future Death Eaters and Lily’s attraction to James Potter did their job.

7. Was there a different choice Snape could have made to save the friendship? Was there a different choice Lily could have made?
Snape could have refused to have anything to do with his Slytherin mates… But I can see why he didn’t. He was already not on the best of terms with the Marauders, to put it mildly. If he had provoked his Dark Magic-loving, bigoted, influential, pure-blooded Housemates, they would have made his life hell (given that he was a Half-blood and as poor as a church mouse, I can definitely see why he wasn’t too eager to defy the other Slytherins). He could have probably pretended to share their ideology and informed Lily of this necessity, I think. But he chose to defend Mulciber and Avery to Lily’s attacks, which, I think, was an extremely poor choice.

Lily… I’m afraid I don’t see her as a very loyal friend either. She wasn’t at all concerned about Sev’s well-being when she brought up the subject of the Werewolf incident, and her behaviour in SWM was rather strange for a friend, to say the least. So, I guess, where Snape could have been cleverer and more independent, Lily could have been more loyal.

8. How would their lives have been different if they had managed to save their friendship? Do you think they might have had a romantic future? A lifelong friendship?
We know practically nothing about their friendship, so I can only speculate. Judging by what I see in canon, they believed themselves to be the best friends, but weren’t particularly close. Both of them would have outgrown their superficial “friendship”, even if Sev had never become a Death-Eater, IMO.

ComicBookWorm July 18th, 2008 10:09 am

Re: Snape and Lily: Joint Character Analysis v.3
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Raelis (Post 5088029)
Snape would have remained poor, unattractive and unsociable, so Lily would have fallen for someone else, and the friendship would have probably been broken anyway.

Where is the canon that Lily's opinion of Snape was influenced by his appearance?
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Originally Posted by Raelis (Post 5088029)
Lily… I’m afraid I don’t see her as a very loyal friend either. She wasn’t at all concerned about Sev’s well-being when she brought up the subject of the Werewolf incident

But he was unharmed. There would have been no need to show concern after the fact.

The_Green_Woods July 18th, 2008 10:10 am

Re: Snape and Lily: Joint Character Analysis v.3
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Raelis (Post 5088029)
She accepted the friendship because Snape intrigued her. He was the only one to provide her with an explanation of her strange abilities, and she had no reasons to disbelieve him. If Snape hadn’t told her about the Wizarding world, she would have probably not given him the time of day, seeing as he was so poor and weird.

No, I certainly don’t think so. At least from what I see in canon, they don’t really seem equal to me. Lily obviously has the upper hand – Snape’s the one who needs the friendship, not her. She’s popular, pretty and outgoing (from what I can see), unlike him. She doesn’t depend on the relationship with Sev as much as he does on the relationship with her.

Very interesting, Raelis. For I always thought until Lily fell for James and started moving away from Snape, their friendship was very much equal. Mainly because Snape would not have repented as he did and love her as he did, until he died, had they not had a friendship that was mutually satisfying. In fact I would also say that Lily too not only knew about the dark arts but also read along with Snape.

If they were not happy with each other, the frienship I feel would have fallen apart much earlier. I thought she was content with Snape and was happy with his friendship, and it is only from JKR that we have news that Lily was a popular girl; we don;t see one close friend apart from Snape as we do for James, Sirius, Harry, Draco even in the books. When she was not with Snape and she was in Gryffindor Tower, I think she hung around with Mary McDonald. But that's it IMO.

We don't see one friend of Lily on page, not when she writes to Sirius in DH. Sirius and Remus don't say anything about her "best friends" or even her friends. I think they did not, because there was only Snape and no other friend she was really close to and that information would have made Harry look at Snape completely differently.

It was only Dumbledore who had promised Snape he would never tell Harry; but no one really tells Harry about his mother's friends, which is surprising IMO. I think Sirius and Remus don't because there weren't other friends apart from Lily IMO.

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I think, though, that they were quite equal when it came to intelligence. They were both good, extremely gifted and creative students. Apparently they shared the same interests (potions), so they probably always had interesting topics to discuss
I agree, same interests including the dark arts IMO acually. :D

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However, judging by the way Lily talks to Snape in almost every single scene, it seems like he constantly has to defend himself as she berates and criticizes him. The scene where Snape brings up the subject of the Marauders and Lily immediately cuts him off is very telling, in my opinion. It’s like Lily wasn’t used to hearing any objections and wouldn’t tolerate if Snape ever tried arguing with her. All of this makes me come to a conclusion that Lily had a rather bossy and domineering character. Whether the friendship lasted or not was entirely up to her.
We saw those scenes when they started getting ot know each other, which was probably a whole year before Hogwarts and then, we saw the reasons for the break up. When we came to the werewolf incident, it's Snape who's hanging on to the friendship, desperate to not let go; Lily was not a friend IMO in that memory itself. her reactions are not what a best frined would have.

But between the time of the first memory and the SWM, there were almost 6 years. And Lily and Snape despite being in Houses that were enemies were best friends IMO.

Lily's Gryffindor mates could not satisfy her need for friendship like Snape did, because had they done so, Lily and Snape would not have been best friends for such a long time IMO.

Her love for James Potter decided her friendship with Snape. She knew subconciously that James and Snape would never get along and she chose her love over friendship IMO.

Ironically James chose exactly the opposite when he chose the SK (not the switch); he chose friendship over family IMO.

Of course at the same time Snape was also hanging out with Avery and Mulciber. But I do feel that Lily would have been able to pull him away from being a DE, had she not fallen for James IMO.

She would have slapped him and told him not to do that and I believe Snape would have obeyed. But sadly for Snape, she was not willing to make the effort, because she had started moving away IMO.

I am not blaming her for Snape's mistakes BTW, I only feel, she was not as committed as she was to the frinendship at a time Snape desperately needed it. It was all very sad IMO.

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Lily… I’m afraid I don’t see her as a very loyal friend either. She wasn’t at all concerned about Sev’s well-being when she brought up the subject of the Werewolf incident, and her behaviour in SWM was rather strange for a friend, to say the least. So, I guess, where Snape could have been cleverer and more independent, Lily could have been more loyal.
Lily was not a loyal friend when we see her; because we see her at the end of their friendship; in fact I would go further and say she was not a friend at all at that time. But I would also say that she and Snape were really the best of friends, they enjoyed each other's company and they were very content with each other until then.

Also unlike other friends they would be together not only during School time, but also during holidays; and I don't think they ever got tired of each other and they were very happy with each other IMO.

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We know practically nothing about their friendship, so I can only speculate. Judging by what I see in canon, they believed themselves to be the best friends, but weren’t particularly close. Both of them would have outgrown their superficial “friendship”, even if Sev had never become a Death-Eater, IMO.
It was "superficial from the time of the werewolf incident; but before that I do think it was very fulfilling IMO. :)

Pearl_Took July 18th, 2008 10:43 am

Re: Snape and Lily: Joint Character Analysis v.3
 
Sorry, TGW, but I think there are potential problems in the friendship from the get-go, because of the anti-Muggle prejudice that young Sev had picked up from his upbringing. That is a big factor, and canon shows that very clearly, IMHO. The equality in the friendship is seriously undermined from the beginning by little Severus having to bite his tongue about the anti-Muggle stuff. Of course he loves Lily, so he makes an exception for her ... but this issue is going to grow and grow until it becomes a serious threat to the friendship.

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Originally Posted by The_Green_Woods (Post 5088042)
In fact I would also say that Lily too not only knew about the dark arts but also read along with Snape.

Where in canon do we have proof of this? :) From her reaction to Mulciber and Avery's 'evil' magic on Mary, Lily seems to hate the Dark Arts. And where do we see that she 'read about them' along with Snape? :huh: There is just no indication in canon of this at all.

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If they were not happy with each other, the frienship I feel would have fallen apart much earlier. I thought she was content with Snape and was happy with his friendship, and it is only from JKR that we have news that Lily was a popular girl; we don;t see one close friend apart from Snape as we do for James, Sirius, Harry, Draco even in the books. When she was not with Snape and she was in Gryffindor Tower, I think she hung around with Mary McDonald. But that's it IMO.
I have two responses to this:

1) It has to be remembered that Sev's memories in The Prince's Tale are selective. They don't have a spin on them, they are honest memories :) but of course they can only show Lily from Sev's POV. The memories obviously cannot show Lily in Gryffindor surrounded by her friends, because he wasn't there at the time. :) However, in SWM, we did see her with a gaggle of girls from Gryffindor. She and Sev were not together then (which to me seems to indicate that the friendship had already cooled).

2) The way JKR writes Lily. She comes across as an eager, open-hearted, kind little girl who accepts the strange, lonely little boy who befriends her. Lily is a warm person, Sev is a closed-up person. It doesn't surprise me that she should be popular ... nor that she would have remained friends with Severus and been extremely fond of him.

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We don't see one friend of Lily on page, not when she writes to Sirius in DH. Sirius and Remus don't say anything about her "best friends" or even her friends. I think they did not, because there was only Snape and no other friend she was really close to and that information would have made Harry look at Snape completely differently.
Well, at the time of Sirius's letter she and James were in hiding, of course, with little to no contact with former friends, no doubt.

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Lily's Gryffindor mates could not satisfy her need for friendship like Snape did, because had they done so, Lily and Snape would not have been best friends for such a long time IMO.
I don't doubt Lily's genuine affection for Severus. But she tells him in their final conversation that she has been 'making excuses for him' (I take that to mean his hanging around with people who wanted to target Muggleborns like herself, among other things) for 'years': this indicates to me that their friendship had had big issues for some considerable time.

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Her love for James Potter decided her friendship with Snape. She knew subconciously that James and Snape would never get along and she chose her love over friendship IMO.
I fundamentally disagree with this analysis of Lily, as you know. :) Of course James was a factor, but he wasn't the only one. And Lily was not in love with him at the time of SWM -- she fancied him, sure, but she also thought he was an arrogant bully for for the way he treated Severus. If she chose James over Severus at that time, why then did she chew James out for his behaviour in front of his friends? She doesn't start going out with him for another two years after that. So I do not agree that she chose love over friendship. It was the 'Mudblood' incident that finally killed the friendship.

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Of course at the same time Snape was also hanging out with Avery and Mulciber. But I do feel that Lily would have been able to pull him away from being a DE, had she not fallen for James IMO.

She would have slapped him and told him not to do that and I believe Snape would have obeyed. But sadly for Snape, she was not willing to make the effort, because she had started moving away IMO.
Lily was already making the effort. :huh: We see that, when she tells Severus, in quite a lot of distress, that what Mulciber and Avery do is 'evil' and she just can't understand why he is friends with them. Unfortunately, Severus is so overjoyed that she called James "an arrogant toe-rag" that he has stopped listening.

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Lily was not a loyal friend when we see her; because we see her at the end of their friendship; in fact I would go further and say she was not a friend at all at that time. But I would also say that she and Snape were really the best of friends, they enjoyed each other's company and they were very content with each other until then.
I don't think the friendship was smooth and untroubled until the point of the Werewolf incident, because Lily's unhappiness with the company Sev was keeping in Slytherin House pre-dates that.

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It was "superficial from the time of the werewolf incident; but before that I do think it was very fulfilling IMO. :)
I think there was a fundamental problem within the friendship well before the werewolf incident: Sev's obsession with the Dark Arts and his seduction (for lack of a better word) by the Death Eater elite within Slytherin.

All part of his tragic story, of course, poor guy.

But I do feel that Lily's concerns were legitimate, and not just because she later -- much later -- fell in love with James Potter ... a pureblood boy, it should be noted, who did not care tuppence that she was Muggleborn. :cool:

Raelis July 18th, 2008 10:53 am

Re: Snape and Lily: Joint Character Analysis v.3
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by ComicBookWorm (Post 5088041)
Where is the canon that Lily's opinion of Snape was influenced by his appearance?

Many girls and young women pay attention to a man's appearance and social status when they are in search of a suitable partner. It may not be the most important factor, but it does play a significant role, especially for young girls. Snape was not just unattractive, he is often described as ugly. Given that Lily fell for James Potter who was as different from Snape as it was possible to be, I'd say Snape's chances of ever becoming Lily's romantic interest were zero.

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But he was unharmed. There would have been no need to show concern after the fact.
What difference does it make if he was physically unharmed or not? If Lily were a loyal friend, she would have been concerned anyway, considering that her "best friend" had almost got himself killed. She seemed totally indifferent to the fact, IMO. I cannot imagine Hermione acting the same way.

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Originally Posted by The_Green_Woods (Post 5088042)
Very interesting, Raelis. For I always thought until Lily fell for James and started moving away from Snape, their friendship was very much equal. Mainly because Snape would not have repented as he did and love her as he did, until he died, had they not had a friendship that was mutually satisfying. In fact I would also say that Lily too not only knew about the dark arts but also read along with Snape.

I used to think the same, but at this moment I'm in a rather pessimistic mood, and this certainly influences my view on Snape and Lily's friendship. Actually, I'm still undecided when it comes to their relationship. I change my mind every two days or so. :)

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If they were not happy with each other, the frienship I feel would have fallen apart much earlier. I thought she was content with Snape and was happy with his friendship, and it is only from JKR that we have news that Lily was a popular girl; we don;t see one close friend apart from Snape as we do for James, Sirius, Harry, Draco even in the books. When she was not with Snape and she was in Gryffindor Tower, I think she hung around with Mary McDonald. But that's it IMO.
I would like to think that they were happy with each other, but I base my view entirely on what I see in canon.

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We don't see one friend of Lily on page, not when she writes to Sirius in DH. Sirius and Remus don't say anything about her "best friends" or even her friends. I think they did not, because there was only Snape and no other friend she was really close to and that information would have made Harry look at Snape completely differently.
She did have friends, though. She says to Snape that none of her friends understands why she continues hanging out with him. She also spends her time with her girlfriends after the OWL exam rather than approaching Snape and talking to him.
Sirius and Lupin didn't mention her other friends because they were not necessary to the plot, IMHO.

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I agree, same interests including the dark arts IMO acually. :D
That's an interesting thought. Why do you think so? Lily made it clear in DH that she hated the Dark Arts. :hmm:

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We saw those scenes when they started getting ot know each other, which was probably a whole year before Hogwarts and then, we saw the reasons for the break up. When we came to the werewolf incident, it's Snape who's hanging on to the friendship, desperate to not let go; Lily was not a friend IMO in that memory itself. her reactions are not what a best frined would have.
This is what makes me think that the friendship would have been broken anyway, Mudblood or no Mudblood. Lily was simply not interested. She had other magical friends and admirers.

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But between the time of the first memory and the SWM, there were almost 6 years. And Lily and Snape despite being in Houses that were enemies were best friends IMO.
It's possible that Lily contunued being friends with Snape because he was the only magical person she could talk to during summer holidays. Considering how outgoing she seemed to be, she would have probably not been content with letters alone.

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Her love for James Potter decided her friendship with Snape. She knew subconciously that James and Snape would never get along and she chose her love over friendship IMO.
Well, I wouldn't use such a strong word as "love" with regards to Lily's feelings to James Potter when they were at Hogwarts. Love came later, I think. At school Lily was attracted to James, IMO.

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Ironically James chose exactly the opposite when he chose the SK (not the switch); he chose friendship over family IMO.
I think, Lily also palyed a part in this. After all, she was strong-willed and fiery. She wouldn't have tolerated it if her husband made such important decisions without consulting with her first. Besides, it seems Sirius was almost as much her friend as he was James's.

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Of course at the same time Snape was also hanging out with Avery and Mulciber. But I do feel that Lily would have been able to pull him away from being a DE, had she not fallen for James IMO.She would have slapped him and told him not to do that and I believe Snape would have obeyed. But sadly for Snape, she was not willing to make the effort, because she had started moving away IMO.
If this is true, it only proves that their friendship was superficial from the very beginning.

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I am not blaming her for Snape's mistakes BTW, I only feel, she was not as committed as she was to the frinendship at a time Snape desperately needed it. It was all very sad IMO.
Agreed. Snape seemed to have read much more into their friendship than Lily did.

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Lily was not a loyal friend when we see her; because we see her at the end of their friendship; in fact I would go further and say she was not a friend at all at that time. But I would also say that she and Snape were really the best of friends, they enjoyed each other's company and they were very content with each other until then.

Also unlike other friends they would be together not only during School time, but also during holidays; and I don't think they ever got tired of each other and they were very happy with each other IMO.
I would gladly agree with you, if we had some canon evidence for this. It was really easy for JKR to include some scenes or hints showing that Lily and Snape's friendship was solid and genuine. She chose not to, and that's why I have to work with what I have. :)

ComicBookWorm July 18th, 2008 11:11 am

Re: Snape and Lily: Joint Character Analysis v.3
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Raelis (Post 5088051)
Many girls and young women pay attention to a man's appearance and social status when they are in search of a suitable partner. It may not be the most important factor, but it does play a significant role, especially for young girls. Snape was not just unattractive, he is often described as ugly. Given that Lily fell for James Potter who was as different from Snape as it was possible to be, I'd say Snape's chances of ever becoming Lily's romantic interest were zero.

He was never a romantic interest for her. He was a childhood friend, not a boyfriend. But they were friends for five or six years, so if his appearance bothered her, she wouldn't have been his friend for so long. We would need even a slight hint in canon that she didn't like his appearance, and the only thing we have is the opposite since he was strangely dressed when they first met and she didn't care.

BTW James Potter was not handsome. Harry has never been described as good looking, rather he is average in appearance.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Raelis (Post 5088051)
It was really easy for JKR to include some scenes or hints showing that Lily and Snape's friendship was solid and genuine. She chose not to, and that's why I have to work with what I have.

Those scenes were not important to the plot. But we do have the fact that they remained friends for five or six years, despite being in different houses.

It isn't fair to the characters or the story to fault them for something that wasn't included. There wasn't enough room to satisfy the curiousity of every fan. We were shown what was essential to propel the storyline. I think it's better to discuss what was in the plot instead of what wasn't.

Raelis July 18th, 2008 11:40 am

Re: Snape and Lily: Joint Character Analysis v.3
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by ComicBookWorm (Post 5088053)
He was never a romantic interest for her. He was a childhood friend, not a boyfriend. But they were friends for five or six years, so if his appearance bothered her, she wouldn't have been his friend for so long.

I know that he was never her romantic interest. In my original post I wanted to say that the friendship would have broken anyway because Snape never had chances of attracting Lily's attention in this way. Given that he was infatuated with her, he wouldn't have been able to cope with the fact that she dated someone else, IMO. Especially is this "someone else" happened to be one of the Marauders. :)

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We would need even a slight hint in canon that she didn't like his appearance, and the only thing we have is the opposite since he was strangely dressed when they first met and she didn't care.
I brought up his appearance in efforts to explain why I don't think Lily would have fallen for him romantically. Their friendship wouldn't have lasted not due to the fact that Snape was ugly, but rather due to the fact that Lily would never have been interested in pursuing
romantic relationship with him. He'd have been too bitter to continue the relationship, IMO.
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BTW James Potter was not handsome. Harry has never been described as good looking, rather he is average in appearance.
In some of her interviews JKR mentioned that Harry inherited his parents' good looks and that James was attractive, though nowhere near Sirius's league. But as I am unable to come up with the exact quotes at the moment, this argument can be easily disregarded, I think.

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I think it's better to discuss what was in the plot instead of what wasn't.
Which is exactly what I'm doing here. :) I base my opinion on Snape and Lily's relationship only on what I see in canon.

My interpretation of canon, however, is solely IMO.

severusfreak July 18th, 2008 12:30 pm

Re: Snape and Lily: Joint Character Analysis v.3
 
snape and lily would have ended up married if he woud have broke ties with the deatheaters. lily gave him a chioce in thier fifth year. up intill then she didnt even really know james that well.not intill she severed ties with snape did she really start hanging with james. so my ? is what would have happened if he would have chose lily instead ? is that what drive him through all the books that question.

ComicBookWorm July 18th, 2008 12:30 pm

Re: Snape and Lily: Joint Character Analysis v.3
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Raelis (Post 5088065)
Their friendship wouldn't have lasted not due to the fact that Snape was ugly, but rather due to the fact that Lily would never have been interested in pursuing romantic relationship with him.

The friendship broke apart because of Snape's DE friends, his bigotry, his interest in the Dark Arts, and his desire to join Voldemort.

Quote:

Originally Posted by severusfreak (Post 5088079)
snape and lily would have ended up married if he woud have broke ties with the deatheaters.

The quote was that she might have been interested in him had he not been interested in the Dark Art. MIGHT have been interested, not would have. We've also been told that James and Lily were soulmates so James would have needed to have been out of the picture as well. And that would not have been the story we read. What ifs don't work for me personally since that isn't what happened or would have happened.

severusfreak July 18th, 2008 12:40 pm

Re: Snape and Lily: Joint Character Analysis v.3
 
where does it say lily was intrestied in james before her and snapes falling out ? as a matter of fact I think she referred to him as a toerag .

ComicBookWorm July 18th, 2008 12:45 pm

Re: Snape and Lily: Joint Character Analysis v.3
 
What Lily felt about James has nothing to do with how she felt about Snape. Snape was a friend not a boyfriend. She wasn't exactly dating Snape at the time.

However, Sirius told Harry that Lily was attracted to James in OotP. And JKR has told us as well. And if you look carefully at SWM you can see that there was an element of flirting between James and Lily.

Yoana July 18th, 2008 12:48 pm

Re: Snape and Lily: Joint Character Analysis v.3
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by ComicBookWorm (Post 5088080)
The friendship broke apart because of Snape's DE friends, his bigotry, his interest in the Dark Arts, and his desire to join Voldemort.

I don't think Snape had the entire blame. I do believe it was a two-way street, that breakup, and I also think that circumstances played a huge role too. I find it unfair to dump all the blame on Snape only.

Raelis July 18th, 2008 1:02 pm

Re: Snape and Lily: Joint Character Analysis v.3
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by ComicBookWorm (Post 5088080)
The friendship broke apart because of Snape's DE friends, his bigotry, his interest in the Dark Arts, and his desire to join Voldemort.

:shrug: I see the situation as much more complicated.

Quote:

Originally Posted by ComicBookWorm (Post 5088085)
However, Sirius told Harry that Lily was attracted to James in OotP.

He didn't. The only thing he said was that Lily didn't hate James.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Yoana (Post 5088086)
I don't think Snape had the entire blame. I do believe it was a two-way street, that breakup, and I also think that circumstances played a huge role too. I find it unfair to dump all the blame on Snape only.

:tu: I agree completely.

ComicBookWorm July 18th, 2008 1:14 pm

Re: Snape and Lily: Joint Character Analysis v.3
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Yoana (Post 5088086)
I find it unfair to dump all the blame on Snape only.

He was practicing the Dark Arts, espousing bigoted beliefs, hanging out with future DEs, aspiring to join Voldemort. Lily was not at fault here. What was surprising was that she hadn't given up on him sooner. Even without SWM, they would have stopped being friends because everything he was doing was contrary to her core beliefs.
Quote:

Originally Posted by Raelis (Post 5088092)
He didn't. The only thing he said was that Lily didn't hate James.

It was there in his tone. Besides JKR has told us as much.

The_Green_Woods July 18th, 2008 1:15 pm

Re: Snape and Lily: Joint Character Analysis v.3
 
Pearl_Took and Raelis have raised points and I'll try to say why exactly I feel the way I do, which BTW id only based on canon; perhaps not the exact words, but the implication, the time limit on their friendship and Lily's character as I understood it. Here goes. :)

Of course the entire post is my opinion only.

1) Lily and Snape were introduced to one another when they were about 9 or 10. And from that time until the werewolf incident, they were friends. Were they best friends. I think so, because in that memory, Snape is asking her rather angrily or perhaps jealously that he thought they were "best friends". And she agreed that they were best friends indeed. So, while they certainly were not best friends when she does reiterate that they are, I felt it was apparent that they were best friends, before.

I concluded from the book itself because of this statement, that they were best friends indeed, until the friendship starting breaking some time before we saw the memeory whoich happened after the werewolf incident. Lily ended the friendship citing certain reasons, but I also feel from the SWM and the werewolf incident, that there were other reasons too for that break up, that had nothing to do with the reasons stated openly on page, but are still implied in the books IMO.

2) In the werewolf incident Snape was silly. He trusted a man who was his enemy and went down the tunnel. That makes him all kinds of foolish and silly IMO.

But that's for Snape. Lily was his friend, let me leave the "best" . Even as a friend, why even as a casual acquaintance she, I feel should have shown some concern at least for Snape.

He had gone into the tunnel and he could have been killed or bitten, both horrible prospects. If my friend had escaped narrowly from a great danger even if it was his own making, I know how I would react; that would nothing like Lily did IMO.

I would fall over my friend, ask him how he was and then I would give the shouting of a lifetime and tell him, he almost deserved to be bitten for following the words of an enemy of all people and demand a promise from him that he would use the brains he had been given never be so foolish ever again. In short I would be worried and frantic for my friend, even though he was silly enough to follow the words of a boy who was his enemy.

Even if he was not my best friend, I would still be concerned first and then tell him to be careful in the future.

Lily on the contrary tells Snape he should be grateful and that he was very ungrateful... when I first read it, I was like ungrateful for what? For living???? was what went through my mind and I am afraid I was not very charitable towards her.

Even now that memory reflects Lily in a very poor light I feel. While many posters feel that Snape guessed about the werewolf and he lived, so where's the fuss, I somehow feel differently.

In that incident Sirius was culpable, Snape was foolish and Lily uncaring and rather callous IMO. None of them really came off very well, but one thing was very clear; Lily was not a friend in that memory.

3) The SWM is where they broke off. Lily by that time had moved so far away from Snape that Snape was sitting all by himself and Lily had made other friends, presumably Mary McDonald and others. But none of them were best friends; that I am certain of because Sirius and Remus, and Lily in her letter to Sirius (all that we have of Lily) never speak of a "best" friend; they never speak of a friend even. So Mary McDonald and other girls were probably those Lily hung around during term time in her free time, but otherwise they did not and probably could not take Snape's place IMO.

While Lily died early and so did James, Sirius and Remus were very much alive and we hear nothing about a best friend or friends of Lily who was dear to her.

Lily broke off from Snape, but his place IMO was never filled. We don't see that in canon.

4) The reason I feel Lily broke off with Snape when she did was to a very large extent because she fell in love with James, and Snape's friendship with the DEs.

Lily I think fell in love with James (and I do believe it was love not attraction or infatuation); I think she fought it, and her very conflicted feelings continued until she probably gave in and went out with James.

The werewolf incident is Lily appreciating James until Snape called her on it. Then she backed off, calling James and arrogant toerag. Lily's feelings came out in the werewolf incident, something Snape also noticed and was terribly jealous, but he also believed her when she called James names and went away; but I think their friendship continued to form huge cracks and break at all places and in the SWM, it was only a formality I felt; it was not a fight, trashing out issues and then ending the friendship, but it was like a dying man who finally breathed his last, much to the relief of one person and much to the dismay of the other.

From sometime in fifth year (I suspect the time of the werewolf incident; we saw the memory after the werewolf incident had happened) Lily started seeing James in a different way; I think from then on she also started seeing Snape in a different way as well. I do think she chose, between her love and her friendship and I also think Snape made it easy for her to choose by being friendly with Avery and Mulciber IMO.

5) When Lily was 9 or so, she became friends with Snape. He was her source of everything magic. He told her about dementors, he told her about Azkaban and he told her about the Wizarding World. He may have also shown his mother's books to her and they may have read together.

Snape did bite off the word "muggle" when speaking about Petunia, but that could be because Lily was very worried about being accepted in the WW, because she did not belong to a Wizarding family, She asks Snape that, we saw and Snape also assures her after a very slight hesitation that blood did not matter.

But I also think Snape was too young to hide the fascination he had for the dark arts. I also think he would have told Lily everything he knew and thought grand about magic, which IMO also included the dark arts. We see Snape telling Lily that she would do good to be sorted into Slytherin. That was because Snape felt Slytherin to be the best and so advocated it. In the same way, I think Snape would have also told Lily about the different forms of magic and the ones that enthralled him the most. he was too young to hide such things from her for one, and secondly, he had no reason to, unlike the muggle comment, which may have worried her.

Talking about magic was naturally different and I don't think Snape held back, because there was no reason to; no one told her or him that this was good magic and this was not. When Lily was sorted into Gryffindor, within a term or two, she would have know about the evilness of Slytherin, dark arts and everything.

Lily was still friends with Snape is proof in my eyes that she did not consider his fascination with the dark arts to be a concerning factor.

The most telling thing for me about Lily's friendship with Snape is the period. The sheer amount of time they spent together, 27/7, 365 days in a year for over 6 years, cannot happen, if Lily was constantly and for "Years" making excuses for him.

The first question is why should she make excuses for him anyway? there is no obligation on both sides. If either Snape or Lily wanted to end the friendship, they were at perfect liberty to do so.

And Lily does not seem the long suffering type like Remus who put up with a lot from everybody, if only they'll accept him kinds. In fact Snape was more like that than Lily.

So if she was really cut up with Snape for a long time, then that friendship would not have stood for such a long time and neither would Snape be so much in love with her, if they were only arguing and Lily was only making excuses for for years.

So I concluded that Snape and Lily did have a good friendship, and Lily was okay with Snape's fascination with the dark arts as well. She did not like his friendship with Avery and Mulciber; she was always against it; she did not like Voldemort (DUH! naturally :D) and she did not like Snape meeting with people who were openly planning to join Voldemort, but I don't think she was against his reading the dark arts (we don't see her aversion for the dark arts at all IMO).

And Snape IMO would have told her about dark arts in their early years of friendship (Sirius in GOF says that Snape knew so many curses when first came to school and at that time he was already best friends with Lily; I presume Lily knew about those curses as well, and curses are not minor spells, but specialized magic, which also could be the dark arts IMO).

The entire post is my opinion only.

ComicBookWorm July 18th, 2008 1:26 pm

Re: Snape and Lily: Joint Character Analysis v.3
 
Well since JKR said Lily might have been interested in Snape romantically had he not been attracted to the Dark Arts, I find it hard to believe she thought it was ok for Snape to be practicing the Dark Arts.

Yoana July 18th, 2008 1:45 pm

Re: Snape and Lily: Joint Character Analysis v.3
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by ComicBookWorm (Post 5088095)
He was practicing the Dark Arts, espousing bigoted beliefs, hanging out with future DEs, aspiring to join Voldemort. Lily was not at fault here. What was surprising was that she hadn't given up on him sooner. Even without SWM, they would have stopped being friends because everything he was doing was contrary to her core beliefs.

Contrary beliefs are not Snape's fault. It's a circumstance. Severus couldn;t understand Lily's concerns and aversion, Lily couldn't understand why Severus should be attracted. There was miscommunication. In my opinion, it was much more complicated than it being entirely Severus's fault.

Raelis July 18th, 2008 2:22 pm

Re: Snape and Lily: Joint Character Analysis v.3
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by ComicBookWorm (Post 5088095)
He was practicing the Dark Arts, espousing bigoted beliefs, hanging out with future DEs, aspiring to join Voldemort. Lily was not at fault here. What was surprising was that she hadn't given up on him sooner. Even without SWM, they would have stopped being friends because everything he was doing was contrary to her core beliefs.

Well, those future DE were his Housemates and his "family" (McGonagall says in the first book that "your House will be your family" or something of the sort). I don't think he had the luxury of choosing with whom he should hang around with, given that he slept in the same dormitory with those future DEs.

As for the Dark Magic and Snape's wish to join Voldemort, no argument here. Although I'm not at all convinced that he truly wanted to join the DE because he was an "inherently evil bigot". JKR pointed out that he felt insecure and vulnerable and also wanted to impress Lily.

I still suspect that Lily would have given up on their friendship even if he hadn't been interested in the Dark Arts and had nothing to do with the Slytherins. Their relationship was doomed from the start, IMO, because they were fundamentally different.

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It was there in his tone.
I didn't notice any such thing in Sirius's tone. It's purely a matter of opinion, I think.
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Besides JKR has told us as much.
When?
Quote:

Originally Posted by The_Green_Woods (Post 5088096)
Lily ended the friendship citing certain reasons, but I also feel from the SWM and the werewolf incident, that there were other reasons too for that break up, that had nothing to do with the reasons stated openly on page, but are still implied in the books IMO

.
:agree:

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2) In the werewolf incident Snape was silly. He trusted a man who was his enemy and went down the tunnel. That makes him all kinds of foolish and silly IMO.
I don't think Snape trusted Black in that situation. He acted foolishly, no doubt, but I think one of his primary motivation was to prevent the Marauders from making fun of him the next morning. If he hadn't gone to the tunnel, James and Sirius would have probably ridiculed him for being a coward, IMO. And we all know how Snape reacts when he is called a coward. :)

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But that's for Snape. Lily was his friend, let me leave the "best" . Even as a friend, why even as a casual acquaintance she, I feel should have shown some concern at least for Snape.

He had gone into the tunnel and he could have been killed or bitten, both horrible prospects. If my friend had escaped narrowly from a great danger even if it was his own making, I know how I would react; that would nothing like Lily did IMO.

I would fall over my friend, ask him how he was and then I would give the shouting of a lifetime and tell him, he almost deserved to be bitten for following the words of an enemy of all people and demand a promise from him that he would use the brains he had been given never be so foolish ever again. In short I would be worried and frantic for my friend, even though he was silly enough to follow the words of a boy who was his enemy.

Even if he was not my best friend, I would still be concerned first and then tell him to be careful in the future.
I think exactly the same. :tu:

SWM also emphasizes the fact that Lily was at that point not particularly concerned with Snape's well-being. She came to his defense, of course, but she didn't take the curse off her friend and actually didn't pay him a lot of attention. It's like she came to defend him because she had to, out some sort of obligation, not because she really cared, IMO.

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3) The SWM is where they broke off. Lily by that time had moved so far away from Snape that Snape was sitting all by himself and Lily had made other friends, presumably Mary McDonald and others.
This is very important. At that time they are still friends, if I am not mistaken. Yet neither of them approached the other right after the exam to find out how they had done. Lily immediately left the Hall with a gang of girls, Snape wandered off alone.

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Lily broke off from Snape, but his place IMO was never filled. We don't see that in canon.
Well, we see that she was very friendly with Sirius. Probably, he was the one to have filled the void. Although Sirius himself rarely mentions Lily in his conversations with Harry. It's all about James all the time. So I agree with you. No mention of Lily's other friends in canon.

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4) The reason I feel Lily broke off with Snape when she did was to a very large extent because she fell in love with James, and Snape's friendship with the DEs.

Lily I think fell in love with James (and I do believe it was love not attraction or infatuation); I think she fought it, and her very conflicted feelings continued until she probably gave in and went out with James.
This is where I have to disagree because I see Lily's feelings for James at the moment of her break-up with Snape as nothing more than a superficial attraction. He was popular, attractive and he had been chasing her for quite some time, so naturally she found herself susceptible to his charms. But love... Lily and James didn't seem to have interacted with each other all that much at the moment, so I don't think true, genuine love could have come at that time.

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The werewolf incident is Lily appreciating James until Snape called her on it. Then she backed off, calling James and arrogant toerag. Lily's feelings came out in the werewolf incident, something Snape also noticed and was terribly jealous, but he also believed her when she called James names and went away;
I think Snape was extremely stupid and immature in that situation. That he didn't even listen to Lily when she expressed her concern makes me wonder if he ever loved her at all. He was certainly not interested in what she had to say. This speaks volumes.

Come to think of it, she was not particularly interested in what he had to say either. Yeah, I think their friendship was doomed. :shrug:

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but I think their friendship continued to form huge cracks and break at all places and in the SWM, it was only a formality I felt; it was not a fight, trashing out issues and then ending the friendship, but it was like a dying man who finally breathed his last, much to the relief of one person and much to the dismay of the other.
:agree:

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The most telling thing for me about Lily's friendship with Snape is the period. The sheer amount of time they spent together, 27/7, 365 days in a year for over 6 years, cannot happen, if Lily was constantly and for "Years" making excuses for him.
Yes, I think this is one of the few arguments in favour of their deep and sincere friendship.

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So if she was really cut up with Snape for a long time, then that friendship would not have stood for such a long time and neither would Snape be so much in love with her, if they were only arguing and Lily was only making excuses for for years.
I think Snape's feelings for Lily had more to do with his guilt and idealizing the memory of the dead than with actual love, but this is only IMO.

Quote:

So I concluded that Snape and Lily did have a good friendship, and Lily was okay with Snape's fascination with the dark arts as well. She did not like his friendship with Avery and Mulciber; she was always against it; she did not like Voldemort (DUH! naturally :D) and she did not like Snape meeting with people who were openly planning to join Voldemort, but I don't think she was against his reading the dark arts (we don't see her aversion for the dark arts at all IMO).
Actually we do see her aversion for the Dark Arts. According to Lily, the most important difference between the Marauders' pranks and those of Mulciber and Avery is the fact that the Marauders do not use Dark Magic. So this makes them merely "toerags" whereas Snape's pals are "evil" and "creepy".

The_Green_Woods July 18th, 2008 2:25 pm

Re: Snape and Lily: Joint Character Analysis v.3
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by ComicBookWorm (Post 5088100)
Well since JKR said Lily might have been interested in Snape romantically had he not been attracted to the Dark Arts, I find it hard to believe she thought it was ok for Snape to be practicing the Dark Arts.

But Snape was not practising the dark arts. Lily never once says so. And JKR did not show it on page either IMO. Lily says she hates Snape's friendship with Avery and Mulciber, who were practising dark arts IMO. Her accusation is Snape is friends with Avery and Mulciber and she "knows" that Snape is going to join Voldemort after school. Not even that he has joined or that he plays tricks on Mary McDonald that was evil.

Sirius (GOF) says Snape came to School knowing more curses than half the 7th years. That is an abnormal amount of magic for a 11 year old to know. I assumed from that Snape was fascinated by the dark arts from day one. And naturally he would have told Lily about it, because he did not at that time think he would need to hide it from her, anymore than he thought that telling Lily, a muggleborn to be sorted into Slytherin should be avoided, that there was a chance she would face a lot of prejudice IMO. In fact he wanted Lily desperately there, because he thought that was the best House. Likewise too, I think he must have told her about the magics he thought were good, bad and ugly IMO.

Lily once she came to School, would have known in her first year itself about "Evil Slytherin" and how they were all into the "Dark Arts" IMO.

The friendship did not break in year 1, 2, 3 and 4. So I assumed that Lily was okay with Snape's fascination for the dark arts, just like some people like to read a lot of gory stuff or watch horrible things on TV or on video, but by itself that does not make them bad or evil IMO.

arithmancer July 18th, 2008 2:57 pm

Re: Snape and Lily: Joint Character Analysis v.3
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by severusfreak (Post 5088084)
where does it say lily was intrestied in james before her and snapes falling out ? as a matter of fact I think she referred to him as a toerag .

It is not unheard of boys (or girls) saying things of that sort about someone they are interested in, before a relationship develops, or when sucha developmemt seems unlikely. :)

If you care, Rowling hinted as much in an interview.

wickedwickedboy July 18th, 2008 3:36 pm

Re: Snape and Lily: Joint Character Analysis v.3
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by The_Green_Woods (Post 5088126)
But Snape was not practising the dark arts. Lily never once says so. And JKR did not show it on page either IMO. Lily says she hates Snape's friendship with Avery and Mulciber, who were practising dark arts IMO. Her accusation is Snape is friends with Avery and Mulciber and she "knows" that Snape is going to join Voldemort after school. Not even that he has joined or that he plays tricks on Mary McDonald that was evil.

Sirius (GOF) says Snape came to School knowing more curses than half the 7th years. That is an abnormal amount of magic for a 11 year old to know. I assumed from that Snape was fascinated by the dark arts from day one. And naturally he would have told Lily about it, because he did not at that time think he would need to hide it from her, anymore than he thought that telling Lily, a muggleborn to be sorted into Slytherin should be avoided, that there was a chance she would face a lot of prejudice IMO. In fact he wanted Lily desperately there, because he thought that was the best House. Likewise too, I think he must have told her about the magics he thought were good, bad and ugly IMO.

Lily once she came to School, would have known in her first year itself about "Evil Slytherin" and how they were all into the "Dark Arts" IMO.

The friendship did not break in year 1, 2, 3 and 4. So I assumed that Lily was okay with Snape's fascination for the dark arts, just like some people like to read a lot of gory stuff or watch horrible things on TV or on video, but by itself that does not make them bad or evil IMO.

I respect your view, but that is not the reasoning JKR appeared to follow.

Snape liked the dark arts; Lily was his friend, therefore Lily liked the dark arts.
Snape liked Mulciber; Lily was his friend, therefore Lily liked Mulciber.
Lily was casually friendly with James, Snape was her friend, thus Snape was casually friendly with James.

See the problem?

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Originally Posted by Raelis (Post 5088051)
What difference does it make if he was physically unharmed or not? If Lily were a loyal friend, she would have been concerned anyway, considering that her "best friend" had almost got himself killed. She seemed totally indifferent to the fact, IMO. I cannot imagine Hermione acting the same way.

I respect your view, but seeing as we came in on the middle of the conversation, how do you know Lily did not ask Snape if he was all right earlier on in their discussion? In fact, wouldn't it be reasonable to assume that was the first thing that she would ask?

ComicBookWorm July 18th, 2008 3:39 pm

Re: Snape and Lily: Joint Character Analysis v.3
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by The_Green_Woods (Post 5088126)
The friendship did not break in year 1, 2, 3 and 4. So I assumed that Lily was okay with Snape's fascination for the dark arts, just like some people like to read a lot of gory stuff or watch horrible things on TV or on video, but by itself that does not make them bad or evil IMO.

Or perhaps she didn't like it at all, but was trying to influence him to stop. JKR did tell us that it was his attraction to the Dark Arts that Lily didn't like. And had he not been so inclined, Lily might (and this is a conditional what if) have been attracted to him romantically.

We do know he created a dark curse, Sectumsempra, so he was actively dabbling. Snape, himself, called it Dark Magic. And we were told in DH that George's ear wouldn't heal because it was a Dark Curse.

starchica July 18th, 2008 6:25 pm

Re: Snape and Lily: Joint Character Analysis v.3
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by ComicBookWorm
We do know he created a dark curse, Sectumsempra, so he was actively dabbling. Snape, himself, called it a Dark Magic. And we were told in DH that George's ear wouldn't heal because it was a Dark Curse.

I don't believe that Snape actually created Sectumsempra, but merely used it. Harry says as such after Hermione criticizes it; something to the effect of, "The Prince wasn't saying this was a really good curse; for all we know, he could've just been making note of something that had been used against him." Snape did create the Levicorpus spell, and Harry says that in the place where the Prince wrote it, there were lots of crossings-out and scribbles. Where Harry found Sectumsempra, all he found written there was "For Enemies". I don't think any of the spells that Snape created can be considered Dark Magic-- they're all just minor hexes and jinxes, IIRC. However, I do think that he must have used Dark Spells during his time at Hogwarts, though-- In Deathly Hallows, Lupin says that Sectumsempra was "a favorite" of Snape's-- how would Lupin know this unless he had seen Snape use it several times?

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Originally Posted by The Green Woods
I assumed that Lily was okay with Snape's fascination for the dark arts, just like some people like to read a lot of gory stuff or watch horrible things on TV or on video, but by itself that does not make them bad or evil IMO.

For me, Lily and Snape's relationship during their first few years at Hogwarts is comparable to Dumbledore and Grindelwald's relationship during Grindelwald's rise to power. Both Lily and Dumbledore recognize that what their friend is straying down a dark path, but because of their affection (romantic or otherwise) for him, cannot bring themselves to do anything about it. I don't think that either Dumbledore or Lily, at the time, supported the Dark Arts and what their best friend was doing, but they turned a blind eye, even as those all around them whispered of the danger. (Lily says that she's been "making excuses for years", just as Dumbledore had done for Grindelwald.) But ultimately, they realized that this problem wasn't going to go away; they had to do something about it. They each confronted their friend, and even though they cared deeply for that person, both Lily and Dumbledore recognized that this was a problem that needed to be taken care of.

meesha1971 July 18th, 2008 8:14 pm

Re: Snape and Lily: Joint Character Analysis v.3
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by wickedwickedboy (Post 5088164)
I respect your view, but that is not the reasoning JKR appeared to follow.

Snape liked the dark arts; Lily was his friend, therefore Lily liked the dark arts.
Snape liked Mulciber; Lily was his friend, therefore Lily liked Mulciber.
Lily was casually friendly with James, Snape was her friend, thus Snape was casually friendly with James.

See the problem?

Exactly. That type of circular logic generally falls apart because it fails to take in the complexity of the human mind, IMO. We are shown on page that Lily did not like or approve of the Dark Arts - she says herself that what Avery and Mulciber did was evil. This was a point of contention between Snape and Lily - I think that the memories Harry viewed clearly showed that to be an ongoing issue between them.

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I respect your view, but seeing as we came in on the middle of the conversation, how do you know Lily did not ask Snape if he was all right earlier on in their discussion? In fact, wouldn't it be reasonable to assume that was the first thing that she would ask?
I agree. I think it is clear that Snape is all right - he has no injuries. And this is a few days after that incident. The time for asking if he was all right was the night that it happened or the next day. We weren't shown the werewolf incident or anything that happened immediately after. We only see what happened a few days later - well after it had been ascertained that Snape was all right.

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Originally Posted by ComicBookWorm (Post 5088165)
Or perhaps she didn't like it at all, but was trying to influence him to stop. JKR did tell us that it was his attraction to the Dark Arts that Lily didn't like. And had he not been so inclined, Lily might (and this is a conditional what if) have been attracted to him romantically.

We do know he created a dark curse, Sectumsempra, so he was actively dabbling. Snape, himself, called it a Dark Magic. And we were told in DH that George's ear wouldn't heal because it was a Dark Curse.

Exactly. :agree:

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Originally Posted by starchica (Post 5088367)
I don't believe that Snape actually created Sectumsempra, but merely used it. Harry says as such after Hermione criticizes it; something to the effect of, "The Prince wasn't saying this was a really good curse; for all we know, he could've just been making note of something that had been used against him." Snape did create the Levicorpus spell, and Harry says that in the place where the Prince wrote it, there were lots of crossings-out and scribbles. Where Harry found Sectumsempra, all he found written there was "For Enemies". I don't think any of the spells that Snape created can be considered Dark Magic-- they're all just minor hexes and jinxes, IIRC. However, I do think that he must have used Dark Spells during his time at Hogwarts, though-- In Deathly Hallows, Lupin says that Sectumsempra was "a favorite" of Snape's-- how would Lupin know this unless he had seen Snape use it several times?

Snape admitted that he had invented the spells in the potions book at the end of HBP - specifically, Sectumsempra and Levicorpus. Those were the two spells that Harry tried to use against him - at which point, Snape went into a rage because Harry was trying to use his own spells against him.

HBPSectum — !”

Snape flicked his wand and the curse was repelled yet again; but Harry was mere feet away now and he could see Snape’s face clearly at last: He was no longer sneering or jeering; the blazing flames showed a face full of rage. Mustering all his powers of concentration, Harry thought, Levi

“No, Potter!” screamed Snape. There was a loud BANG and Harry was soaring backward, hitting the ground hard again, and this time his wand flew out of his hand. He could hear Hagrid yelling and Fang howling as Snape closed in and looked down on him where he lay, wandless and defenseless as Dumbledore had been. Snape’s pale face, illuminated by the flaming cabin, was suffused with hatred just as it had been before he had cursed Dumbledore.

“You dare use my own spells against me, Potter? It was I who invented them — I, the Half-Blood Prince! And you’d turn my inventions on me, like your filthy father, would you? I don’t think so … no!”


Snape is specifically referring to Sectumsempra and Levicorpus - the spells that Harry had just tried to use against him. So he did create Sectumsempra as well as use it extensively enough for people to consider it his "specialty" - as Lupin points out in DH. Snape also defines Sectumsempra as Dark Magic after Harry used it against Malfoy and Molly Weasley confirmed that in DH - she couldn't make George's ear grow back because it had been cursed off with Dark Magic.

Other than that, I agree with you. Snape was famous for his fascination with the Dark Arts at school and he knew more curses in his first year than half the seventh years - both stated directly on page. IMO, he wouldn't have been famous for it if he wasn't actually using those curses against others - which demonstrated his love for the Dark Arts. Eventually, Sectumsempra became known as his "specialty" - again, it wouldn't be considered his specialty if he hadn't been using it against people, IMO.

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For me, Lily and Snape's relationship during their first few years at Hogwarts is comparable to Dumbledore and Grindelwald's relationship during Grindelwald's rise to power. Both Lily and Dumbledore recognize that what their friend is straying down a dark path, but because of their affection (romantic or otherwise) for him, cannot bring themselves to do anything about it. I don't think that either Dumbledore or Lily, at the time, supported the Dark Arts and what their best friend was doing, but they turned a blind eye, even as those all around them whispered of the danger. (Lily says that she's been "making excuses for years", just as Dumbledore had done for Grindelwald.) But ultimately, they realized that this problem wasn't going to go away; they had to do something about it. They each confronted their friend, and even though they cared deeply for that person, both Lily and Dumbledore recognized that this was a problem that needed to be taken care of.
I agree. It is an interesting parallel and Dumbledore does give some insight as to what Lily went through with that whole situation with Snape. She knew in her heart that Snape was heading down a very dark path, but she didn't want to admit it or believe it so she made excuses for him for years - which she admits when she finally ends the friendship. The incident with SWM is what finally opens her eyes - she can't lie to herself anymore - she can't pretend anymore. It's a very difficult situation for her, but she really didn't have any other choice, IMO. There comes a point when you have to put what's best for you first and get yourself out of a bad situation. The only thing I would fault Lily for is that it took her so long to come to her senses and stop pretending - though I think her youth and naivete have to be taken into consideration as well so I don't fault her too much for that. It was an important lesson for her.

Dumbledore was in a very similar situation with Grindelwald, but he wasn't able to make that decision himself and the result was the death of his sister. I find the parallel interesting because, as powerful as Dumbledore was, he wasn't strong enough emotionally to get himself out of that bad situation before such a horrible tragedy occurred. And he never really recovered from that - spending the rest of his life alone, never finding love again. I think it says a lot about Lily that she was strong enough emotionally to remove herself from such a bad situation before a horrible tragedy occurred and she was able to move on and put it behind her - eventually falling in love and having a happy life.

The_Green_Woods July 19th, 2008 11:02 am

Re: Snape and Lily: Joint Character Analysis v.3
 
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Originally Posted by Raelis (Post 5088122)
And we all know how Snape reacts when he is called a coward. :)

LOL we do! :D

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SWM also emphasises the fact that Lily was at that point not particularly concerned with Snape's well-being. She came to his defence, of course, but she didn't take the curse off her friend and actually didn't pay him a lot of attention. It's like she came to defend him because she had to, out some sort of obligation, not because she really cared, IMO.
At that time, the friendship was practically over. Lily came to Snape's defence, but was it actually a defence? It was more of shouting at James and trying to tell him that he'd better behave and get his swollen head reduced or some such thing, which was almost directions and practical hints LOL to James, if he ever wanted to go out with Lily IMO.

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This is very important. At that time they are still friends, if I am not mistaken. Yet neither of them approached the other right after the exam to find out how they had done. Lily immediately left the Hall with a gang of girls, Snape wandered off alone.
At this time they were not friends I feel, only they had not broken off formally, which Lily did that night IMO.

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Well, we see that she was very friendly with Sirius. Probably, he was the one to have filled the void. Although Sirius himself rarely mentions Lily in his conversations with Harry. It's all about James all the time. So I agree with you. No mention of Lily's other friends in canon.
Yes, she was, but I don't think anyone took Snape's place, another indication that she was also really and truly into the friendship and that even though she broke off, and it was her choice, I think she felt Snape to be a friend she could not replace in her life. There were no best friends for Lily after Snape IMO.

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This is where I have to disagree because I see Lily's feelings for James at the moment of her break-up with Snape as nothing more than a superficial attraction. He was popular, attractive and he had been chasing her for quite some time, so naturally she found herself susceptible to his charms. But love... Lily and James didn't seem to have interacted with each other all that much at the moment, so I don't think true, genuine love could have come at that time.
I actually saw it like Hermione's very genuine affection for Ron; in Hermione's case it was Ron's immaturity that was the problem, here Lily holds in her genuine affection for James, until she is sure he had "changed". I don't know if he did, I actually do not not think he did, but Lily apparently thought he did, perhaps because like Sirius said, they never took Snape on dates and hexed him in front of her, and so Lily never knew about it; perhaps they never hexed also in front of Lily, and so she never knew about the Marauders hexing others as well IMO.

James already had fallen for Lily, and I think Lily reciprocated his feelings only refused to act on it.

Now I think the reasons are slightly more personal and complicated than what is given on page. This is of course only my understanding of what I feel about the gap.

The war between James, Sirius and Snape IMO was going on for quite some time. Now when Lily was friends with Snape, she would have naturally taken his side against James & Co., and after she broke off, perhaps she was waiting until James would stop fighting with Snape for her to agree to go out with him.

Like James's saving of Snape, which Lily appreciated so much because James was saving a boy who was his enemy. Like wise I think she held out until James stopped hexing Snape and when she was sure that happened, she gave in and went out with james IMO.

Of course we know that Snape was a special case, but we also know that Lily did not know about it. So that's my theory about it. :)

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I think Snape's feelings for Lily had more to do with his guilt and idealising the memory of the dead than with actual love, but this is only IMO.
His love, guilt and shame all played a part IMO.

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Actually we do see her aversion for the Dark Arts. According to Lily, the most important difference between the Marauders' pranks and those of Mulciber and Avery is the fact that the Marauders do not use Dark Magic. So this makes them merely "toerags" whereas Snape's pals are "evil" and "creepy".
This still means that Lily did not like the practise of dark magic, she never accuses Snape of practising it; she dislikes him hanging out with those who do IMO.

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Originally Posted by wickedwickedboy (Post 5088164)
I respect your view, but that is not the reasoning JKR appeared to follow.

Snape liked the dark arts; Lily was his friend, therefore Lily liked the dark arts.
Snape liked Mulciber; Lily was his friend, therefore Lily liked Mulciber.
Lily was casually friendly with James, Snape was her friend, thus Snape was casually friendly with James.

See the problem?

:lol: I did not mean it like this at all.

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I respect your view, but seeing as we came in on the middle of the conversation, how do you know Lily did not ask Snape if he was all right earlier on in their discussion? In fact, wouldn't it be reasonable to assume that was the first thing that she would ask?
Because Lily starts about the werewolf incident only after we cam in. She says something like "And you are really ungrateful; I know what happened that night and Potter saved you....." (not the exact words)

What happened that night in the werewolf memory was discussed only after we came in.

And the words "the other night" IMO means that the werewolf incident happened sometime ago, and Snape was keeping his promise of not telling anyone, but Lily apparently knew from somewhere else. Now, even after she knew that Snape had been saved from a danger that could have killed him, she never seeks him out and asks him if he was alright. That is another thing that tells me Lily was certainly not a good friend from around that time IMO.

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Originally Posted by ComicBookWorm (Post 5088165)
Or perhaps she didn't like it at all, but was trying to influence him to stop.

But for how long? The period of their friendship seems abnormally wrong for 2 persons one who loves the other friend and the other who is trying to help. But help for how long? And if Lily wanted to really help a friend in need, I think she should have hung around when Snape needed her the most and that was right when she broke off her friendship actually IMO.

The entire post is my opinion only.

ComicBookWorm July 19th, 2008 11:05 am

Re: Snape and Lily: Joint Character Analysis v.3
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by The_Green_Woods (Post 5089035)
At that time, the friendship was practically over. Lily came to Snape's defence, but was it actually a defence? It was more of shouting at James and trying to tell him that he'd better behave and get his swollen head reduced or some such thing, which was almost directions and practical hints LOL to James, if he ever wanted to go out with Lily IMO.

What could she have been expected to do--start a hex fight with James and Sirius? Shoot first and ask questions later? She did what would be expected--try to get them to stop. And then Snape insulted her with the worst insult possible, while she was trying to help him.

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Originally Posted by The_Green_Woods (Post 5089035)
But for how long? The period of their friendship seems abnormally wrong for 2 persons one who loves the other friend and the other who is trying to help. But help for how long? And if Lily wanted to really help a friend in need, I think she should have hung around when Snape needed her the most and that was right when she broke off her friendship actually IMO.

They were friends for five or six years. How long was she supposed to put with it? Again, this seems to blame Lily for Snape's bad choices.

wickedwickedboy July 19th, 2008 11:30 am

Re: Snape and Lily: Joint Character Analysis v.3
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by The_Green_Woods (Post 5089035)
:lol: I did not mean it like this at all.

Oh, I misinterpreted your words then. What did you mean? You know there used to be a theory that Lily was a Death Eater. JKR addressed this question on her website: Was Lily a Death Eater? Her only response was: "How Dare You!"

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Because Lily starts about the werewolf incident only after we cam in. She says something like "And you are really ungrateful; I know what happened that night and Potter saved you....." (not the exact words)
I agree, however, I had forgotten it had happened sometime before. If he is sitting there looking and acting just fine, why would she ask him if he was okay? She knew that James saved him from harm and that all that happened was that he saw whatever was down there. Nonetheless, I agree with your conclusion. I too feel the relationship had been on the rocks for a long time prior to that conversation.

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But for how long? The period of their friendship seems abnormally wrong for 2 persons one who loves the other friend and the other who is trying to help. But help for how long? And if Lily wanted to really help a friend in need, I think she should have hung around when Snape needed her the most and that was right when she broke off her friendship actually IMO.
I respect your view, but I felt like she had remained friends believing she could help. When she ended the friendship, I think she felt Snape was beyond her help. In SWM, his friends were not influencing him to call her a Filthy Little Mudblood and to use a dark curse; he did those things of his own accord and I think she had to admit to herself that he wasn't just influenced by Mulciber and Avery, but rather, he was behaving just like them and shared their beliefs. Those were the things she accused him of in the end - blood prejudice and his desire to become a Death Eater - basically being on the dark path (you have chosen your path and I've chosen mine").

ComicBookWorm July 19th, 2008 11:46 am

Re: Snape and Lily: Joint Character Analysis v.3
 
And all I'm seeing are suggestions that by staying around that long it indicated that she approved of his actions, or, conversely, that she didn't try hard enough or stay around long enough. Neither are fair to Lily since it was Snape making the mistakes.

eliza101 July 19th, 2008 4:22 pm

Re: Snape and Lily: Joint Character Analysis v.3
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by ComicBookWorm (Post 5089051)
And all I'm seeing are suggustions that by staying around that long it indicated that she approved of his actions, or, conversely, it meant that she didn't try hard enough. Neither are fair to Lily since it was Snape making the mistakes.

Couldn't agree more.

wickedwickedboy July 26th, 2008 4:09 am

Re: Snape and Lily: Joint Character Analysis v.3
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by ComicBookWorm (Post 5089051)
And all I'm seeing are suggustions that by staying around it long indicated that she approved of his actions, or, conversely, that she didn't try hard enough or stay around long enough. Neither are fair to Lily since it was Snape making the mistakes.

I would have to agree. We learned a lot about young Snape and I think it helped to show the difficulties that Lily faced and why she felt she had to pretend and make excuses as she said in DH -TPT. According to Sirius Snape came in knowing more curses than some 7th years, and Lily didn't consider their friendship moving into other channels becaue of Snape's interest in dark arts and acts according to JKR. In OOTP in my opinion, we saw Snape elect to use a dark curse (modulated form of Sectumsempra) and he called Lily a Mudblood and we found he hexed James at every opportunity in 7th. The latter was not said in such a way to make it seem as though that was something new and that matches what Dumbledore said about the situation being like what it was between Harry and Draco. In HBP we learned that the spell James used was invented by Snape, which had to have been introduced to someone by Snape, the inventor. and I feel it is reasonable that Snape and his friends were he first to use the spell on others. Also, after HBP, I thought that the Spell Snape used in OOTP was so controlled, he must have used it quite often. This I felt was confirmed in DH when Lupin said it was Snape's favorite. Then in DH, we found that Snape finds it just a laugh when others are being bullied with Dark Magic by his friends and he confirmed Lupin and Sirius' earlier assertion that he'd been following the Mauraders around, potentially to get them expelled. I felt that Sirius' assertion that Snape was up to his ears in the dark arts also telling in that it appeared to be as well known about him as it was about Mulciber and Avery, his friends. That was another thing confirmed in DH - Snape had friends apart from Lily. Finally in DH we learn that Snape was highly jealous of James, aimo.

So I believe Lily was making a lot of excuses and pretending that Snape was the friend she knew - not the person who was the Mulciber and Avery and participated in the things they did like calling others Mudblood. I feel she convinced herself that Snape's behavior in that regard was totally a result of their influence. I believe that would make Lily's life difficult - and that is apart from the fact that they were in rival houses. That is not to say that Snape had no difficulties associated with his friendship, but just considering Lily's point of view. I feel that JKR has made it plain that Lily was opposed to all dark interests that were not associated with the defensive and so I feel she would find the friendship very troublesome. In the end, she ended the friendship giving us still more information; that Snape had been calling others Mudblood and that Lily had suspected Snape was planning to join Voldemort with his friends. In my judgment, it was Snape's actions and behaivor which allowed her to reach that conclusion. So I would agree that she did not approve of his dark interests and acts or his taking a blood purist stance; and I also feel she gave it a very good go, perhaps a bit too long for her personal mental welfare, but I believe she made a very good attempt at the friendship while trying to help Snape see the light.

The_Green_Woods July 26th, 2008 1:27 pm

Re: Snape and Lily: Joint Character Analysis v.3
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by ComicBookWorm (Post 5089036)
What could she have been expected to do--start a hex fight with James and Sirius? Shoot first and ask questions later? She did what would be expected--try to get them to stop. And then Snape insulted her with the worst insult possible, while she was trying to help him.

She did not start anything because she, by that time did not care either about Snape or the friendship was the point I was trying to make. Lily was not a friend in the SWM was what I was trying to say in my previous posts. And I certainly don't hold it against her; she was not Snape's mother that she had to keep trying. There was no obligation for her and on her part to keep a friendship she did not want.

IMO by the SWM Lily had moved so far away from Snape, so much that the friendship was only on paper.

Snape after the DADA exam comes out all alone and sits all by himself. That is also an indication all was not well with the 2 previously best friends IMO.

Which also I don't hold against her BTW.

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They were friends for five or six years. How long was she supposed to put with it? Again, this seems to blame Lily for Snape's bad choices.
Of course she need not put up with it. And she did not either IMO. And I don't think I am blaming Lily for Snape's bad choices.

All I am saying is

1) Snape and Lily were very good friends for 6 years.

2) Lily IMO certainly was not trying to keep Snape on the good side for all the 6 years.

3) I think Lily was very much aware of Snape's dark arts obssession and was pretty much okay with it, because he was only reading, not practising. We NEVER see Lily accuse Snape of practising the dark arts.

4) She moved away from Snape starting around the werewolf incident and broke away after the SWM.

5 She was until then really, really good friends with Snape.

6) There was no other best friend mentioned in the books for Lily after Snape IMO. So, I also think his place was not filled once Lily broke off with Snape.

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Originally Posted by wickedwickedboy (Post 5089044)
Oh, I misinterpreted your words then. What did you mean? You know there used to be a theory that Lily was a Death Eater. JKR addressed this question on her website: Was Lily a Death Eater? Her only response was: "How Dare You!"

I certainly did not say Lily was a death eater. Where did I say or imply that? Snape was attracted to the dark arts; there are criminal layerws who take that up as a profession, because crime fascinates them; they are not evil. Reading about the dark arts does not make one evil. To show a person is good I don;t think they should make a show of shunning the dark arts openly.

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I agree, however, I had forgotten it had happened sometime before. If he is sitting there looking and acting just fine, why would she ask him if he was okay?
I respectfully disagree with you on this. IMO the way Lily acted was not that of a friend, let alone a best friend. If someone had a close shave with death, I think their family and friends would first check them out for any injuries and then ask them if they are okay.

Lily on the other hand, was moving away from Snape. So she did not even bother to call on Snape and ask him if he was okay after the werewolf incident, which she would have had she beena friend at that time.

Not only she does not bother to see if Snape was alright on her own, she also never asks after him, when she see him in the memory we saw IMO.

ComicBookWorm July 26th, 2008 4:06 pm

Re: Snape and Lily: Joint Character Analysis v.3
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by The_Green_Woods (Post 5095262)
3) I think Lily was very much aware of Snape's dark arts obssession and was pretty much okay with it, because he was only reading, not practising. We NEVER see Lily accuse Snape of practising the dark arts.

This goes back to the fact that we didn't get to see every moment of their friendship. She did tell him that was Avery and Mulciber did was evil. And it seems very likely that they used some Dark Magic on Mary because why else would she describe it as evil. So I don't think she was ok with it.

We'll go back to that boyfriend I had that was getting deeper and deeper into drugs. I was not ok with it and kept after him to give it up. I felt like I was the only decent person he knew, but eventually I had to give it since it threatened to pull me in.

JKR told us that Lily might have become romantically interested in Snape had he not been involved with the Dark Arts. I would think that would be enough to tell us that Lily wasn't ok with Snape's involvement with the Dark Arts.

The_Green_Woods July 26th, 2008 5:12 pm

Re: Snape and Lily: Joint Character Analysis v.3
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by ComicBookWorm (Post 5095298)
This goes back to the fact that we didn't get to see every moment of their friendship. She did tell him that was Avery and Mulciber did was evil. And it seems very likely that they used some Dark Magic on Mary because why else would she describe it as evil. So I don't think she was ok with it.

I agree, we don't get to see a lot of the friendship. I make my point on only one thing.

Lily and Snape were friends for 6 years. They met before Lily got her letter, perhaps when they were 9 or 10; they broke up when they were 15.

They were also together all the time, and Snape came to the school knowing more about curses and stuff, than 7th years.

All this is canon IMO.

I am assuming that Snape did not start reading the dark arts only in his fifth year. I think Snape was into reading almost everything there was at his home and I think that's where he got the dark arts books. The Snapes don't seem to be able to afford buying books. In Hogwarts, I don't know if there were books on dark arts and if Snape could access them. If there were books, they would most likely be in the restricted section, and Snape without invisibility cloaks would not IMO be able to access them.

This brings another theory. If Snape as I think he did, got his books on the dark arts from his home, then did Eileen Snape read them as well? How did he get books on the dark arts anyway?

Okay, since I assumed he was into reading about all kinds of magic, I thought Lily would also automatically know about them. She seems to know everything (even about Avery and Mulciber).

She was not okay with the use of dark magic. I never said so.

I said she was okay with reading about it. That was why I gave the example of a criminal lawyer or people who love to see ghost movies or read gory stuff. By itself it does not make them good, bad or evil. It may harm them when they try to experiment in crime, ghosts or anything.

Like wise I really don't think it wrong or think it makes Lily look bad just because she was okay with Snape reading about the dark arts. That does not mean, she would be okay with him practising it. That was what I said and this is what I meant. It would also be okay, if like Hermione would have, Lily too, would read along with Snape about the dark arts. I in fact think she did. And I think reading about dark arts does not make anyone evil, not Snape, not Lily IMO.

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We'll go back to that boyfriend I had that was getting deeper and deeper into drugs. I was not ok with it and kept after him to give it up. I felt like I was the only decent person he knew, but eventually I had to give it since it threatened to pull me in.
I agree with this as well. Lily was under no obligation to keep a friendship she did not want, for any reason, and we saw she did break it.

What I am trying to say is that just because she broke it citing her "Inner Eye" that Snape would surely become a DE (she was right as well I suppose) some 2 years into the future, it did not make Snape as a dark arts practitioner. Because he did not practise the dark arts in School. That is not canon IMO.

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JKR told us that Lily might have become romantically interested in Snape had he not been involved with the Dark Arts. I would think that would be enough to tell us that Lily wasn't ok with Snape's involvement with the Dark Arts.
I saw the intense look and resultant blush as an evidence of Lily's knowledge of Snape's feelings.

I also think Lily could not handle it and this could also be another reason she decided to move away from Snape, because she had or was falling in love with James and she could not give what Snape was hoping she would give him IMO.

wickedwickedboy July 26th, 2008 5:36 pm

Re: Snape and Lily: Joint Character Analysis v.3
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by The_Green_Woods (Post 5095262)
I certainly did not say Lily was a death eater. Where did I say or imply that?

You didn't :lol:. I was just telling you something funny JKR had said on the topic.

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Snape was attracted to the dark arts; there are criminal layerws who take that up as a profession, because crime fascinates them; they are not evil. Reading about the dark arts does not make one evil. To show a person is good I don;t think they should make a show of shunning the dark arts openly.
I feel this is distinctive. Criminal lawyers, attempting to understand the criminal mind in order to defend their prosecution and convince a jury, will study and/or learn about criminal behavior from experts. However, I feel Snape's purpose was evident enough to Lily that she did not see Snape's fascination as a good thing. That is, Snape was not studying them to enlarge his academic scope or in order to fight against them in her eyes (find defenses for them) or I feel she would have been fine with it - even encouraged him. However, as JKR said, Lily didn't see her friendship with Snape becoming anything more due to his being drawn to loathsome dark arts friends and acts. Note, JKR indicated that Lily found the things Snape was drawn to in relation to the dark arts loathsome, that means she was averse to them, imo, based on what she felt the purpose was behind Snape's fascination.

I agree with you that to show someone is good they do not have to openly shun the dark arts and that whole way of thinking. However, in the case of Snape, he openly called other's Mudblood, and blood purism is largely what Voldemort's evil regime rested upon. Additionally, Snape invented dark curses and practiced them (Sectumsempra was his favorite - DH/Fallen Warrior; he knew more dark curses than many 7th years coming in - GoF; and shown in SWM, aimo). JKR also indicated that Snape was planning to join Voldemort as he wished to be an impressive person and he believed it would impress Lily. Lily accused him of this in DH-TPT, so apparently Snape's acts and behavior led her to believe what JKR said was true. Thus, in my judgment, Snape was openly showing than he embraced the dark arts, rather than merely studying them for academic or defensive purposes.

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Lily on the other hand, was moving away from Snape. So she did not even bother to call on Snape and ask him if he was okay after the werewolf incident, which she would have had she beena friend at that time.
While I would not be able to agree that Lily didn't ask Snape how he was since we came in on the middle of a conversation; I would agree that at the time of that conversation the friendship was deeply on the rocks. I also agree that by SWM it was all but non existent as she didn't speak to Snape at all throughout the entire scene until he called her a filthy little Mudblood and she told him off.

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Not only she does not bother to see if Snape was alright on her own, she also never asks after him, when she see him in the memory we saw IMO.
Well to be fair, whoever told Lily the story likely told her that James had saved Snape prior to his coming to any harm. She didn't indicate that Snape had been saved from fighting a monster, only that he'd seen what was down there and was rescued from it harming him (DH TPT).

The_Green_Woods July 26th, 2008 6:41 pm

Re: Snape and Lily: Joint Character Analysis v.3
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by wickedwickedboy (Post 5095343)
You didn't :lol:. I was just telling you something funny JKR had said on the topic.

Than I am sorry I misunderstood your comment wicked! :) I was searching in my memory, just where I had implied or said anything that could be construed this way. :)

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I feel this is distinctive. Criminal lawyers, attempting to understand the criminal mind in order to defend their prosecution and convince a jury, will study and/or learn about criminal behavior from experts.
Correct! That is in the muggle world. In the WW, there is no evidence there are places for Higher studies or specialization in a particular trade or craft. I really don't know how it is done and from where people specialize in a particular subject, even the Professors at Hogwarts.

I think they kind of do it on their own or on the job. Which means Snape trying to learn Potions and become an expert at it would try all on his own and learn as he went along IMO.

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However, I feel Snape's purpose was evident enough to Lily that she did not see Snape's fascination as a good thing. That is, Snape was not studying them to enlarge his academic scope or in order to fight against them in her eyes (find defenses for them) or I feel she would have been fine with it - even encouraged him. However, as JKR said, Lily didn't see her friendship with Snape becoming anything more due to his being drawn to loathsome dark arts friends and acts. Note, JKR indicated that Lily found the things Snape was drawn to in relation to the dark arts loathsome, that means she was averse to them, imo, based on what she felt the purpose was behind Snape's fascination.
I think Lily did not see the dark arts as an evil thing; she saw its practise as evil and she throughly disliked Snape's friendship with Avery and Mulciber. That is the only thing we see in canon and she says she is sure that Snape will be a DE. We don't read anything about her aversion to reading the dark arts (not to its practise, please note).

All other things are not canon. Have we anywhere in the books where Lily said she did not like the dark arts, their use and Snape's fascination for them? I just cannot remember.

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I agree with you that to show someone is good they do not have to openly shun the dark arts and that whole way of thinking. However, in the case of Snape, he openly called other's Mudblood, and blood purism is largely what Voldemort's evil regime rested upon.
When Snape called her a Mudblood, the friendship was all but over. That did not influence Lily to end the friendship IMO.

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Additionally, Snape invented dark curses and practiced them (Sectumsempra was his favorite - DH/Fallen Warrior; he knew more dark curses than many 7th years coming in - GoF; and shown in SWM, aimo). JKR also indicated that Snape was planning to join Voldemort as he wished to be an impressive person and he believed it would impress Lily. Lily accused him of this in DH-TPT, so apparently Snape's acts and behavior led her to believe what JKR said was true. Thus, in my judgment, Snape was openly showing than he embraced the dark arts, rather than merely studying them for academic or defensive purposes.
Again that does not make him bad or evil; the man who invented the AK may have been a good man; the man who invented the crucio could have never cast a spell to harm others, that cannot be IMO a criteria to judge a person.

That Snape was planning to join Voldemort was very much in the future. Even Lily says so; she says that Snape can't wait to leave school before joining Voldemort, but where does she say that Snape was practising the dark arts and that she had been fighting with him because of that?

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While I would not be able to agree that Lily didn't ask Snape how he was since we came in on the middle of a conversation; I would agree that at the time of that conversation the friendship was deeply on the rocks. I also agree that by SWM it was all but non existent as she didn't speak to Snape at all throughout the entire scene until he called her a filthy little Mudblood and she told him off.
While we came in the middle of a conversation, the conversation about the memory was started only afetr we came in. That was the time Lily started off about the werewolf incident saying Snape was ungrateful; that she had heard what had happened the other night.

She never asked Snape how he was and nor did she ask him how he entered the tunnel and who told him the way IMO. Those are natural quuestions friends ask. Lily never did. That was why I felt that the friendship started breaking after the werewolf memory, when Lily "heard" about the rescue and started falling for James.

And by the SWM it was all over IMO.

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Well to be fair, whoever told Lily the story likely told her that James had saved Snape prior to his coming to any harm. She didn't indicate that Snape had been saved from fighting a monster, only that he'd seen what was down there and was rescued from it harming him (DH TPT).
Who could have told her? Dumbledore, Sirius, Remus, Peter, James and Snape were the only ones who knew about it, and they were forbidden to talk about it.

Snape, never told her, because Snape tries to speak about the incident in the memory which happened sometime later than the incident itself. So it had to be Dumbledore or one of the Marauders IMO.

wickedwickedboy July 26th, 2008 8:12 pm

Re: Snape and Lily: Joint Character Analysis v.3
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by The_Green_Woods (Post 5095385)
Than I am sorry I misunderstood your comment wicked! :) I was searching in my memory, just where I had implied or said anything that could be construed this way. :)

No worries. :rockon:

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I think Lily did not see the dark arts as an evil thing; she saw its practise as evil and she throughly disliked Snape's friendship with Avery and Mulciber. That is the only thing we see in canon and she says she is sure that Snape will be a DE. We don't read anything about her aversion to reading the dark arts (not to its practise, please note).
I respect your view, but based on my interpretation of canon, Lily despised the dark arts.

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That Snape was planning to join Voldemort was very much in the future. Even Lily says so; she says that Snape can't wait to leave school before joining Voldemort, but where does she say that Snape was practising the dark arts and that she had been fighting with him because of that?
I am afraid that is a misquotation of the canon. Lily does not say Snape can't "wait to leave school" to join, she says "he can't wait to join" as in the present (DH TPT). It was my opinion that if she felt he could not wait to join, then she had a basis for that belief - in my judgment that was Snape's actions and behavior, his viewpoint and outlook as she knew it from being his friend.

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Who could have told her? Dumbledore, Sirius, Remus, Peter, James and Snape were the only ones who knew about it, and they were forbidden to talk about it.

Snape, never told her, because Snape tries to speak about the incident in the memory which happened sometime later than the incident itself. So it had to be Dumbledore or one of the Marauders IMO.
I respect your view, but in my opinion, that is a huge assumption. Snape may have told Mulciber and he told another Slytherin who told a Ravenclaw, who told a Gryffindor, who told Lily. James may have told Peter who let it slip to others and eventually Lily heard. All of that is as plausible as the guess you have made in my judgment - and there are 100's of other scenarios. I don't think we can make a definitive determination as to how Lily found out; rumors spread, that is normal in a school setting. It doesn't make sense for any of the Marauders to have spoken about it; they did not want to have people speculating on what was in the tunnel - it could expose their friend and more importantly, expose what their moonlight wanderings in the evenings were all about.

wingardium713 July 26th, 2008 11:17 pm

Re: Snape and Lily: Joint Character Analysis v.3
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by The_Green_Woods (Post 5095385)
Snape, never told her, because Snape tries to speak about the incident in the memory which happened sometime later than the incident itself. So it had to be Dumbledore or one of the Marauders IMO.

To quote Dumbledore from PS/SS "What happened down in the dungeons between you and Professor Quirrel is a complete secret, so, naturally, the whole school knows." That seemed an even better case for being able to keep the entire thing hush-hush. Apparently, only Dumbledore, Harry and Quirrel should have known. Quirrel was dead and Harry had just awoken from his 3 day coma. Things like that just seem to spread in a school.

Quote:

Originally Posted by The_Green_Woods (Post 5095385)
When Snape called her a Mudblood, the friendship was all but over. That did not influence Lily to end the friendship IMO.

I think that it did influence Lily. I think it was the last straw. I think that before, Lily could always convince herself into thinking that Snape might change. As long as he was friends with her, that showed her that he wasn't a full-blown muggle hater. That he can see at least one muggleborn as worthy. And where he might see one as worthy, he might see others.

In my opinion, when Snape called Lily a Mudblood, she came to think of him as a lost cause. Instead of him getting "better" (better meaning not hating people like her simply because of an accident of birth), he was regressing.

DH, The Prince's Tale
"I never meant to call you a Mudblood, it just---"
"Slipped out?" There was no pity in Lily's voice. "It's too late. I've made excuses for you for years. None of my friends can understand why I even talk to you. You and your precious little Death Eater friends - you see, you don't even deny it!"


To me, this reads that Lily now thinks that Snape has considered her a Mudblood for a while, but had just kept it to himself. This time, when he was angry, his true opinion of her "slipped out" (this is what I think she is thinking not necessarily that it was true of Snape). I think she had been telling her friends that Snape wasn't like the others and using the fact that he was friends with her as proof. He didn't consider her a Mudblood, so he wasn't like Avery and Mulciber. That he was capable of change. Once he did call her a Mudblood, I think she became convinced that she had been wrong all along.

To me, I think that Lily was justified in dropping the friendship. It wasn't like she liked cats and he liked dogs. It wasn't a matter of opinions they differed on. Death Eaters hate muggleborns and she is a muggleborn. They target muggleborns. They harm, torture and kill muggleborns. She can't change the fact that she is muggleborn. She doesn't think that she's done anything wrong by just being muggleborn. So, I think it's pretty tough to be friends with somebody who she thinks hates muggleborns. Now, I don't think that Snape was a DE at that point or that he hates her (and I've actually never detected him being mean to muggleborns. Dean appeared to have been a muggleborn and I don't recall him being especially mean to him (it turns out he was not muggleborn, but Snape wouldn't have known that)), but I think that after he calls her a Mudblood, given all that has gone on before, she just isn't willing to work at the friendship anymore. And I agree that the relationship was already pretty fractured by this point.

I'm not even sure that Snape ever did consider her a Mudblood (obviously, he knew she was a muggleborn, but there is a difference between thinking of somebody as a muggleborn and thinking of them as a Mudblood, IMO). I think that he was angry and hurt at that time and he just thought up the biggest insult he could think of at the time. Unfortunately, given what they had been arguing about, that was the worst thing he could call her. And that was that.

wickedwickedboy July 26th, 2008 11:59 pm

Re: Snape and Lily: Joint Character Analysis v.3
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by wingardium713 (Post 5095534)
I'm not even sure that Snape ever did consider her a Mudblood (obviously, he knew she was a muggleborn, but there is a difference between thinking of somebody as a muggleborn and thinking of them as a Mudblood, IMO). I think that he was angry and hurt at that time and he just thought up the biggest insult he could think of at the time. Unfortunately, given what they had been arguing about, that was the worst thing he could call her. And that was that.

I agree, but from Lily's viewpoint this issue went much deeper because it wasn't just Snape - others were calling her Mudblood too. The thing is, while her friends and even acquaintances would tell her that it didn't matter and that those with a blood purist attitude were wrong, she'd still feel bad. Constantly being called a racial slur or hearing others of your birth called one can make a person very hurt and a little bitter. And the situation has another aspect as well. I had a friend who was called a racial slur and what made me angry was how it made my friend feel in addition to being angry at the person who said it. Being the person I was back then, I immediately punched the guy who said it in the nose and started a brawl - very wrong I know - but my point is, afterward, my friend was not only upset at having been called a racial slur, but also because he hadn't wanted a brawl to start as a result of it. He hated that it made us (his friends) upset as well, so I didn't repeat that behavior, but he still knew that it was making us as upset as it was him.

So Snape using the slur was not just horrible to Lily because he was saying it about her; as she pointed out, she was upset because he said it to others as well because they all felt just like her when he said it. Additionally, all the people who tried to make her feel better after she was called one (by Snape and others) and defended her like Harry and Ron did for Hermione, well I'd imagine she'd feel bad that they had to be involved also - and to make matters worse; Snape and his friends called the purebloods among those people Blood Traitors, just for holding Lily and other muggleborns as equals.

AliceLongbottom July 27th, 2008 1:24 am

Re: Snape and Lily: Joint Character Analysis v.3
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by wickedwickedboy (Post 5095547)
I agree, but from Lily's viewpoint this issue went much deeper because it wasn't just Snape - others were calling her Mudblood too. The thing is, while her friends and even acquaintances would tell her that it didn't matter and that those with a blood purist attitude were wrong, she'd still feel bad. Constantly being called a racial slur or hearing others of your birth called one can make a person very hurt and a little bitter. And the situation has another aspect as well. I had a friend who was called a racial slur and what made me angry was how it made my friend feel in addition to being angry at the person who said it. Being the person I was back then, I immediately punched the guy who said it in the nose and started a brawl - very wrong I know - but my point is, afterward, my friend was not only upset at having been called a racial slur, but also because he hadn't wanted a brawl to start as a result of it. He hated that it made us (his friends) upset as well, so I didn't repeat that behavior, but he still knew that it was making us as upset as it was him.

So Snape using the slur was not just horrible to Lily because he was saying it about her; as she pointed out, she was upset because he said it to others as well because they all felt just like her when he said it. Additionally, all the people who tried to make her feel better after she was called one (by Snape and others) and defended her like Harry and Ron did for Hermione, well I'd imagine she'd feel bad that they had to be involved also - and to make matters worse; Snape and his friends called the purebloods among those people Blood Traitors, just for holding Lily and other muggleborns as equals.

I do agree that the reason Lily was so angry with Snape was partially because she didn't like how he was using a racial slur against other people as well, and then using it at her just made it even worse. I personally think that one of the biggest reasons, besides him calling her something like that, is that I think Lily put most of her trust in Snape, because he was one of her best friends, and it was kind of like he didn't think about what he was doing, and threw away her trust in him that he really was a good person and would never hurt her. I think that Lily trusted Snape on a very high authority, and having a best friends call you something like that wasn't friendship in Lily's book.
As for Snape, I think that he didn't mean to call her something like that so insultingly. I think that his friends (if you can call them that- Death Eaters) had a bad influence on him, and that the word was so common for them in their everyday language that I don't think he realized what an impact it would have on Lily's and his friendship. I'm not trying to justify what he did, or say that he wasn't wrong in doing so, but I do think that it wasn't entirely his fault, even though he shouldn't have been hanging around with that kind of crowd. I think those were probably the only people he could find around him that would accept him in any way besides what Lily did for him, that he took the chance by being around them, and ended up making one of the not so great decisions in his life.

wickedwickedboy July 27th, 2008 5:03 am

Re: Snape and Lily: Joint Character Analysis v.3
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by AliceLongbottom (Post 5095606)
As for Snape, I think that he didn't mean to call her something like that so insultingly. I think that his friends (if you can call them that- Death Eaters) had a bad influence on him, and that the word was so common for them in their everyday language that I don't think he realized what an impact it would have on Lily's and his friendship. I'm not trying to justify what he did, or say that he wasn't wrong in doing so, but I do think that it wasn't entirely his fault,

A person makes a series of decisions and choices in life and they are completely responsible for them, in my judgment (unless they are medically determined to be mentally imparied and incapable of making a choice). Everyone is influenced, some people influence you more than others depending on the level of respect you have for them and like factors. But allowing someone to influence you is also a choice and so that is taken into consideration during one's deliberations that lead to his or her "choice". So I would respectfully disagree that Snape's calling Lily a Mudblood was not entirely his fault. I feel it could only be his alone because he made the choice to say it - and anything and everything he allowed to influence him into making that choice - was also a choice he made, imo.

The_Green_Woods July 27th, 2008 1:30 pm

Re: Snape and Lily: Joint Character Analysis v.3
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by wickedwickedboy (Post 5095443)
I respect your view, but in my opinion, that is a huge assumption. Snape may have told Mulciber and he told another Slytherin who told a Ravenclaw, who told a Gryffindor, who told Lily. James may have told Peter who let it slip to others and eventually Lily heard. All of that is as plausible as the guess you have made in my judgment - and there are 100's of other scenarios. I don't think we can make a definitive determination as to how Lily found out; rumors spread, that is normal in a school setting. It doesn't make sense for any of the Marauders to have spoken about it; they did not want to have people speculating on what was in the tunnel - it could expose their friend and more importantly, expose what their moonlight wanderings in the evenings were all about.

What you said could have happened, but if that had, then Remus being a werewolf would not have been news in Harry's thrid year IMO. The whole School would have come to know about the monster and that it was Remus and Snape revealing Remus to be a werewolf would hardly cause any problem IMO.

I think the secret was not known to any other than those who were involved in it plus the one extra friend (Peter) or perhaps, even he did not know about it.

Quote:

Originally Posted by wingardium713 (Post 5095534)
To quote Dumbledore from PS/SS "What happened down in the dungeons between you and Professor Quirrel is a complete secret, so, naturally, the whole school knows." That seemed an even better case for being able to keep the entire thing hush-hush. Apparently, only Dumbledore, Harry and Quirrel should have known. Quirrel was dead and Harry had just awoken from his 3 day coma. Things like that just seem to spread in a school.

Have answered it above. :)

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To me, I think that Lily was justified in dropping the friendship.
I really don't think Lily needs to justify ending a relationship or a friendship. The moment such things don't work, it is better to end it, rather than hurt oneself, the friend and the friendship. And I think Lily did just that. She ended the friendship because she no longer considered Snape her friend.

I don't think anyone can say she's wrong to do so; it is her right basically.

What I am trying to do is find a reason apart from what is given in the books, simply because I think it was a lot more complicated than what was given to me in canon. They had a friendship against all kinds of norn, really and then Lily broke it off; Snape loves her, and he continues to do so until he dies.

Lily breaks off her friendship very firmly, but then she never even tries to get a "best friend" not one we see in canon anyway. Sirius and Remus don;t talk of Lily's friends even, let alone Lily's best friends and she was not a recluse, or someone who was socially challenged that she could not make friends IMO.

That made me feel that for Lily too, Snape was irreplacable as Lily was irreplacable to Snape.

Only for Lily it was a friendship she could not replace, while for Snape it was a love plus friendship IMO.

So I am exploring the whys of just what went wrong apart from the obvious of Snape's friendships with Avery and Mulciber and his intention to join Voldmeort sometime in the future, simply because I think there was more IMO. :)

ComicBookWorm July 27th, 2008 2:20 pm

Re: Snape and Lily: Joint Character Analysis v.3
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by The_Green_Woods (Post 5095892)
What I am trying to do is find a reason apart from what is given in the books, simply because I think it was a lot more complicated than what was given to me in canon. They had a friendship against all kinds of norn, really and then Lily broke it off; Snape loves her, and he continues to do so until he dies.

Why should it be more complicated than was in canon. JKR had a story to tell and she told it in canon. She gave us reasons in canon. And just in case we didn't get it from canon, JKR has also told us in interviews, which do reaffirm what we got in canon. We were given perfectly good reasons for why Lily stopped being friends with Snape. He was bigoted and openly called others Mudblood. He was involved in Dark Magic. He was friends with Jr. DEs. He thought their evil behavior was just a laugh. He wanted to join Voldemort. How many reasons do we need?

It was only her good heart and warm nature that kept her friends long after he had traveled down his dark path.

Quote:

Originally Posted by The_Green_Woods (Post 5095892)
Lily breaks off her friendship very firmly, but then she never even tries to get a "best friend" not one we see in canon anyway. Sirius and Remus don;t talk of Lily's friends even, let alone Lily's best friends and she was not a recluse, or someone who was socially challenged that she could not make friends IMO. That made me feel that for Lily too, Snape was irreplacable as Lily was irreplacable to Snape. Only for Lily it was a friendship she could not replace, while for Snape it was a love plus friendship IMO

I don't follow the assumptions here. We weren't shown Lily's friends because they weren't important to the plot. The Marauders were. The seven book series focused on Harry, not the prior generation. We were only shown limited backstory that directly affected Harry or the story surrounding Harry. These weren't books about the prior generation, so we weren't shown that much.

I find it hard to understand why Snape was irreplaceable to Lily. We have no canon that even hints at that. He was a good friend, but that friendship deteriorated because of Snape's actions and poor choices. Friendships can fall apart for far less good reasons than Lily had.

IMO Snape became obsessed with Lily because he lost her and was essentially responsible for her subsequent death. I don't even think it was emotionally healthy for him, since men in their late 30s never carry torches for girls they had crushes on at age 15. Most men in their late 30s can't even remember the name of girls they had crushes on at age 15.

The_Green_Woods July 27th, 2008 3:27 pm

Re: Snape and Lily: Joint Character Analysis v.3
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by ComicBookWorm (Post 5095902)
It was only her good heart and warm nature that kept her friends long after he had traveled down his dark path.

For how long did you think Snape travelled the dark path and for how long do you think Lily was friends with Snape after he travelled the dark path?

Quote:

I find it hard to understand why Snape was irreplaceable to Lily.
I think it was because they had a friendship that was not unlike James and Sirius's IMO. Such friendships are hard to replace IMO.

ignisia July 27th, 2008 4:07 pm

Re: Snape and Lily: Joint Character Analysis v.3
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by CBW
It was only her good heart and warm nature that kept her friends long after he had traveled down his dark path.

I disagree. I believe it was his desperation and her patience that held things together, rather than some innate "gift" of Lily's.
And I would ask the same question as TGW. I highly doubt Snape went around calling people "Mudblood" in first year after all. :rotfl:

Quote:

Originally Posted by The_Green_Woods (Post 5095917)
I think it was because they had a friendship that was not unlike James and Sirius's IMO. Such friendships are hard to replace IMO.

I wouldn't really compare it to James and Sirius' friendship because those two were social and psychological equals and each seemed to value the friendship just as much as the other.

Snape grew up in a household devoid of care and, perhaps, love. He is going to cling rather desperately to anyone who accepts him. Lily, on the other hand, grew up with loving parents, other friends, and a sister. She was never alone, and apparently didn't understand the effect loneliness has on a person.

I think that was why, on Lily's side of the relationship, that friendship was easy to replace.

ComicBookWorm July 27th, 2008 4:39 pm

Re: Snape and Lily: Joint Character Analysis v.3
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by ignisia (Post 5095933)
And I would ask the same question as TGW. I highly doubt Snape went around calling people "Mudblood" in first year after all.

Well we'll never know, but he sure had enough insults for Petunia before they even started school.
Quote:

Originally Posted by The_Green_Woods (Post 5095917)
For how long did you think Snape travelled the dark path and for how long do you think Lily was friends with Snape after he travelled the dark path?

Well she said she had been making excuses for him for years. How can any of us know how long that was? But it certainly hadn't happened just that year or even the prior one since she used the plural.
Quote:

Originally Posted by ignisia (Post 5095933)
I disagree. I believe it was his desperation and her patience that held things together, rather than some innate "gift" of Lily's.

Harry got his good heart from Lily.

ignisia July 27th, 2008 4:42 pm

Re: Snape and Lily: Joint Character Analysis v.3
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by ComicBookWorm (Post 5095955)
Well we'll never know, but he sure had enough insults for Petunia before they even started school.

:huh: I only recall one...

ComicBookWorm July 27th, 2008 4:56 pm

Re: Snape and Lily: Joint Character Analysis v.3
 
There were the ones he didn't voice but hinted at by implying contempt like:
DH, TPT“Haven’t been spying,” said Snape, hot and uncomfortable and dirty-haired in the bright sunlight. “Wouldn’t spy on you, anyway,” he added spitefully, “you’re a Muggle.”
Though Petunia evidently did not understand the word, she could hardly mistake the tone.
<snip> There was a crack. A branch over Petunia’s head had fallen. Lily screamed. The branch caught Petunia on the shoulder, and she staggered backward and burst into tears.

<snip> “I don’t want to talk to you,” she said in a constricted voice.
“Why not?”
“Tuney h-hates me. Because we saw that letter from Dumbledore.”
“So what?”
She threw him a look of deep dislike.
“So she’s my sister!”

“She’s only a—” He caught himself quickly; Lily, too busy trying to wipe her eyes without being noticed, did not hear him.

Two times he used the word muggle in a contemptuous way and one beaning with a tree branch. And that's ignoring the fact that he disregarded Petunia's privacy and read her mail.


wickedwickedboy July 27th, 2008 5:05 pm

Re: Snape and Lily: Joint Character Analysis v.3
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by ignisia (Post 5095933)
I disagree. I believe it was his desperation and her patience that held things together, rather than some innate "gift" of Lily's.
And I would ask the same question as TGW. I highly doubt Snape went around calling people "Mudblood" in first year after all. :rotfl:

Actually, I feel this likely occurred quite early on. Snape was raised in an environment which allowed him to learn all about the wizard world and it is reasonable that he knew of the racial terms used toward those of various birthrights and ideologies (Mudblood, Blood Traitor, Muggle). The group he fell in with according to Sirius and shown via Lucius' pat on the shoulder at the sorting were certainly already using them, so like Draco, he could have begun exhibiting this behavior very soon after learning the ropes.

Quote:

I wouldn't really compare it to James and Sirius' friendship because those two were social and psychological equals and each seemed to value the friendship just as much as the other.

Snape grew up in a household devoid of care and, perhaps, love. He is going to cling rather desperately to anyone who accepts him. Lily, on the other hand, grew up with loving parents, other friends, and a sister. She was never alone, and apparently didn't understand the effect loneliness has on a person.

I think that was why, on Lily's side of the relationship, that friendship was easy to replace.
I agree. I feel his mum loved him in her way based on what we saw in the canon, but JKR said he was vulnerable and insecure and I feel he would attempt to cling to his friendship with Lily. I agree with everything stated before; Lily's good heart, warm nature, and patience together with Snape's desperation kept the relationship together. I would add that Snape likely had attributes we didn't see that Lily liked or she would have thrown up her hands much sooner (smart, funny or whatever). But Lily was popular, and James wasn't the only game in town, so she likely took advantage of that and dated and such which would give her a more well rounded existence I would think. James was popular also, so Lily wasn't the only fish in the sea for him; but I get the feeling that for Snape, Lily was the only duck in the pond and so his desperation could be arise not just from his background, but also from his school experience and a lack of available dates.

Quote:

Originally Posted by ComicBookWorm (Post 5095955)
Harry got his good heart from Lily.

I'd say from both his parents. But Lily definitely had a good heart in my view, based on what we saw in canon.

The_Green_Woods July 27th, 2008 5:19 pm

Re: Snape and Lily: Joint Character Analysis v.3
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by ignisia (Post 5095933)
I wouldn't really compare it to James and Sirius' friendship because those two were social and psychological equals and each seemed to value the friendship just as much as the other.

:tu:

But I think Snape and Lily too, valued their friendship just as much. Only Lily broke off when Snape started hanging out with Avery and Mulciber, while James held out even when Sirius almost killed Snape and Remus IMO.

Quote:

Snape grew up in a household devoid of care and, perhaps, love.
I think in this Snape and Sirius were equal.

Quote:

He is going to cling rather desperately to anyone who accepts him. Lily, on the other hand, grew up with loving parents, other friends, and a sister. She was never alone, and apparently didn't understand the effect loneliness has on a person.
Somehow I don't see Snape as a clinger. I think he has enormous depth when it comes to people he considers his; but somehow I cannot think of him as someone willing to do anything to keep a friendship. Then he would have obeyed Lily in everything and would have been the inferior partner in that friendship. I don't think so. I do think however, Snape gave in a lot to Lily, but I think that was because he loved her, as a friend initially and later romantically. I think he liked giving in to her.

But otherwise I think their friendship was pretty much equal, somehow, I don;t know why. :D

Quote:

Originally Posted by ComicBookWorm
Well we'll never know, but he sure had enough insults for Petunia before they even started school.
Snape bit off that word, so we'd never know if it was "muggle" or "mudblood" IMO. He was at that time trying to make friends with Lily and so he may have not wanted to even use the word "muggle" in front of her, because I think to Snape muggles were not nice people, because the muggle he had seen up close was not a very nice person; his father IMO.


Quote:

Well she said she had been making excuses for him for years. How can any of us know how long that was? But it certainly hadn't happened just that year or even the prior one since she used the plural.
This statement IMO is not about Snape and the dark arts. I think this was a statement, said in the heat of the moment and which was very true (though not in the sense you mean I think), and for which I hope Lily would feel for later.

"I have made excuses for you for years" is IMO a harsh statement from Lily. Why do I say so?

Because she was friends with Snape and she was making excuses for him for years to the Gryffindors. That shows to me that she wanted the friendship, she liked Snape, she could not replace him for the five years they were in School in different Houses which were also enemies and with James, Sirius and Mary and even others perhaps telling Lily that Snape was a greasy git and she should stop being friends with a slimy Slytherin. To them, I think she made excuses that he was really okay, he was not bad and would they all shut up please and things like that IMO.

Those kinds of excuses I think are natural when a small girl is stubborn enough to hold on to her friendship with a boy who was so far apart from her in every way possible and at the same time when her peers are pressurising her to stop being friendly because he was a Slytherin and he was an odd ball IMO.

Those kinds of excuses slowly in fifth year after the werewolf incident(when Lily fell for James) and when Snape started hanging out with Avery and Mulciber, may have turned to excuses for being friendly. That was a very short period after which Lily stopped being friends with Snape IMO.

Quote:

And that's ignoring the fact that he disregarded Petunia's privacy and read her mail.
Well Lily was on that one too IMO.

wickedwickedboy July 27th, 2008 5:26 pm

Re: Snape and Lily: Joint Character Analysis v.3
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by The_Green_Woods (Post 5095978)

Snape bit off that word, so we'd never know if it was "muggle" or "mudblood" IMO. He was at that time trying to make friends with Lily and so he may have not wanted to even use the word "muggle" in front of her, because I think to Snape muggles were not nice people, because the muggle he had seen up close was not a very nice person; his father IMO.

It was definitely going to be muggle; Petunia wasn't a Mudblood.


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